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 LYN Christian Fellowship V14 (Group)

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yaokb
post Sep 12 2019, 09:31 PM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Sep 12 2019, 09:12 PM)
Well God told His apostles, "he who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me". Thus apostolic succession is a very important, something lacking in Protestantism.
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16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

Luke 10: 16-17

out of context.

Jesus was not only speaking to his 12 disciples but to the 70 He sent out.
yaokb
post Sep 12 2019, 11:01 PM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Sep 12 2019, 10:03 PM)
It doesn't matter, the 70 were bishops or deacons of the early Church anyway. He told that to the 70 to prepare the cities He would visit. In other parts of Scripture, the 12 apostles were Christ's closest collaborators and it was Peter who was the head the apostles.

To make sure that the apostles’ teachings would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, “[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first three generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, and the generation Timothy will teach.

We know that Christ established His Church and called the Apostles, devoting three years to their training. These Apostles He appointed as constitutional officials in His Church, giving them the threefold power to teach, rule and sanctify others in His name. But it is to be noted that He commissioned them, as the appointed officials of His Church, to "teach all nations" and promised to be with them "all days till the end of the world." Now it is clear that the Apostles themselves could not "teach all nations;" nor could they personally live "all days till the end of the world." Yet the Church had to continue, and with the constitution Christ had given it. It follows that the power and the authority of the Apostles must have been transmitted to their official successors. For evidence that this did happen we can scarcely look to the New Testament itself, which was written whilst the Apostles were still alive; but documents from the earliest days of the Church record the fact. Thus St. Clement of Rome, writing before the end of the 1st century, tells us that the Apostles appointed others to succeed them St. Clement knew the Apostles personally, and is himself mentioned by name in the New Testament, Philip, IV, 3. In the 2nd century St Irenaeus in his controversy with the Gnostics who claimed to possess secret doctrines derived from the Apostles, pointed out the publicly known succession of the Bishops in the Church from the Apostles, enumerating particularly the Bishops of Rome as successors of St. Peter, and declaring that no authority could belong to the teachings of those not in union with these official successors of the Apostles.
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It seems to be a far reach by any measure to label the 70 as anything other than disciples. Deacons were named so only in the book of Acts and bishops did not appear until churches were established by Paul all over the gentile world. OK i admit it may be semantics, but to base a teaching on a scripture taken out of context, matters, doesn't it?

And as for Clements, even Catholic scholars themselves doubt that the Clements mentioned in Philippians 4:3 is the St Clements you refer to.
source : http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04012c.htm

I am not Catholic but it does seem to me that a lot of the RCC teachings are based on traditions and customs rather than scripture.

Doesn't that make you uncomfortable?
yaokb
post Sep 13 2019, 07:17 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 13 2019, 04:58 PM)
While I can agree what you're tying to imply, this Faith + Work is not really a straight forward answer but it can be.

No where in the book of James 2 teaches us that dead works leads to disqualification to heaven.

it teaches us that it leads to the phrase worthless or unprofitable, KJV uses the word dead. Meaning unprofitable Christian lives or defeated life vs a victorious one.

The difference is in there.

Else to say Works is require for Salvation would make Ephesians 2:8-9 to be not true.

For the phrase in verse 10 of the same chapter

10.For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.

tell us we are indeed created to do good works, we are designed for it and yet doesn't mean lack of it disqualify us to Salvation.
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It seems to me that both of you are actually on the same page.

is PJ basically saying that works are the fruits of true faith?
(James 2)

is UW is saying even if works does not appear, salvation is assured?

can both be correct, under the right circumstances?

PJ, are u saying,
Faith is the seed.
Works are the fruits
Works must manifest, given time, if the faith is genuine?


UW, What if a person professes faith but chooses to continue in his old ways, actually refusing to yield to the Holy Spirit and be transformed, is that "faith" real?

When I put all this together, i see a clearer picture between faith and works.

It explains the thief on the cross ( Luke 23 )
It explains Paul and James seemingly differing viewpoints
it even explains Jesus' parable on the fig tree (Luke 13)

yaokb
post Sep 14 2019, 12:37 PM

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QUOTE(prophetjul @ Sep 14 2019, 08:38 AM)
As i have mentioned to you, heaven is not the purpose of faith in God. Its a consequence that you are only focussing on.
To the Jew, faith is the now, on earth. Our faith is messih Jesus is for living and being light in this dark world, and reflecting His glory.

Works is not required for salvation. Faith in Messiah Jesus is.
Yet Faith encompasses works. Therefore Faith demands works. That is the understanding of faith (Aman) by Jews and explained by James.


Remember James pointed to the faith of devils too. This is ungodly faith. i guess it does not save?
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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 14 2019, 09:00 AM)
Of course I'm talking about the end result and no where did I suggest Faith is not in the living now.
We need to establish correctly how you get Salvation which is by faith in Christ and by God's Grace which is the Gospel at the core because if we don't, the rest will be faulty. That is why knowing the consequence is important. The bible says those who have this hope, purifies himself. (1 John 3:3)

You're just too negative of your view of what I say and what I believe in, that is the problem.

That leads You to always think I'm always suggesting disobedience or suggest licentious lifestyle.

Haih prophetjul.

So that settles it, What you're talking is what I'm talking.

I've always strongly preach that Faith in Christ is what saves us, not works. So whether you have enough work, lack of it, fallen short, at the end of the day we ALL still appeal to Christ,
NEVER our works. With that being said.......

The works or the fruits are the work of God so we should not preach Me Me Me I I I need to do this or that, We need to preach God, IE CHRIST because only God is able to change the person. Else we can't really work out our Salvation. There is no way.

The focus of this has been WRONG all the while. We keep preaching you must repent, YOU must work, YOU must show fruit..when we should be preaching Look to Christ the person who IS GRACE that is the root and power of life so that repentance can come. That is the Gospel IMO.
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Psalm 133 King James Version (KJV)
133 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

2 It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;

3 As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the Lord commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.


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