It is a painful drop only when the purchases were done in the recent months. To those who were having the stocks or funds since the beginning of the year, the YTD gains are still sky high... time to take holiday.

============

Add on...

Long term UT investors don't have the same view point of stock investors... especially in those in the beginning stage when they are building up their investments. Buy low, sell high? No. It is buy, buy, and more buy regardless of the market trend... ala DCA investment strategy.

For a long term UT investors who is building up the fund to supplement his retirement income, he will be holding onto the portfolio and only trimming the yearly profits for income...

For a shorter term UT investor, it is also regardless of the market... the market is secondary to the investment objective... he would sell when the objective is reached and when he needs the money.

In short, stock investors might follow "buy low, sell high". UT investors don't.

(Retail investors are individuals who purchases stocks for themselves. They are not UT investors. Sometimes it is not easy to reply when the original query contradicts itself and not sure which direction to take in the reply.)



This post has been edited by j.passing.by: Dec 6 2017, 07:03 PM

I would add on that the purchasing should be out of the monthly salary for those who are just starting.

I sometimes wonder where the money comes from when someone asked what do do with the sum of money they have, sometimes 20k or 50k. Winnings from 4d or take years to save...

If the money is from monthly savings, why suddenly so impatient to invest the savings? Kept it for many donkey years and suddenly discovered that there are better investments with higher returns than FD?

As this week's markets sell-off shows, the downturn can wipe out all the profits from purchases done in the past 2 months... now moving back and hitting all the top-ups/purchases in the past 3 months... this is when the pain is felt, especially so when the bulk of the savings were used up in the recent several months.

If only the beginner had discovered UT funds earlier, and invest bit-by-bit as they save...

Can't you hear, can't you hear the thunder?
You better run, you better take cover.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfR9iY5y94s

From the album "Business as Usual"...

This post has been edited by j.passing.by: Dec 7 2017, 05:02 PM

==========

Not every UT funds are similar in nature... with 17 stocks, average holdings is 5.88% per equity. It is indeed highly concentrated when compare to another UT fund with more than 80 equities in the range of 0.2% to 2% in each equity.

As mentioned in a previous post, it's master propectus has KLCI as its benchmark... which I think is not true, as things don't add up when its YTD gains is in the region of 40%. Whatever reports or fact sheets there are, they are no help in providing any guidance... best to ignore them, and rely on your own investment/trading instinct.

There's no free lunch... extraordinary rewards comes with extradordinary risk.

==========

"to find ideas for enlarging my bursa investment"

Maybe look into the components of KL Tech Index...
https://www.investing.com/indices/kl-technology

==========

Have added more iron into the fire this week... the 3rd switch in less than a month!
Let's go chase performance...

The markets go up and down...
In the long run...

The main points are whether you have the investment acumen to stay put, and in a long down trend, the purchasing power to invest more.

In both cases, you will be a winner (with positive ROI), in the later, bigger winnings with higher IRR.

Edit: spelling corrected on "trend".



This post has been edited by j.passing.by: Dec 9 2017, 10:14 AM

There's a bit of crosstalk in this UT thread because there are all sorts of investors talking here, looking at the same thing with different perspectives. Some come from fixed price ASB-type fund background, and not used to seeing the daily price changes, as they don't have any nav price to see and only see the annual dividend.

The good thing about UT funds is that you can built a portfolio to your liking. It can be conservative with stable returns annually, or can be volatile with lower annual returns in one year and higher returns the next year.

The problems begin when investors want fast and high returns, and were not expecting the volatility. In other words, they had taken on funds in a fast growing market, and only realise they don't have the stomach for volatility when caught in a downturn.

If you want fast and furious, then be fast and furious when the market rebounds... how long the market will stays up does not matter.

This post has been edited by j.passing.by: Dec 9 2017, 11:32 AM

It could also be up to 6 years...

"normal" refers to events which frequently happen... past is past, what is in for the future is for all to speculate and predict.

1. You selected and picked the fund... so when market is down, please blame the fund manager for being 'lousy'.

2. It is more common to describe to UT as a pool of stocks... as a basket is usually a small container to hand-carry a few things. Maybe because of this "basket" view of UT funds, the above reason why you expected the fund manager to be able to trade stocks in high volume to keep ahead of the market?

To any new investors, I would rather say to take the risk if he/she has the money to spare and invest. Since they are here in this UT thread, I would also say the risk can be taken bit by bit... by spreading out the purchases over as many years as possible.

This of course do not applys if the new investor wants to have his returns in a fast and furious way. I wish them luck; and I would suggest to pick funds with the highest volatility.

Or better still, choose bitcoin.

But in the previous post, it was your opinion that funds can be normal to be 6 months down and losing money... why? Because... "it depends on the fund management skills of picking stocks. If he/she's lousy, then your returns also lousy."

What fund is it that is so badly under performed that is not due to the market downtrend, but due to the fund management... and yet you choose to select and invest in?

They are so many funds out there in the market to select, why hype on bad funds when we can focus on the right funds to have?

For a youngster, you seemed to be too hooked on "lump sum investment" and its related risk of a single purchase/investment.

Have you found a job and has the spare money to invest?

Cheers.

"They are so many funds out there in the market to select, why hype on bad funds when we can focus on the right funds to have?"

This is what this UT thread is for... about UT funds, not "better to stay in FDs and amanah saham".

Congrats on your new job. Still don't have the spare money to invest? Nevermind... keep it to yourself, as it not relevant to this thread on what you do unless it is UT.

Do you see why I found it tedious talking to you? To the original query on a fund that is 6 months down and losing.... I see it might be due to market downtrend, while you see it as a bad and poor fund itself.

Okay, clear on the above different viewpoints?

If bad fund, just dump it la.

Which part of "bad fund" got anything to do with "all time high" and the rest of the crap on market timing...

As said in above posts, the ROI has to be annualised to have a meaningful comparison to other annual rates like FD.

As to whether a Balanced portfolio is better or more suitable to you... only you can determine for yourself. You have to review what is the objective and purpose in your UT investment.

Generally, an investor who has time on his side, he should go for growth, not stable returns.
Growth and higher returns ==> Agressive Portfolio.
Stable yearly returns ==> Balanced Portfolio.

For comparison, early this year, my portfolio was very conservative with about 30-40% in equities... then gradually chase perforamnce based on my bullish market outlook this year by having more equities... now up to 100%... and got hit with a 5% lost last week... got back 2% in recent days... and now 3% below its peak.

Should I be too concerned with the 3% drop from the peak, and kicking myself for not trimming back part of the 100% in equities? No... but it is still a bit painful thinking about the drop from the peak.

The peak YTD gains was just above 12%... now it is just above 9%.

If the port gain another 1-2% in the next 2 weeks... I'll be like this

=========

BTW My port should be a balanced port with 50/50 or less in equities... since the port has reached its targeted volume.

Then there is this thought that this port still has a long way and many years to go... plus the fact that the money into UT was for equites... so this is the reason behind this 100% equity port.

(The port is about 60% Asia Pacific and 40% Asean funds.)

=========

Added...

BTW It is also good to have a Balanced Portfolio in view of the current turbulence in the market. When things are calmer with no missile launches by Fat Boy, brexit finalised, ringgit not gaining strength too rapidly, Trump still in office and not impeached, no chicken little ramjades shouting the sky is falling... then switch back to more equities or Agressive Port.






This post has been edited by j.passing.by: Dec 13 2017, 05:09 PM

Maybe he meant being in tune with the market.

How to be in tune with the market and yet ignore all the noise surrounding it?
Use VA investment strategy.

VA (Value averaging) is a bit different from DCA. In VA, the amount to top-up is accordingly to the investment schedule and its shortfall.

The important thing about any strategy is not abandoning it half-way... that means you believed in the strategy and loyal to the fund you selected to invest.

What is a good fund to have that you can trust and stay loyal to it?
A fund that has a good 5 to 10 years track record... see those popular funds with nicknames in page 1.

For example, CIMB-Principal Asia Pacific Dynamic Income Fund
5 Years Annualised ROI +16.70%
1 year return +23.28%

(See MorningStar website for more details.)

Its benchmark is straightforward... a straight line 8% growth.

While its investment strategy (according to its master prospectus) is allocating 70% to 98% into equities, it can also pull out all and "may invest all or a substantial portion of its assets in money market instruments to achieve the Fund’s investment objective in bearish or non-performing equity markets."

In short, it can allocate its assets dynamically... and hopefully in tune with its market.

So, if using VA into this fund:
1. The fund is mandated and allowed the fund manager to keep the fund in tune with the market.
2. VA purchasing keeps you in tune with your fund's volatility, by topping up more when it dips.

=======

Added...

Please note above fund was taken as a quick example. There are other criterias to determine and select a fund aside from its track record and returns.

Aside from its master propectus, its annual financial report should also be reviewed for its total asset size, and number of unitholders, and how diversified is the fund.




This post has been edited by j.passing.by: Dec 14 2017, 07:04 PM

Please note I have added to the previous post, as below:

"Please note above fund was taken as a quick example. There are other criterias to determine and select a fund aside from its track record and returns.

Aside from its master propectus, its annual financial report should also be reviewed for its total asset size, and number of unitholders, and how diversified is the fund."

============

Please also note that the aim of DCA and VA purchasing strategies are to ignore the market and shut off the noise around it, so that the purchases can continue as regularly as possible without any interference.

Of course for any investor, it would be best to have some foresight on how the market will behave in near future and anticipate any abrupt market changes, and take action beforehand to gain an advantage over the directional change.

Unfortunately, we don't... hence the above purchasing strategies to take on risk bit by bit.

We could also mitigate the risk further by spreading out the purchases over 3 or 4 months instead of doing it monthly.

By having a buying/investment schedule, we don't have to react immediately to any market changes by sticking to our schedule as planned.

For a new investor who is beginning to built up his asset in UT funds, slowly building up the equity assets by speading out the purchases is the only cautious choice he has.

He may wait till the market is favourable before he begins the first purchase... it is his investment choice and decision to make... his choice to wait... but as said, if only we have the market forsight to take action before any changes in the market direction.

As Jack Ma says "To learn how to swim, you must get into the water".

Different starting points... 10-yr chart starts at Dec 2007 while the 5-yr chart starts att Dec 2013.

(Both charts shows the total returns of 5-yr and 10-yr respectively.)

From the 10-yr chart, at the Dec 2013 point, if you move the lower lines upwards till they meets the highest line, it will then looks like the 5-yr chart.

Interestingly, this also shows the difference between Fund's returns, and Investor's returns, as investors don't enter at the same time as what is shown in the 1-yr, 5-yr or 10-yr charts' starting points. And the investor must also make a single entry to have the same returns as the chart.

Lastly, look closer at the period before 2013... the index rebounds after the sharp drop in end 2008, but the fund remains quite flat, by this time a lot of investors would bail out... right before it began to perform as well as the index. Maybe not a lot of investors did bail out... but I know I did!

Lesson learned: Stay strong... invest more if got the spare money to do so.



This post has been edited by j.passing.by: Dec 19 2017, 07:04 PM

Annualised return is an average... say 5-yr annualised is the average annual/yearly (and compounded) returns for the 5-years period.

We can only say that in that 10-yr period, the first 5 years period has a lower annualised return and the final 5 years, a higher annualised returns.

Hence overall in the 10-years period, the first 5-years has pulled down the overall 10-yr annualised returns, and hence a lower 10-yr annualised returns compared to the final 5-years.

Any stimulation is based on the data used. To forecast the movement of stock markets (based on historical data)... it would be a much easier to forecast the weather, since the variables in the stock markets are not completely random, and it is man-made - which can be anything out of the blue and not factored into the data used in the stimulation.

=========

The is no such thing as a fixed formula or the stock market must follow a fixed cycle as like the yearly north-east monsoon rains... if there is, it remains a secret awaiting to be discovered.

5-yr optimum holding period... tell us which 5-yrs to hold. Even if we know which 5-yrs to hold, Warren Buffett would not agrees with us since he holds his investments for decades.



This post has been edited by j.passing.by: Dec 21 2017, 05:58 PM

No risk no gains... money-market funds have similar returns to FD, with about 0.01% daily growth or 3.65% in a year.

What you should be more concern of is the transaction processes... how long it takes to place the money into the fund, and how long it takes to withdraw the money back into your hands.

Taking these no-interest-paid days into account, the effective rate of returns is greatly reduced - even though the fund is growing every day, in comparison to a monthly FD with monthly interest paid at a lower rate of interest.

It is similar to placing money into monthly renewable FD, and withdrawing sometime within a month before the FD matures... but with FD, you get back the money into your hands immediately when you withdraw it.

This post has been edited by j.passing.by: Jan 15 2018, 02:23 PM

In the first place, what's your objective in buying the fund?

I don't see any point in buying an equity fund and then switch it later, within a short time, to another equity fund... unless you had made a mistake in purchasing the fund, or made the purchase without much thoughts, or maybe were feeling very rich and loaded and just make the purchase based on someone's recommendation.

Anyway, no matter which fund it is, the better investment method is doing it slowly and regularly using the DCA method... not in a lump sum method.

Best to leave the lump sum method to punters and traders... especially those who are waiting for a 20% market crash before they put in their money.

Cheers.

PS. There are also those who just talk and talk only about putting in their money into equity funds... because they don't have the money or hardly any savings at the end of the month.

For those with money and savings at the end of the month, the decision of when to make any investment into any riskier equity fund (or any other risky investment) comes naturally.

This post has been edited by j.passing.by: Feb 7 2018, 07:12 PM

Another positive week... last week was positive too... most portfolios' YTD would be returning to positive... unless, of course if there were huge top ups in mid Jan.

If the rebound continues next week, Feb could be a positive month too... huat ahhhhh.

Buy the dips... buy the top dogs.

Diversify more to ASEAN if Greater China (& South Korea) is too hot.

Cheers.

PS. 'top dogs" = top funds = popular funds that were talked about in this thread.

That's the idea... don't waste money and spend it on FI funds... take some risk with some money and spend/invest it wisely for long term efficiency usage of investment money.

Often people lost the plot when they were talking about FI/equity ratio, and forget to look at the bigger picture that FD, EPF and fixed-price funds that are available to us are "fixed income" too.

"More lucrative" because you have more irons in the fire by having almost all in equities, while a managed portfolio have to have some in FI as mandated in the portfolio’s master prospectus.

Also the fund manager running it have to take a longer market outlook on which markets to invest/allocate more… contrary to some misplaced belief that ‘actively managed’ means active trading of stocks everyday to lessen the drop on a down day and to return more profit on an up day.

Whichever fund you selected, you must have faith in it, so that you don’t have too much stress or anxiety about your investment in a market crash… that you have faith that the markets will rebound and continues to grow and expand, and that the fund will rise up along with the markets it invested in.

I like ASEAN because it is a mixed bag of different economies and also ‘emerging/developing’ countries such as Thailand, Indonesia and Vietnam, and it has also a more stable and developed country i.e. Singapore… that the fund manager has a diverse option to allocate the fund’s investment.

China, Hong Kong & Taiwan markets are more volatile… and seem to be more influence by global/western institutional investors and also retail players/speculators who like to pump and pull out at any moment. As shown recently, their dips and rebounds can be steeper than ASEAN markets.

Also ASEAN includes Malaysia… the daily volatility in KLCI is mild in relative to other markets. And the ringgit is now below 4 to 1 usd and seems to be trading within a tight range… if goes back above 4, it could translates to higher NAV prices and ROI to the funds we are holding… if it strengthen more, more buying power to us in buying or topping up foreign funds, be it ASEAN or Asia Pacific or Greater China.

---------------

“(i guess i enter the market when it's peak, currently in red)”

Learn to be patient, and buy the dips. One method to rectify is to sell or switch out when it turns positive. This is if you feel you have over-invested... that is you have put more money into equities than you think you can spare.

If it is a part of many more purchases to come using the DCA or VA method, then carry on… don’t hold back the new purchases just because the previous purchases are in the red. Have faith in the funds you selected.