French would get pissed off if they do that. Hahahahaha.

Seem Damen has unveiling a new design in their website.




This post has been edited by darth5zaft: Oct 7 2021, 08:58 PM

I thought US only offered them F16
Then they go deal with France for Rafale.
Now US is considering selling the F15?





My guts feeling says it's one or the other.
Either F15 or Rafale

They are modernizing their military afterall, too many different types of jet wouldn't help them achieve that.

Binatang apa tu?

Well the design were fairly new i guess. It's wasn't in their website 6 month ago if not mistaken

Kinda disappointed they didn't put the sea axe design upfront.

Well, don't overestimated them then 😉

While our politikus are disinterest their politicians give impression that's they going to get everything under the sun. Doubt they going to get 30ffm on top of fremm nor Rafale on top of f15. It would likely be one or the other, rather than both.

If our politikus do the same thing, they would say we going to buy the fassmer on top of Damen on top of swiftship or we going to get yak130 on top of m346 on top of T7 on so on and on.

They also hasn't finalized funding which requires their gov to take a long term debt on top of increasing defense spending while our RMK12 had just been approved by parliment. No debt financing nor increase in defense spending required. Officially approved acquisition for us in the next 5 years is as per H20

Fighter Lead=In Trainer (FLIT) – Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MRCA), Maritime Patrol Aircraft (MPA), Long Range Air Defence Radar, Medium-Range Air Defence Missile System (MERAD), Medium Altitude Long Endurance Unmanned Aerial System (MALE-UAS) dan Helikopter Utiliti, LMS, MRSS.

https://defencesecurityasia.com/lapan-buah-...-mrss-dan-ngpv/


Not to mention DWP had specified acquisition for the next 10 years, while CG, RMN & AF has a plan until 2040/2050/2055. So with most of the things to acquired and the timeline of acquisition already made public, what else can our politikus talk about?

The fact it's public knowledge and them politikus has no power to acquired new stuff in out of thin air nor took stuff out or change timelines also kinda explain their disinterest in talking about it. Not to mention the public mode is for them politikus to stay out of military affairs.

So there's really nothing to be jelous about. it's good that they are increasing their defense priorities but it's not like we are taking defense lightly.

Well this sigma 7311 design is by Damen standard a FAC depicted being at 1000 tons.

It probably more or less a militarized version of Stan patrol 6811. One of the 2 design that are reported being pitch by Damen for 2LMS.

No u said sigma & other Damen ship are different platforms with no commonalities. I were the one who say the difference is mostly in it exterior design. A U shape hull help with economic of operation at the cost of increase radar cross section and a beef up equipment onboard.



A waste of money that we don't have really.

It's a limited production jet which makes the cost twice that of Real US jet, but it still kinda US jet with all the limitations of US jet compared to something like rafales, It has limited user which limit future upgradability options. It looks like Raptor but without radar absorbing composite body and internal pod it has the RCS higher that then a Gripen and SK themselves are scared of china, which make the risk of them not sending parts during heighten tension higher. At the end it's really just a glorified hornet build with tech from the 70s.

Uncle Sam ain't stupid. They been burnt by Israel who sell US tech to china B4. But for Korean That's is the cost of self sufficiency and that's the price Korean pays to not be a strong US allies and want to have independent foreign policy.

This post has been edited by darth5zaft: Oct 8 2021, 03:20 PM

In my opinion,

ID or at the very least Probowo ain't stupid to continue with large military footprint doctrines. They are well versed in western doctrines of few platforms to acquired a technological edge. They afterall spend as much as SG but have no power projection capabilities compared to SG.

So keeping large military footprint doesn't do ID any favors at all. It just something they do before because terpaksa rather than they wanted too. ID back then has bad record in human right abuse. But most of their human right abuse stem from their inability to provide wealth to their citizens beyond java.

Bebas aktif is just a nice name to we are scared of sanction to secure own country create an almost juche situation that spill to their economic situation. The lack of intergration with other countries, export & FDI created a unstable economic environment & rupiah values resulting in the lack of ability to acquired debt and thus no ability to develop their economy & infrastructure. Which created a pocket of dissented that seek seperation in the first place.

I don't expect modernization in TNI-AD because it's dual roles is defense & protecting the 'intergtity' of kesatuan Indonesia. They can't afford it for as long as the other islands aren't develop and wealthy. But for AF & navy they can and should modernize.

ID objective is to take advantage of US desperation to counter china to strengthen themselves and so by 2040 they can play abang besar kawasan. US want ID help to counter china but not to overdo it and allowed ID to be a abang besar kawasan without any kind of a leashes to tie ID.

ID afterall don't have much beef with china beyond some fisherman. They can just buat Don't know like Thai or SG is they wanted. Them countering china not for just self defense but more towards milking the adversery conflict to their advantage

So they do want to move away from bebas aktif doctrines that comes at the expenses of their economy & military might. Remember the difference in MY & ID aerospace industry size? They can be bigger than us if they choose not to be bebas aktif anymore. They like us are seeking US relationship not just for defense but more so for economic purposes.

the rafales deal is there because US refuse to sell them f15 initial. F16 has limited range which make it less than ideal for operation in ID. They would need to buy a lot of F16 to cover their entire country, but they can reduce the number of jet they need by using F15 or Rafale or keep the same number of jet and be very powerful. US are reluctant to sell them F15 because of it range & technology advantage mean it can threaten Aussie & SG as well. Off course ID would ceases to be a threats when they join in and intergrated their economy & defense platforms to their neighbors & western powers. Which is what ID want to do probably.

Buying both F15 & Rafale doesn't help ID to be more powerful, it make them weak due to the high cost of supporting multiple platforms and buying multiple missiles something that our AF has experience before. If they wanted to be strong they just choose 1 over the other like what we currently plans to do. If they ddidn't .& still acquired both then it mean they don't want to be as strong as possible. Which is good for us ( & SG too) in economics terms i guess.

I think you know it already

KFX is exactly what people buy if they don't wish to pew pew china.

MY won't be ready forever if the same politicians are in power over & over.

China biggest advantage is in bribing & extortion of a country leader. The leader then would choose to buy a stupid equipment and would force media silence on Chinese intrusion to keep china name Cantek on the eyes of rakyat marhaen.

Something they can't do if we keep on changing leader.

Already said over & over m346 is exactly what politikus would buy if they wish to appear non threatening to china.

Corvette is a whole lot better then FAC isn't it? At the end it was RMN that request 8 missiles Corvette 5 years ago.

This post has been edited by darth5zaft: Oct 8 2021, 05:57 PM

Korea has strong economic reliances with china & china abilities to keep a leash on best korea secure their security. They go as far as rejecting to enter the quad nor enter CPTPP. A known US sponsored platforms to encircle china influence.

Their military industrial complex in recent years show the same priorities. A self sufficiency in defense to reduce dependency on US. So they are in better position to choose rather than blindly follow US wishes & Fancy even at the cost of technogical advantage. Korean like sweeden are concentrate on their land defense, because if adversery comes it would comes from there. Their AF & navy is less important thus due to their adversery having lack of technogical advantage thus both service has to play dual role not just to provide defense but also the need to do national service to feed the industry.

Rather than Korean might as well bought Russian. You could be confident that parts would arrive from Russia in time of emergency. Russia are not dependent on china. They are not even Allies and do fight proxy war against one another in Vietnam & India before. Korean however maybe less willing to offended china. korean supplies of parts to Chinese adversery to counter china during wartime can and would be seen by china as an act of war. China afterall are somewhat a co sponsored of Korean wealth & security.

An also probably the reason why the Aussie ditch the french subs. France like Korean aren't that willing to offended china. They don't have any beef with them. Mica maybe as effective as ESSM. But in time of need, the continues supplies of MICA may dry up while for ESSM, not only supplies are more secure, we may get more than what we ordered.

This post has been edited by darth5zaft: Oct 8 2021, 06:27 PM

Because super hornet is a stopgap measure for USN and would be replaced by NGAD by 2030s at the same time we would acquired the MRCA?

At the time we would be shopping for MRCA. There's would be F35A, F35B,NGAD & tempest available.

Them pew pew china themselves is different from them helping others pew pew china. Helping others pew pew china is detrimental to their own security & wealth. So the likelihood of them doing so are low.




Russia is playing for Russia 😉

Sino US conflict would keep US out of northern European plain allowing them further inroads west & china out of the Stan securing Russia underbellies. India desire is for Chinese to be occupied with their eastern front and away from the Himalayas.

In an event of conflict with china, India & Vietnam can be sure of supplies from Russia. US themselves are thinking of exempting India & Vietnam from CAATSA.





Not really.

Germany want to preserve the current status quo of US being a security providers for EU against Russia, while France seek to replace Germany roles as EU big boss and dream of the good days of nepolean times instead of EU continue being a 4th Reich. Germany future population decline further fuel their ambitious. They talk about grand plans of European united army & European strategic autonomy which is throwing away the current status quo & EU being a super power themselves.

Off course doing what France wanted would agitated the Russian, something other EU members didn't want, but have no choice if US further withdraw to concentrate on china. Middle eastern are fucked. That's why they are increasing EU weapon purchase to Curry favor

Which mean they are all more willing to close an eyes if you use it to pew pew your own citizens or neighbor. As long as you do it quickly before SJW mobilize and they can pretend to be sadden & imposed sanction to make them look good doing action to preserve human right. US weapon can't at all be use for it. A reserve abilities that SG & ID may want for their navy & AF. We don't.

Our AF & navy are busy with china, and we are at a disadvantage in term of resources. it would be good to get it from a provider that really really really want to screw china aka the anglo Saxons & to a lesser extent niponjin. Afterwards EU, then indian, if not CAATSA Russian, only afterwards Korean & turkey.

TD can continue procuring EU, Korean or turkey weaponry. Anglo saxon TD are too preoccupied with heavy machinery for prolonged multi decades fight something we don't need.We need something like the french have, a equipment meant for quick response in, do the jobs then get out. TD are not there to fight china but more to secure us against non state actors & possible neighbors intrusion like they always do.

Off course a Shenzhen like fully urbanized area in south Johor, a mini shengen zone in the 3 of the choke point in the North and further economic intergration with ID,VN & PH with RORO can help to further cool down conflict with our neighbors by creating a feeling of kekitaan.

So CG mothership would need to be a RoRO similar to RN littoral strike ship concept to acquired RORO building capabilities. That CG LSS can work together with RMN supplies ship, MRSS & a frigate to follow RN littoral strike group concept.

I have no idea why anyone wants to be turkey. They fucked up their economy & currency royally and they are no nearer to their objective with eragon pivot to bebas aktif from previous NATO tools. Yes Im classifying bebas aktif is just another independence foreign policy something that happened under mahathirism as well. India is another country that's really isn't going anyway fast enough.

Technically there's no human right issues in not just Israel but Saudi as well. Anyone who is useful, they would close an eyes to it. Technically if ID is a good tools they would close an eyes on it just like Sinkie & Arab gulf countries with their slave laborer issues. Or how slavery & human trafficking issues in MY are quickly ignored.

ID economy & infrastructure pick up recently particularly under Jokowi but it come from the letting go some element of bebas aktif. Mostly fuel by debt. But abilities to acquired more debt depends on the stability of rupiah which depends on western being friendly and invest more FDI and not raising concerned or whatever which would throw them back to square 1.

Well let not go too nationalistic and avoid the issues. ID army aren't as strong as they would, their defense budget is as big as SG but it seem most are ties to personel count at the expenses of equipment
nor their economic development are dispensared. Ignoring those issues on nationalistic ground won't do ID any good. It is afterall the same issue Jokowi trying to solve which earned him his popularity.

But if you want to continue on as always then don't vote for Probowo next presidential election.If they choose Probowo afterwards & allowed probowo defense is an investment program now. It's pretty much about creating an economic of scale during Jokowi which he himself would double down making it's imposibaru for the next guy to turn cause from western dependency.


Logistical issues is a big problem. Jet are expensive, but missiles are far more expensive. At the end even if one buy European weapon the ability to use it continuously to do things US don't like is limited. EU would take the same US stand as both play out the human right issues. So outside of few instances, there's really no tangible benefits there. That not the efficient way to remove a future threats of embargoes.

Arab do acquired both flagship EU & US jet. but it mostly due to possible US future withdrawal from the middle east and thus they are currying favor with EU for future protection. What can ID achieve from getting both Rafale & F15?

The only thing I see if they acquired both Rafale & F15, then it mean they won't want to accelerate their military strength & economic development to it's maximum potential level continuing with susilo doctine of careful progress to balance internal stability at the cost of economic progress which would giving us a good 30 years of leaptime to adjust. If they acquired either Rafale or F15 then it mean they really wanted to leapfrog and accelerate economic development & military strength.

For me as her neighbor, what they choose is their rights. All we can do is adjust our planning & policy depending on which route they took.

But Chinese A2/AD are particularly strong due to SK location. And CCP are knowns to play temper tantrums when SK place their missiles.

You are correct in there's no long term benefits,but for now it seem they are undecided on how to proceed.




Don't know, the whole wolf worrior diplomacy & facism phase they going through is pretty stupid IMHO. I believe in LKY assessment that there's nothing to gain playing superpower & challenge the US prematurely. But they did anyway. Smelling blood even if CCP backed down now, US won't let them.

India is a different story. Previously they have been lukewarm to the US until the Osama fiasco so now the US still regards them cautiously, but yes we will probably see gradual warming up.
Opposite mapren



They still want anglo Saxon help. Technically AUKUS do help them a bit to push for the whole European autonomy things. And they still willing to help the Anglo Saxon.



News for me really. Guess German is like PN belakang main, while france keep throwing all their card out to public like PH.

Germany had always play DaGe to EU, a lot of people talk about France power play to take the position from Germany but not so much about how Germany going to preserve leadership of their 4th Reich. I was thinking it's impossible for Germany to lie down and let France get it way, they afterall do try to recruit turkey & the Balkans B4 to reduce french influence.

Guess UK had gone back to their splendid isolation then. Where the poke around EU from the outside rather than together gather inside.

So would Germany want to play 4th Reich and make EU a superpowers themselves?


Well Anglo are the only one anti Chinese group around anyway other then niponjin. Niponjin don't really sell weapons. Would be great if they did. Would really love to see a Gundam or Macross once B4 I die.🤣. So outside of them Anglo Saxon everyone else is at least neutral, even the Russian. So it's not a high bar to pass.

Next i would say France. french army stuff are really cheap & good. Their helo are good as well. It's more design for quick offensive rather than defensive. Just don't buy their ship & jet which is way overpriced. They are neutral but they are willing to play the enemies of your enemies. Just don't called them to the front line that's all.🤣

Afterwards Italy, pretty good at doing high tech stuff on a budget. Just like 5heir car that Italian really fail at the reliability of components which really fucked the sustain cost. Pretty good suppliers of nitch platforms where technological edge is key rather than reliability.

Don't think they take their defense seriously, it's mostly there to tongkat their industry. Mostly produce stuff other people may want. Do you want a cheap, f35A capable mini carrier? We have one. Do you can't afford Poseidon but still want something good? Here's the ATR. You want to hunt tanks? Well we have a fast tank hunter with 120mm cannon. Do you want to fight Chinese navy on a budget? Here's a FREMM. We also have tempest in the works if you want a dual engine F35A.

Korean are ok i guess they know a thing or two about reliability, just like their car, cutting edge high tech is not something they good at, (because it's not reliable) & their products are cheap. It's just soon after you realize why it's cheap. They use aluminum instead of steel on APC for instance. Korean product always sounds like a good buy at 1st, but then you realize you really get what your money worth not more.

Korean, like turkey & sweeden do play around with their navy & AF acquisition a bit. Technically we also did B4. Don't really buy their whole Gripen is enough to counter Sukhoi marketing. At the end they changed their AF strategies because of Gripen. The hornet can land on a road just fine.the Korean build the dokdo then don't really know what to do with it. Now they are building mini carrier strike group rather than a far more important littoral strike group. Seem the whole purpose of Korean navy is product placement & demonstration.

But they all live next to a major land power and so their land equipment aren't main- main. It's reliable,fast & cheap because they all wanted to Field it in numbers, thus the reliability and win some war. Would have preferred more swedish stuff but understably they are small country without much economic & political capital to make such purchase worthwhile. Would love to see CV90 as Adnan replacement in the next 10 years. But the most likely candidates are FNSS, lynx & manwha.

Guess we'll see. But I personally won't bet on that horse particularly since we are really spoiled of horses to bet on.




I think it's remote dream. They Assume the anglo Saxon cannot change ship fast since they got some of them hooked on their money. But them anglo Saxon by history had always good at rapid change of course. And now they reep what they sow.

Anglo Saxon as global time correctly predicted are a wolf pack. They going recruite new wolf to together gather encircle their prey , and wait for the defensive prey to make a mistake and bite. They are really good at blowing death by a thousand bites.

To be fair, trump & covid aren't really something one would took into account while drafting a foreign policies. It's really should be classified as an act of God. Guess CCP don't have the mandate of heaven afterall.




Pakistan is a problem probably because they are a new country that didn't inherited the British civil service culture which is based in new Delhi then. You could say the same with ID as well. They need to learn to be a country due to a lack of inheritance from the former administration.

India is pretty easy country to predict. Just another MY from pecah perintah, excessive nationalsm, can't choose between protectionism & capitalism, love hate nostalgia about Brits, sponsored non state actors that bite them back in the ass & cozying up to US to keep CCP away from their front yards.



Follow their news, but not that religiously. A lot of face saving bahasa berlapik going around, and they move really really slow.too much backroom politics that make even European felt detached from their governance.







Really love anglo Saxon news more, they are really straight forward in what they trying to achieve. The UK the best, they make their whole self servings, self interest policy sounds like they doing everyone else a favor🤣



Waiting religiously for it to cum. Can't wait for the second Cummings of Yamamoto, an overly over the top mind blowing, WTF is that thing they going to come up with.




Cuba citer, cuba citer

Heard Germany too are getting frustrated.
Well France is France, basically a personafication of Vegeta. Overly proud with a can do attitude which they would lose quickly then get extremely butthurt. But always got their ass saves by the anglo Saxon(Goku) and are extremely jelous at the same time grateful for them Anglo Saxon.



They are doing another round of scrambled to Africa if not mistaken, but avoid all the country french think is their plaything.

Don't expect much from Italian engineering,.their car & bike are fast but are also good at getting into flames. Their highway & bridges are impressive but are also falling apart. Good enough for poor man tips of the spears.

Personally doubt they are diam diam berisi. More like another MY & Belgians who are too divided internally thus can't decide on anything. They are a reliable partner because they like to be told what to do, because they can't decide anything themselves

Technically they do. But again, we got better horse for us to ride on.
What They really missing now a unique selling proposition,

technically they got one B4, american jet without all the American baggage but american don't let them play those game, they learn it the hard way similar to the Swedish.

Seem currently they try to sell NATO compatible anti CAATSA essentially a rebadged Russian stuff. But if that concept turn to be a success, India is in a better position to sells it.

They selling a lot of ship and militarized some of it. But it's no different to what Damen is doing. Damen couldn't fight Korean on cost. So they allowed local CKD for local to be banggalah and a good suits of intergrated high keras nexter naval equipment. Nexter is essential snapdragon and manwha is the exenos. Even if exanos are cheap, but selling to gov whose not price sensitive means people still want a snapdragon. For now, they getting a lot of idiots pissed off as they wanted to pay a ship at exonos inside price but expect a snapdragon. 2 customer get frustrated not getting snapdragon turn their ship into a OPV which hurt their image a lot.

They are still on a very early stage like Samsung with android gingerbread b4. They just thrown everything to the wall to see which one stick. Eventually they would find a unique selling proposition & eventually it would be some really good shit. But for now, for us, let just avoid getting hurt and just get an iphone instead.

So our acquisition strategy priorities should go to
1) anglo Saxon who really eager wants to fight CCP
2) EU that's at least pretend to wanna fight CCP
3) country that dislike CCP but didn't want to comes out of the closet saying it out loud.
4) buy weapon from those who neutral & not in CCP pocket.
5)buy weapon from those who neutral but reliance on CCP
6) don't be stupid & buy from CCP themselves or their goons?

Personally don't think we would buy from turkey anymore. They are getting a splendid isolation treatment from almost everyone except for Kuwait & Qatar while Russia is slowly & surely going to get in and backfuck them, their economy are down the drains. Nor any desire to acquired Korean, because again they ain't proud of who they are and hiding in the closet. Unless their deals is too sweet for us to pass over.

That's why they won't.

Military are a diplomatic & trade tools.

The bigger stick you have the more strong you are in diplomatic negotiations. Nuclear deterrence mean NO one stupid enough to attack their homeland so they start looking outward & fight for influence overseas.

Small country can be a failed state if they choose independence foreign policy alone, it's good be parts of a grander coalition of non alliances like NAM or join one of the superpower and be a vessels state like NATO.

Queen Elizabeth tak mai ke?