I notice most guys feel frustrated when trying to get the girls they want. It's either the girls aren't interested/ rejected them right at the start, or suddenly ghost/ leave after a few months, or change to become worse/ demeaning and the relationship becomes toxic or end with betrayal/ sudden breakup.

I grew up having more male friends than female ones, but I'm not a tomboy or the brotherly type. Sometimes I have empathy/ sympathy for men, seeing them so frustrated and hurt, either during pursuit, or during the initial stage, or while in the relationship, or the breakup.

Actually what men want are simple, it's women that's complicated, as they have more wants and needs = more picky and demanding/ high expectations. I'm guilty of this as well, but I don't play guys' feelings or take advantage of them.

***

I'm a woman, so obviously, I don't (need to) pursue men.

I've gone out with 22 men, one-on-one lunch/ dinner dates via dating apps. Most of them are in their 30s (that's the range I set), and are professionals. Among them are engineers (mechanical, O&G), managers (software development, app designs, logistics, real estate, finance), business owners (car parts supplies, water filtration systems, logistics), a scientist in manufacturing technology, a strategy director and others.

Of course, I've chatted with even more men, about 100-200 in the past few years. When I first used Tinder, I got 99+ likes and 30+ pm's within 12 hours. (Side note: Now I know why I was popular. I asked my male buddy to show me his Tinder girls, we swiped left and right together, hmm... I was kinda disappointed? The photos and profile write-ups were kinda...unsatisfactory. Then I looked at how he chatted up with different girls. )

So yeah, I'm quite seasoned. I don't sleep around & all my dates are serious/ proper ones (not looking for hookups). Now I don't use dating apps anymore, and funnily, I met my fiance via lowyat forum. 
First Date Matters

Men are actually more feeling-based/ visual ("I like the girl, I have feeling for her, so I chase her"). Men tend to fall in love hard and fast when the gut feeling/ instinct/ hormones gets triggered (by her looks, her smile, sexy photos, body shape etc).

Women aren't like that. They have a mental checklist when it comes to screening and selecting potential partners. Let's begin with the first date.

First impression is, of course, important. As long as you look decent and presentable, display good table manners and etiquette, you score points.

Women tend to be naturally guarded, so you'll need to make them feel at ease/ more relaxed, and show that you are caring, such as asking "Would you like some hot tea?" "Do you feel cold?" "How's the food? Is the soup hot enough?" Ask simple questions to just have a quick check on how she's feeling, and if she says she's fine/ it's okay, then say something like, "That's good. I'm glad you enjoy the soup/ you're feeling comfortable" and then smile at her.

Then the topics you talk about should be something interesting. Usually, men will need to lead the conversation first to break the awkward silence. It can be telling stories (about what happened at work, or a project you just completed etc), or talking about some fun activities that you'll be doing, or asking for her opinion about vacation ideas etc. It should be interactive, and ideally, men should listen more than they talk. When you can get a woman to open up and talk about what interests her, and make her smile and laugh, the date is then a successful one = you are making her feel good and happy.

After the lunch/ dinner ends, pay for the meal (you asked her out and you like her). Don't schedule the next date immediately. Just say it's kinda late, she should go home now and sleep early, get some beauty sleep after a good meal and chat with you.

If you like her, accompany her to pay the parking ticket, or to the car park if it's kinda late. Then when you're home, text her to say you're home and ask her if she has reached home safely too. Then thank her for her time to dine with you, and you enjoy it. Don't ever ask her how she thinks of the date, or how she thinks of you. It's still too early to judge, so please don't invite unnecessary preliminary evaluation.

Up till now, notice that on the first date itself, you'll need to:
1) pay attention to details
2) show that you are warm and caring
3) don't show your desperation (by asking her when's the next date or how she feels about you etc)
4) unguard her by 10%-20%

***

As mentioned earlier, I've gone out with 20+ men. 90% of them paid for the first date. Some of them asked if I would consider a serious relationship with them, which I rejected outright. On the other hand, with some of them, I had a second and third date.

Why Women Reject Men

Many reasons, such as:

1) physical compatibility: height, body shape, body frame
2) bad impression: lack of punctuality, no table manners, poor body language (yawn, burp etc)
3) lack of common interests or common topics
4) lack maturity and depth, e.g. cold jokes or sarcastic remarks, which women don't find funny at all
5) don't feel safe or comfortable with him; he's too desperate for next date or for sex

and other reasons, of course.

The thing is, don't feel frustrated with women reject you outright. If it's something you can change to be better, you can impress her again in the next date, provided that she will give the 2nd chance and you still wanna pursue her.

& yes, back then when my bf-now-fiance pursued me, I rejected him straightaway, but he didn't give up. He didn't let my rejection diminish his value and self-worth, and he proved himself to me that he truly deserved me. I was really impressed with his high self-esteem and confidence. It took him a whole year to pursue me, and to get me give up dating other men. (Another tip: Women like to test men, level by level.)

A man who is very sure and confident of himself (in a good way, not delusional), despite the "disadvantages" he has, is very attractive and sexy to women. I call it the winning attitude/ mentality.

If you are at a disadvantage (no good looks, not rich etc), you need to demonstrate to her you are a man worthy of her in some other ways, such as you can make her laugh and be happy, you are caring and filial etc. Demonstrate your strengths despite the weaknesses you have, and don't feel inferior.

***

Ok, shared a lot. I'm not sure how you guys pursue women; I'm just sharing some input so that you can refine your tactics, and hopefully, increase the chances of succeeding. 

& yes, back then when my bf-now-fiance pursued me, I rejected him straightaway, but he didn't give up. He didn't let my rejection diminish his value and self-worth, and he proved himself to me that he truly deserved me. I was really impressed with his high self-esteem and confidence. It took him a whole year to pursue me, and to get me give up dating other men. (Another tip: Women like to test men, level by level.)

Yeah, it's just the basics, but most guys can't even get it done right. If the men I went out with had done all these right, then I would't have mention those steps as necessary. Those men were in their 30s, and were professionals. Using this as a sample, imagine the mistakes younger men (in their 20s and 30s) and those who are not professionals/ high ranking/ less educated can make.

& the topics you suggested, those are for later stage. I can't write all these in one thread, can I? It would then be a book. One topic, one thread, coz this is a forum, you need to be specific and give space for discussion.

***

From what you wrote, I feel that you are the type of men who jump too fast to conclusion, and too eager to speed things up to achieve desired results. While efficiency and effectiveness are good when you apply it at work, this doesn't apply well in pursuits/ relationships.

I'd say you're the fisherman type of man: cast one net, to get as many fish as you want in a short time. In fact, most men do that. I won't say it's a wrong approach, but a good catch always takes time, and bigger fish live in the deep sea, not near the shallow shore.

Another type of men, I call them the hunters. A hunter sets the lure, waits patiently for the prey to approach, and aims at the prey. He enjoys the chase to hunt the prey down, and when he succeeds in it, the prey is now his prized possession. Of course, during the chase, he wants the prey and only the prey, and give up on hunting other animals. It is the whole experience that gives him the thrill.

If there are too many fishermen out there fishing in the sea, perhaps you should sail deeper into the ocean, or try hunt in the jungle. 

I'd say you're the fisherman type of man: cast one net, to get as many fish as you want in a short time. In fact, most men do that. I won't say it's a wrong approach, but a good catch always takes time, and bigger fish live in the deep sea, not near the shallow shore.

If there are too many fishermen out there fishing in the sea, perhaps you should sail deeper into the ocean, or try hunt in the jungle. 

From the start of my thread, the context is about first date, what to do etc.

If a girl agrees to go on date with you, it means she has some slight interest in you (that's why she agrees to going out, otherwise why would she?). Then my advice is about how to make the good impression etc.

In the first post, I did write:

"Don't feel frustrated with women reject you outright. If it's something you can change to be better, you can impress her again in the next date, provided that she will give the 2nd chance and you still wanna pursue her."

She will give the 2nd chance = still have interest in you.
You still wanna pursue her = you still have interest in her.

In other words, if both individuals show no interest, there is of course no 2nd chance and no more pursuit. Please go for the next date and don't waste your time on the girl.

I'm asking men to put in effort in women who are interested in them, and they are interested in. Maybe you should re-read.

& did I say it's wrong to cast nets to catch many fish? I said it's not a wrong approach, didn't I? Go re-read.

& did I say just focus on one girl?

Even for hunter, when they set the trap, they will be different animals getting attracted to the lure. For example, a hunter puts a few carrots in the jungle to lure a few rabbits. If he doesn't wanna wait, then just wait for the first rabbit to appear, and hunt it down. If he's willing to wait, then when more rabbits come, only then the hunter decides which rabbit he want to hunt down. That one rabbit will then run away and the hunter will chase it, and enjoy the thrill of chasing. The hunter is hunting the animal who gets attracted.

This approach is different from the fishermen approach: cast the net, wait wait wait for the fish to swim in, and then pull the net up and select the fish. Sometimes may have good catch, sometimes no.

Please read carefully, and interpret the context correctly. Maybe you read too fast and you miss a few key points.

I think you interpret rejection as "bye forever; can't even be friends at all."

Reject = "dismiss as inadequate, unacceptable, or faulty"

Rejecting a man and rejecting his pursuit are two different matters.

If a woman rejects a man, she doesn't wanna even keep in touch with him. She finds him irritating, annoying and won't wanna hear from him again.

If a woman rejects a man's pursuit, it means she doesn't wanna start a relationship. Maybe it's because she's not ready, or she still have doubts about him, or it's too fast. However, it doesn't mean she wanna shut him out.

Look, if you have been friends with a girl for some time, you two can chat and hang out together, she likes you and you like her (as friends), and then you find yourself having feelings for her, and start pursuing her, and she says no.

Does it mean she hates you? No right?

She just doesn't want you to pursue her. It doesn't mean she will cut off the relationship. As long as she doesn't cut off the relationship, and you still have feelings for her, you can still find other ways to pursue her. Maybe she won't accept you now (need to find out why), but it doesn't mean a (future) relationship with her is doomed and hopeless.

In my case, he and I were friends at first, then he fell for me and pursued me. I said no. He asked why. I told him the reasons. He didn't give up. He addressed my concerns one by one, and found ways to work things out. That's why it took a whole year to pursue me, coz I needed the time to think and accept.

My relationship is very challenging, coz it involves LDR, different religion and other factors. Just LDR alone is already a challenge by itself. Then different religion? Yeah, strong opposition from family and relatives.

I could have easily given up and shut him out, but I didn't. & it's not like I didn't have other admirers; I had.

The reason I'm with him is because he accepts me for who I really am and be a better person. I feel happy, loved and cherished. The positive influence he has on me, in the end, made my family finally accept him, that's why we can proceed to the next stage.

You call this topping of the chart or playing games? I don't think so. Which women don't want a simple and easy relationship? I think men too; most men won't wanna get involved with complicated girls.

If you try to understand women using the male brain (logical and analytical), then you can never understand them well. When you can't understand them well, it affects your pursuits a lot. That's why it's so frustrating.

Different men have different criteria, perhaps for you. I’m not that type.

A lady friend once shared how naive she was (she’s quite a looker) and many men have been trying, mind you men with “good taste” but much of these men love the persuit of fine women until they often to go 2-3 girls at a time. They simply have the resources.

The problem arises when such men have the pursued ladies fall for the same guy the same time. Even Being a smooth talker, the discovery of the ‘other’ isn’t too pleasant.

The scenario probably also applies men have complained that’s some girls inevitably invite men/guys to pursue the same time (going with different men for dates)

I don’t know, when you are exclusive, you are exclusive. Younger men and women may not have sorted all their wants in life.

So if it justified that you should be allowed to date simultaneously with 2-3 women, I think it’s your choice and if your resources allows (time and mullah)

some work and some fail. since TS experience is onky.at 30s