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 Military Thread V28

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KLthinker91
post Sep 3 2021, 01:29 AM

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From: Cherasboy
QUOTE(alexz23 @ Sep 3 2021, 01:22 AM)

Yes china will still send coast guard ships regularly, but they won't go all the way to steal our oil platforms or arrest malaysian fishermen's fishing just a few miles outside bintulu.

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You think they won't?

Have you heard of the Icelandic Cod Wars?

China can build 10 "fishing boats" for every 1 MMEA boat we can field, and then use those 10 "fishing boats" to ram our MMEA boat and send it back to dock for repairs. And no way we can spend enough to build enough boats to replace them. Shortly then the sea will be empty of any of our ships.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod_Wars

They can also impound and seize any of our fishing boats if they want to, under the pretext of guarding "their" EEZ.

Realistically there is nothing we can do, other than ask for big brother protection. But then we are too proud to do that...
KLthinker91
post Sep 3 2021, 02:56 AM

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QUOTE(alexz23 @ Sep 3 2021, 02:19 AM)

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>thinks China gives a fark for UNCLOS tongue.gif
KLthinker91
post Sep 6 2021, 06:31 PM

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QUOTE(alexz23 @ Sep 6 2021, 06:29 PM)
Something out of the box for deterrence and second strike capability

https://therestlesstechnophile.com/2021/02/...sistent-strike/
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Brader

How much money do you expect to spend, and how much deterrence do you think you can buy?
KLthinker91
post Sep 6 2021, 10:17 PM

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QUOTE(alexz23 @ Sep 6 2021, 07:23 PM)
The premise of unmanned submarine strike capability is to have underwater strike capability by missiles such as NSM that can strike naval and land targets at a cost lower than a conventional manned submarine like our scorpenes.

it would be good for a large UUV with similar range to the scorpenes while carrying 2x the missiles. something at a cost like 1/3 of rhe scorpenes. So rather than 3 additional scorpene, we could get 9 large attack UUVs.

unmanned tech is really pushing down costs. for example the latest Kratos UCAV just cost around 2-3 million dollars each.
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One EW jammer and all the drones will fall out of the sky

But even so. How much are you spending, how many are you buying, what do you expect them to be able to do? Give me numbers not ideas.
KLthinker91
post Sep 7 2021, 08:46 AM

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QUOTE(darth5zaft @ Sep 7 2021, 07:22 AM)

Since it's capable of BVR out of the box with 7 or something jet being free.
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It's not.

M346fa needs the same modifications to make it BVR capable that a T50 would to become a Fa50.

QUOTE(alexz23 @ Sep 6 2021, 11:43 PM)
I have answered you (which i was talking about unmanned submarines) and i have given the numbers if you understand what i am writing about (about the submarine UUV)
You're insane if you think you can build a UUV 1/3rd the size of a Scorpene for 3 million dollars.

And what's the use of 9 UUVs? Who do you intend them to fight, and what are their forces?

QUOTE
This will give normal missiles with 300km range able to be given say 2000km range. Enabling nations like malaysia without ballistic missiles a serious long range strike capability
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Not according to laws of physics. Fuel, dude.
KLthinker91
post Sep 7 2021, 09:34 AM

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QUOTE(alexz23 @ Sep 7 2021, 09:32 AM)
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UCAV numbers apply direct to UUV concept lmao

QUOTE(alexz23 @ Sep 7 2021, 09:32 AM)

As stealthy missile carriers for second strike capability. something that can lurk underwater and launch a salvo of NSM missiles to the enemy naval base for example.

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Whose naval base? How many missiles? To accomplish what?

NSM is NSM, Taurus is Taurus, why you say one missile but cite performance of another rclxub.gif

This post has been edited by KLthinker91: Sep 7 2021, 09:36 AM
KLthinker91
post Sep 7 2021, 10:10 AM

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QUOTE(alexz23 @ Sep 7 2021, 09:49 AM)
whose naval base? anyone that attacks us first and steal our EEZ. If china, then it would be Sanya on Hainan

https://thediplomat.com/2017/03/chinas-most...-military-base/

to accomplish a deterrence capability. An essential element in successful deterrence is a degree of uncertainty on the part of a would-be aggressor as to whether the target power, although attacked and badly damaged, will nonetheless retaliate—even at the risk of suffering further, crippling damage in a second attack.
NSM is for the unmanned underwater vehicle UUV.

Taurus is on the unmanned combat aerial vehicle UCAV.

because you say it is impossible for 2000km when i was talking about UCAV.
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Is it adequate deterrence?

UCAV of 1700km range that is unjammable and can send in a cruise missile with impunity? Lmao such a drone doesn't exist yet and you think WE can do it and without the other superpowers developing a counter?

Who on earth do you think we are lol rolleyes.gif
KLthinker91
post Sep 7 2021, 02:58 PM

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QUOTE(darth5zaft @ Sep 7 2021, 02:51 PM)
Don't know.
Leonardo the one that claim theirs are BVR capable
Use the same radar as Gripen C, can use Rafale targeting pod.
And unlike KAI, already have a finish product that's already being sold to Turkmenistan.

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FA-50 fighter variants have been delivered to Philippines, Iraq and ROKAF itself which are AMRAAM-capable. Koreans even considered adding cruise missiles. The ELM2032 is well capable of adding most any Israeli missile, but haven't integrated only.
KLthinker91
post Sep 7 2021, 03:22 PM

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QUOTE(alexz23 @ Sep 7 2021, 03:16 PM)

Tell me what major wars does american drones managed to kill numerous tanks, artillery, missile launchers worth 1 billion dollars?

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Just because US drones have been hunting Toyotas doesn't mean they are weak

Also, tell me: Who will win, fleet of drones or one jammy boi?

user posted image

QUOTE(darth5zaft @ Sep 7 2021, 03:18 PM)
Like i said. It's was the Korean news that's claim FA50 is not the Frontline contender since it doesn't have BVR capabilities.

As far as I know most news still report that the FA50 is still incapable of shooting amraam.
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News got different quality lol
KLthinker91
post Sep 7 2021, 03:48 PM

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QUOTE(alexz23 @ Sep 7 2021, 03:25 PM)
So you feel UAVs are useless?

What is your gameplan if malaysia is to go for your jammer plans?
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At the moment, yes they are, particularly in the way you are proposing them to be used

The superpowers are developing Loyal Wingman drones and not fully autonomous drones for a reason

The Bayraktars excelled in a permissive environment where any MQ-9 or F-16 or A-10 could have done the same job really, as there wasn't much of a sophisticated air defence network in Azerbaijan

Nobody reads about the part where the entire Turkish drone fleet was instantly incapacitated once Russia provided jamming support in Syria

This post has been edited by KLthinker91: Sep 7 2021, 03:48 PM
KLthinker91
post Sep 7 2021, 04:13 PM

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QUOTE(alexz23 @ Sep 7 2021, 03:52 PM)
The most important role for UAVs is not killing, but situational awareness and information gathering.

Knowing the pattern of life of your area of operations.

knowing all the electronic emissions of the area.

gathering AIS informations of ships.

It would be useful above james shoal as is on the sulu seas.
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I agree, but prior to this, you were talking about using armed drones for long range second strike and maritime deterrence lol

Actually the most critical "defence" agenda we have right now is to focus on the economy, tighten our anti-piracy/border patrol, and maintain surveillance on the shoals in support of our EEZ claim

We do not have the resources at the moment to do more
KLthinker91
post Sep 7 2021, 04:22 PM

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QUOTE(darth5zaft @ Sep 7 2021, 04:18 PM)
Well that's the only source that's free to read and freely available.

Like i said, am not really a military junkie.
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https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/def...50-golden-eagle

Fyi

Note that the hardware requirements are all fulfilled. It's the software.
KLthinker91
post Sep 7 2021, 06:30 PM

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Lmao

I know whose dupe that is already
KLthinker91
post Sep 9 2021, 09:33 PM

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QUOTE(Lampuajaib @ Sep 9 2021, 05:34 PM)
Comparing M346 AJT to FA-50 is not apple to apple
It should be conparing M346FA to FA-50
chart says indicative of type aka "contoh" je

in that category 2 are M346 AJT and T-50

in category 3 are M346 FA and FA-50 if both types are upgraded to full spec

QUOTE
Btw, 90% is about air policing not combat capability.
Do you want to say FA-50 only 10% less capability than F-35 too?
Read carefully lah....
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again, chart says specifically for Air Policing role

tak kira other roles

QUOTE(alexz23 @ Sep 9 2021, 03:55 PM)
Until when we are going to sacrifice malaysian military strength for other irrelevant needs? until we lost our independence again?

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lebih baik kau tanya sampai bila baru nak stop songlap, tu isu lagi kritikal daripada defence sahaja, kerana ia problem utama kat akar umbi segala2nya

This post has been edited by KLthinker91: Sep 9 2021, 09:35 PM
KLthinker91
post Sep 9 2021, 09:41 PM

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QUOTE(patt_sue @ Sep 9 2021, 01:39 PM)
just buy a new build of hawk...
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there are less and less Hawk users, we will be the last users if we do that and that means higher support costs towards the end of its life

even the RAF isn't buying any more Hawks, most likely they will follow US T-X in future or whatever new fancy AJT can feature drone training kit
KLthinker91
post Sep 10 2021, 07:25 AM

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QUOTE(Lampuajaib @ Sep 10 2021, 07:20 AM)
Is it worth to buy it?
Why not buy the real MRCA?

...

Why Korea need to develop KFX if their plan to upgrade FA-50 is so great?
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define "the real MRCA". KFX?

You're asking why Korea need twin-engine less-observable medium fighter if their plan to upgrade single-engine light fighter is so great... um, maybe because they want 2 different planes for 2 different roles?
KLthinker91
post Sep 10 2021, 08:22 AM

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QUOTE(Lampuajaib @ Sep 10 2021, 07:29 AM)
Do you even know what MRCA definition is?
The word combat should get you into something

Like you said, then the existing FA-50 wont fit the need with all the upgrade plan they have
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Yes, I do know what "Multi Role Combat Aircraft" stands for; let me ask, do you know what is "high low mix"?

Air Forces don't all operate the same single type of aircraft for many reasons. FA-50 is FA-50; KFX is KFX; both do different things.

QUOTE(darth5zaft @ Sep 10 2021, 08:05 AM)
That's why i said typical prices.

Poland purchase additional m346 at 38 mil each but RAAF bought the full package for 35 mil each
And those are AJT prices. Not the full-spec combat aircraft.

QUOTE
If it's possible there's no need for Philippines to purchase either the F16V or Gripen C and just upgrade their FA50 software considering the limited budget they have.

Philippines may have other reasons for buying F-16V.

QUOTE
the possibility that US is the one blocking amraam integration with FA50 to safeguard their jet sales is quite high. It is in US interest afterall everyone is using their avionics and thus they have a say in what each country would, could & should do. Doubt the US going to sit idle and let the Korean backdoors them and get rich by delivering freedom of choice to others country.

The US will certainly have the final say but there's no reason for them to block AMRAAM integration, it is also carried by the Swedish Gripen and British Harrier. Plus it is dated and production will stop within the decade.

This post has been edited by KLthinker91: Sep 10 2021, 08:32 AM
KLthinker91
post Sep 10 2021, 11:18 AM

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QUOTE(alexz23 @ Sep 10 2021, 11:04 AM)

TUDM can do the same, FA-50 as the LCA to replace our hawks and MB-339, and take up MiG-29 tasks, while the KFX as the MMRCA to replace our Hornets.

...

Actually currently the Phillipine government for now wants to buy the Gripen C because it is cheaper than the F-16V, which is unfortunate as there is very little difference in performance between FA-50 and Gripen C, especially compared to the upgraded FA-50 Block 20.

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We don't know what pinoys want. Could also be a way of patching up US-Phils relations.

TUDM as darth5zaft pointed out has a realistic LCA budget of about Usd 1.5 billion. If we want something in the region of 30 aircraft, that means we are only ever going to buy the FA-50 Blk 20 or M346FA or equivalent class of aircraft, period.
KLthinker91
post Sep 10 2021, 12:11 PM

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QUOTE(alexz23 @ Sep 10 2021, 11:46 AM)
Which is why I have asked, for the same amount of money, can we afford not to get the FA-50 block 20?
12 TA-50 at 30 million dollars each = 360 million dollars

24 FA-50 at 35 million dollars each = 840 million dollars

total of 1.2 billion dollars.
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more likely to be ~50 million per block 20 plus few millions more for pods etc. and you have forgotten that we also need to replace the existing trainers

so, it's more something like:

12 LIFT x 30 million to support Su30/F18 force = 360 million

18 FA/50 x 50 million = 900 million

8 LIFT x 30 million to support FA50 force = 240 million

total = 1.5 billion
KLthinker91
post Sep 10 2021, 01:04 PM

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QUOTE(alexz23 @ Sep 10 2021, 12:30 PM)

Currently we have 5 Hawk 2 seater + 7 unoperational MB-339CM 2 seater.

12 TA-50 is enough.

Our LCA/LIFT requirement is for 36 aircraft in total, so 35 million per aircraft is possible.

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we can assume the Hawks and Mb339s are out of the picture by the time the T-50s arrive

12 T-50s can't support 18 SU-30s, 8 F-18s, and 24 FA-50s. I'm not aware that the new T-50 can generate more training hours than other AJTs.

35 million won't get you Block 20 as it is the current price of non-Block 20. You must assume the additional e.g. software upgrades will be included in the future price tag.

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