So far there is no feedback in this thread of pricings and workmanship finishings of Ah Man, Balakong.

However, member @NobodyII has kindly updated here Ah Man has a sister Branch in Bandar Kinrara 5, Puchong which billed him RM120 for a more complete 4 Wheel Alignment on his SUV (brand/model unknown).

Your 2018 Proton vvt has a Rear Torsion Beam suspension design which is Factory non-adjustable and being isn't a SUV/MPV , hence I speculate it should be lower price than a 'real' 4 Wheel Alignment.

Avoid Front Wheel Front-End Alignment and ask for Thrust Line Alignment as explained here, if the shop guy knows what you are refering to as both these methods are part of 2 Wheel Alignment.

Kindly update us what happens?

This post has been edited by zeng: Oct 28 2021, 07:37 PM

Thank you for your service ratings, for the benefit of all readers here.

Glad that you appear to be quite happy with the outcome thus far.

Btw, mind sharing with us his price of manually-aligning a 2018 Saga vvt and how long you got to wait ?

After a month or two of rather 'extensive' driving and testing, try to test and update us later whether your Saga can at ALL times drive straight like an arrow (American speak) and planted/steady:
a )under varying conditions of lower (60-80 km/hr) and higher (100-130 km/hr) road speeds, and
b )occasionally with both hands off the steering wheel (Caution!) where condition permits, and
c )during acceleration, and
d )during braking etc.

Besides, test if you have equal ease or heaviness in making turns to Left or Right.

Await your feedback on Ah Man's finishings in months to come.

Edit: The bold above is sort of a highly pleasurable ultimate/near-perfect driving experience one can get to enjoy and benefit from on typical roads/streets driving .......
even from cheapo cars with non-adjustable Rear suspension systems like Rear Torsion Beam and/or Live axle imho.

This post has been edited by zeng: Oct 28 2021, 11:21 AM

How to install rear shims on cars with Rear Torsion Beams suspension for improved alignment 'tuning' ?

What are the benefits?

https://www.hyundai-forums.com/threads/do-i...ignment.232377/



Question: Can rear shimming be carried out on a Rear Live/Fixed Axle like Avanza's?

Note: Rear Torsion Beam suspension is found in most Vios, Corollas, Prius, Yaris, City, Jazz, Fit, Civics, Accents, Elantras, Kias, some Europeans and probably all Perodua's etc, subject to specific model years.

This post has been edited by zeng: Dec 10 2021, 09:54 AM

Tuning for Oversteering and Understeering..

link



Refering to this display/screenshot, has the writer got the corrections reversed/terbalik?

2010 Hyundai Tucson Front Suspension parts.

I commented something regarding the above in another lowyat thread.

Attached below are pictorials of some parts in question.

1 )Front Spring & Strut;



2 )Front Stabilizer bar assembly and;



3 )Front Lower Control Arm and Steering Knuckle;



Enjoy...

Yea, that's what I was thinking too along the lines of lower tyre pressure gives relatively higher grip than higher tyre pressure, everything else being equal.

Having said this, it bases purely on 'tyre engineering' or properties.

Could the writer approach this subject of over-steer/under-steer corrections from the perspective of vehicle suspension dynamics (which we ignore totally) during turning/cornering, which may cancel, neutralise or over-run grip effects of lower/higher tyre pressure?

For all we know, the writer could be right ?

Btw, does higher tyre pressure results in higher spring rate of a car suspension spring system whilst lower tyre pressure results in lower spring rate of said suspension system?

This post has been edited by zeng: Dec 31 2021, 11:46 AM

Not sure if I understood/interpret your position correctly, do you mean to say the pictorial by writer is correct?

@amduser may be right with his statement and experience above, which I generally concur .....
i.e the pictorial on understeer/oversteer corrections are not correct and indeed terbalik.

Besides in a vehicle turning or cornering scenario, increases in tyre pressure results in higher spring rate (on tyre contribution) that leads to tyre grip reduction.

Decreased tyre pressure correlates with lower (tyre) spring rate that leads to tyre grip increase.

From the viewpoint of vehicle suspension dynamics in a turning/cornering, @amduser's position is still valid imho.

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 4 2022, 01:17 PM

Is it, on an Avanza?
Ok, will give it a try on my Avanza as I can feel some over-steer right now.
Rear tread depth is low though at around 2 -2.5 mm (at about 100-105k kms usage).
Front tread depth now is about 3 -3.5 mm at about 83k kms usage.
Right Front outer edge wear more than inside edge and Left Front like a difference of say 0.5 mm due to previous mis-alignment I think.

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 5 2022, 09:55 AM

My last known or pumped tyre pressures some 2 months ago were:
275 kpa Front

255 kpa Rear.

Any suggested tyre pressure values?

When you buy and install brand new tyres on your car(s), beware of brand new tyres with Tyre Conicity defects leading to vehicle pull to one side, despite 'perfect' wheel alignment works being done.



Source:
Diagnosing Tire Pull
by www.tirerack.com

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 7 2022, 01:38 PM

Car without installing Rear Shock Absorber set - See how the Rear Suspension behaves!
21 s.
Have a laugh pl...



This post has been edited by zeng: Mar 7 2022, 11:28 AM

Huuh...... Rear Total Toes of 1 degree both sides combined.

Mind sharing the print out of the alignment read outs?

That 's going to eat up the rear tyres really really fast right?

How's your tyre life so far?

Do you experience rear axle instability on rough road surface, especially on turns/curves/cornering?

Yes, replacing the whole rear torsion beam is one option technically.

For RM650 it is probably a used second hand from the kedai potong/scrap yards??

If so the replacement might not be accurate also giving you another set of wrong alignment angles??

If it is new torsion beam from Perodua may be worth trying.

Shimming the rear torsion beam is another option which I personally prefer, problem is I have difficulty in finding a competent and reasonably-priced mechanic in Klang valley to do this kind of job on my Avanza.

Let us know if your mechanic is good and competent on shimming rear torsion beam delivering cun cun good alignment reports.

Here is a link on shimming of rear torsion beam axle on a 2012 Hyundai Elantra with reasonably good results.

https://www.hyundai-forums.com/threads/do-i...7/#post-1984049

This post has been edited by zeng: Mar 16 2022, 09:40 PM

If you look through the link I provided 2 posts above on shimming of Rear Torsion Beam/Hub, total shim thickness required by @nightlord in order to shrink its Rear Total Toes to factory specifications would be about 0.40 -0.60 mm on one and/or both sides combined.

Unfortunately the shims or washers thickness I found online is in 1 mm, 2 mm and 3 mm size.......
which imo is not quite suitable for such a typical Rear Torsion Beam shimming job.

Is there metal shims in 0.10 mm or 0.20 mm thickness available in the market, online store or retail shops? Mind intro one or two such outlets?

Replacing with a used rear torsion beam might end up with a rear camber/toe also out of factory specs. IDK.

Replacing with a brand new rear torsion beam would be very pricy. Even then the resulting rear camber and toe might look 'bad' or worse still, also out of specs. So it is a big risk too.

@Nightlord, as suggested above by @amduser do you experience 'understeer', excessive tyre wear?

Rear axle push to left and/or right sides when driving over bumps and potholes?

Car drifts or pulls to one side on straight ahead driving when both hands temporarily off the steering wheel?

With a centred steering wheel the car does not travel straight but move to one side?

Turning left steering effort or smoothness is different from turning right as your steer?

This post has been edited by zeng: Mar 19 2022, 09:59 AM

Oh no Bro..... never thought about this option of Ring Shim. Thank you.

The search continues ..... with Ring Shims for Avanza Rear Live axle.....

This post has been edited by zeng: Mar 20 2022, 12:07 PM

Hi, yes you are right in suggesting 60' is 1° .

With Rear Toes at +0°11' (at LR) and +0°40' (at RR) i.e Rear Total Toes is +0°51' .

As suggested by @amduser above:
I would be surprised if you do not have outside edge tyre wear as suggested.

The question is:
do you experience more outside wear on Right Rear tyre only,
or Left Rear tyre only,
or both rear tyres wear at the same rate?

I concur you should experience understeer phenomenon when pushing the car to the 'limit' during fast cornering/turning if you know what I mean.

You don't feel it that way. But that maybe you were not pushing hard enough? IDK.

The little bit of body vibration when getting up to highway speeds that you experienced is most probably caused by what @amduser says:

Ok, you have decided on doing a shimming job.

Care to enlighten us how long a time is the job?

Types of shims or washers used, material metal or plastic elastomers?

Thickness of shims used?

Only on one side or both sides of Rear?

How much is your wallet damage?

How many times does the shop dismount and remount the tyres onto the tyre rim hubs, as I read it could take a long time like 2 rounds or more in between setting up on alignment machine?

Would appreciate if you could upload the Before and After Alignment print out to share about the quality and finishing to the shimming job as well as the alignment job.

Do you mind sharing as I am very keen to know the name and location of the shop that do your shimming job for I have been researching/enquiring about it for my Avanza rear axle without success thus far, and also location of alignment shop if they are another different shop.........
assuming you are quite happy with their rear axle shimming and alignment workmanship and pricings.

This post has been edited by zeng: Mar 21 2022, 05:59 PM

Wow... 60-90 minutes to complete a shimming job on two rear hubs (connecting to torsion beam axle), for that is quite a fast job for maybe 1-2 rounds of tyres dismounting/mounting onto tyre rims imo.

So I suppose this Jetsinn shop is quite experienced and well-versed in shimming Myvi rear torsion beam jobs, how I wish I'm staying around JB to avail his service.

RM70 per side of rear axle shimming job seems to be very reasonable rate for their expertise/brain works, imho.

Yes, please share your feedback post alignment in weeks/months to come by pushing a bit hard on left/right turns at safe and reasonably high road speeds, on uneven pot holed road surfaces, bumps etc to check if the Myvi drifts/pulls to one side, steering wheel cocked to 11 or 1 o'clock position, driving stability and certainty etc.


Concur with the foreman's suggestion of having a small margin of rear toe in. But we won't know the actual selected rear toe in without an upload of its alignment readings.

It sounds interesting that post shimming/alignment works you could feel deceleration rate is reduced when off throttle ....
wonder how it works here....

Generally things have improved for you, that sounds good.

Note: This intro on Jetsinn shop is linked at Post #2 of this thread for general reference (Credit to @nightlordccc79).

This post has been edited by zeng: Mar 22 2022, 09:55 AM

Last week my Avanza Right Front side suspension kind of producing 'nget nget' noise when car going over bumps and is especially clear and 'loud' when turning left, sort of undetectable when turning right.

While checking the problem, the workshop demonstrated to me the Right Front rack end assembly is loosened by pushing and pulling hard Left - Right -Left on the Right Front rack end.



Left Front rack end assembly was tight, no problem.



Note: Both the front tie rod ends were replaced new last December 2020 i.e some 15 months ago.

My question is: with a loosened Right Front rack end assembly (visually moves by about 1 mm or so), somehow my steering wheel cannot feel or detect a loosened tie rod end/rack end assy during normal straight ahead driving or turning left/right?

Car seems normal when tracking fast on highway as well as slow or fast turning or cornering in Taman or inter town curved roads.

Rear set of XM2 tyres (1315 and 1215 manufacturing dates) have a residual tread depth of about 2.0 - 2.5 mm with usage of about 110-115k km. To be replaced tomorrow at a good price of RM230 each.

Note: Front set of tyres have about 3.0 - 3.5 mm tread depth after 86k km usage.

Update:

The 2 old tyres were never rotated but stay at the same rear corners throughout its life of 110-115K km.

Both exhibit even wear (between inside and outside edges) with (mild uneven) heel-toe wear around their circumferences, inside and outside.

Prior to free wheel alignment check, the alignment technician test drove the Avanza and found alignment ok. He too couldn't sense or detect the loosened RHS Front rack end assembly (which I didn't disclose to him).

I am wondering why the Front Left ride height is registered lower by 13 mm at 808 mm compared to Front Right of 821 mm?





Why would current Front cambers (after about 15 months or 25K kms travel) of Left -0°42' (Previous -0°15') and Right -0°49' (Previous -0°15') have such a huge difference by up to negative -61' combined?

The change in Front toes could probably be explained by change in Total Front Cambers during the 15 months, I supposed.

For the purpose of summary of alignment readings:
Front Cambers are -0°42' (Left) and -0°49' (Right) with Front Total Cambers of -1°31';

Front Toes are -0°01' toe-out (Left) and +0°03' toe-in (Right) with Front Total Toes of +0°02';

Rear Cambers are -0°10' (Left) and -0°03' (Right) with Rear Total Cambers of -0°13'; and,

Rear Toes are -0°09' toe-out (Left) and +0°03' toe-in (Right) with Rear Total Toes of -0°06' .

Previous rear alignment angle readings were unknown.

This post has been edited by zeng: Apr 20 2022, 09:11 PM

Thanks.

You have a valid point is suggesting there is no problem with my cambers, where being a live rear axle design the Rear cambers are non-adjustable without some kind of mods like shimming rear axle/hubs.

Besides, I had a known (to me) loosened free play at my Right front rack end assembly reported earlier on and I won't get to enjoy this free alignment checking but to pay up RM30 for alignment adjustment if I wish front suspension angles adjusted or altered at the time
..... which doesn't make sense for the loosened suspension parts at the moment.

However, since 15 months ago (of about 25K-27K kms) my Avanza has been drifting/veering slightly to the Left whilst driving straight ahead on straight roads/hiways and it has been capable of occupying the whole of left hand side lane in about 7-9 seconds with both hands temporarily off the steering wheel.
I'm bearing with this slight irritants/nuisance for now.

This irritant is, imho partly caused by the front and rear cambers namely:
Front Cambers -0°42'(Left) and -0°49'(Right); and
Rear Cambers -0°10'(Left) and -0°03'(Right).

Note:The front and rear toes seem to incline to pull the vehicle towards the Right imo but it is somehow being neutralized and overcome by the Left leaning cambers.

Correcting/adjusting the front cambers may give me a chance of getting the vehicle tracking straighter, if not rock solid straight, I believe.

Yes, cambers and toes in wheel alignment speak are normally look at or assessed on the per side (Left or Right) basis. Imho, this approach is premised upon and based on the ideal conditions that Left/Right cambers or toes on the same (Front or Rear) axle are always exactly equal at the same value whereby the Cross cambers and Cross toes (i.e left camber/toe Minus right camber/toe) are always Zero in an ideal world.

But alas, the real world is always not ideal whereby Left side cambers and toes are NOT exactly equal and same as the Right side cambers or toes on the same axle, all the more so with non-adjustable Rear Torsion Beam and current Rear solid live axles.

In the super majority of Asian cars and some Continental cars (including that of segments C and D cars) the stock original front strut system does not have provision for camber adjustment too (Edit: Strut bolts at stock original condition), i.e not ideal.

Hence I prefer to read suspension alignment angles in the perspective of Front/Rear Total cambers/toes.

Equally important is Cross cambers and Cross toes which is typically not exactly Zero in real world, but that is another different topic for another day.

For example referring to my Avanza's current suspension angles I intend to increase my Front Total Toes of +0°02' to say a range from +0°04' to +0°08' to overcome current driving experience of wobbling/loose/unsteady steering wheel movement on tekan-minyak acceleration in a curve or corner.
Exactly what Front camber/toe angles to adopt shall be influenced by the prevailing Rear cambers/toes angles at point of alignment adjustment.

Similarly one way to counter the Avanza propensity to oversteer on cornering experienced currently is to make/adjust my Rear Total cambers of -0°13' to be more negative like -0°30' or -1°00'.
Meanwhile, current Rear Total Toes of -0°06' is real real bad for oversteer phenomenon.

I found the road to modding Avanza rear live axle in Klang Valley for improved Rear suspension angles is slow, difficult and rather frustrating. Having said that , there is a far away (300+ km) JB alignment shop recommended above by @nightlordccc79 keeps the weak flame and hope alive.

This post has been edited by zeng: Apr 16 2022, 12:19 PM

I should have clarified earlier on that the sets of Lower Control Arm, outer tie-rod ends, shock absorbers, absorber links and sway bar bushes for the Front axle and Rear shock absorber sets were all replaced some 25k kms ago in December 2020 at a cost of some RM1750 .

However, all 4 absorber top mounts and front steering rack end assemblies were not replaced then, from which Front right rack end is currently found loosened (some 2 weeks ago) and yet to be replaced.

I'm from the camp of non-adjustable front/rear cambers and rear toes (commonly found in Front MacPherson and Rear Torsion Beam or solid fixed axle) is a bad thing in the context of flexibility in making adjustments to suspension alignment angles in individual tyre, hence leading to generally much lousier and less enjoyable driving experience or pleasure but hey..... it is cheaper to purchase and maintain compared to a complex independent rear and front suspensions normally found in very pricy segment D continental cars.

Interesting that you have front (total?) toe of -0.2 (degree or is it mm?) and cambers at -3° and -2°. Mind sharing what car this belongs to and how is highway high speed straight ahead driving experience, wobbly or steady?

Not sure whether the 0.5 refers to unit in mm or decimal degree or degree/minute?