Erk ... the your work's definition ... the obedience to the Laws (not sure where that comes from) is not right.

In Rom 3:20 work mainly denotes our conduct, our behavior. Paul is saying that no fallen person can be justified before God by his conduct. Thus, in that verse work does not refer to an activity or a task that we do; it refers to particular deeds in our behavior. In Greek this word denotes acts, actions, activities. It includes everything of our actions. Our actions involve deeds, conduct, and many other things as well. Therefore, the work of faith refers to all the acts, actions, of faith.

Of course, if the source was their work is from their own .... yes, they will credit it as theirs. The Lord did not approve that their work since the source is not from Him or according to His will.

There is many instances that are positive; like Matt 25:2
His master said to him, Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful over a few things; I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master.

And Paul in 1 Tim 4:7
I have fought the good fight; I have finished the course; I have kept the faith.

Like you said, there is the usual danger of work according to our flesh. But neither can we go to the other extreme that it is only of the Lord and no action. Even good works apart from God is good flesh ... also flesh.

But I like to point out your statements:



There is an underlying assumption or presupposition ... that God and man are separate entities during this kind of experience.

Consider the union in life as describe by the abiding in the vine. And you should see the answer.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Aug 2 2018, 10:37 AM

Yeah ... I notice that and not attributing to it to him. It's hard to do that on a thread .... and may come across

Just stating a principle and not because I attribute it to what he says (though his earlier thread uses those words -)

I wanted to use pure monergism .... but that is ok I hope

@Haledoch

Sure. Good flesh is still flesh and is evil in the sight of God. Don't think that flesh is evil because it is negative like anger, murder, fornication etc.

One may be so ethical, so right, so righteous, so moral, so good, but altogether according to the flesh. Another may be bad to the uttermost according to the flesh. But the source is the same.

We all love our good flesh

Ah ... the moral laws. But the Lord has uplifted it so high (inward motives) in Matt 5-7 that it is virtually impossible. It is so high that only God (the Most High) can do it *wink*

All I am saying it is not merely an outward action. What you are saying other than the adherence to the law is somewhat there but not all.

It is our living, attitude and conduct and deeds. It is definitely not adherence to the law. Our whole person ... what is it living. If I am living money, my thoughts, actions, attitude is all related to money.

For example, I connect work with faith:

1) An unbeliever accepts the word, faith is produced in him, and through this faith he is born of God and put into Christ. Now that he has faith, certain actions are sure to follow. For example, he may spontaneously declare, "O Lord Jesus, You are so precious!" Then he may go home and speak to his wife and children about believing in the Lord Jesus. These are are works of faith. Faith implies God, grace, power, light, and many other items. For this reason, when a new believer preaches Christ to his wife, the faith within him may enlighten him concerning his attitude toward her. Then he will confess his shortcomings to the Lord and apologize to his wife concerning certain matters.

2) The work of faith includes all the actions that issue out of our living faith. This includes our relationship with others and all our behavior. Before a certain person was saved, he may have been unkind to others and harsh in many aspects of his behavior. But once he has faith in the Lord, this faith will not allow him to treat others in such an unkind way.

If it is of faith, we are immediately assured, and our hearts are spontaneously calmed down. It seems that we have the assurance that God will definitely accomplish His work. There is no need for struggling. There is no need for anxiety. There is not even the need to worry about exercising.

Yes. Man and God have become one (1 Cor 6:17). The Christian life is to live the Triune God. Faith joins you to the Triune God.

When you experience the living faith, it is the Triune God living in your living. It's a mystery.

If you ask me, is it my working ? I say it is the Triune God's working.

If you ask me, is it the Triune God's working only, no, I am also working cooperating with His working. But it is effortless because He is the One working.

Two lives are living as one yet our human identity is not destroyed. This is to abide in the Lord and He abides in you.

The fruits are spontaneous and effortless yet we still bear fruit.

So, when Paul says, He speaks in Christ. Is he speaking? He will say Christ is speaking. Is Christ speaking only? No, Paul is speaking too. Christ spoke in Paul's speaking because they have become one in the union of life.


OK I stop here.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Aug 2 2018, 12:51 PM

Again, I think you still didn't get what I meant. What is the source of this feat? It is not merely "we make to trust God over our own common sense and rationality". This is almost 'blind' faith borders on tempting God

Rather, one must ask if Charles Blondin experience God in his spirit and the Lord walks with him to walk over the tightrope ... then perhaps yes. Is it an issue of a contact with God?

What is the source (again) of this action?

God has accomplished everything for man. Since everything has been accomplished, certain “facts” exist. And since they are existing “facts,” man does not have to accomplish what has already been accomplished. All of God’s works are complete.

Faith is to acknowledge that what God has said and done is true. Faith is to accept the facts, that is, to acknowledge them as facts. Faith is to substantiate these spiritual facts in our experiences.

For example, God is love (a fact). We cannot love our enemies much less those no according to our taste. But, one morning, you touched and contacted God in the Word. The Lord touches you and supplies you through the word (rhema). You are filled with joy. Maybe the Lord shines that on you love conditionally. You confess and you are filled and supplied. This is faith infused into you. Then, throughout the days, you find everyone is lovely including your bad-mood wife

The abiding in the Lord, brings in God's divine love as His riches, into you through your faith (substantiating Him in the word).

This is the faith revealed in the Bible. Again, my point is the source, the element, the essence that is behind a work.

Wah, that is too much to say on the difference between how God works in the OT and New. Suffice to say:

The commandment which Moses was commanding the children of Israel was not too difficult for them, nor was it distant (v. 11). It was not in heaven that they should say, "Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us that we may hear it and do it?" (v. 12). Nor was it across the sea that they should say, "Who will go across the sea for us and bring it to us that we may hear it and do it?" (v. 13). But the commandment was very near to them, even in their mouth and in their heart, that they might do it (v. 14). In Romans 10:6-10 Paul relates the word spoken here to Christ for the New Testament believers to receive for salvation.

The law in the OT was a type or a picture of the Word of God today. The laws describes the Law-Giver, the Person. He is righteous, love, light and holy.

Matt 5 describes the constitution of the kingdom people: no temper, no lust, no self .... only one Person who qualifies this.

In Matthew 12:28 the Lord says, “If I by the Spirit of God cast out demons, then the kingdom of God is come upon you.” This indicates that the kingdom is the reality of the Spirit of God, which is the reality of Christ. The Spirit is the reality of the Lord Jesus, for the Spirit is His person, and His person is His reality. The kingdom, therefore, is the spiritual realization of the Lord Jesus. When we realize Him spiritually, we have the kingdom in its reality.

In Matthew 13: The kingdom of God is the Lord Jesus as the seed of life sown into His believers, God’s chosen people, and developing into a realm which God may rule as His kingdom in His divine life.

So, if you live the Person of Christ, you are already fulfilling the laws INDIRECTLY. This is why Paul says, when we live according to the spirit, you fulfilled the laws (Rom. 8:4)

The Person who made the laws is HERE, why go for the photograph, but not the Person itself? He is stricter, higher, more demanding than the laws. But He is the One doing it.


I don't get you. It is not that John Calvin systematizes the doctrine of the Trinity. Why blame him? Almost every biblical believers throughout the centuries believe in the Trinity (there is a long period of discussion and consolidation from 2nd century onwards). Even if John Calvin kills someone... that doesn't make the truth false.

Your two statements already contracting each other: "Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, as one true God. There is no distinct persons in there, just one true God." Then why use Father, Son and Holy Spirit then if there is one person? Why does the Bible reveals these names then?

I don't think it's about Calvin at all.

The same Son of Man in Revelation 3 also says:

21 He who overcomes, to him I will give to sit with Me on My throne, as I [Son of Man] also overcame and sat with My Father on His throne.

Phil. 2 cover this mah:

Verses 6 through 7 say, "Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God a treasure to be grasped, But emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, becoming in the likeness of men." Christ was entitled to lawfully hold His existence in the form of God; He is worthy to hold this as His right. Therefore, He "did not consider being equal with God a treasure to be grasped." He "emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, becoming in the likeness of men." The mind of Christ (Paul referring to) involves Him giving up His legal right.

Yes and no. This is not easy to convey for you must have a background of the immanent Trinity and economical Trinity. To say that submission were something that had no basis in the being of God will result in God acting in an arbitrary manner. This is modalism too.

The Son said that He is one with Father (equal with God) yet economically, He says the Father is greater than he. The Son's position was a voluntary choice of our Lord. Philippians 2 is very difficult to explain. But it is also a most divine passage. We are standing on holy ground. It seems as if there was a conference in the Godhead in the beginning in which a plan was made to create the universe. In this plan the divine persons of the Godhead agreed with each other and came to the understanding that the Father would be the representation of authority. But if there was only authority without submission, authority could not be established, because authority is not something isolated. Hence, there must be submission in the universe.

In the Godhead there is equality, yet it is happily arranged that the Father should be the Head and that the Son should submit. The Father became the representation of authority, and the Son became the representation of submission. There is an order where Father is first and the Son second. There is submission in the Godhead (in a sense created by the Son) before the universe ... this is only possible if God is Triune

We are human. Submission for us is simple. We can submit as long as we humble ourselves. But the Lord’s submission is not a simple matter. The Lord’s submission is more difficult than His creation of the heavens and the earth. In order to submit He had to empty Himself of all the glory, power, position, and image in His deity. He also had to take on the form of a slave. Only then could He receive the qualification of submission. Hence, submission is something created by the Son of God.

Now, this obedience MUST NOT be understood on the basis of our human obedience RATHER, our human submission should be understood on the BASIS of the submission of the Son eternally. It is not our human "command structures" or "hierarchy" or "boss-employee relationship". Rather the Son's relation to the Father is the model of our relation to the Father.

This is NOT subordinationism! The language is misleading really because the belief is the Son is somehow less than the Father because He is subordinate to the Father. In its most extreme form is Arianism.

So, the Son's obedience is not inferiority. Technically, in terms of being, He is equal to the Father. In terms of "relation", he is from the Father. Well, in terms of order (not rank) I have mentioned above.

(I stop here ... there is another part on the risky matter of the the possibility that the Son could not return as a man ..) ...

This post has been edited by pehkay: Aug 12 2018, 09:19 AM

John 15:5 - The Lord is the Vine.

John 11:25 - The Lord is the Life.

The tree of life is the embodiment of God as life, the embodiment of the divine life.

Hahaha ... The Lord likened Himself to a vine tree (grapevine). Definitely not a tall tree. *wink*. I am glad the Bible is not a book of botany

Unfortunately I don't tend to use the number analogies but I will agree with you that Unitarians lacked the understanding (or choose to ignore) in two points:

1) confuse the biblical distinction between the ontological Trinity and the economic Trinity, conflate the two concepts into one, and thus assign the characteristics of the economic Trinity to the ontological Trinity.

2) do not believe in the coexistence (exists essentially at the same time eternally) (Matthew 3:16-17) and coinherence (John 14:11) of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. The mutual indwelling of Person within one another is one aspect of the oneness. There is no physical representation for this.

They (Uni) tend to share only the FULL force of one side of the truth. A fair person will list out the FULL force of both sides & let the text speaks for itself.

I will be fair that ordinary Christians (and even theologians) subconsciously having tritheistic tendencies (Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology: ...). They do not differentiate that Triune God is distinct yet not separate. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three distinct centers of consciousness and volition, or "I’s," eternally involved in loving subject-object relationship. For example, commenting on John 10:30 (“I and the Father are one”). Yet, the modern usage of "person" (vs the ancient use) cannot be stretched too far.

When the full force of both sides is displayed, one will see the Threeness in His immanent one Being and the oneness in the economical aspect of three. One will even see the "modalistic" identification of the Father and Son (Isa 9:6) and Son and Spirit (1 Cor 15:45; 2 Cor 3:17) because these are economical verses. Instance after instance that the three of the trinity, while distinct in their respective hypostases, operate as one in their actions. Thus, whatever one of the Trinity does must be understood as being done by the other two as well. There is never an action of one of the Trinity that is independent of the other two. While the personal distinctions among the three are maintained, any operation of the Trinity is one operation, and hence when one acts, the other two are identified with the one.

I tried to be precise in layman terms but .... sometimes, you still need to use a term to convey.

The distinction of the Three is easy to understand.

This is easy to understand but not so easy . For example, we do not say the Father or the Spirit became a man ... yet, the Bible clearly states God was manifested in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16). We do not say the Father died on the cross (a heresy) yet Acts 20:28 that the blood that Christ shed on the cross was God's own blood.

.....

A few more points:

1) To coexist is to exist together at the same time. To coinhere is to exist in one another, to dwell in one another. To say that the Father and the Son coexist means that they exist together. But to say that the Father and the Son coinhere means that they dwell in one another.

This explains the oneness of the Triune God in our experience.


2) The immanent and economical ... er ... let say urk ... ohm .... to put in layman terms is a bit hard.

One refers to the being of the Triune God i.e. in His life and His being He is one, always one, eternally one. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are never separated. They are always coinhering with one another, living within one another.

God's economy refers to God's plan, arrangements, work, and activities. God's economy is to work Himself as life and everything into His chosen and redeemed people so that they may be His many sons and members of the Body of Christ to express Him. in order to carry out this tremendous purpose, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit each have a distinct function. (More can be say). You see the Threeness more economically yet they are so One that each can be identified with other.

E.g. The Father planned, the Son redeemed through His vicarious death, and the Spirit seals the redeemed ones (Eph. 1:4-14).

This explains the Jesus praying to the Father. This is economical. The Father left or forsake the Son economically on the cross (but not essentially). This is easily explained as the economical Trinity.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Aug 21 2018, 09:26 AM

Reminds me when I studied quantum mechanics during my college years. That was when I was fully convinced how awesome it mirrors the nature of God .... the duality of particle - wave characteristics ... of light in the quantum level. Well .. at least the Copenhagen interpretation.

I was so crazy to think when the protons and neutrons each contain three quarks ... I was like whoah Triune God - nature points at it


Indeed, I agree ... it is a paradox ... and/not a contradiction. Most people don't understand this difference

This post has been edited by pehkay: Aug 29 2018, 09:34 AM

Guys, the matter of the kingdom in the will of God is not so narrow as just miracles

Just in Matthew alone, minimum, Matt 5-7, 13, 24-25 are specially is about the kingdom.

For example, the records in 5-7 shows the reality of the kingdom of the heavens as the reality of the overcoming church life (Matt 16:17). It gives us a view of a certain kind of reality, the reality of the high standard of the divine life.

Grave sucking ..... (sweats) I learn new things ....

I think your argument comes with a premise that those who have the Spirit of Holy Spirit = the gifts. If we don't have the gifts, we don't have the Spirit of God in us.

That is almost indefensible position to take. The indwelling Spirit in us operating (Paul's word in 2:13) definitely do not equals the outward gifts in the Holy Spirit. If it is so, most of us are unsaved

Thomas is coming along the line that the Corinthians abused the gifts and it is not longer profitable for the building up of the Body. It is not that having the outward manifestation of the gifts are wrong.

Cheers!

This post has been edited by pehkay: Oct 24 2018, 03:38 PM

Lol. I am afraid, this "truth" going to hurt more if we stand on it. XD

1) From a scriptural point of view, concerning the believers’ receiving the Holy Spirit economically, that is, the Holy Spirit’s falling upon them, only five cases are referred to. Two of them are for the accomplishment of the baptism in the Holy Spirit. These are the instances which took place on the day of Pentecost and in the house of Cornelius.

The other three, the cases of the Samaritan believers, Saul of Tarsus, and the twelve believers in Ephesus, are all considered extraordinary, needing some members of the Body of Christ to identify them with the Body by the laying on of hands.

Besides these five cases, in many cases of conversion, such as the three thousand (2:41), the five thousand (4:4), the Ethiopian eunuch (8:36, 38-39a), the many who believed in Antioch (11:20-21, 24), the many cases in chapters thirteen and fourteen under Paul’s preaching ministry, Lydia in Philippi (16:14-15), the jailer in Philippi (16:33), the believers in Thessalonica (17:4), the believers in Berea (17:10-12), the believers in Athens (17:34), the ruler of the synagogue and many other believers in Corinth (18:8), and the believers in Ephesus (19:18-19), there is no mention of the believers’ receiving the Holy Spirit economically—the Holy Spirit’s falling upon the believers— because in all these cases the believers were brought into the Body of Christ through their believing in a normal way, and they had no particular reason for some member of the Body of Christ to bring them into the identification with the Body by the laying on of hands. According to the principle of God’s New Testament economy, they all should have received the Holy Spirit essentially for life and economically for power in a normal way through their believing into Christ.

So, we cannot generalize a principle just because *some* cases worked as there also a difference between the essential Spirit (breath) and the economical Spirit (wind / upon the believers). Furthermore, the gifts in Romans are not miraculous gifts .... and the charge is walk according to the spirit.

2) By your definition, millions and millions of believers from the 2nd centuries onward, from the Catholic church to Luther, Calvin, mystics, Wesley, Brethren etc etc do not receive the Spirit at all and, thus, unsaved???

3) I won't even list the number of times in the Epistles of the Spirit (Christ) indwelling us (2 Cor. 13:5, Romans 8:9-10, Ephesians 1:14 and 2 Corinthians 1:22, 1 Cor 6:17)


I am afraid, it is very untenable.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Oct 24 2018, 08:45 PM

Ah, the joy of being born again. With regards to the new heart and new spirit:

Our heart is softened toward God. It was as hard as stone toward God before regeneration, but after regeneration, is softened toward God and becomes "a heart of flesh" (Ezek. 36:26). It has been softened, desires to love God and draws near to God; it longs to contact spiritual things and gladly receives and obeys God’s commands; it is not stubborn nor rebellious; although at times it is unable to obey, yet it is still willing to obey.

Our spirit is alive toward God. The spirit that was dead before regeneration, because of its contact with God’s life at regeneration, has been quickened by the resurrection power of God. The spirit, having been quickened, is able to contact God, to fellowship with God, to apprehend the spiritual things of God, and it has the strength to do God’s will.

Also, we love the brethren.

But, in practicality, our old creation, our old man, is still with us, and we are still very much under its influence (Rom 6:6). Only when our body has been transfigured, redeemed, will we be able to say that sin, the flesh, the self etc. is no longer with us. But while we are still living in the old body sin remains with us, and, perhaps unwillingly or subconsciously, we may become entangled with it and stained by it.

So, if we are still living in our old condition and not by the Spirit, we are just like the unbelievers, fighting and striving. At least, we have a way to turn

The year of jubilee


The year of Jubilee in Leviticus 25:8-17 is recorded as a prophecy in Isaiah 61:1-3 and is fulfilled in reality in Luke 4:16-22.


In the year of jubilee there were two main blessings:

1) the returning of every man to his lost possession and the liberation from slavery (Lev. 25:8-17). Everyone who had sold his possession, his allotted portion of the good land, was returned to it without paying anything to redeem it (vv. 10, 13, 28)

2) everyone who had sold himself into slavery regained his freedom and returned to his family (vv. 39-41).


Returning to one's possession and being freed and returning to one's family signify that in the New Testament jubilee the believers have returned to God as their lost divine possession, have been released from all bondage, and have returned to the church as their divine family—Eph. 1:13-14; John 8:32, 36; cf. Psa. 68:5-6.

1. The overflow of life is work,
The work should be our living!
What we experience e’er should be
The message we are giving.
When living and the work are one,
The work will be effectual;
When message and the life are one,
The word will be successful.

2 The work must be the fruit of life,
Born thru the Spirit’s flowing;
As branches of the Lord, the vine,
Fruit bearing, life bestowing.
’Tis Christ Himself thru us to work,
Himself as life expressing,
And all the riches of His life
To others manifesting.

3 ’Tis not a movement borne of man,
But by His power moving;
’Tis not the deeds done outwardly,
But inward action proving.
’Tis not the work of enterprise,
But ‘tis His life confessing;
’Tis not to toil for our success,
But ‘tis Himself expressing.

4 Our plans, our aims, our energy
We must abandon wholly,
That He may work His plan thru us,
His aim and object solely.
Ourselves, with all we are and have,
To death we must surrender,
That Christ may live Himself thru us
With riches and with splendor.