Technically the navy never talk about OPV/ NGPV for now, infact the LCS itself was once known as 2GPV. They only talk about RLMS and it indicates that it is indeed a missiles Corvette. most of those manufacturer that reply to the RFI didn't really send out traditional missiles Corvette design. They mostly send out a Kedah size ship design that's halfway between OPV & Corvette which is basically what LMV is.

As for what something like LMV can do that tun Fatimah can't do? Well it got AAW missiles that can shoot thing out of the sky. It can protect other ship , protect Petronas installation from Arial attacks, it can also enforce an ADIZ. Even if you go for a modest fit of 8 MICa, it's just 50 mil more on top of the cost of tun Fatimah.

It's no secret that type 31, MRCS & FREMM are at those size, because those are the size needed to carry patriot missiles. We can't go around trying to put patriot on a LCS size ship (also that's another good reason why absalon is a good candidate for MMEA mothership)

The only missiles that can fit into ship smaller than Kedah is ASW & ASuW missiles. But those things can be put in a bagan datuk size ship as well. Since we would be ordering 14 NGPC for MMEA. There's really no need to order 18 ship of those size to be a missiles boat exclusive for RMN on top of 14 exclusive for law enforcement for MMEA.

Doing those mean we are getting twice the number of ship for peacetime law enforcement on lictoral zone. Twice the ship also mean twice the cost in staff, maintainece and so on. if RMN is not doing the peacetime law enforcement what should they do during peacetime? Sit around as reserve around our coast and wait for a time they are needed? Them sitting around aren't exactly free, wages, maintainece all still need to be done.Not to mention you already sunk in the cost of the ship that now isn't being use. Plus the lost of opportunities to operate further offshores because most money is being use for lictoral purposes. Why do that? How is that a good policy? How is it a good use of resources?

PRC already put their CG under military administration and giving them the go ahead to shoot at civilian ships. So that pretty much mean we too don't have to keep our CG as mostly a civilian law enforcement organization. And it's also mean it fully justified to deal with CCG with the navy. US pretty much had indicate that they are treating CCG as a military anyway and would deal with them in a military way.

Personally i don't really see a point in missiles boat FAC for countries that can afford a proper air force. Countering Chinese boat with a boat of our own isn't a sustainable policy, they have more ability to build more boat. What you want is more plane that can shoot boat. Simply because due to the distance,them bringing them jet here is unsustainable policy for them. Also Having lots of jet discouraged them from bringing them boat here in the first place. Off course, if you have stealth jet, quantity is less of a concern. People can't shoot things they can't see.it would further discouraged them to be here. Or put those NSM on a truck or something. But if we do need but if we do need such missiles boat FAC, just let MMEA do it.


Assuming that 15 to 5 like CAP 55 is a rigid unchanging plans that would be followed to the letters is not the correct thing to do. If 15 to 5 are follow to the letter, we would not get anything more than 6 LCS & 2 subs at one time.

changing plans are ok to do particularly as the conflict at SCS has become very dynamic and ever changing since there's way too many actors operating and the interaction between each of them and the subsequent decisions each would makes would require a constant changing of plans to meet those new dynamic.

If anything over these few years, It's no longer just a borders dispute, It's inching towards a new cold war. Infact recently US marine are talking about installing patriot on islands all over the SCS and going around in a diplomatic mission to countries to join in to containing china. How is that not a cold war mentality?

In a cold war scenario in the SCS theaters, we aren't just responsible towards our own security but also to secure our Allies. And that the reason why US are so sooo generous with free radar, free missiles, 1/3 the price for MQ9B and so on. Not just them are being generous, the Chinese once had offered to put missiles here to shoot at singkie and offered free coastal radar to Indonesia. UK then had offered to give hibah jet if we order jet from them easily doubling the number of jet from what we could afford.

They are generous Because at the end those asset also guranteed their safety. Guaranteeing their safety to operate here safely using their equipment that we bought/ get for free is the same as us joining them in their war efforts. Their war efforts are there so they can set the rules of trades. Rules that heavily favor them. Rules that makes them richer than they already is.

But of course, with MY & ID choosing US hibah over china. Thus the action that secure them angmoh to operate safely over here would also discouraged Chinese activity over here just like how western fleet mostly avoid the Taiwan straits. And thus the reason the Chinese doesn't operate here as aggressively as they did near Philippines. It's just not safe here for them compared to there.

Our security did not depends on us having the capabilities to counter china, we would never be able to. But we have distance to our advantage, we can distrub their supplies lines, we also have potential Allies who share common interests and we can precure more cutting edge equipment due to bigger access to suppliers. So why do we want to play a game that give the Chinese an upper hands by playing kedekut, buy cheap stuff, priorities quantity over quality, don't works with others? Why not counter them with strategy that's to our advantage?


.

This post has been edited by darth5zaft: Sep 16 2021, 07:05 AM

Oh sorry my mistake.

that was the price of Amraam.
Essm cost at least double or same price of MICA

36 Is just an example. technically you could fit lots if you design it for such purpose. Just that you won't have space for anything else like living quarters or so on.

At 16 cells, be it MICA or ESSM you are spending upward of 100 million for those missiles alone. You probably need FCS,radar,CMS upgrade and so on to make firing those missiles possible in the first place.

Add more if you want CIWS, ASuW,ASW or EW capabilities.

Some says SCS is the place where 2/3 of the world submarines operate, so you might want to at least put in a sonars, towed away sonar off course would cost more.

Those LMS still then need additional equipment if they intend on dual roles it as minesweeper or hydro ship or so on.

A budget of 500 million aren't going to buy you any top of the line canggih Corvette.


Hard to say

Looking at Original 15/5 plan

RM12 they pay 6 billion for LCS & 2 billions for LMS. Thought their original budget is more to 3 billions for LCS & 1 billions for LMS

RM13 they originally intended to pay remaining 3 billions for LCS, another 4 LMS at 2 billion, and no one sure how much MRSS cost. But even at 500 million each. It's still just 6 billion

RM14 plan only called for 6PV & 8LMS and some heli.
LMS estimated was rm250 mil each while a PV cost rm500 mil.
So 5 billion without the heli?

This post has been edited by darth5zaft: Sep 16 2021, 07:28 AM

Thought piracy mostly happened in SG & ID border at the straits of SG? And they mostly board ship in Anchorage in the SOS, steal a bit then run away back to ID.

Also doesn't seem like a problem that MY & ID really seem to care about. I mean, ID have 2 other waterways that function as SOM alternative while MY has vested interest that ship don't stop at PSA and just use Klang PTP port. The increase in insurance premium due to piracy activities is mostly a SG concerned while MY & ID doesn't seem to concerned or even have a desire to solve it.

MY & ID also put an artificial cap on how much ship that able to transit the SOM, a cap that would be filled in the next few years.

Anyway that floating Pagar that sinkie like to use seems like a very cost effective solution in border control. Wonder how much is the cost for it.

This post has been edited by darth5zaft: Sep 16 2021, 11:01 PM

This one, i think they called it floating sea barriers.
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/poli...l-security-amid

Personally i don't think the smuggling & human trafficking can be solve with just more boat, We just can't be everywhere at the same time.

The narrow waterways of SOM & Sulu sea makes smuggling easy. And the economic disparity between us & our neighbors makes it's attractive & profitable for them to do it

I mean the human traffickers had stop trying to come here directly by boat, they used to come by land through Thailand but when it isn't possible anymore they now using ID as transit, send them by fast boat from Sumatra and dump them few km from the mangrove coast.

If not mistaken those floating barrier would damage any boat rudders who try to ram it, and equip with sensor if people try to swim through it allerting land crew to intercept them as they swim ashore. Personally, it may turn out as a very cost effective solution since intercepting by boat aren't exactly cheap.

Anti smuggling & human trafficking are only a recent security problems. It's was quite profitable back then to allowed the exploitation of foreigners then, until it wasn't as a result of western sanction.

But As for the Sulu sea, it's understandable. There's not much money to be made there for now and thus securing it's isn't much priorities. MY makes money from trade at SOM & oil at SCS and thus there's where most of the security installation is. Thought it might evolve into another important waterways once MY&ID artificial limit on SOM happened. And thus more & more resources would be used to secure it.

At 325 ton it's basically the same size as bagan datuk isn't it?

There's nothing wrong with buying this Damen as the 2nd batch of NGPC since MMEA still need 8 of it. There's also nothing wrong with MMEA working beside Navy LCS nor nothing wrong with MMEA having military grade weapon.

So case close. Let's move on.

In my opinion,
We should bought military asset that fit for purpose. Ie for defense purposes 1st, but our acquisition should be gear towards playing supporting roles in other people proxy war to provide a secure staging ground for them to operate, to do whatever they want to do.

And thus the military asset we acquired can be use for internal security provided it's as an extra hand in helping a civilians agency but not in charge of it.For example beef up coastal surveilant kaw kaw. Then just let TD/polis pick them up once they land ashore.


To be fair, human trafficking & smuggling like drug would never be cost ineffective. The demand is inelastic and thus the more enforcement we do, the higher the risk for them, the higher they can charge and the higher their profit margin is.

Easier solution is probably a Malaya irendeta custom union, a common market & freedom of movement though a shengen like agreement. Because at the end of the day the border between 5 Malaya irendeta countries are an artificial creation and with it difficulties to enforce and secure. It's not like our wages are that high compared to our neighbors nowdays.

Same size. A bit different in usage and thus prices i supposed

*Fremm is a front line combatants to bring the fight to the enemies
*Type 31 is mostly a support combatants, still capable but not a front line vessels and thus a whole lot cheaper
* Iver huitfeldt is either a specialized submarine hunters or a support vessel with RoRo for a sea mining platforms.

Going for multiple suppliers do allowed them to get good price on stuff, increase the diplomatic relationship with multiple countries but at the cost of higher cost of operations. A strategy that's said countries is a middle power and not an allies of anyone else. Same strategies MY used to employed but are now trying hard to get out off.

You can.
If you ignore the law of physics.

Basically need to invest a bit more on the coast guard ship fixture & fitting as well as personel training?

Something the navy might want to offer help as the CG would play deputies to them during wartimes.

^^
Technically we are the one who wants to keep china out of southern portion of South China sea. Not the other way around.

Again 10 of your ideal ship are already built with 8 more OTW. So why are the talk still around that those ship aren't there in the first place.

Not to mention
How to buy modules that's hasn't been invented yet?

Seem like talk of modules had dies down these few years and most navy who once thought about modules are hardwiring it instead.

This post has been edited by darth5zaft: Sep 17 2021, 04:40 PM

^^
Off the shelf item doesn't mean plug & play like in a PC. You still need intergration, certifying, software writing, and if it draw more power, more generator, more radar & equipment for example. Remember that to put BVR on FA50 would double the price.or how those refitted in our Sukhoi increase the acquisition costs.


A bit different.

Seem your strategy is about building lots of ship to match the Chinese, something they can afford due to the huge resources & manpower they have and assume the conflict is about borders dispute.

Their aim is not to keep us out of SCS,what they wanted is to expand until the SOM, Sunda & Makassar straits to 'liberate' those choke point and allowed flow of traffic to be under their control. They are using borders dispute mostly as an excuse similar to their approach in the senkaku. What they really wanted is to be liberated from the 1st island chain.So What we want is a strategy that halt their expansion near Philippines and not further.

Learn from the Philippines mistake of not having a workable air force thus they compete with the Chinese with ship, ship that the Chinese has more than them and thus they lose Access to reefs. They then have FA50, but FA50 can't strike maritime target nor can exploit Chinese jet weakness in BVR, and thus Chinese able to occupied reef and build a base with them unable to do anything about it. and now use those base to threaten Philippines to do china bidding. They could halt the Chinese a bit by getting F16 but the Chinese are pressuring them not to.

In our case, they don't care much about James Shoal, which as you said several meter deep underwater, they care about Luconia shoals which actually Above waterline with U/W features that good enough to built a base on. In this case they want to cease it, create a military base on it. Point the missiles at us and put fighters jet on it.

Once they get James shaol they would move to the Natuna and then further & further & further. So if you want to create a defense white paper, those are the things you should consider. What you shouldn't do is imagine it as another piedra Blanca. Putting more boat to match them, would incentives them to put more boat and overtime you would be overwhelmed by their numbers of boat because of the resources & manpower they have. If you keep insisting that this is just another piedra Blanca, others would look at you funny.


As for your dream ship there's already 4 Chinese LMS & 6 NGPC already with 8 more NGPC OTW.

This post has been edited by darth5zaft: Sep 17 2021, 06:08 PM

1) that's why I said 500 mil ain't going to buy us much particularly with the weak RM Nowdays. 500 mil a piece is the original budget for a single LCS back then, need a bit of a top up for a marthadinata class back then. With rm 500 mil nowdays we can't even get a Diponegoro class. manhen said recently only 8 RLCS (down from 18 to 12 to 8) would be bought next year, 2 MRSS by 2024, 6 NGPV by 2026. Hopefully those NGPV get a size upgrade like RLCS and get to type 31 size.

2) that's the reason why them Chinese hasn't been very aggressive here compared to there.the more foreign battleship coming, the bigger ID & SG ship get the better.at the end we can't do it alone. Off course them coming might triggered them Chinese to suddenly get aggressive and build a base on luconia. At this point in time i say AF built up is more important than navy build up.

3) well there's 8 NGPC more to come, and they already say they open for new design.

Well if superpower design thing to operate in other people backyards wouldn't it mean it design to operate in our backyard?

Any good reason not to go for cost effective off the shelf solution but rather go for custom made solution?

I mean at the end, it's not like we have local abilities to do the integration ourselves and would relied on those superpowers firms anyway.

Well it's not mine.
I'm not duli yang maha mulia seri paduka baginda yang di-Pertuan agong., I wish I were.


Joke aside. Yes it's a fail procurement.

MiCa are chosen compared to ESSM despite ESSM are a far better missiles but both cost about the same. We all know why they did it

Setis are use, despite request for tacticos also we all know why

Go for a custom made vessel, rather than something off the shelf them go buy the blueprint of those vessel pumping the price up 300% from original budget also we all know why.

But to bastard shipyards credit.
Technically the 1st ship are complete but some reports says navy refuse to sign the ship management system and thus it cannot work lah. It's all Hardware without any software install. Navy also reportedly keep changing spefication even after the steel are being cut which results in cost overun. Thought this is mostly their fault for being a dick to their own clients.

Also the price hike from 9 to 12 is not their fault. Mostly the fault of oil crisis that dropped the RM value. They also need to milk some money desperately since they are deeply in debt as a result of them being the white knight for the Kedah class.

It's a komedi really.

Unlikely to happened.hahahaha

BNS is not MMEH. BNS is relatively new shipyards with not much experience nor have much commercials customer. And thus they relied heavily on their monopoly of navy ship building & maintenance. Without a navy contract they don't have money and thus they won't be able to finish the ship. Like it or not gov need to transfer them the money first not them handing over ship 1st before getting paid.


The problem at BNS is not the lack of good engineer it's the lack of capable & talented management. When the ringgit goes to the drain, rather than trying to salvage and complete at least some ships (that's would win them public & thus political support) they priorities prepaying overseas suppliers. As it is ,it's impossible to cancel the other 2 ship as all the material are already paid for and are here. You can cancelled it buy you ain't getting much saving from it.

MiCa missiles hasn't been bought,what they bought is only the mica launchers. Not sure if current arrangements can enable mica er to be install or not. If you go around and install tacticos might as well just use ESSM. Completing a ship for the sake of completing a ship like the kedah is something we shouldn't do anymore. The ship are build to do a particular task, if it can't do that particular task, you are just wasting money operating & maintaining those ship.

For a custom solution this one bolehlah priced, the belharra frigates afterall cost RM3.5 billions per unit inclusive of R&D cost. RM 2 billion per unit if the R&D cost are absorbed by their taxes payers.

Technically that shipyards had built the kedah.

I have no idea why there's plenty of Malaysian that Like to look down to their own country & citizens like they are some bunch of kayangan dwellers.

Lack of commercial customer does not mean that engineer are bodoh & bebal. Cannot glue together some steel. It just mean they don't have the cash flow to embarked on a project without financial injection as they don't have other sources of income.

Even if they didn't 'reinvented' the wheel and goes for a existing blueprint, the price you pay as Alex had mentioned is still the same. The increase in cost is mostly related to the oil crisis that fuck the ringgit not because we bodoh bebal Don't know how to glue together a ship. To be fair to BNS, no one really see the oil crisis coming.

We bought a french ship after all and french ship are freaking expensive.
French ship was choosen not just probably for songlap. But french stuff was a geopolically correct move back then as PRC back then hasn't gone completely ting tong as they did now, and trying not to offended them was a good geopolitical consideration back then.

The lack of management expertises as I mentioned doesn't mean the management are bodo bebal. It's just mean the put their priorities in the wrong place. The original idea was to immitate the Korean and Japanese. To keep churning ship and build upon it as they go.



And to do that, it's easier to just work with a single suppliers in this case DCNS and thus why the shipyards fight tooth & nail to keep all french spefication. Also the likely reason why BNS purposefully handicapped the LCS to just a ASW platforms rather than general purpose. It mean they can get more order on ships. General purpose would give navy the excuse not to order more.

The management problem here is they didn't mean that they are wrong not to consider what their clients want and care more for themselves. As crisis hit, they still want to build 6 ship rather than just go out and finished just 4 or something. Not to say from a business perspective a bad strategy.

BNS bussiness management is not abnormal or bodo. Milking thing if you have the opportunity too or being a dick when situation allowed it is basically what is thought at all bussiness school why u think Jeff bezoz is such a dick? Or why apple the SJW worrior build their phone in a almost slave laborer camp style sweatshop ?. I mean no one see 2018 gov change coming and no one really put it as a risk factors. If 2018 didn't happen, gov would just quietly top up the money & ask the navy to just accept it. BNS would still be the ultimate winner milking the navy to kingdom comes.

2018 gov change give some opportunities for the navy to break free from being continuously being milk by BNS, they saw the opportunity and they took it. Of course to achieve those 'freedom' the LCS are being the sacrificial lamb. Technically if the navy pejam sebelah mata and sign things even if they didn't want too they could get 2 ship ready now, the gov would also likely inject the capital needed for the remaining 4.and everything would just go on as normal.

Also puji PT PAL & ST marine also no use. They are playing the same game as BNS. A monopoly who get all navy contract. At the very least we know our navy tak suka. Hard to say if RSN & TNI-AL love the ship they got or the ship they got or the weapon, fixture & fittings they got is the ship they wanted in the 1st place or if the ship they got can fulfill their mission objective.

thought they also built the Makassar and would soon build the submarine, fremm & type 31?

Ok lah they got lots/some of it unlike ST marine & DCNS

Yeah. It's most likely is a damen.

Personally, a better design then the fassmer that MMEA get.



Basically the same price as the Chinese LMS?

Why so i have a feeling we spend money for a fully equipped FAC but end up with just a gunboats again ?

How much for a gunboat version of the Damen lookalikes FAC?

If it's anything like the fassmer, does that mean TNI is paying RM150 million just to fit in those ASW missiles?