Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+

 ASX COUNTERS !, Everything related to the Aus Sec Exc !

views
     
aspartame
post Apr 1 2018, 10:16 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
3,165 posts

Joined: Feb 2015
QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Mar 9 2018, 05:05 PM)
It's not "donation" actually. In fact, even in Malaysia, Singapore, Australia or anywhere else, we investors are paying taxes of that country. Just that some you see it (2 tier dividend) and some you don't but you have already paid tax indirectly (1 tier dividend)

1 and 2 tier dividend systems are quite confusing to non-financing or non-accounting background people.

Leaving out the nitty gritty and complicated calculation, as a summary GENERALLY for non-tax resident, an investor's tax burden at the very end is :

Malaysia companies - 24%
Malaysian Reits - 10% (if declare >90% of income as dividend)
Singapore companies - 17%
Singapore Reits - 0% (declare >90% of income as dividend)
Australia companies - 30%
So, as an investor, when Malaysia companies declare dividend, it seems that investors do not need to pay tax. But in fact through company taxation, investors indirectly has paid 24% tax. The dividend we received is from profit which has already paid 24% tax.

Likewise for Singapore, investors already indirectly paid 17% tax on the dividend.

If compare to investment in Australia stock, malaysian investors are paying just additional 6% of tax. Not too bad lah....

Of course, investing in MReits and SReits has the most tax advantage, compared to corporate taxes

So, what DY numbers to use when comparing dividend yield between My/Sg vs Au companies ? For My/Sg, because of the 1 tier system, just use the quoted DY number. For Au, use "net dividend". If only gross dividend number is available, then just use the number x 70% (100%-30% tax)
*
For MY, the dividend declared is already net of tax and hence if 5 sen is declared, then we will receive 5 sen. Seems like SG also the same. But what about Oz and US? In Oz, if 5 cents is declared, how much do residents and non-residents receive? How about US?
aspartame
post Apr 1 2018, 10:37 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
3,165 posts

Joined: Feb 2015
QUOTE(Ramjade @ Apr 1 2018, 10:27 PM)
Minus 30% for both US and AU.
*
For non-residents, yes. I am trying to find out what do residents in both countries get. Do they (residents of Oz and US respectively)get 5 cents in Oz and US just like Malaysian residents getting 5 Sen net of tax in Malaysia? If they get 5 cents and we get 3.5 cents, we are getting creamed twice!

This post has been edited by aspartame: Apr 1 2018, 10:39 PM
aspartame
post Apr 1 2018, 11:40 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
3,165 posts

Joined: Feb 2015
QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Apr 1 2018, 11:07 PM)
Bro, before that, do you know how Tier-1 and Tier-2 dividend works ?

If you know how they work, then you save me 1 hour to type out the mechanism.

If you don’t know how they work, maybe you google first and ask any question you have....

To answer your question in a nutshell, Tier-1 is good for rich people with personal effective tax rate above corporate tax rate. Tier-2 system is good for “poor” people with personal effective tax rate below corporate tax rate. And more often than not, foreign investors pay less tax than Australian investors in ASX share investment  thumbup.gif
*
Ya, I sort of know Tier 1 and Tier 2. Single tier now replaces previous 2 tiers, which is an imputation system where tax credits ensures lower incomers get taxed at their lower rates. Are you telling me US and Oz are using 2 tier system? Can you give examples using 5 cents div for both US and Oz?
aspartame
post Apr 2 2018, 08:06 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
3,165 posts

Joined: Feb 2015
QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Apr 2 2018, 06:51 AM)
Good. If you understand the single tier and two tier system, then you should be able to calculate the difference in tax payable for the following example :

Assumption 1 - single tier
1. Company own by an investor. It makes 10000 profit
2. Tax paid 3000 (ie corporation tax 30%)
3. Declare 7000 single tier dividend

Scenario 1 -
4. investor has a job which pays 10000 salary
5. Personal tax rate - 0 to 20000 (10 %), >20000 (40%)
6. How much total tax did this person pay ?

Ans: 1000 on salary and 3000 tax on divvy at company level = 4000.
Personally pays 1000. Total 4000.


Scenario 2 -
7. Investor has a job which pays 30000 salary
8. How much total tax did this person pay ?

Ans: Personally paid 2000 + 4000 = 6000. Company level paid 3000. Total 9000.

Assumption 2 - two tier

9. Company makes same 10000 profit
10. Tax paid 3000
11. Declare 10000 gross dividend (ie 7000 fully franked dividend)
12. How much is franking credit ?

Ans: 3000

Scenario 1 -
13. Investor has A job which pays 10000 salary
14. Personal tax rate same as above
15. How much total tax did this person pay ?

Personally pays [(10000 + 10000 grosed up divvy) * 10% ] = 2000 less 3000 credit = get tax refund 1000. Company level paid 3000. Total paid 2000.

Scenario 2 -
16. Investor has a job which pays 30000 salary
17. How much total tax did this person pay ?

Personally pays 10,000 less 3000 credit = 7000. Company level paid 3000. Total paid 10,000.

What’s the answers for question 6, 8, 12, 15 and 17 ?

If you understand how 1 tier and 2 tier system works with the above example, then you should be able to know which system is better for investors of different income level
*
I know single tier benefits higher income tax bracket. What I want to know is what kind of system US and Oz use. For both countries, we are taxed flat rate 30%. Seems like they are using 2 tiers. Do you know what the local investors tax rates are? In short, I would like to know if we are disadvantaged by the 30% tax. I understand what you are trying to say: it depends on the individuals tax bracket in US and Oz but do you know roughly their tax rates for middle income earner say maybe 200k per annum?
aspartame
post Apr 2 2018, 09:43 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
3,165 posts

Joined: Feb 2015
QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Apr 2 2018, 08:39 AM)
Bro, I guess you are from accounting or finance background. Are you trolling me with your questions in this page ?

The way you asked your question sounds like you are fresh to dividend tax. But you answer it correctly in a flash, is like trying to test me, since clearly you already knew the answer  biggrin.gif

For your above question, go google the simple fact of tax rates in Australia and USA, and what dividend system they use. So easy to get the answer through google...It's like in a medical forum, a doctor asking another forummer medical question pretending they don't know anything

I am sure many readers here would appreciate your contribution. Don't pretend to know nothing lah..... rclxs0.gif
*
Bro, seems like u r the one trolling. You gave me exam and promise got sports break later but instead now u tell me go to music class.. aiyo...

Anyway, I not good in detailed analysis like Ramjade gor but a quick google sort of give me an overall picture. Oz is still on imputation system and their personal tax rate is as high as 45%. Therefore, 30% is actually a lower rate if compared to a person earning AUD180k and above. Of course, I am not sure of their effective personal tax rate after "rebates" reliefs or the staggered tax rates and what not but generally 30% is considered quite ok. For US, seems like they have different dividend tax across states but generally ranged from 28% to 33%. Again, not factoring personal effective tax rate and their very complicated tax system. So, again, 30% tax on non-resi "aliens" is not that bad. Correct me if I am wrong.

EDIT: correction : for treaty countries with Oz, withholding tax rate is 15%. Malaysia is one of the treaty countries I think. So... 15% is great!

This post has been edited by aspartame: Apr 2 2018, 10:29 AM
aspartame
post Apr 2 2018, 02:09 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
3,165 posts

Joined: Feb 2015
QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Apr 2 2018, 01:49 PM)
See...you got all the answers you want, by yourself. Just a little bit of googling only....

I spent 1/2 hour to type out an example is a waste of my time  doh.gif

You are the troller. I looked stupid in front of everybody. Trying to teach people what health is in front of a doctor  cry.gif 
note : I am not saying what you found out above is correct or wrong though  biggrin.gif
*
Eh bro, cannot like that lah. Your last statement left me hanging there. Am I right or wrong oh? Music class over already. Now what? Please 指点迷津。
aspartame
post Apr 2 2018, 09:23 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
3,165 posts

Joined: Feb 2015
QUOTE(Hansel @ Apr 2 2018, 08:44 PM)
Bro Aspartame,... may I know,... you purpose of wanting to know all these is for academic purposes or for what please ? Perhaps I can be of help here, if I'm able to....
*
Not for academic purpose. I always shy away from investing in US and Oz stocks because of the 30% withholding tax, which to me, is too much to pay. I actually have to thank bro Showtime for alerting to me the possibility that it might actually be not as disadvantageous as I first thought. ( even though I understand the mechanics, I was caught up with the 30%).Basically, what I have written is what I understand so far. If I understand it wrongly, please let me know. Having said that, I am not in a hurry to buy anything. Just doing some fact finding aka busy bodying.


aspartame
post Apr 3 2018, 09:42 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
3,165 posts

Joined: Feb 2015
QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Apr 3 2018, 08:00 AM)
Haha bro, ok. I have the following questions :

1. Difference between franked and unfranked dividend
2. Their treatment for resident and non-resident
3. How / in what instances a company declare franked and unfranked dividend
4. In practice, how often a company declare unfranked dividend

I think also easy to get from google as you are well versed in finance
*
Aiyo..another exam! Will go through when I am more free.
aspartame
post Apr 3 2018, 09:44 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
3,165 posts

Joined: Feb 2015
QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Apr 3 2018, 08:07 AM)
For investment, just compare the net DY between the countries. See which one is higher loh....(before considering the risk)

If you pay less tax (like 15% or 30%) than Australian (34%) for ASX, but the DY is lower than from SGX shares, you also don’t want right ?
*
True. That's what I say no hurry. But ASX can provide further diversification in AUD. Got more fish lah but don't know which and how to catch!
aspartame
post Apr 3 2018, 09:48 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
3,165 posts

Joined: Feb 2015
QUOTE(prophetjul @ Apr 3 2018, 08:48 AM)
Yeah

I am unhappily paying 30% with holding tax on US stock dividends, but net yields of 8 to 12%.....so.  biggrin.gif
*
Er..can provide 1 or 2 tips with such high yields? Safe or not oh? Normally, high yield comes with high risk. Some more in US market where interest is so low. If so good, all those hedge funds or even regular funds snap up already right? Just buy and hold and distribute to fund investors. biggrin.gif 12% per annum is a respectable return in the fund world especially if consistent.
aspartame
post Apr 3 2018, 09:59 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
3,165 posts

Joined: Feb 2015
QUOTE(prophetjul @ Apr 3 2018, 09:52 AM)
Yeah.....high returns is high-er risk.

Do a search at seekingalpha. Then make your own DD.

Funds do not know everything. Plus they have their own risk constraints. All I know is I receive monthly or quarterly dividends from these counters.  AND their earnings more than cover these dividends. Sometimes they issues special dividends, so the yields are even higher.
*
Oh ok. Thanks. Talking about Seeking Alpha, do you pay for the subscription? I just read free stuff there..quite fun to read but wonder if worthwhile to subscribe?
aspartame
post Apr 3 2018, 11:02 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
3,165 posts

Joined: Feb 2015
QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Apr 3 2018, 10:50 AM)
We need contributors in forum ! Looking forward to your research  thumbup.gif
*
Aiyo, I damn lazy. Normally I don't go into details like Ramjade gor. biggrin.gif Might as well you just explain briefly..then everyone can learn also. biggrin.gif Or we just follow prophetjul gor, buy 15% yield and deduct whatever you want lah... rclxms.gif
aspartame
post Apr 3 2018, 06:18 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
3,165 posts

Joined: Feb 2015
QUOTE(Hansel @ Apr 3 2018, 05:05 PM)
Bro,... the above would be a good start as an objective,... I look at it this way,.. are you able to invest INSIDE Australia ? IF you are able to, then only you start talking about franking of divvy payouts,... otherwise, why bother ? Just compare what that is given out without the frankings and see if it is worth it against your existing investments,..

One more tip : when Aussie companies declare dividends, they always say whether it's a fully-franked dividend or dividend with frankings,... they will say fully-franked, 30% franked, etc,... it's very clear,...
*
Ya, like you say, only residents paying Oz taxes with low tax brackets benefit from fully franked dividends. An Aussie in the lowest tax bracket receiving dividend income might be paying little to no tax after all rebates. (I am just assuming) .However, we cannot compare like that lah. As long as withholding tax of 30% is not that punishing comparing to middle income group is good enough lah. I don't want to be too disadvantaged, that's all. Having that part covered, more importantly is to find the correct fish!
aspartame
post Apr 7 2018, 01:57 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
3,165 posts

Joined: Feb 2015
QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Apr 4 2018, 02:29 PM)
thumbup.gif well said bro. Agree ! Like prophetjul also said, USA tax is 30%, but he is happy with 8-12% net return. So why bother to compare how much tax the local vs foreigner pay...

That's why I thought bro aspartme is just trolling me. He is of financial background, already knew very well how the dividend system works. He is just trying to test me...

IIRC, we had a "discussion" on property prices last year, back and forth with something very simple which, for some unknown reason, he disagreed with me. Eventually cherroy transfer the thread to /k (don't know why moderators hates BBB DDD threads). He didn't resply me since... biggrin.gif
*
I did not mean to troll lah. Normally I am quite random and will just ask when I am not sure. I think u must have thought I have some beef with u because of the episode last year but no... not at all.. I dun have such trolling intention.. my question was genuine but it was also out of curiosity because I know the answer will not affect my returns much... it is just for knowledge .. I knew about franking dividends a bit but forgot about it until lately, when u throw the questions and I quickly refreshed my knowledge .. ha ha.... come to think about it... I also forgot what we were debating about but I remember I was right and I failed to convince you and then the thread was moved and I lazy to continue... I knew u are knowledgeable in many things but that was something I was quite sure.. maybe I am wrong...another Saturday afternoon rambling
aspartame
post Apr 7 2018, 01:58 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
3,165 posts

Joined: Feb 2015
QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Apr 7 2018, 12:42 PM)
A lazy person will never be a good investor. In fact a lazy person will never be good in anything

Don’t be lazy. Lazy is a wrong attitude which bring you failure in anything you do.

Finish off your research. Not that difficult lah....

Awaiting your contribution.
*
I deem the knowledge inconsequential and so I choose to spend my time elsewhere ...I am not into specifics unless it is crucial..
aspartame
post Apr 7 2018, 09:28 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
3,165 posts

Joined: Feb 2015
QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Apr 7 2018, 08:09 PM)
Actually, if you look at how I reply you, I was guiding you towards the right mindset in investing.

You compare the tax payable between local vs foreigner, instead of the total net returns from investing in different countries.

Eg your investment decision is based on if Australian pay dividend tax 30%, you pay 30%, then can invest because it is “fair”

What if the DY in ASX is 5% nett, while SGX is 8% nett ? This should be the criteria of your investment decision instead of how much tax you pay above/below the locals

This is similar with what we “discuss” last time IIRC. You insist you were right, that is your choice. I am not pointing a gun at you to accept the concept  biggrin.gif
*
Bro, this is gonna start the "quarrel" again but I am not about to go into it because my facts and details are not as good...and I know I cannot win an argument with you because previously I remember I gave a very solid explanation but you totally cannot accept my points and hence this is going to be the same.

Guiding me is a strong word because I never need any guidance all these years. I do not know many things and I am not shy to ask but I always form my own analysis and opinions. I dare not say I can guide you also.

Of course, if u are 100% sure that the 8% and 5% is a sure thing and comes with the same risk, then it is a no brainier to choose 8%. How do you compare stocks with no dividends then...in the long run, u must understand the concept that the market is not so inefficient as to allow you to go unpunished for investing on disadvantaged terms .... u can say that it is the end result that counts ...
aspartame
post Apr 7 2018, 09:42 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
3,165 posts

Joined: Feb 2015
QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Apr 7 2018, 08:19 PM)
If you always “half-cook” your knowledge, and giving excuses that it is “inconsequential”, you will never make a good investment decision.

Specifics and being detailed is very important in passive investment. Even a tiny bit of difference, like 2% DY, could have caused you thousands of dollars

Another of the mindset in investment decision. Never underestimate the difference in specific vs general

Again, not pointing a gun at you to accept the mindset. If you are contented with being “cincai”, continue with it  biggrin.gif
*
Ya, I am quite cincai when I think further analysis will not help me... I do not need the specifics when the specifics will not change the big picture. Your example of dividend : you can calculate the difference if the dividend yield is 5% vs 5.5% but I am more concerned with if the company is likely to even be profitable to pay any dividends. Bank interest - by all means be very specific. See: 2 different scenarios - one u neee to be specific , the other, being specific does not necessarily help if you get the stock ( big picture) wrong.

Even Charlie Munger says Warren Buffett seldom need a calculator to make a decision on investment. He might be exaggerating a bit lah. I am not sure anybody is qualified to argue with mr warren but u get my point.

aspartame
post Apr 8 2018, 08:34 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
3,165 posts

Joined: Feb 2015
QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Apr 7 2018, 11:24 PM)
Why not just finish up your own analysis and opinions, instead of explaining yourself what you did last time ?

What is the net dividend after tax a foreigner pay for ASX ?

Question is so simple right ?  biggrin.gif
*
Bonds' return can be precise to the dot lah, except when it defaults... oops...
aspartame
post Apr 8 2018, 06:35 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
3,165 posts

Joined: Feb 2015
QUOTE(flight @ Apr 8 2018, 05:58 PM)
This thread is getting derailed.

Btw, how r dividends in australia taxed for non residents like Malaysians?

Full tax or no tax, anyone know?
*
You gotta sit for exam first.
aspartame
post May 18 2019, 09:58 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
3,165 posts

Joined: Feb 2015
QUOTE(Hansel @ Mar 10 2019, 12:48 PM)
Things have been very volatile with ASX dividend stocks. And now,.... their franking credits arguments are taking place between the ruling party and the opposition Labor Party.

For myself,... I noticed safety in only 2 ctrs for the time being, namely ARF and CQE, both being early-learning ctr REITs. Both pay four times a year.
*
Bro Hansel, your 2 tips also very chun... anymore tips ah?smile.gif last time people mentioned BOQ .. price like very attractive now?

2 Pages  1 2 >Top
 

Change to:
| Lo-Fi Version
0.0525sec    0.61    7 queries    GZIP Disabled
Time is now: 4th December 2025 - 04:22 PM