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 LYN Christian Fellowship Thread Ver 15

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thomasthai
post Apr 27 2020, 08:17 AM

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QUOTE(Diamondhead @ Apr 26 2020, 09:38 PM)
Yeah i agree most people will interpret the verses differently, that why i also get confused when i ask different people. Anyhow, i will keep your advice in mind while reading.
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Christian scriptures are to be read with a contextual, geographical, historical, cultural, linguistical hermeneutics.

That means that the objective meaning of the text must be interpreted taking all those things into account.

It does not mean something to one person, and another to another person. It is not mystical, it is not a love letter from God to you, etc.

And scripture is the only authorative interpreter of itself. If a part of scripture is not clear, it must be interpreted by another part of scripture only.

No one gets to put his own meaning into scripture.
thomasthai
post Apr 27 2020, 08:40 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 27 2020, 10:55 AM)
You should try to understand what Gasout means, he's not saying God's word can be intepreted in different meanings (heretical) as he gave an example to what he means.

People have different situations in their life but the verse that speaks to him "Be Still and know that I am God" can be a love letter to him that ministered him as well as to other people of different situation.

I disagree that you said the Bible is not a love letter from God, it is.

On a site note; There are people who study theology but not christians themselves. They too depend on contextual, geographical, historical, cultural, linguistical hermeneutics and that can be a problem without the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:4 (NKJV) - And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,

1 Corrinthian 13-14 (NIV) - And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.…

To me it becomes a problem when one intepret the Bible based on just historical, cultural, lingustic or even just contextual alone, what I'm trying to say is that the Bible are not just historitcal text they are of spirit that is able to speak to different people in various different situation, I believe this was what gasout was trying to convey.
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I'm curious, what did lurkingaround say to me?

Yeah maybe I misunderstood what he meant.

What I meant was without a proper skill to interpret sciptures, anybody can make any text mean anything.

I see christians do that all the time, especially in this thread..
thomasthai
post Apr 28 2020, 11:16 AM

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Let me explain why I think it's dangerous for people to think that the bible is a love letter to them.

I see this going on all the time to Christians around me.

Let's take Jeremiah 29:11, the most misused bible verse I can think of.

QUOTE
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord , thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope.
Jeremiah 29:11 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/jer.29.11.NKJV


Many pastors have used this to preach that God is going to solve all your problems and give you a wonderful life. I myself have heard this kind of sermons probable half a dozen times in the past year alone.

If you read the text in context, God was talking to the Israelite exiles in babylonia, it is a promise that God is going to rescue them one day.

If you are not an Israelite living at that time, there is no reason that this text will anyhow apply to you.

Yet this is one of the most popular bible verse that Christians go to, and false teachers use to tickle the ears of those.

Not every verse in the bible is talking to you.
thomasthai
post Apr 28 2020, 11:31 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 28 2020, 10:25 AM)
What he said is not important, he seem to throw verses at people, fault finding all the time.

I agree whole heartedly with you, God's words cannot mean something it doesn't say. But there is something I wanted to say with regards to this.

Jesus have repeatedly said...He is not of this world, meaning He doesn't originate from this world and Jesus also repeatedly said; his kingdom is not of the world's kingdom. Jesus also said Whoever has seen Him also has seen the Father.

So it reason to understand Our Father in Heaven is not Jewish. Though Jesus was born as a Jew but his origin is not Jewish, He was born by the power of God's Holy Spirit, originally a spirit being, who was always God and never a Jew before the virgin birth. There is a reason why God chose Israel and I don't believe they were chosen because God's pattern of thought is Jewish origin or Jewish way of thinking. 

I find it uncomfortable the saying God's word must be understood in historical, cultural, lingustic and contextual intepretation of jewish understanding because it can fall dangerously back to mere human intepretation rather than by God's spirit.

Though I perfectly understand why we need to look at the Jewish settings in understanding God's word (some granted) but I think we need to understand God's word by understanding God as He and His Kingdom's perspective as per originally Heaven's perspective which is not Jewish's origin at the core.
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Hmm without going through the whole bible and making a sweeping generalisation of all the texts, I just want to say in general, the objective meaning of a text must be read in a way how the intended audience understood it at that time.

When God spoke to the Jews, He had to speak it in a way that a jew would understand. If He had spoken His revelation in say chinese or tamil, using idioms and parables, how could the jews understand anything.

thomasthai
post Apr 28 2020, 11:49 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 28 2020, 11:40 AM)
I think it would be right to look at the entire sermon of what was preached to judge fairly. Too often we see negative criticism thrown on the internet against pastors that are selective snippet of what was said.

If God does not give you hope in life or if you believe God will not involve himself in your troubles of life, then where do you place your hope then?
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I'm not saying that God does'nt give hope, but the hope promised is in the afterlife.

It can be damaging to Christians if they believe that everything will be good in this life, no sickness, no pain.

I have seen my friends dying of diseases while believing in a false hope that God is going to heal them.

But biblical hope is that we can rejoice even when we are suffering and in pain.

I barely hear pastors preach pain and suffering except in the Reformed community.
thomasthai
post Apr 28 2020, 11:55 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 28 2020, 11:43 AM)
Same thing I would ask of you, if God's truth is something that's confine only to Jewish culture, how do you approach a Chinese or a Tamil in the sharing the Gospel when the person say it's not relevant to his culture and in the person's defense it's just a jewish religion, doesn't apply to him or her?
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No, I'm not saying the truth is confined in the jewish culture.

Truth can be translated to any languages by a skilled person.

But the person needs to first understand hebrew.

Remember the muslim guy aral who came in demanding to know where did Jesus claim he is God?

Despite showing him many times Jesus claimed to be I AM, he doesn't understand what is the significance of it.

Any jew will tell you that's the sacred name of God.

But meaning can be translated to any language so people can understand the text.
thomasthai
post Apr 28 2020, 12:40 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 28 2020, 12:19 PM)
I disagree.

Why do you need hope in heaven when it's already heaven?

If truly God's proclaimation of hope is only in heaven, there's no need for Him to minister the people on earth, He should just let them continue to suffer as they were.

For me it's not right to use death as something to negate what God promise because everyone has their beginning and end in the book of life so how death come would not matter. This is how I divide where death and God's promise is concern.

I don't know why we always see death as something diminishing as if life is over.
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So you believe that Jesus already brought heaven to earth?

I think the kingdom now theology (or dominionism) is an error. We can argue about it all day but nobody can demonstrate all christians live a long and healthy and good life.

Perhaps let me recommend you a great book by RC Sproul. Excellent book.

https://www.ligonier.org/store/surprised-by...ring-hardcover/

I believe God is glorified even when we are sick and dead.
thomasthai
post May 1 2020, 06:13 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Apr 28 2020, 02:37 PM)
Firstly, No. nothing to what you are implying.

Yes God promise hope and future but doesn't mean there will not be trouble. Jesus clearly said we will have trouble as Christians in this world because till this day, the devil still seeking whom he may devour.  If any Christians can be easily devoured, the devil don't have to seek, just easy picking anytime anyday. Hope you get me. It defeats the purpose to say hope is only for heaven. It's already heaven, what hope do you need there?

But fact remains, God uttered the word hope and future because there are people God has watched over that the devil find hard to devour.

I find that to say God is glorified wehn we are sick and dead to be troubling. No where do I find any verse supporting that. I think it's more accurate to say God is glorified when we suffer being persecuted for his name sake. That is blibical and supported by scripture. Death even but under persecution. That is legitimate as it is recorded. But no where do I find in scripture God glory in our sickness or death, that to me is just man's saying, never God.

So if there are Christians who live long, healthy and good life, do you deny God brought heaven on earth for those who are blessed? Now I'm not minimizing Christians who are suffering but can you take Christians who are suffering as the default theology over those that God blessed? Why do we not see and understand when God say..According to your Faith so it shall be? We are blessed or curse by the words of our own tongue. When one belives that God glory in our sickness, I'm afraid that is a curse brought upon ourselves and not by God.

If only I can bring in the example of the 12 spies sent to report on the promise land, what happened to them is basically an example for all of us. When we don't believe in what God says, it's to our own demise.
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I'm not saying that God cannot bless His people.

Bible says the rain falls on the just and unjust. God's common grace is extended even to non-believers.

But not allowing suffering and pain is not consistent with the bible too. It is a given that we all grow old and sick and die.

1 Peter 1 says trials are proof of your faith, and is better than gold.

QUOTE(gashout @ Apr 28 2020, 08:25 PM)
I concur with unknown warrior.

Bible is a book of good news. Not sorrow struggles and sadness. Yes there are. But the overall theme is God has some great news for you.

Being Christian again is very difficult. Try fulfilling all words by God. It's very difficult. Choosing to be Christian doesn't promise a sweet life. Carrying the cross is difficult. Putting down oneself is difficult.

I believe in hope. What's life if there's no hope.

And indeed Jeremiah 29:11 states well God has good plans for everyone. But up to us to choose to lead the lives we want and ultimately the consequences of it.

I can't understand if one says hey read Jeremiah but it has nothing to do with you, it's just historical book, you know. Nothing personal here. After reading, you may move on to the next page. We may as well read civilization history books.

Bible isn't just any book. It has everything to do with you.
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The bible is a book primarily of revelation of salvation and how God brought about the Messiah through the people of Israel.

It really is about Jesus more than anything.

If you read yourself as the hero of each story, you are going to end up in a lot of trouble. That's what most people are doing today.

I've heard of sermon preached where we are all Davids and all our life problems are Goliath, etc. I'm sure most of you heard of it too.

It takes the focus away from God.

That's why most people think of God as a universal genie that will grant them all health, wealth.



thomasthai
post May 4 2020, 09:05 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ May 1 2020, 10:46 AM)
I think this has to do with what different school of thoughts on God's sovereignity, predestination and matters related to this.

For me I see while it's true there will be trials but the demise of the trials like sickness or accident are never God's. It's usually the devil.

This can be seen in the incident with Job. We are given insight in this. There is a reason why matters relating to Satan is revealed in the Bible, It help us to understand who God is.

The devil wanted to inflict pain & suffering on Job, God never said he wanted this, the devil wanted this. Even in the NT there are enough warnings with regards to the one who kill, steal and destroy.

The nature of God has always been to give life, never death, in fact God calls death as enemy. If death is called an enemy, it would contradict God to give something to his children that will end up in death prematurely. And if you read the Bible, there's a phrase in Hebrews 12:9

Hebrews 12:9 (NKVV) - Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?

The phrase there live would also contradict the notion God gives us sickness that end up in death prematurely. There's no lesson to be learn in the chastening in this case.

I do think it is important to correctly attribute which is which under the New Covenant.
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I never said God gives death, but God allows death and evil even to His glory.

You might have confused God's will and God's predestination.

God does not will evil to happen because that would make Him evil, but He allows evil to happen for the purpose of His will.

Back to the scriptures,

I think I've repeated this probably too many times here regarding the perspicuity of scriptures. If the bible does not mean what it says, and does not say what it means, there is no way that man can understand it.

For 2000 years many people have tried many ways to interpret the scriptures, but only one way has always prevailed. There is objectivity built into God's words so that anyone will come to the same conclusion.

Too many people have tried to put implicit meanings into a text, and false teachers have always thrived on this.

I know you won't agree to this, I just hope you will see it one day.
thomasthai
post May 4 2020, 09:50 AM

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QUOTE(gashout @ May 4 2020, 09:16 AM)
how is it God knows everything and have perfect plan for us, yet some didn't have a good life in the same time God knows all these things will happen. I had to tell him the bigger good of His plan and most importantly it's the choices in life that we must bear consequences. Anyway, my friend wasn't keen to accept a God who may cause death in some people in order to reveal the greater Good. (But his intention has been not to know Christianity but to put down in every manner which means his heart isn't ready. We'll discuss again when his intention is right).

Thank you for your explanation in this matter. God bless.
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For this question, and I think the best answer to 'does God allow sickness and death for a believer', I have to appeal to Revelations. This is verse I go to for the most comfort in times of affliction.
QUOTE
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and  be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

Revelation 21:1‭-‬4 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/rev.21.1-4.NKJV
If God promised a good and happy life to all believers for this lifetime (before death), this verse would make absolutely no sense.

It is when God brings about the new heavens and the new earth do we live our best life.

Now I'm not saying that God does'nt bless us at all during this life, He can and He does, in varying measures. But the fullness of the blessing only comes in the furure.

When people asks me this question about how does God allow evil for the glory of Him, I tell them about the crucifixion of Jesus.

God allowed His Son, the only person that is sinless in history to be crucified by the hands of evil men, to bring sinners to salvation is the biggest proof to this reality.

Was God happy to crucify His Son? No. Did God allow it? Yes. Did God planned it? Yes. Was anything out of God's control? No. Was there evil involved? Yes. Did God glorify Himself? Yes! By bringing salvation grace to His creation when they did not deserved it.

Light only shines in the darkest of nights.

This post has been edited by thomasthai: May 4 2020, 09:53 AM
thomasthai
post May 4 2020, 11:03 AM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ May 4 2020, 10:55 AM)
But you must be aware, everyone will claim that God has opened their minds to understand scripture... lol...
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I friend, I read that you were a protestant before becoming RC.

Care to share what happened?
thomasthai
post May 5 2020, 07:08 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ May 4 2020, 01:33 PM)

What I disagree is the saying God gets the glory for people to "remain" in suffering, where nothing happens.


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I didn't say God allows pain and suffering needlessly.

Probably got lost in translation somewhere.

Anyway let's move on. icon_rolleyes.gif
thomasthai
post May 5 2020, 07:11 AM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ May 4 2020, 06:48 PM)
Quite a long story but I will try my best to simplify it here.

My experience with Protestantism in general started quite young, as I was sent to a Lutheran church-affiliated kindergarten/childcare centre. Even on Sundays my parents allowed one elderly lady to bring me to that same church for services and Sunday school classes. I've also been to Methodist churches for other occasions as some of my close relatives are Methodists. I've even signed up for Baptist-run correspondence Bible lessons, read magazines such as The Plain Truth, etc. I even have discussions with those door-to-door JW folks and read their tracts.

Ultimately somehow it dawned to me something can't be right there. So many different groups, all teaching different things about Jesus and Christianity, the necessity of baptism, etc... At that point of time, I was even considering Islam and Judaism as there were many similarities with Christianity too. Catholicism wasn't even one of the options then because I was brought up believing that Catholics worshiped idols.

So one day I was in my secondary school library (I attended mission school), I chanced upon some parts of the Catholic Encyclopedia. Interesting reading I would say, I never knew there were so much history, arts, culture, civilization intertwined with the Catholic Church as a whole. I also chanced upon a book published back in the 1940s, called Radio Replies. It is in Q&A form based on a radio program that was held over 5 years in Sydney, and most of my prejudices against Catholicism were answered within that book, although it wasn't an instantaneous "Saul to Paul" moment. I have to be honest, it took some time to accept some things which I have been conditioned to reject all my life such as devotion to Mary & the saints, but it was the principles and reasoning presented in that book that somehow sowed the seeds for my conversion.

Of course I didn't straightaway convert. I didn't want to make any hasty decision, so it took a few more years of studying, conversation with other Catholics, etc. Ultimately I believed God sent me a sign when I had to endure a medical condition which I survived. It took the doctors almost a week after I was hospitalised to find out what it was and proceeded to have an immediate surgery. Decades ago, diagnosis of that condition would have been almost fatal if not operated on within the first few days. Before the diagnosis was out, it was crazy. Pain and high fever until I was shivering uncontrollably. Of course, like any other human beings, I turn to the Divine when faced with things beyond my control. I asked God what do you want from me, is it my time to die now? I prayed the Rosary that I have learnt not long before that, imploring Jesus and Mary that should I survive this ordeal, I will fast-track my entry into the Catholic Church. So here I am today.
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I appreciate your sharing. I hope that we can have more constructive discussions in the near future. icon_rolleyes.gif
thomasthai
post Jun 30 2020, 06:51 AM

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To those who are interested to know:

1) The Son is NOT the Father, the Father is not the Spirit, the Spirit is not the Son.

The Son is God, the Father is God, the Spirit is God.

God is One in Essence and Three in Person.

This is the orthodox view of the Trinity.

2) 1Tim 3:16 is in every Greek manuscript. It is not the verse people go to when trying to claim forgery.

How is it a forgery?

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Jun 30 2020, 06:53 AM
thomasthai
post Jun 30 2020, 07:33 AM

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QUOTE(FLYING PANTIES @ Jun 30 2020, 07:18 AM)
1 Timothy 3 is the third chapter of the First Epistle to Timothy in the New Testament of the Christian Bible. The author has been traditionally identified as Paul the Apostle since as early as AD 180, although most modern scholars consider the letter pseudepigraphical, perhaps written as late as the first half of the second century AD.[/I]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_Timothy_3

The text is forgery and not the true work of Paul the Apostle.
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All of Paul's 13 epistles are already accepted as canon as early as 150/170AD.

The Muratorian fragment lists more than 80 percent of the New Testament as being read and circulated among churches in that time.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muratorian_fragment

Most 1st generation Christians who have met the apostles were probably still alive.

There is no evidence of Christians claiming Paul's letters to be forgery.

thomasthai
post Jun 30 2020, 07:53 AM

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QUOTE(FLYING PANTIES @ Jun 30 2020, 07:46 AM)
No one is claiming Paul's works to be a forgery. Dont change what I said. I said 1 Timothy 3 are forgery.

"While seven of the letters attributed to Paul are almost universally accepted as authentic (Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, Philemon), four are just as widely judged to be pseudepigraphical, i.e. written by unknown authors under Paul's name: Ephesians and the Pastorals (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus)."

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Friend, your link claims that the 2 books of Timothy are pseudepigraphical, but you are saying only the 3rd chapter of 1st Timothy is forgery?

So which one is it?

Whole 2 books or on the 3rd chapter?

Or did you not know timothy was written by Paul?

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Jun 30 2020, 07:54 AM
thomasthai
post Jun 30 2020, 07:57 AM

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QUOTE(FLYING PANTIES @ Jun 30 2020, 07:55 AM)
Does it matter? It's proven to be forgery. What are you going to deny?
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Looks like you dint know Timothy was written by Paul.

sweat.gif
thomasthai
post Jun 30 2020, 08:08 AM

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QUOTE(FLYING PANTIES @ Jun 30 2020, 08:01 AM)
Why are you changing the topic? You haven't answer my doubts.
While seven of the letters attributed to Paul are almost universally accepted as authentic (Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, Philemon), four are just as widely judged to be pseudepigraphical, i.e. written by unknown authors under Paul's name: Ephesians and the Pastorals (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus)

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You dont know what you are doubting.

You are claiming something different to what your link says.

You said you are not claiming Paul's work to be forgery, but then claim the 3rd chapter of 1 Tim written by Paul to be forgery.

You are contradicting yourself.
thomasthai
post Jun 30 2020, 08:28 AM

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QUOTE(FLYING PANTIES @ Jun 30 2020, 08:11 AM)
Why are you spinning around?  Even the third chapter of the 1 Tim fall under 1 Tim. What's the issue here? Now, how do you explain this forgery?

While seven of the letters attributed to Paul are almost universally accepted as authentic (Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, Philemon), four are just as widely judged to be pseudepigraphical, i.e. written by unknown authors under Paul's name: Ephesians and the Pastorals (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus)
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One of the early church father Polycarp (69-155AD), a disciple of Apostle John, used the 2 books of Timothy in his writings.

That predates the dates assigned to the writing of the 2 Timothy's in your link.

And the Muratorium fragment confirms that all of Timothy has been read and circulated among churches very early on.

Nobody claims that only the 3rd chapter is forged.
thomasthai
post Jun 30 2020, 08:45 AM

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QUOTE(FLYING PANTIES @ Jun 30 2020, 08:31 AM)
So you agree the 1 Timothy is forged?
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Oh, I see you are here to twist words and pick a fight.

I think I have exposed your contradictions and ignorance in a few posts above, even non-believers can see.

You are not here to genuinely ask questions.


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