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 ASX COUNTERS !, Everything related to the Aus Sec Exc !

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Showtime747
post Apr 1 2018, 09:37 PM

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QUOTE(flight @ Mar 31 2018, 06:21 PM)
Is there a capital gains  tax on asx shares for malaysian residents?
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I concur with Hansel, if you mean you are a non-tax resident of Australia.

There are instances where a non-Australian can be a tax resident of Australia. Just google ATO tax resident test. You can find many examples


aspartame
post Apr 1 2018, 10:16 PM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Mar 9 2018, 05:05 PM)
It's not "donation" actually. In fact, even in Malaysia, Singapore, Australia or anywhere else, we investors are paying taxes of that country. Just that some you see it (2 tier dividend) and some you don't but you have already paid tax indirectly (1 tier dividend)

1 and 2 tier dividend systems are quite confusing to non-financing or non-accounting background people.

Leaving out the nitty gritty and complicated calculation, as a summary GENERALLY for non-tax resident, an investor's tax burden at the very end is :

Malaysia companies - 24%
Malaysian Reits - 10% (if declare >90% of income as dividend)
Singapore companies - 17%
Singapore Reits - 0% (declare >90% of income as dividend)
Australia companies - 30%
So, as an investor, when Malaysia companies declare dividend, it seems that investors do not need to pay tax. But in fact through company taxation, investors indirectly has paid 24% tax. The dividend we received is from profit which has already paid 24% tax.

Likewise for Singapore, investors already indirectly paid 17% tax on the dividend.

If compare to investment in Australia stock, malaysian investors are paying just additional 6% of tax. Not too bad lah....

Of course, investing in MReits and SReits has the most tax advantage, compared to corporate taxes

So, what DY numbers to use when comparing dividend yield between My/Sg vs Au companies ? For My/Sg, because of the 1 tier system, just use the quoted DY number. For Au, use "net dividend". If only gross dividend number is available, then just use the number x 70% (100%-30% tax)
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For MY, the dividend declared is already net of tax and hence if 5 sen is declared, then we will receive 5 sen. Seems like SG also the same. But what about Oz and US? In Oz, if 5 cents is declared, how much do residents and non-residents receive? How about US?
Ramjade
post Apr 1 2018, 10:27 PM

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QUOTE(aspartame @ Apr 1 2018, 10:16 PM)
For MY, the dividend declared is already net of tax and hence if 5 sen is declared, then we will receive 5 sen. Seems like SG also the same. But what about Oz and US? In Oz, if 5 cents is declared, how much do residents and non-residents receive? How about US?
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Minus 30% for both US and AU.
aspartame
post Apr 1 2018, 10:37 PM

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QUOTE(Ramjade @ Apr 1 2018, 10:27 PM)
Minus 30% for both US and AU.
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For non-residents, yes. I am trying to find out what do residents in both countries get. Do they (residents of Oz and US respectively)get 5 cents in Oz and US just like Malaysian residents getting 5 Sen net of tax in Malaysia? If they get 5 cents and we get 3.5 cents, we are getting creamed twice!

This post has been edited by aspartame: Apr 1 2018, 10:39 PM
Showtime747
post Apr 1 2018, 11:07 PM

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QUOTE(aspartame @ Apr 1 2018, 10:16 PM)
For MY, the dividend declared is already net of tax and hence if 5 sen is declared, then we will receive 5 sen. Seems like SG also the same. But what about Oz and US? In Oz, if 5 cents is declared, how much do residents and non-residents receive? How about US?y
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QUOTE(aspartame @ Apr 1 2018, 10:37 PM)
For non-residents, yes. I am trying to find out what do residents in both countries get. Do they (residents of Oz and US respectively)get 5 cents in Oz and US just like Malaysian residents getting 5 Sen net of tax in Malaysia? If they get 5 cents and we get 3.5 cents, we are getting creamed twice!
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Bro, before that, do you know how Tier-1 and Tier-2 dividend works ?

If you know how they work, then you save me 1 hour to type out the mechanism.

If you don’t know how they work, maybe you google first and ask any question you have....

To answer your question in a nutshell, Tier-1 is good for rich people with personal effective tax rate above corporate tax rate. Tier-2 system is good for “poor” people with personal effective tax rate below corporate tax rate. And more often than not, foreign investors pay less tax than Australian investors in ASX share investment thumbup.gif
aspartame
post Apr 1 2018, 11:40 PM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Apr 1 2018, 11:07 PM)
Bro, before that, do you know how Tier-1 and Tier-2 dividend works ?

If you know how they work, then you save me 1 hour to type out the mechanism.

If you don’t know how they work, maybe you google first and ask any question you have....

To answer your question in a nutshell, Tier-1 is good for rich people with personal effective tax rate above corporate tax rate. Tier-2 system is good for “poor” people with personal effective tax rate below corporate tax rate. And more often than not, foreign investors pay less tax than Australian investors in ASX share investment  thumbup.gif
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Ya, I sort of know Tier 1 and Tier 2. Single tier now replaces previous 2 tiers, which is an imputation system where tax credits ensures lower incomers get taxed at their lower rates. Are you telling me US and Oz are using 2 tier system? Can you give examples using 5 cents div for both US and Oz?
Showtime747
post Apr 2 2018, 06:51 AM

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QUOTE(aspartame @ Apr 1 2018, 11:40 PM)
Ya, I sort of know Tier 1 and Tier 2. Single tier now replaces previous 2 tiers, which is an imputation system where tax credits ensures lower incomers get taxed at their lower rates. Are you telling me US and Oz are using 2 tier system? Can you give examples using 5 cents div for both US and Oz?
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Good. If you understand the single tier and two tier system, then you should be able to calculate the difference in tax payable for the following example :

Assumption 1 - single tier
1. Company own by an investor. It makes 10000 profit
2. Tax paid 3000 (ie corporation tax 30%)
3. Declare 7000 single tier dividend

Scenario 1 -
4. investor has a job which pays 10000 salary
5. Personal tax rate - 0 to 20000 (10 %), >20000 (40%)
6. How much total tax did this person pay ?

Scenario 2 -
7. Investor has a job which pays 30000 salary
8. How much total tax did this person pay ?


Assumption 2 - two tier
9. Company makes same 10000 profit
10. Tax paid 3000
11. Declare 10000 gross dividend (ie 7000 fully franked dividend)
12. How much is franking credit ?

Scenario 1 -
13. Investor has A job which pays 10000 salary
14. Personal tax rate same as above
15. How much total tax did this person pay ?

Scenario 2 -
16. Investor has a job which pays 30000 salary
17. How much total tax did this person pay ?

What’s the answers for question 6, 8, 12, 15 and 17 ?

If you understand how 1 tier and 2 tier system works with the above example, then you should be able to know which system is better for investors of different income level
aspartame
post Apr 2 2018, 08:06 AM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Apr 2 2018, 06:51 AM)
Good. If you understand the single tier and two tier system, then you should be able to calculate the difference in tax payable for the following example :

Assumption 1 - single tier
1. Company own by an investor. It makes 10000 profit
2. Tax paid 3000 (ie corporation tax 30%)
3. Declare 7000 single tier dividend

Scenario 1 -
4. investor has a job which pays 10000 salary
5. Personal tax rate - 0 to 20000 (10 %), >20000 (40%)
6. How much total tax did this person pay ?

Ans: 1000 on salary and 3000 tax on divvy at company level = 4000.
Personally pays 1000. Total 4000.


Scenario 2 -
7. Investor has a job which pays 30000 salary
8. How much total tax did this person pay ?

Ans: Personally paid 2000 + 4000 = 6000. Company level paid 3000. Total 9000.

Assumption 2 - two tier

9. Company makes same 10000 profit
10. Tax paid 3000
11. Declare 10000 gross dividend (ie 7000 fully franked dividend)
12. How much is franking credit ?

Ans: 3000

Scenario 1 -
13. Investor has A job which pays 10000 salary
14. Personal tax rate same as above
15. How much total tax did this person pay ?

Personally pays [(10000 + 10000 grosed up divvy) * 10% ] = 2000 less 3000 credit = get tax refund 1000. Company level paid 3000. Total paid 2000.

Scenario 2 -
16. Investor has a job which pays 30000 salary
17. How much total tax did this person pay ?

Personally pays 10,000 less 3000 credit = 7000. Company level paid 3000. Total paid 10,000.

What’s the answers for question 6, 8, 12, 15 and 17 ?

If you understand how 1 tier and 2 tier system works with the above example, then you should be able to know which system is better for investors of different income level
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I know single tier benefits higher income tax bracket. What I want to know is what kind of system US and Oz use. For both countries, we are taxed flat rate 30%. Seems like they are using 2 tiers. Do you know what the local investors tax rates are? In short, I would like to know if we are disadvantaged by the 30% tax. I understand what you are trying to say: it depends on the individuals tax bracket in US and Oz but do you know roughly their tax rates for middle income earner say maybe 200k per annum?
Showtime747
post Apr 2 2018, 08:39 AM

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QUOTE(aspartame @ Apr 2 2018, 08:06 AM)
I know single tier benefits higher income tax bracket. What I want to know is what kind of system US and Oz use.  For both countries, we are taxed flat rate 30%. Seems like they are using 2 tiers. Do you know what the local investors tax rates are? In short, I would like to know if we are disadvantaged by the 30% tax. I understand  what you are trying to say: it depends on the individuals tax bracket in US and Oz but do you know roughly their tax rates for middle income earner say maybe 200k per annum?
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Bro, I guess you are from accounting or finance background. Are you trolling me with your questions in this page ?

The way you asked your question sounds like you are fresh to dividend tax. But you answer it correctly in a flash, is like trying to test me, since clearly you already knew the answer biggrin.gif

For your above question, go google the simple fact of tax rates in Australia and USA, and what dividend system they use. So easy to get the answer through google...It's like in a medical forum, a doctor asking another forummer medical question pretending they don't know anything

I am sure many readers here would appreciate your contribution. Don't pretend to know nothing lah..... rclxs0.gif
aspartame
post Apr 2 2018, 09:43 AM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Apr 2 2018, 08:39 AM)
Bro, I guess you are from accounting or finance background. Are you trolling me with your questions in this page ?

The way you asked your question sounds like you are fresh to dividend tax. But you answer it correctly in a flash, is like trying to test me, since clearly you already knew the answer  biggrin.gif

For your above question, go google the simple fact of tax rates in Australia and USA, and what dividend system they use. So easy to get the answer through google...It's like in a medical forum, a doctor asking another forummer medical question pretending they don't know anything

I am sure many readers here would appreciate your contribution. Don't pretend to know nothing lah..... rclxs0.gif
*
Bro, seems like u r the one trolling. You gave me exam and promise got sports break later but instead now u tell me go to music class.. aiyo...

Anyway, I not good in detailed analysis like Ramjade gor but a quick google sort of give me an overall picture. Oz is still on imputation system and their personal tax rate is as high as 45%. Therefore, 30% is actually a lower rate if compared to a person earning AUD180k and above. Of course, I am not sure of their effective personal tax rate after "rebates" reliefs or the staggered tax rates and what not but generally 30% is considered quite ok. For US, seems like they have different dividend tax across states but generally ranged from 28% to 33%. Again, not factoring personal effective tax rate and their very complicated tax system. So, again, 30% tax on non-resi "aliens" is not that bad. Correct me if I am wrong.

EDIT: correction : for treaty countries with Oz, withholding tax rate is 15%. Malaysia is one of the treaty countries I think. So... 15% is great!

This post has been edited by aspartame: Apr 2 2018, 10:29 AM
Showtime747
post Apr 2 2018, 01:49 PM

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QUOTE(aspartame @ Apr 2 2018, 09:43 AM)
Bro, seems like u r the one trolling. You gave me exam and promise got sports break later but instead now u tell me go to music class.. aiyo...

Anyway, I not good in detailed analysis like Ramjade gor but a quick google sort of give me an overall picture. Oz is still on imputation system and their personal tax rate is as high as 45%. Therefore, 30% is actually a lower rate if compared to a person earning AUD180k and above. Of course, I am not sure of their effective personal tax rate after "rebates" reliefs or the staggered tax rates and what not but generally 30% is considered quite ok. For US, seems like they have different dividend tax across states but generally ranged from 28% to 33%. Again, not factoring personal effective tax rate and their very complicated tax system. So, again, 30% tax on non-resi "aliens" is not that bad. Correct me if I am wrong.

EDIT: correction : for treaty countries with Oz, withholding tax rate is 15%. Malaysia is one of the treaty countries I think. So... 15% is great!
*
See...you got all the answers you want, by yourself. Just a little bit of googling only....

I spent 1/2 hour to type out an example is a waste of my time doh.gif

You are the troller. I looked stupid in front of everybody. Trying to teach people what health is in front of a doctor cry.gif





note : I am not saying what you found out above is correct or wrong though biggrin.gif
aspartame
post Apr 2 2018, 02:09 PM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Apr 2 2018, 01:49 PM)
See...you got all the answers you want, by yourself. Just a little bit of googling only....

I spent 1/2 hour to type out an example is a waste of my time  doh.gif

You are the troller. I looked stupid in front of everybody. Trying to teach people what health is in front of a doctor  cry.gif 
note : I am not saying what you found out above is correct or wrong though  biggrin.gif
*
Eh bro, cannot like that lah. Your last statement left me hanging there. Am I right or wrong oh? Music class over already. Now what? Please 指点迷津。
TSHansel
post Apr 2 2018, 08:44 PM

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Bro Aspartame,... may I know,... you purpose of wanting to know all these is for academic purposes or for what please ? Perhaps I can be of help here, if I'm able to....
aspartame
post Apr 2 2018, 09:23 PM

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QUOTE(Hansel @ Apr 2 2018, 08:44 PM)
Bro Aspartame,... may I know,... you purpose of wanting to know all these is for academic purposes or for what please ? Perhaps I can be of help here, if I'm able to....
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Not for academic purpose. I always shy away from investing in US and Oz stocks because of the 30% withholding tax, which to me, is too much to pay. I actually have to thank bro Showtime for alerting to me the possibility that it might actually be not as disadvantageous as I first thought. ( even though I understand the mechanics, I was caught up with the 30%).Basically, what I have written is what I understand so far. If I understand it wrongly, please let me know. Having said that, I am not in a hurry to buy anything. Just doing some fact finding aka busy bodying.


Showtime747
post Apr 3 2018, 08:00 AM

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QUOTE(aspartame @ Apr 2 2018, 02:09 PM)
Eh bro, cannot like that lah. Your last statement left me hanging there. Am I right or wrong oh? Music class over already. Now what? Please 指点迷津。
*
Haha bro, ok. I have the following questions :

1. Difference between franked and unfranked dividend
2. Their treatment for resident and non-resident
3. How / in what instances a company declare franked and unfranked dividend
4. In practice, how often a company declare unfranked dividend

I think also easy to get from google as you are well versed in finance
Showtime747
post Apr 3 2018, 08:07 AM

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QUOTE(aspartame @ Apr 2 2018, 09:23 PM)
Not for academic purpose. I always shy away from investing in US and Oz stocks because of the 30% withholding tax, which to me, is too much to pay. I actually have to thank bro Showtime for alerting to me the possibility that it might actually be not as disadvantageous as I first thought. ( even though I understand the mechanics, I was caught up with the 30%).Basically, what I have written is what I understand so far. If I understand it wrongly, please let me know. Having said that, I am not in a hurry to buy anything. Just doing some fact finding aka busy bodying.
*
For investment, just compare the net DY between the countries. See which one is higher loh....(before considering the risk)

If you pay less tax (like 15% or 30%) than Australian (34%) for ASX, but the DY is lower than from SGX shares, you also don’t want right ?
prophetjul
post Apr 3 2018, 08:48 AM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Apr 3 2018, 08:07 AM)
For investment, just compare the net DY between the countries. See which one is higher loh....(before considering the risk)

If you pay less tax (like 15% or 30%) than Australian (34%) for ASX, but the DY is lower than from SGX shares, you also don’t want right ?
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Yeah

I am unhappily paying 30% with holding tax on US stock dividends, but net yields of 8 to 12%.....so. biggrin.gif
aspartame
post Apr 3 2018, 09:42 AM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Apr 3 2018, 08:00 AM)
Haha bro, ok. I have the following questions :

1. Difference between franked and unfranked dividend
2. Their treatment for resident and non-resident
3. How / in what instances a company declare franked and unfranked dividend
4. In practice, how often a company declare unfranked dividend

I think also easy to get from google as you are well versed in finance
*
Aiyo..another exam! Will go through when I am more free.
aspartame
post Apr 3 2018, 09:44 AM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Apr 3 2018, 08:07 AM)
For investment, just compare the net DY between the countries. See which one is higher loh....(before considering the risk)

If you pay less tax (like 15% or 30%) than Australian (34%) for ASX, but the DY is lower than from SGX shares, you also don’t want right ?
*
True. That's what I say no hurry. But ASX can provide further diversification in AUD. Got more fish lah but don't know which and how to catch!
aspartame
post Apr 3 2018, 09:48 AM

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QUOTE(prophetjul @ Apr 3 2018, 08:48 AM)
Yeah

I am unhappily paying 30% with holding tax on US stock dividends, but net yields of 8 to 12%.....so.  biggrin.gif
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Er..can provide 1 or 2 tips with such high yields? Safe or not oh? Normally, high yield comes with high risk. Some more in US market where interest is so low. If so good, all those hedge funds or even regular funds snap up already right? Just buy and hold and distribute to fund investors. biggrin.gif 12% per annum is a respectable return in the fund world especially if consistent.

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