The Permaculture course is simply a spring board into itself. There is no way everything can be covered in two weeks. For those who are interested, the real work begins after the course and this involves continuous learning because nature is just so profound in its ways. Permaculture is a marriage of two terms - permanent culture and some say permanent agriculture. Basically it's ethical design science ie. using nature to provide abundance not just for oneself but to those around and at the same time to flourish the environment. I won't go into the history of how the permaculture movement came about.

The course prepares the participants to be  permaculture consultants who should have the basics to handle a permaculture project anywhere in the world. So for that two weeks, they went through practically every climate and terrain, which was overwhelming I have to admit. I went for the course just to learn more so I can apply to the climate and terrain here in the tropics. I was quite surprised at the broad range of participants. There were Americans, French, a New Zealander, lady from China, Hong Kong and another from Bangladesh. The teacher is from Turkey and he learned directly from Bill Mollison, founder of the permaculture movement. Seems I got more than what I bargained for. So, it ultimately depends on which direction one wishes to go. Some become full time permaculture teachers, others become consultants. Me, I prefer to do small time farming.

The concept can be applied to not just agriculture but at the work place, school and so on. The idea is to fully utilize an element, thus giving it more than one purpose/use. I'll give you an example. At DQ farms, no part of their chicken is wasted. The meat is eaten and sold... obviously. However, leftovers like blood is turned into fertilizer. Bones and feathers are composted back to the soil. In permaculture, livestocks are treated as working partners and not slaves or commodity. Chickens are used to prepare the land instead of manual tilling. They don't just rake up the ground, they fertilize them with manure as well. So that's an example of using an element to provide many uses.

One reason why we need so much fertilizer and pesticides is because our soil is dead. Actually here in the tropics, we have more sand than soil. Healthy soil will inevitably produce healthy crops. And in nature, trees and plants do not grow in neat straight rows. Hence, in permaculture, plants are grown in groups or 'guilds'. Another familiar term is companion planting. Before doing so, one should read up on suitable companion plants. Some plants like bamboo are allelopathic. That means they inhibit the growth of others around them. If I remember, plants of the same genus/species, get along very well. Companion planting has many benefits as some plants support each other. Some are nitrogen fixers and these tend to have deep roots and they help to bring the minerals up to the ground so when you mulch them, they feed the others with shallow roots. Someone was asking about having ladybugs to help with keeping the vegetables pest free. I've read that they love to settle down in nettles. But what do we do when we see nettles? We cut them or spray herbicide.  By the way, here in the tropics, the most efficient plants to grow would be fruit trees and for livestocks, it's aquaculture.

Permaculture promotes diverse interaction between plants and animals because that is how it was created to be. What we have done in modern agriculture is to try to turn this natural system in a factory. Of course, nature does not work like a factory. That's why we have so much issues. So we try to control it with chemicals and machines.

If you look at a modern chicken farm, you'll understand the term factory better. As chicks, their beaks are cut off so they won't peck each other as this leaves ugly marks on their skin. By the way, healthy chickens rarely peck one another because they have plenty of space to roam around. But with a broken beak, they can never live as a normal chicken and look for food like worms and insects in the ground. Well, they don't have to because they will not see a real ground anyway. They are instead kept in cages, fed with cheap grain and given hormones to make them fat in the shortest time possible. Why? To maximize profits of course. Problem is, hormones, unlike chemicals, stay in the human body. Also, these chickens are cramped together like how they cramp those foreign workers in their dormitories. To keep them alive, antibiotics are given. The air inside the chicken farm is loaded with faecal dust. That's why you'd have to wear masks before going in. But the chickens don't wear masks right? They breathe in their own poop dust every single day. So much so that it ends up in their blood. They don't get enough exercise that they can hardly stand up. But this is NORMAL as long as the farm owner is raking in profits.

Sorry for the long winded post. I hope I did not come across as some 'holier than thou' preacher. After living in the city all my life, I've concluded that our food and our life is pretty messed up. I'm still learning and hope someday, I can provide for myself, family, neighbours and community some real wholesome food.

If you have time please watch this video. It's one of the best I've seen on urban permaculture. I really envy this couple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iSaRzjxL3E

Thank you mono_stero for the insight into Permaculture.

Don't matter if it's traditional, mordern, permaculture or any other method of agriculture, we are interested. All of them has their pro and cons.

On the 'modern chicken farm' I believe they are making lots of improvement to it. I see lots of farm had installed big ventilation fan to promote good ventilation and control the internal temperature. I also believe that they design it with their best ability and I guess 1 big reason is to feed a bigger demand at a lower cost. Please don't get me wrong, I am in no position to judge which is a better option.

My only though is that what if we can combine the advantage of all these different method?

Thank you for the link. I see they are blessed with a very good piece of land, maybe the previous operator did not appreciate it much. I personally like the water catchment and water irrigation. I envy that they are getting such a good strong pressure. My problem is that normally water is available at the lower level of the farm and water is needed at the top level of the farm ( far distance).

Please do share more when you come across any good article. Thank you.

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I agree there isn't a 'specific' way of doing things. However, most of us tend to copy or emulate what others have done so as to minimize risks and maybe because that's just the way it is. Until someone else comes along and proves that there is a better way. This, of course, requires tenacity and patience. Most of us are afraid of 'failure' but that's normal. On top of that, we may not have the resource and time for an extensive trial and error process.

I think you are referring to the video from the first link. That's Geoff Lawton and he's an outstanding proponent of the permaculture practice. Gravity fed water uses no electricity and that requires prior planning. In permaculture, the very first element to tackle is water. How to retain water (whether through storage or in the soil) for the longest time possible because every resource has a way to escape. And water is a prime essential resource. For those on flat ground,  what is normally recommended is storage tanks to store rain water collected from the roof gutter. Another way is to have a lot of groundcover to prevent the soil from drying up. Some people call these weeds. 

Thank you Para.
Soursop am having just 1 fruiting tree and the rest, about 100 trees just planted from April till July. Now germinating more. Tried grafting on 2 trees just for fun.

Jackfruit, have 2 fruiting trees, planted maybe 50 trees early this year (non-grafted). Germinating and grafting (learning) more. Hope to  plant more. Working on J29, J 31 and J 33.

I shall most probably sell as fresh fruits when I harvest.

As for the way of marketing / processing Jackfruits, it's more for a friend (India) as they are looking into ways to help their local farmers. I am compiling and would forward to him with pics as soon as I can.

Welcome bro.

Do update us on the processes for jackfruit when you finished compiling them for your Indian Friend.

As for me currently working on my papaya planting and also plan to do a Trial Plot for J33 - Honey Jackfruit and i want to see how early can the tree fruit.

Also will plant some soursop trees also. Busy with the piping works now for the plots

Just to share a publication from a friend on Jackfruit and the problem that they are encountering. Please feel free to read thru' and comment. Hope that we can be of help to them.
Jackfruit The Forgotten Kalparik.  Forgotten_Kalpavriksha.pdf ( 894.31k ) Number of downloads: 83


Just visited your blog. Nice work.
Just wondering, out of the many varieties of Nangka, why J33? What is the cost of your Nangka plant-lets? Why the need of irrigation? I remember your land is not that high.

On your Durian & Soursop, I see you are blessed with a flat piece of land. What is the cost of Durian & Soursop plant-lets? I see you spend quite an amount on land preparation. 10 tons of FOM 361 (fertilizer?), cost? Do you also intend to do irrigation here? Durian = Musang King    ? Soursop there are the sweet and sour variety. I'm working on the sweet type.

I'm so glad we have so many plants in common. We shall have plenty to share. I read that it takes about 20 months till flowering.

Hi Bro,

thanks for visiting the blog. soon i will add another blog on soursop. Buddha say, "Sharing Wisdom is Good Merit". Thus i hope to share what i learnt from other farmers also. If you have questions do ask...would try to answer as much as possible...

will read about the jackfruit problems they are encountering and see if any ideas come up. Do you have any specific problems that your friends are facing apart from the file attached ?

Good question on why i chose J33 of all.

Reason No. 1

This clone fetches are very good price here in Mantin. For Clone Yap and Clone Sime Darby, Grade A fruits are only RM 1.30-1.50 per kg MAX. Where as J33 aka Nangka Madu aka Honey Jackfruit fetches are price of RM 1.70 - 2.00 per kg for Grade A fruits. Thus 1st reason is economic.
Reason No. 2

From the data i surveyed,  i found that J33 is difficult to cultivate. Why i say so, i had talked to a lot of J33 farmers they are at wits end on how to make J33 fruit all year round and also hitting 20kg and above (more for exports reasons). Thus alot of older generations that are farming Clone Yap & Sime Darby in Mantin are very reluctant to change over because these 2 clones fruit all year round.

I want to help the farmers in Mantin if they allow me to, so i can help them improve yield and make a good living. I would also like
change farmer's mentality that this is a poor man's job and low level profession. 2nd Reason is a challenge for myself and vision to help fellow farmers. (inspired by Buddha)
Reason No. 3

And as i want to progress into Fruit Farm Advisory i chose J33 for its difficulty to cultivate and if i am able to make J33 fruit all year round and also hitting 20kg and above then i can make ends meet. Thus that's the 3rd reason (Grow myself & $$$)

Cost of plantets that i bought are RM 5.00 each. Irrigation is built so i depend less on foreign workers and weather for my trees. I strongly suggest you slowly have irrigation for your place if permitted. Great benefits for your plants and yourself.

I think i am one of the crazy few that would love dry spells throughout the year because with irrigation you dont have to depend on weather for water. If dry spell happens then you are king because most fruit trees will drop fruits due to no water and IF you have irrigation in place then you will be one of the very few with fruits for harvest.

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Durian & Soursop that is intercropped with Papaya quite lucky that place is flat but too many rivers crossing the place. The cost of Durian = RM 7.00 and Soursop = RM 8.00 (all depends on supply also, sometimes wait 2-3 months also no tree)

My intention of that land was for the papaya to generate income and cover for the waiting period of 3-5 years for Durian and 2-3 years for Soursop thus i tried ploughing in lots of organic into it. 10 ton of FOM 361 = RM 10,000.00. In that one acre, i am able to plant 400 papayas with 12 durians (40x40) and 48 soursops (20x20).

If this plan works out (hopefully) i can expand and also present this paper to potential investors and show them planting durian or soursop dont have to painful as it is now. LOLx....

I had set up irrigation and i will update the blog by monday. I think my type is the sour one haha...but i will check with the nursery. Prices of soursop fruit = RM 18.00/kg at the market

==============

Yeah glad we have lots to talk about and when you are back in KL, do call me and we can visit again...would love to get your ideas. You meant Soursop trees ?? If on soursop i am not sure about it but my tree fruited around 18th months.


Sorry for the long post. Do share if you have other thoughts bro

Yes, I totally agree that sharing is good. It create good karma, good positive energy and elevate our own learning. Hopefully by sharing our experience, we can motivate more people to go into farming.

Good for you. Cost of planting stock is low at your place. Here, it's a different ball game.
Durian Musang King $35, Nangka J33 $28. There is also a new variant of Red colored Nangka, quoted at $80 each. Hence I'm trying to set up my own nursery. My first (one) soursop from seed fruited in about 2 1/2 years (harvested). Am taking the seeds from this tree to propagate plus the seeds that I brought back from Vietnam.

Soursop at the wholesale market is only $2.50 to $3.00 (buying). They are selling for $4.00 to $4.50. Nangka about $20 ~ $35 per piece. They cut up and sell loose easily 2 ~ 4 time the cost price.

The present land that I'm planting in does not justify for irrigation. Cost is tremendously high and not feasible. So am leaving it to fate. Rain fed. Avocado, Nangka, Rubber trees, & Soursop should be drought resistance enough.

Yes, Papaya is a good short term cash corp. My trial was good. Am planting the rest of the small farm. Work & cost input is higher than banana, but yield is higher too. Do keep in mind that as the tree age, it gets higher = more work managing & harvesting. Am already replanting the phase 1 of my Papaya. Had culled of some as it's too tall, not healthy, round or yellow type. We can only plant 1 round of papaya, until the main crop grows.

Am still trying to find a 'lazy man's corp' so that I can put in minimum work now and enjoy the harvest later, all with minimum work and cost input  . Hope that maybe I can find it in one of these, Avocado, Durian, Jackfruit and Soursop. Am also experimenting with Lime.

Looking forward to your update. Oh yes, am in KL now, but leaving tomorrow morning.

Hi Bro,

Yeah planting stock is abundance cause there are a lot of nursery. possibly you could be one big one in Sabah

The Red Colour nangka could be Clone Yap. Wow your sousop fruited in 30 months. btw how long do they need to ripe ??

if you have the sweet variety please give me some if you have extras would love to get a few.

Well i found out that with irrigation you can get about a 30% difference. Probably you could do for some of your main crop rather than all.

What breed of papaya are you planting ?? I am planting the Foot Long variety. They are germinating quite well on direct planting.

Frankly speaking no fruit tree crops are lazy man's crop haha sorry about that. the nearest to it is Jackfruit. it has less work for maintaining the tree.

PS if you have good avocado seeds, please pass me some if you have extra. my place kinda difficult to get avocado...lolx

Looking forward to seeing you at the farm when you are back

hello everyone! stumbled upon this thread and loved it! great to see there's an ongoing forum about agriculture as it's rare to locate a place where stuff about agriculture can be discussed under one roof just like every other thing else. i used to be an active member in LYN but took a long hiatus until my first job (yes, in the agriculture line) sent me looking for any possible channel of information regarding rubber and oil palm. i see there's relatively little information about rubber and oil palm in this thread. my job at the moment is a supervisor for a rubber nursery. my experience is still somewhat at a young stage like sapling but i would love to share what i know and learn what i yet to know, all under learning purposes, and at the same time getting to know more friends, as the agriculture industry can be rather mundane after some time in it, especially when you're alone

Hi Chris,
Welcome to this thread.
Just to check with you, which is the easiest grafting method for rubber. Am going to do some test grafting tomorrow. My first test was a total failure 

rubber grafting is not an easy job. in fact my first test was a total failure too.
haven't done subsequent test after the first one so i could only speak from experience exchanging conversation with professional grafters (they can graft up to 1000 stocks in a day with 90% success rate  ). methods are more or less the same. it's the aspects that you need to take care of, like a larger socket on the stock to accommodate the scion, making sure the underside of scion is free from any object. the budding stick should be kept as fresh as possible during grafting as the success rate deteriorates if exposed under the sun for a long period. if you're re-grafting from the same stock, you should graft on the opposite and on top of the first grafting since the first grafting might cause wounds to its backside. hope it helps in your test tomorrow. good luck!