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Mai189
post Aug 9 2018, 10:19 AM

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QUOTE(Fat & Fluffy @ Aug 8 2018, 08:38 PM)
ASEAN Ground Based Air Defence

Sistem Pertahanan Udara atau Ground Based Air Defence satu elemen pertahanan bagi Tentera Udara bagi melindungi aset, pangkalan dan lokasi strategik.

Ia terdiri dari sistem radar, sistem komunikasi, meriam anti udara serta sistem misil. Kini dengan berkembangan teknologi sistem-sistem ini mampu bergerak secara mobiliti ke kawasan tertentu. Ia menjurus kepada penggunaan sistem C4ISTAR yang bermaksud "Command, Control, Communications, Computers, Information/Intelligence, Surveillance, Targeting Acquisition and Reconnaissance."

Di Asia Tenggara, beberapa Tentera Udara memiliki beberapa sistem pertahanan udara antaranya:

Indonesia
NASAMS 2 Mid Range SAM
Chiron MANPADS
QW-3 MANPADS
Skyshield AAG (Twin Oerlikon 35mm)

Myanmar
Tor M-1 Mid Range SAM
Kub Mid Range SAM
Buk M-1 Mid Range SAM

Singapura
Eurosam SAMP/T (Aster 30) Mobile Mid Range SAM
SPYDER (Python-5/Derby) Mobile Shorad SAM
Mistral MANPADS
Igla MANPADS
RBS 70 MANPADS
GDF-001/002 AAG (Twin Oerlikon 35mm)

Thailand
KS-1C Mobile Mid Range SAM
ADATS Shorad SAM
RBS 70 MANPADS
QW-2 MANPADS
Rheinmetall Mauser Mk.30 mod.F AAG
Bofors 40mm L/70 AAG
Type 74 37mm AAG

Vietnam
S-300 Long Range SAM
S-125 Penchora 2TM Mid Range SAM
S-75M Volga Mid Range SAM
Kub Mid Range SAM
Strela Mobile Shorad SAM
SPYDER (Python-5/Derby) Mobile Shorad SAM
SA-7 MANPADS
Igla MANPADS
ZSU Mobile AAG

Malaysia mempunyai sistem rangkaian pertahanan udara yang baik menerusi Program Sistem Pertahanan Udara Nasional (NADS). Ia melibat pembangunan sistem-sistem radar ketahap tertinggi untuk memastikan tahap kesiagaan dalam keadaan terbaik.

Kejadian MH370 merencat tahap keupayaan sistem ini apabila ia gagal berkerjasama dengan sistem awam dari Jabatan Penerbangan Awam (kini Suruhajaya Penerbangan Awam Malaysia). Kini proses kolaborasi sedang dilakukan dengan pembinaan satu fasiliti gabungan di KLIA.

Namun begitu, aset Pertahanan Udara GBAD amat mengecewakan dengan Grup Pertahanan Udara GAPU Rejimen Artileri serta Pasukan Pertahanan Udara PPU TLDM dan TUDM tidak mencapai jarak yang sesuai berbanding dengan sistem radar dan elektronik berteknologi dan keupayaan tinggi.

Sistem Starstreak yang digunakan ketiga-tiga cabang ATM hanya mampu mencapai sasaran 7km berbanding sistem pertahanan Mid Range SAM yang mampu mencapai sasaran lebih 25km.

Beberapa sistem GBAD pernah ditawarkan kepada Malaysia antara Buk M-2, NASAMS (misil Iris T/Sidewinder & AMRAAM), Eurosam SAMP/T (Mica/Aster), Advance Hawk (misil Sidewinder & AMRAAM), KS-1, FK-3 & HQ-16.

Sejak 2000, tiada satu pun sistem GBAD Mid Range SAM berjaya memasuki perkhidmatan GAPU mahupun PPU. Kos sekurangnya RM5 - 6 Billion perlu disediakan sekurangnya 12 unit Bateri dilihat satu kos yang tinggi. Namun ia amat diperlukan agar tidak mengunakan aset tempur seperti Jet Pejuang secara berterusan. Melalui program CAP55 TUDM berharap mendapatkan 1 Rejimen penuh GBAD disamping 9 unit radar baharu
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Aster 30 SMPT at >120km is a long range missile system. Aster 15 at >30km is the medium range version.

As for NASAM, I know the sale brochure denotes medium range. But it is in the same categoey as Spyder SR. Both NASAM and Spyder uses a medium range aams i.e. Amraam versus Derby/python 5. Maximum for both systems (if they leverage on the latest version of both missiles) range is probably around 15km to 30km at most. Note: the latest Derby is comparable to Amraam 120d. Indonesia does not have Amraam 120d.




Mai189
post Aug 10 2018, 09:54 AM

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QUOTE(Frozen_Sun @ Aug 10 2018, 09:14 AM)
TNI-AU already bought a batch of AIM-120C7 for F-16

So, they may purchase the same variant for surface launched model. But, for any AAM converted to SAM, the effective range is roughly halved.
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It is more than "halved". Try shooting an arrow vertically up. Is speed constant?

At 50-60km air to air range, the original derby missile has a range of only 15km when used in the Spyder system. The latest Derby Er has an air to air range in excess of 100km. Derby Er will be incorporated in the current Spyder systems as an upgrade. In the same vein, its range will be less than <30km when used in the Spyder system.

That is why both Spyder and Nasam are not true medium range systems i.e. extended Shorads with 15km to <30km range thereabout. Medium range systems like i-hawks can shoot out to 45km.

C7s are the norm now as US and allies upgrade their amraams to 120-Ds. Sg will likely get its first Ds with its new F35s if not earlier.

This post has been edited by Mai189: Aug 10 2018, 09:56 AM
Mai189
post Aug 10 2018, 10:44 AM

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QUOTE
Neighbourhood's only counter rocket artillery and mortar (C-RAM) system.


http://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/content/...iron-dome-radar
Mai189
post Aug 10 2018, 07:07 PM

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I was not aware the it is already quite advance in testing stage...they could literally build the MPF now if they want.



Once again ST is going up against industry giants. To me, getting this far - win or lose - is already a big plus to the prestige of ST. It attests to the quality and capability of SAF's network centric platforms.

When inducted into the SAF, the MPF will be the true replacements for the AMX-13 tanks; perhaps with a 120mm gun for commonality.

Mai189
post Aug 10 2018, 10:21 PM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Aug 10 2018, 09:31 PM)
Interesting that it seems everybody from SAIC/ST Kinetics MPF, Otokar Tulpar Light Tank and Pindad/FNSS Medium tank are using the same Cockerill 3105 Turret.
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As a fire support vehicle, it is great for urban operations with high and low angles of fire.

Hmmm...I do not know why you keep calling these vehicles medium tanks as if all these vehicles are tanks. These are 30 ton class armored vehicles with 105mm cannons no matter what design configuration they come in. They are not tanks. Is the J26 ton apanese Type 16 a tank with a 105mm cannon? Boxer and Puma IFVs are better armored and heavier than all 3 without 105mm cannons.

Is it for domestic consumption.. you "designed" tank? And what is a light tank? A IFV with 30mm/40mm cannon? I get it. It sounds good. Np. You have a 30 ton plus "tank".

Mai189
post Aug 10 2018, 11:14 PM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Aug 10 2018, 11:02 PM)
You think that Pindad/FNSS is the only company calling its tracked vehicle with 105mm a Medium Tank?

Tell that to BAE and Hanwha.

http://www.armyrecognition.com/eurosatory_...he_cv90105.html

https://defence-blog.com/army/hanwha-defens...le-chassis.html
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So why is the tulpar a light tank and not a medium tank? I asked as to what constitute a medium or light tank. And why some 30 ton class armored vehicles aremt? You hit the nail on its head when you referenced sales/marketing pitches.

In no way does it detract from the main fact that these are essentially 30 ton class armored vehicles. You just put a large cannon on top. You can also call a jeep with a 105mm recoiless rifle a compact light tank.

Mai189
post Aug 11 2018, 01:41 AM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Aug 10 2018, 11:41 PM)
Even the US Army is calling the MPF a light/medium tank. Heck even if they want to call it Super Tank let them be.
The Pindad/FNSS Medium Tank weight is 35 tons. It doesn't matter what you want to call it,  the matters is that someone is buying this tracked vehicle and that is the Indonesian Army with first batch order of 100 units. The Philippine is also a potential export customer. You don't want your vehicle to be just a technology demonstrator.
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Well of course you may end up buying the armored fire support vehicle. How else are you going to get your money back after getting FNSSs technical assistance in coming up with can you call it, a national project. That is only logical and nothing to be embarrassed about.


This post has been edited by Mai189: Aug 11 2018, 02:03 AM
Mai189
post Aug 11 2018, 01:44 AM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Aug 11 2018, 12:28 AM)
I don't think so. The Pindad/FNSS Medium Tank is Stanag Level 5 can only tahan against 25mm cannon at 500 m. The Tulpar Light Tank is Stanag Level 2 but can be upgraded to Level 5.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/STANAG_4569
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Which comes back to what i said. They are just run of the mill armored vehicles.Slap a few armour modules and change the name light, super light or medium.
Mai189
post Aug 11 2018, 02:01 AM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Aug 11 2018, 12:34 AM)
A 30mm or 50mm cannon-armed namer can tear to shreds a tulpar or pindad/fnss or mpf armored fire support vehicle if it gets first shot ability. On the other hand, it may just well take a shot and dish it out. The newer turrets carry internally equipped spike atgm - surprise. None of the afore-mentioned turkish origined vehicles stand a chance.

One of the reasons these 30 ton hull vehicles were unpopular was because they are too thin skinned to go to the front lines. Even an anti material rifle bullet can pierce the hull at some places. Let alone rpgs and shoulder carried anti armour missiles. Modern rapid firing 30nn or 40nm cannon will do it too.

So what use are these vehicles for? Fire support esp in urban settings. They are really fire support vehicles. And accompanied by an armor train of other ifvs to shield them from enemy infantry. Use them correctly, it adds to your fire support. Use them wrongly, they fare worst than say a 30mm or 40mm ifv. Of course, fire support can come via other means. A rocket armed uav can also provide a degree of fire support.
Mai189
post Aug 11 2018, 10:39 AM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Aug 11 2018, 09:56 AM)
Thanks for the article. Just goes to show how vulnerable these 30 ton fire support vehicles are . Oh so they are now "light" tanks.
Mai189
post Aug 11 2018, 12:27 PM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Aug 11 2018, 11:22 AM)

Everyone have their own classification. One would see the SAIC/ST Kinetics MPF as a Light or Medium Tank and one would see it as an IFV 105mm as it is basically is an IFV with a 105mm turret.

Even the WW2 Panther Tank the German classified it as a Medium Tank whereas the Russian & the Allies classified it as a Heavy Tank.

Heck even Rheinmetall calling their Marder Medium Tank as the Marder Medium MBT. Lol.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-x5mUDKsSSI8/WBQh...82948de7cd5.jpg 

IMHO..there is no definite classification.
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Haha. That was the gist of my argument friend. Calling it light or medium or whatever is misleading with regard to what is essentially a 30 ton plus armored platform.
Mai189
post Aug 11 2018, 12:34 PM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Aug 11 2018, 11:33 AM)
Nowadays any armored vehicles are vulnerable even Main Battle Tanks. Unless they are equipped with APS. Every weapons will always have a counter weapons.
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No doubt.

Aps is no guarantee as well. Unless you develop one indigenously, it is costly to install on every vehicle. The point is a proper mbt or 40 to 70 ton ifv/apc has higher survivability rate vis a vis a 30 ton plus one. And that affects doctrine.
Mai189
post Aug 11 2018, 01:44 PM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Aug 11 2018, 01:26 PM)
Doesn' matter thats the way it is. The manufacturer and the military can named it what ever they want.

For the MPF why the US Army named it Mobile Protected Firepower? Do the vehicle have enough firepower and protection? It is also misleading.

Some will named a 8x8 wheeled armored vehicle with a 105mm or a 120mm gun as a Mobile Gun System (MGS) and some will named it as a Tank Destroyer.

Whats important is what specific role the vehicle are given to by the user and what strategy for their deployment.
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Yes yes we know. That is what i have been saying all along. A 30 ton plus ifv/apc/armored vehicle with a 105mm gun is just that; irrespective of its name.
Mai189
post Aug 19 2018, 06:24 PM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Aug 12 2018, 01:04 PM)
I think you were asking SAIC/ST Kinetics MPF and i said yes. The Pindad/FNSS Medium Tank is a dedicated tank design with a rear engine so it carries no infrantry troops. Pindad is also to begin developing next year an IFV variant based on the Medium Tank. Ofcourse with a front engine.
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The Merkavas and Namers, etc have engines in front wherein the latter is protected by thick armour, esp.in fibua situations. They learnt this from experience, unlike nearly 99% of armed forces in the world. RPG and ATGM like to come from behind from thier own experience. The FNSS/Pindad mobile fiepower support IFV/APC is not network centric so it does not have 360 degrees situational awareness, it will definitely need support all round.

You have pretty much shot argument on dedicatd tank design to pieces by revealing that an IFV based on the FNSS/Pindad fire support vehicle will be introduced. It just an IFV/APC dude. Tho they started it off with a 105mm cannon version ..quite possibly for nationalistic fervour purposes from the pics I have seen in this forum.

Mai189
post Aug 19 2018, 06:30 PM

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Some RSAF ester eggs there if you could spot and link th dots...XXX dome, Aster 30, etc.

RSAF 50 workplan seminar - really good video on RSAF's development.

RSAF 2020 onwards will consist of the F15SG, F16V and F35 (to replace the F5 S/T). The F16s will be replaced by more F35s. All in good time...

https://www.facebook.com/TheRSAF/videos/1512783168830202/

This post has been edited by Mai189: Aug 19 2018, 06:34 PM
Mai189
post Aug 19 2018, 08:06 PM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Aug 19 2018, 07:25 PM)
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2018/08...ank-export.html

^^ The K21-105 Medium Tank is the competitor in both Philippines and Bangladesh procurement program.
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[QUOTE]

Well. At least there is some use to the fnss designed firepower support vehicle. What do you really expect countries like Bangladesh or the Phlippines to buy?
Mai189
post Aug 19 2018, 08:13 PM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Aug 19 2018, 07:03 PM)
Nope. The FNSS/Pindad Medium Tank is not based from any existing IFV/APC design. It is a completely new hull and can be seen from the video below:



Pindad will design and develop an IFV variant based from the Medium Tank design. Its like the Namer is based from the Merkava MBT. You wouldn't want to call a Merkava an IFV/APC just because the Namer is an IFV and using the Merkava hull. Lol.

The FNSS/Pindad will be using locally made Battle Management System (BMS) by PT Hariff DTE. The same BMS already installed in the Leopard 2RI MBT as seen from the pic below:

user posted image

Situational awaremess is for the driver with camera at the front and at rear.

Rear driver's camera on the FNSS/Pindad Medium Tank:

user posted image
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That is right. .. an ifv designed vehicle which is of a different design compared to other ifv/apcs. But a 30 ton ifv/apc thin skinned vehicle nonetheless.

When one talks about 360 degrees situational awareness, it is a reference to a network designed linked to a battle management system which is linked to an over arching battle space management system. My car has a front and back camera too.

Comparing a namer to your light weight ifv/apc is misleading. The namer is indeed derived from a dedicated tank- the Merkava.
Mai189
post Aug 19 2018, 08:19 PM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Aug 19 2018, 08:15 PM)
Well ofcourse. Better than selling nothing at all. Lol.
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Certainly is. You can sell Geeltys if you want..no harm at all. A warthog apc for example is more difficult or expensive to buy and own.
Mai189
post Aug 19 2018, 09:22 PM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Aug 19 2018, 08:34 PM)
Well ofcourse the FNSS/Pindad Medium Tank is so easy to built and own. Lol.
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So why do you need Fnss's assistance if it is so easy to build and own?
Lets see..if the phillipines was like say Australia..they would have purchased a boxer, cv 90s etc.
Mai189
post Aug 19 2018, 09:29 PM

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QUOTE(azriel @ Aug 19 2018, 08:30 PM)
That is why i said it will use locally made BMS contrary to what you said that it didn't have a network centric. Lol.

You were talking about situational awareness because what FNSS referred to as a situational awareness is the drivers camera.

user posted image

Mission Equipment

• 360⁰ Situational Awareness
• Wireless Crew Intercom System
• Navigation System
• Auxiliary Power Unit
• Interior & Exterior Lighting System
• Battlefield Management System (BMS)
• Laser Warning System (LWS)

http://www.fnss.com.tr/en/product/kaplan-m...-specifications

Nope i'm not misleading. You were quoting my post about a  plan IFV variant development based from the design of the FNSS/Pindad Medium Tank by Pindad. I'm talking about a dedicated tank design from the drawing board and just because the manufacturer want to develop an IFV variant based from that design you want to call it just an IFV/APC variant. Lol. The Merkava-Namer is a good example aswell with the T-55- Achzarit.
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Rubbish..it is a dedicated ifv/apc tat was modified to carry a 105mm cannon. Which dedicated mbt has so large/high
a front tat says - please hit me. In comparison, please see how ifcs/apcs look. At 30ton plus weightage, your dedicated tank claim design is simply rubbish and marketing gibberish.

No. I am not talking about frontal and back cameras found on modern cars. Tat said, the Mpf has i dunno..8 to 9 cameras.

Tell me more about your battlefield management system...

This post has been edited by Mai189: Aug 19 2018, 09:31 PM

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