New or used?

Thought the manufacturing line had already close and it's going to be phase out by 2030?

^^
Well, the Thai whoops Chinese ass mostly thanks to their superior jet technology.

If you say it like that then Boeing is the obvious choice lah. Leonardo is a distance 2nd since they somewhat manufacture ATR72.

Korean currently has no commercial plane products. So on top of subsidizing the R&D cost for FA50 block 20, they would need to offer manufacturing offset so we would manufacture some parts of their jet components. But if they are willing. Then great.

The used FA18 can be used for the next 10 years before a competent arms version of T7 is develop.

Thought 1 of the most interesting aspect of KAI is the usage of common fuselage for all Korean helicopter need. The surion seem a bit too big, but something like H160M seems good enough



This post has been edited by darth5zaft: Sep 10 2021, 03:18 PM

Even without sanction those Korean companies would still leave china.

China is no longer a developing countries, she like MY is more of an upper medium income country. They mostly left china due to the labor cost & regulations had increase significantly. Moving to MY is a no starter since we also has the same limitations of china. Korean offset are gear's more towards developing economy like Philippines & Indonesia.

Thailand meanwhile do love going into a dictatorial mode that's pretty much makes western weapon sometimes unattainable. The situation that's lead them to acquired Gripen is well documented.

At for those used Blackhawks, even if ATM are interested in hibah. Local final assembly or some kind of offset deals with Airbus for something like H160M is probably more attractive option for the gov.

As you said before, MY has no need for more then 18 LIFT. The whole 3 squadrons of BVR + LIFT + LCA plans on CAP55 is there simply due to us now currently not having the money. Kuwaiti FA18 allowed us the freedom of not doing that part of the plans anymore.

10 years may seem short. But pre covid estimate,as long as MY continue with reform & liberalize the economy, it can grow 300% and be a trillion dollars economy by 2030s. At that point ATM would have 300% more purchasing power then they do right now.

So I was thinking that those FA18 would work for 10 years afterwards the original 18 T7 is upgraded to an arm version and we would just replace the 24 FA18 with proper MRCA by 2035.


Air force primary roles is to defend the airspace. Air policing is a natural extension of that primary roles since they already have the equipment for it. Not that they should bought asset simply to prioritize their secondary air policing roles at the expenses of their primary roles.

Software manufacturing cost are cheap. Another copy of Windows cost Microsoft just a few cents. But the R&D, testing, certifying, intergrating, troubleshooting is not.

For example, The overall software development cost for the F35 is 10 billions dollars.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-lock...5-idUSKCN1GK02M

The software & hardware cost to upgrade the cockpit computer to make it more agile cost 1.28 billion

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/549490-f...million-overrun

The upgrade from f35 block 3 to block 4 is for now at least 14.4 billions

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/549490-f...million-overrun

As of now the ROK only 'investigate' the possibilities of using the FA50 as the F5 replacement. Simply because for all this while they been selling the idea that KF21 is the ROKAF F4 &F5 replacement

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/...jet-2021-04-09/

Afterwards there's really not much news of the results of its investigation. Engineer & resources aren't Infinite, they would need to divert engineers & resources from the current KFX program if they wish to upgrades the FA50 which would result in some delay on the KFX program. And delay would result in cost overun.

Not my words.
US firms IHS is the one making the forecast . You are also free to check out Forbes, HSBC & PWC forecast as well.

You don't need 12% growth to get those numbers. Also most country except for SG (which pretty much a taxes heaven) do need to first free themselves from dictatorship to achieve a high income status.

https://www.thestar.com.my/business/busines...illion-by-2030/

You are the one that praise offset as being a contributor to MY aerospace industry and I'm just stating the obvious. Why take in low wages low value added manufacturing as offset when others can offer something better?

Also I'm not the one who wrote letter to the Kuwaiti asking them for a FA18 hibah RMAF the one who wrote it and thus they have to make adjustments to their budget to support those hibah. As per recent RMAF interview, the MRCA would indeed be ordered by 2030 as delivery date is by 2035.

Like i said b4 i has 0 interest in making my own plan then ask ATM why not do this totally awesome plan of mine. I'm just interested in predicting what they going to do. And if this Fa18 route is the one they choose, the likelihood of the speciation & numbers of jet ordered would be cut and the CAP55 would turn into 2 sq of LCA & 3 sq of MRCA.

Putting sea mines in the world 3rd busiest waterways may not be a bright idea kot?

Probably RMN can avoid themselves a huge amount of pain if they restructure their acquisition to just 1 class of ship in each Malaysia plan.

For example
this RM: blow all money for a rebooted LMS, don't order other ship type.
Next RM : blow all money on the MRSS, don't order other ship types.

Setting up RMN ship like a factory with constant production sounds great on theory. And that's basically what they trying to do for the past 20 years

But as of recently in the Corvette/OPV size categories

6 Kedah out of planned 18?, then the production stop, replacement by
2 Korean training ship, out of 6? Production stop and rebooted
4 Chinese LMS out of planned 18? Production stop and rebooted
Now they talking about rebooted LMS.

Doubt Boustead get to build anymore LCS. Heard the current 6 is just the start and they would try to update it as they build along like what japanese did.

MMEA was quite Lucky as their bagan datuk class are build by an already establish shipyards and their tun Fatimah class are build by a JV of that already establish shipyards with TH. RMN get no such luck as their ship is mostly build by newly established inexperienced shipyards. And in the past 20 years all that shipyards pretty much goes belly up

Turning it to a training ship seem like an afterthought.
It seem like the design is originally a missiles Corvette turned into OPV.

The Korean Corvette turned OPV turned training ship itself seem to cost about the same as MMEA OPV.

So i assume ship in itself particularly if it's equip with commercial off the shelf stuff would cost half of what ships with military grade equipment & radar cost.

MMEA development budget seems to be half of that of RMN. And their ship of an equivalent size is about half the cost of RMN ships. So it's probably better for RMN to get out out of the OPV bussiness and just let MMEA handle it?

.

Again. I'm not panglima TUDM, i'm not the one who wrote letter asking for used FA18 and planned for those FA18 replacement to be ordered by 2030.

Am just saying With the hibah Fa18. There's really no need to find a BVR capable LCA as a requirement from day 1 nor have the need to buy 3 squadrons of LCA.

2 squadron of LCA under CAP55 is too small IMO. Particularly as we have 3 squadrons worth of MRCA with the MIG, hornet & Sukhoi before. Even Pinoy are planning for an eventual fleet of 36 LCA & 48 MRCA.

Leonardo are offering 7 or so extra m346 FOC. If we take it on top of 18 that's already received approval fir purchase TUDM would get to have 2 squadron of LCA in 1 malaysian plan. 12 of those exclusively for LIFT based in Kuantan and the rest to replace hawk in Labuan. They can also take further hit by packaging it together with ATR72 MPA. M346FA are competent enough that getting those FA18 isn't a requirement.

M346 like the typhoon & Rafale B4 is an obvious choice if we still allergic to american stuff to jaga hati DaGe.

Boeing meanwhile can package the refurbishment of those Fa18 together with T7 orders since their T7 isn't really capable of anything much for now. If anything those hibah FA18 is probably there to brighten Boeing chances of winning the contract.

.

This post has been edited by darth5zaft: Sep 12 2021, 07:49 PM

To be fair, The western world pretty much had stop playing on the sawit issues.

We unlike ID had run out of land to plant palm oil anyway. So getting them angmoh to acknowledge the sustainable palm oil would get us somewhere & probably even higher selling prices.

Their political tools of choice nowdays is slave laborer. And personally, the kind of political pressure we kinda need. Continue reliances on exploitation of low wages foreigners workers won't get us anyway. But transition towards knowledge base and automation required more cooperation with western economy.

atreyuangel said so if not mistaken.

The way I see it. RMAF has a preference for everything american but gov has a preference not to allowed RMAF to get anything american.

From the hibah FA18 to give T7 an edge, to fighting TD for GBAD & tying BVR missiles with GBAD, to ordering MRCA in 2030,( at that point only the F35 is available as the obvious choice). to making sure MQ9B is probably the only MALE there is that fit RMAF requirements as it supposed to be the unmanned components of MPA.

A half OPV half Corvette like the RSN LMV doesn't really sounds all that bad.

Basically just a vehicle to carry those MICA around to shoot stuff flying on the EEZ with the added benefits of using it as PV & mines countermeasures or such.

Thought it does sound like a restructuring of 15 2 5 program since putting weapon on ship they wish to retired in 5 years doesn't sound like a bright ideas. Would probably worth it if they intend to use it for another 15 years.

Since words on the street the rebooted LMS is pretty much the size and capabilities of the Kedah class. Seems like a merging of both the 18 OPV & 18 LMS into a single program would take place.



NSM probably better be put on a truck kot? Since truck are a lot faster than a ship and pan Borneo is a thing.

Heard that MICA is not something that the navy want but more of a something that boustead wanted to earn themselves plenty of kaching commission when TD & TUDM being force to pick it up as well

A better fit is probably to standardized it around ESSM which is basically just an Amraam. Not the best of missiles but one that can we can get plenty in our hands of in time of emergency considering the lists of country that are using it.

More of a similar concept to LMV. In which it prioritize air defense. Not really about getting those Saab designs LMV.

Those LMV are expensive probably because of its equipment & radar, they wanted to operate in others people water afterall far away from their own lands and thus can't relied on ground based radar.

ID vast territories + being an archipelago + underdeveloped land transportation network means they need more ASuW Corvette/fast attack boat. As for us,it's probably cheaper,faster, easier to just shoot those ASuW missiles from land.

Personally have no problem if RMN want to adopt RSN strategy. It make guessing what they going to do next easier. If they are apeing it, i can confidently say the next RMN ship after rebooted LMS is a Multi Role Combat Ship & MMEA going to get the OPV version of MRCS this Malaysia plan.

Which makes the MMEA mothership is something akin to absalon class & MRCS being something like class 31?

This post has been edited by darth5zaft: Sep 13 2021, 03:20 PM

Well, a plus point of ESSM is more towards the list of countries using it. Probably easier to ask for extra missiles from US,Canada,Japan,UAE, Australia then to ask from the french during times of crisis.

Don't know.
Just a speculation if they really want the navy & coast guard to have the same type of ship.I do think 6,000 tons is way too big for a coast guard.
3,000 tons ship like your example is probably a better fit for coast guard usage. But probably better to build a OPV version of gowind for the MMEA for the sake of commonalities & economic of scale?

I have no idea how the gov going to solve the gowind. Originally navy plan for this MP is 1 billions for 2 MRSS, another billion for 4 LMS & 3 billions for the gowind. But now the gowind required 6 billion more.

If the navy keep the gowind budget similar to the old 3 billions estimate, they may only have enough money for 3 or 4 gowind. Which left the other 2/3 hulls to be pick up by MMEA/PDRM as a mothership OPV? Or gov going to top up those 2 billions?

As for the LMS, Since then navy had stop talking about the MRSS & talk about a missiles Corvette. A single missile Corvette would cost at least half a billion ringgit. if the fund from MRSS in use for rebooted LMS, they can afford about 4 of it? 4 is no where close to enough, and the likelihood of the rebooted LMS being rebooted again next MP is high. Ordering LMS now would just ensure RMN trapped inside the rabbit hope of reboot & rebooted like they have done for the last 20 years. If they wanted 8 ship this MP, all they can get is a OPV @ 250 mil per ship.

I say a better idea is to forget about LMS for now. There's nothing that something like sigma 8313 can do that the Kedah can't. Kedah itself has at least 15 years of lives yet. The FAC had just been retrofitted as well and good enough for another 15 years. So there's really no need for Corvette or FAC size vessel to be ordered for the next 10 years. If anything RMN should get out of Corvette & FAC size vessel all together. 15 years should be enough time to get MMEA ready.

Just go put those MiCA launcher for the maharajalela to the Kedah, pull out the mines countermeasures equipment from the Mahameru to the Chinese LMS, Give maharajalela a proper AAW missiles And order 3 MRSS.

Thought RMN Don't want those setis too?.

Personally since we have pulled quite a komedi and signed things we shouldn't and we likely can't get out of it, since I heard we already prepaid for those things we shouldn't get in the first place.

Sending those MICA & setis to kedah do sounds like a bright idea. If that's can't be done, send it to the rebooted LMS?

This post has been edited by darth5zaft: Sep 13 2021, 10:52 PM

Well steel are cheap. The equipment are not.

The bigger the ship, the more expensive it get got more to do with the fact that you could fit plenty of stuff in a big ship. Not nessesarily due to the cost of steel.

If you skim on equipment or get a no brand equipment or off the shelf non custom made equipment from reputable brands or go for 'fit for but not with' . You could get a big ship for cheap.


Modular stuff on an OPV is something that the darulsalam,river class,arafura & LMV are design to do. But the modules itself hasn't been invented yet. If we wanted our rebooted LMS to do what theirs can do, the it probably a good idea to have ship that's around their size displacement and not smaller.

You could see here how the Pakistani had choose for a fit for but not with approach on their Damen OPV.



Off course Damen ship are modular like a Lego block, their supply boat,OPV, fast craft are all basically just the same ship rearrange a bit to meet the clients needs.



See basically the same, just more streamline to reduce the radar cross section (probably not by much).

So even if RMN choose a sigma design but use the same equipment as tun Fatimah then expected almost similar price.

This post has been edited by darth5zaft: Sep 14 2021, 12:46 AM

Again, your whole sentence "modular anti-ship missiles, modular towed sonars, modular minehunting systems, modular electronic surveillance systems, HADR modules, Diving modules" pretty much describe what the TNI-AL OPV, darulsalam, arafura & river class going to be eventually. Them all are doing their version of LMV. For now all of them are an OPV, pending the innovation of containerized module.

Going around build ship smaller then everyone else but intent of using the same containers module as everyone else isn't a bright idea.Limiting the size, would reduce the amount of module that can be installed nor the amount of equipment that can be add on nor the amount of electricity the generator can produce. It a whole lot of intergration sakit kepala if your ship is smaller then everyone else. Since manufacturer are going to invent their module to fit into those kind of 'standard' size ships.

Again, steel again are cheap. Equipment are not. You don't need to make your ship small to safe money. To safe money you skim out on the equipment for now rather than go around making the ship small.

it's basically a penny wise pound foolish approch if the rebooted LMS is smaller then the tun Fatimah. As you said yourself "You don't buy ships for the sake of buying ships. Ships should be fit for those missions" there's really no need to reinvent the wheels.

Ok lah, probaby them calling these rebooted LMS a rebooted LMS is a bit misleading & confusing. seem like the OG Chinese build LMS is originally design as their FAC replacement since they called it keris class and wanted 18 of it and all. Their FAC is afterall are being refurbished and are good for the next 15 years.

If anything these rebooted LMS is more of a Kedah/Lekiu class replacement rather than a FAC replacement. All of the supposed contender are offering something in the Kedah class tonnage range, doubt they do that if that's not what RMN RFI is asking for.

.

Well steel are cheap.
Those 700 tonne Chinese LMS, almost 2000 tons tun Fatimah OPV & the 12,400 tons Makassar class LPD all almost cost the same.

*I think those FIC is probably the CB90 replacement


Personally i think your mission statement mostly describe

1)a brown water navy. Brown water navy pretty much relied on fleet of gunboat & missiles boat FAC, mines warfare & plenty of subs for a hit and run approach. Basically what sweeden navy current is. Off course sweeden play that game as they are so scared of Russia but they didn't join NATO and such need to be prepared to defense themselves all by themselves.

2) a civilian coast guard, basically prioritizing their police at sea mission. Instead of trying to balance between the dualism of a paramilitary organization. Off course being police at sea during peacetime but at the same time responsible to Coastal defense is what RMN used to do mostly from their 2 kasturi, 36 FAC & 18 FIC.

RMN 15 to 5 seem that the navy are still confused as to what kind of navy they wanted to be. Brown water or green water. Seem they wanted to be both But. If TUDM finally decided to be a green water, best if TLDM to copy RAN homework

RAN assets
3 LPD
6 ASW frigates as replacement of their LCS size frigates
3 AAW destroyer
12 submarine from previous 6
12 OPV

RMN plan
12 OPV from previous 36 OPV + LMS
6 LCS ASW frigates
3 LPD
2 subs

So all they need to do is add few destroyers & a lot of submarines. Should be possible if they cancelled those 24 small size ships .


BHIC is a dick, we all know that. When we thought Chinese LMS is POS compared to tun Fatimah, here come BHIC charging twice for simply adding a heli pad & 50 tons on an already over expensive POS

But those others that reply to the RFI are pretty good. 500 mil a piece for the LMS to me seem like a fair price, remember someone post the calculation to fully equipped Kedah class to the teeth at Marhalim blog goes for 250 mil or something like that. Add in 250 mil in the cost of a tun Fatimah size ship then you get 500 mil.

As for why, probably the rebooted LMS would work like the LMV. Remember that LMV is a full Corvette but with the CIWS,ASUW,ASW weapon put in storage with space below heli deck for modules. For now it's parade around as a not too threatening AAW capable OPV since their missiles are pointed to the sky and not to the ship they are shadowing/tailings. But it would be a full Corvette the moment the need for a full Corvette appears.

For now, RMN need a replacement for 4 minesweeper, 3 hydro ship. The laksamana & lekir pretty much are obsolete by next MP. Without SLEP the Kedah too would be obsolete by 2025. So about 13 ship from 4 class need replacing (19 if we included Kedah). So a rebooted LMS is a good way to replace them all. If purchase are spread over 2 MP, they can afford 4 this MP and another 8 next MP. This would leave enough budget to complete LCS this MP and at least 2 MRSS next MP.



By 2030, both the kasturi & FAC SLEP program would hit expiry date. Thus they have the option of either ordering replacement for their FAC or forget about those tiny FAC and just get a destroyer as kasturi replacement. RN type 31 would only be completed by 2027. So 2030 look like a good time to order it. Doubt they have the money to order both types.



I say the likelihood of navy going for a green ocean strategies is high, since

1) they do donate almost nak roboh 16 FAC to MMEA B4, they kept 16 to themselves. Thought all of those donasi are already sunk to the bottom of the sea by MMEA. the change in gov in 2018 bring with it changes of priorities.rather than replacing those FAC with Chinese LMS as they originally intended, They are extending their shelf life by 15 years. Seem RMN wants to maintain a FAC fleet but MMEA want to have monopoly on FAC size fleets and the gov are siding with MMEA. if RMN do indeed transfer those Chinese LMS to MMEA, then I can say for sure that FAC size crafts would likely be a MMEA responsibility.

2) The CN235 MSA would operate under MMEA eventually and MPA & ASW MALE are operated by RMAF instead of RMN. All of surface Coastal radar too are operated by MMEA not RMN. Which Pretty much indicated that TUDM is not responsible for any surveilant in our territories.

3) NSM like brahmos being a long range precession guided missile is not something brown water navy bought. It's more suitable for open water warfare or as Coastal batteries be it by truck or jet.

4) MRSS Is in itself unneeded if all we care bout is self defense, it's more cost effective to use commercial vessels if we need to send asset between the east & west MY. Even if we need it, we don't need anything more than a glorified ferry like the Makassar class. But seem like the navy budget for MRSS is twice the cost of Makassar.

5) we actually do have a supply ship. 2 of them infact.for now we are using it as patrol ship, a good way to blow money considering the maintenance & fuel cost of such big ship.

As for MMEA, with the bagan datuk, tun Fatimah, mothership CN235 MSA, AS365 Dauphin probably they are copying USCG Integrated Deepwater System Program or something




Again, I'm not TUDM. Neither am i advocating for green water navies nor advocating for expansionary power, force projection & alliance with others etc etc. I'm just stating an opinion on what are their intension based on their actions. Again i could be wrong, the amount of information provided to the public realms aren't really plentiful.

I think ATM show a lot of intension to be part of an alliance while TNI want to be their own man, abilities to do stuff alone or with another like the french. Being your own man like what ID intend to do come at a steep price. You need to purchase free to use as you wish platforms like Scorpene, FREMM & Raphael to have such capabilities. Despite our residents singkie love to shit on them, i say they are doing exactly what they needed & wanted to do. If anything our residents Sinkie are being overly nationalistic applying sinkie logic to ID and comes out unimpressed and think they are dumb. Never bothered giving them a 2nd look and rethink why they act the way they does.

F35 like type 31 are cheap. But good luck being your own man if you buy it. Being cheap in itself has a price, there's no such thing as a free lunch afterall, in this case you are trading Abit of self interest for some monetary savings.

I think you mean LCS?

Yeah basically it all started when BHIC are in charge of ship spefikasi then RMN. They also goes for custom made rather than off the shelf design then go buy those IP which blow the cost. Then as the price got to high Then they fought RMN for weapons & system to be onboard to reduce the overall cost.

Then oil crisis comes, ringgit go GG, BHIC quickly paid out her overseas suppliers while the RM is strong which is quite a good thing but unfortunately to the system & weapon RMN didn't want.

Now they are out of money as most money had been use to prepaid stuff. Their only hope is gov top up but Then the change in gov comes and politicians are more interested in highlighting salah BHIC.

It's not much of a case of corruption, as after 3 gov on no one are charged by MACC. So it's mostly a case of incompetence.BHIC can avoid lots of problem if they were 'nicer' and not be a dick. They really think RM going to stay quiet, not fight and let them take full advantage of RM selling them ship that they didn't want.

But then again, they decide to be a dick and thus got fucked for being a dick.

Well RMN used to do those things when MMEA wasn't around utilizing assets that are meant for coastal defense mostly With the fleet of 36 FAC. And that's probably where 18LMS + 18 OPV comes from. So it's not a question of either or, since the same asset can perform both tasks.





To be fair they kinda need too.

The reason why TUDM 18 OPV + 18 LMS plans seems like duplicating MMEA 8 OPV + 14 NGPC plans is because it is. It is just 2 agencies fighting each other to do mostly the same jobs. Ie law enforcement during peacetime.

The difference is at wartime. Simply due to the the then need of mMEA being mostly a police at sea & aren't responsible towards coastal defense Then the NAVy do need those 18 small size LMS + 18 OPV to defend the coast while MMEA need those 14 NGPC to do law enforcement exclusively.

If MMEA are responsible towards law enforcement during peace time and coastal defense during war then there's no need for those 18 LMS. Just transfer out the 4 Chinese LMS and buy MMEA some time to acquired 14 NGPC through RMN SLEP of their FAC.

Of course that's would mean MMEA NGPC may need to be fit for but not with ASUW missiles. Or they don't, just let TD took care of it with land based ASUW missiles.

Don't think the need to have MMEA operating as mostly a civilian organization is much of a thing now since Chinese CG is now operate under their military police.







Look carefully at the original 15 to 5. The remaining 6 LCS is ordered 20 years after the original 6, like the subs are ordered 20 years after the original Scorpene it's a replacement rather than addition.

with the navy number of smallish ship has been cut from 36 to 12. They should have enough money for other type of assets now.

Navy usually get half of what TD get and MMEA usually get half of Navy get in development budget, so it would be better to utilize MMEA budget for smallish ship.

Again There's nothing wrong with equipping 14 MMEA NGPV + 4 Chinese LMS with fit for but not with ASuW missiles. Then you get yourself 18 missiles boat at our disposal during wartime.




BHIC being a bigger dick then the Chinese is an already know facts. In this case they tying to sell a gunboat at missiles Corvette price.

I say its fair because missiles aren't cheap. A single mica cost RM 6.75 mil. A 36 cell mica cost RM 243 mil add in a tun Fatimah OPV and you get yourself a RM 500 million vessels. Of course using ESSM would cut the cost for 36 cell to be just RM60 -80 mil.





The fearless class are retain for now but would be replaced by 2025. She and her replacement mostly there as a gunboat to do coast guard jobs. So in our case the fearless & her replacement is probably best suited as a MMEA responsibility.

Like i said,of you seperate the law enforcement & defense duty then be prepared to buy 2X the numbers of ship. At the end, you end up with plenty of small ship and not much big ship or even submarine.

The defense & internal security on land are seperated because army man due to their training regime is really horrible at dealing with the public. Just look at Thailand, the army is a wee bit too trigger happy. Nor is great to train your police like the army as in the US. So it's not really something you want to do to your own citizens. In the EEZ like the border regiment they mostly interact with foreigners. So the incentive to be nicer to foreigners just isn't there. That's why most country coast guard are establish as paramilitary organization, they do coastal defense on top of law enforcement while their navy goes to the open sea.



That's why I think absalon class is a perfect mothership for MMEA, it's is a RORO afterall.

A RoRo for MRSS is great idea for self defense not much of a great idea if you want to be parts of an alliance. Being part of an alliance allowed us to get some commitment from others to defense ourselves but we also need to be committed to help them with their war efforts.There's no such thing as a free lunch after all. As it is all FPDA members has a LPD.






More like them singkie want some abilities to shoot at us and Everyone else rather then just to not be seen as american bitch. US weapon afterall can't be use for things that US disapproved. They can't use their amraam,F16V,f15,f35 to shoot at us. But they can shoot use their M346 to shoot at us with their MICA. Or use LMV and shoot MICA at our/ other people plane.

Ok my point is, UK like US, unlike the french are selling us stuff below market price. They are also quite generous in their MRCA offered back in 2015. And as I say, there's no such thing as a free lunch. They ain't giving discounts out of the pureness of their hearts. They do want something in exchange for that discounts.

The only difference is UK unlike the US as LKY had pointed out are more refined and not too forceful in trying to push their agenda simply because their excellent diplomacy skills. US even though not as bad as PRC, has horrible diplomacy skills.