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 Home Wiring: 2 Pole MCB for single phase power?, Electrical genius please come

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chemistry
post Oct 16 2020, 08:36 PM

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QUOTE(Momo33 @ Oct 9 2020, 08:43 PM)
Just a question.    nod.gif
your DB box is already correct    with   the    EPS switch fuse . 

what make you want to change  to   mcb  ?    ( it is not wrong to change. 

ok  there is no hurry for you to change this , just wait  till  one day you have electrician in your house , you and ask him change...
*
haha, because recently read some articles about switch fuse and MCB, noticed that it is common practice to use 2P MCB as main switch.

QUOTE(stormer.lyn @ Oct 9 2020, 09:13 PM)
If your existing is the top photo, then the live goes in and out from it. The neutral from TNB will go straight to the RCCB.
If you change to the 2 pole version in the bottom picture, you should not leave the second slot empty (The slot on the right in your picture, without your red lines)
Take the neutral from the RCCB and poke into the second slot. And then from this dual pole take 2 wires and go to the RCCB.
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

Argh, sorry, logically the RCCB should be on the left, so the busbar can feed the MCBs

Edit to add this image from the internet
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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thanks for your diagram. Appreciate it.
After watching some youtube videos I gained better illustration on this diagram.

QUOTE(ozak @ Oct 9 2020, 11:01 PM)
Get a electrician to help you if you are not sure.
Electric can kill you.
*
It's true. Thanks for your warm advice.

QUOTE(ceo684 @ Oct 10 2020, 03:51 AM)
It is preferable to ensure that the RCD/MCB/isolator is from same brand. This way it will fit well when you install the busbar.
Also liability issue, if you fit proton engine into a honda MPV and using ECU from toyota, if the car blows up, I don't think insurance/mfg product liability will cover.

Also, for own house, preferably get the whole system from ABB/Hager/Schneider. These are reputable brands with easily 10-18 countries' certification.

The CE logo, to be honest is just suka suka self declaration [CE marking does not provide any specific information to the consumer. It is not a quality assurance declaration, it does not show evidence of third-party testing, and it should not be confused with any independent certification mark of the type issued by international or European notified test bodies.]
Seconded. When talking about main switch replacement you're dealing with live TNB feed of 230V at thousands of amps.
Just 0.05A is all that's needed to kill a person.

If working BEHIND the main switch isolator, that one is much safer since L and N are cut off from TNB safely. But to touch those live wires (since there is no isolator installed currently) it is a very risky thing, call an electrician.
*
Yes Sir, noted that. wink.gif

This post has been edited by chemistry: Oct 16 2020, 08:37 PM
SUSceo684
post Oct 16 2020, 09:28 PM

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QUOTE(chemistry @ Oct 16 2020, 08:36 PM)
haha, because recently read some articles about switch fuse and MCB, noticed that it is common practice to use 2P MCB as main switch.
thanks for your diagram. Appreciate it.
After watching some youtube videos I gained better illustration on this diagram.
It's true. Thanks for your warm advice.
Yes Sir, noted that.  wink.gif
*
Yes the 2P MCB is better because it cuts off both L and N (return path) together, hence it isolates the whole circuit in the house.
Because electricity is colour blind, it is not limited to just the live (typically red) wire, it can also (if there is a fault somewhere) travel along the black wire (N).
When you cut both the L and N, it is perfectly isolated.
chemistry
post Oct 16 2020, 09:33 PM

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Hi all,

I'd like to ask regarding 63A 4P RCCB.
Below is a rough picture showing how the (3P+N) from the switch fuse connect to RCCB, as seen from my shop 3phase DB.
Attached Image

I was surprised to find out that the outgoing cable from 63A switch fuse connect to the lower part of RCCB. hmm.gif

Usually it should be this way right ? --> Attached Image

Hope sifu could enlighten me.. smile.gif
SUSceo684
post Oct 16 2020, 09:44 PM

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QUOTE(chemistry @ Oct 16 2020, 09:33 PM)
Hi all,

I'd like to ask regarding 63A 4P RCCB.
Below is a rough picture showing how the (3P+N) from the switch fuse connect to RCCB, as seen from my shop 3phase DB.
Attached Image

I was surprised to find out that the outgoing cable from 63A switch fuse connect to the lower part of RCCB.  hmm.gif

Usually it should be this way right ?  --> Attached Image

Hope sifu could enlighten me..  smile.gif
*
It depends on the MCB spec.

When a MCB are marked “Line” and “Load,” the power supply conductors must be connected to the marked “Line.” These MCB cannot be reverse-fed. If “Line” and “Load” are not marked on MCB, the power supply conductors may be connected to either end. These devices are suitable for reverse-feed applications.

Attached Image
Those that say reversible line and load connections, or power supply connection=arbitrary then will work both ways.

Arbitrary doesnt mean random, but within reason, so if the line L from top, then line N also should be from top. So its not a license to have it LineL LoadN on top and LoadL LineN on bottom rclxub.gif rclxub.gif rclxub.gif

This post has been edited by ceo684: Oct 16 2020, 09:47 PM
chemistry
post Oct 16 2020, 09:53 PM

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QUOTE(ceo684 @ Oct 16 2020, 09:44 PM)
It depends on the MCB spec.

When a MCB are marked “Line” and “Load,” the power supply conductors must be connected to the marked “Line.” These MCB cannot be reverse-fed. If “Line” and “Load” are not marked on MCB, the power supply conductors may be connected to either end. These devices are suitable for reverse-feed applications.

Attached Image
Those that say reversible line and load connections, or power supply connection=arbitrary then will work both ways.

Arbitrary doesnt mean random, but within reason, so if the line L from top, then line N also should be from top. So its not a license to have it LineL LoadN on top and LoadL LineN on bottom  rclxub.gif  rclxub.gif  rclxub.gif
*
oh ! got such thing, now only know thumbsup.gif
In the above bolded statement you mentioned about MCB, is RCCB also got such type whereby supply conductors may be connected to either end?
Sorry if I asked stupid question sweat.gif

This post has been edited by chemistry: Oct 16 2020, 09:54 PM
SUSceo684
post Oct 16 2020, 10:10 PM

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QUOTE(chemistry @ Oct 16 2020, 09:53 PM)
oh ! got such thing, now only know  thumbsup.gif
In the above bolded statement you mentioned about MCB, is RCCB also got such type whereby supply conductors may be connected to either end?
Sorry if I asked stupid question  sweat.gif
*
Usually RCD is direction specific and L/N specific. They will have a diagram 1 goes to 2, 3 goes to 4, that tells the line/load side, usually RCD is top fed.

So there is planning needed to ensure that the UUU and nnn sides all work in the right directions, right ordering sequence AND last but not least working with the physical limitation of the TNB line cables which in some cases are cut so super short that it won't even reach the end of the DB box, mine is fed from center (see the big red main switch). This causes the MCB to be top fed (but its ok because this series all arbitrary supply)

Attached Image


chemistry
post Oct 16 2020, 11:15 PM

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QUOTE(ceo684 @ Oct 16 2020, 10:10 PM)
Usually RCD is direction specific and L/N specific. They will have a diagram 1 goes to 2, 3 goes to 4, that tells the line/load side, usually RCD is top fed.

So there is planning needed to ensure that the UUU and nnn sides all work in the right directions, right ordering sequence AND last but not least working with the physical limitation of the TNB line cables which in some cases are cut so super short that it won't even reach the end of the DB box, mine is fed from center (see the big red main switch). This causes the MCB to be top fed (but its ok because this series all arbitrary supply)

Attached Image
*
Attached Image
From your picture I see that one RCCB is fed from top, while another one is fed from bottom. Are these RCCBs reversible type?
SUSceo684
post Oct 17 2020, 12:27 AM

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QUOTE(chemistry @ Oct 16 2020, 11:15 PM)
Attached Image
From your picture I see that one RCCB is fed from top, while another one is fed from bottom. Are these RCCBs reversible type?
*
See the diagram, in this case yes both ways also can for the RCD because 1/2 and 2/1 from the diagram.

Attached Image

As for the MCB,
S201 range is always top feed (1 Line goes to 2 Load).
This is an older batch pic curi from internet.
Attached Image

This is my actual pic of the MCB, sorry for potato camera.
Attached Image

This post has been edited by ceo684: Oct 17 2020, 12:38 AM
chemistry
post Oct 17 2020, 01:21 AM

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QUOTE(ceo684 @ Oct 17 2020, 12:27 AM)
See the diagram, in this case yes both ways also can for the RCD because 1/2 and 2/1 from the diagram.

Attached Image

As for the MCB,
S201 range is always top feed (1 Line goes to 2 Load).
This is an older batch pic curi from internet.
Attached Image

This is my actual pic of the MCB, sorry for potato camera.
Attached Image
*
I went to check the diagram of several brands RCCB, seem like only ABB can feed either way.
Now I am a bit worried sweat.gif
I see my 4P RCCB is fed from bottom, then outgoing from top side , to the MCBs located above. Same goes to MCBs, they are fed from top side too.
(finally got the guts to open the DB to take picture LOL)
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

Despite the reverse feed, everything is alright, so far no unwanted tripping. Press the T it will trip as normal.

Just want to know, is this layout OK?

This post has been edited by chemistry: Oct 17 2020, 11:05 AM
Momo33
post Oct 17 2020, 10:31 AM

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QUOTE(chemistry @ Oct 16 2020, 09:36 PM)
haha, because recently read some articles about switch fuse and MCB, noticed that it is common practice to use 2P MCB as main switch.


thanks for your diagram. Appreciate it.
After watching some youtube videos I gained better illustration on this diagram.
It's true. Thanks for your warm advice.

yes true sometimes we have a choice .
As you have already a switch fuse installed , i said just keep it.

Let s look at the practical side.
there are cases that MCB dont trip nod.gif due to various reasons . MCB can malfunction too.
how often do you test your MCB ? hmm.gif

The choice is still yours ..
my house DB has a switch fuse
I cannot find a good reason to change it out to a MCB . can you ?
i am thinking about the risk and safety .


This post has been edited by Momo33: Oct 17 2020, 10:35 AM
chemistry
post Oct 17 2020, 10:56 AM

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QUOTE(Momo33 @ Oct 17 2020, 10:31 AM)
yes true   sometimes   we have a choice  .
As you have already a switch fuse  installed  ,  i said just keep it.

Let s look at the  practical side.
there are   cases  that MCB  dont trip   nod.gif  due to various reasons . MCB can malfunction too.
how often do  you test your MCB ?   hmm.gif

The choice is still yours ..
my house  DB has a switch fuse 
I cannot find a good reason  to change it out to  a MCB .  can you  ?
i am thinking  about the risk and safety .
*
I really have no idea, sir. I am not good in electricity thing. I just noticed many new DB using 2P MCB as main switch hence asked this question.. If you tell me switch fuse is still a good thing, I will just let it stay there until it blows (don't know when haha).
By the way, would you spare some time to comment on my shop's 3phase DB posted above? Thank you Sir.

This post has been edited by chemistry: Oct 17 2020, 11:08 AM
Momo33
post Oct 17 2020, 11:19 AM

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QUOTE(chemistry @ Oct 17 2020, 11:56 AM)
I really have no idea, sir. I am not good in electricity thing. I just noticed many new DB using 2P MCB as main switch hence asked this question.. If you tell me switch fuse is still a good thing, I will just let it stay there until it blows (don't know when haha).
By the way, would you spare some time to comment on my shop's 3phase DB posted above? Thank you Sir.
*
is your concern about the RCB device installation .
usually RCD is top feed.
what model RCD you have there ..? DELIXI ?



This post has been edited by Momo33: Oct 17 2020, 11:23 AM
chemistry
post Oct 17 2020, 11:28 AM

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QUOTE(Momo33 @ Oct 17 2020, 11:19 AM)
is your  concern  about the RCB device installation .
usually  RCD is top feed. 
what model  RCD  you have there ..?
*
Yes sir, I am particularly concerned about the reversely-fed RCCB and MCBs.
The RCCB model is CDL7463YC. Brand "Delixi".

Yesterday night I read one article, which says "if the RCD does not specify LINE and LOAD on the terminals, mean it can be reverse feed. If it does specify, then must follow accordingly". I am not sure this statement true or not.
Momo33
post Oct 17 2020, 11:36 AM

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QUOTE(chemistry @ Oct 17 2020, 12:28 PM)
Yes sir, I am particularly concerned about the reversely-fed RCCB and MCBs.
The RCCB model is CDL7463YC. Brand "Delixi".

Yesterday night I read one article, which says "if the RCD does not specify LINE and LOAD on the terminals, mean it can be reverse feed. If it does specify, then must follow accordingly". I am not sure this statement true or not.
*
lookin at the circuit diagram on the delixi rcd ...its top feed . so no worries . thumbsup.gif

Are you facing constant tripping or very often trip ?



This post has been edited by Momo33: Oct 17 2020, 11:41 AM
chemistry
post Oct 17 2020, 11:58 AM

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QUOTE(Momo33 @ Oct 17 2020, 11:36 AM)
lookin at the  circuit diagram  on the delixi  rcd ...its  top feed .  so no worries .  :thumbsup:

Are you facing  constant tripping  or very often trip ?
*
Yeah, circuit says top feed, but in actual it was bottom fed instead.
Could you see the Outgoing (from switch fuse) actually connect to the bottom of that RCD.

The previous Maxguard RCD did not trip when I pressed "T" . Hence the replacement. Asked an electrician to come and he had only this brand for 63A 4P 100mA RCD. If 300mA, he has Maxguard. I chose 100mA.
Momo33
post Oct 17 2020, 12:17 PM

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QUOTE(chemistry @ Oct 17 2020, 12:58 PM)
Yeah, circuit says top feed, but in actual it was bottom fed instead.
Could you see the Outgoing (from switch fuse) actually connect to the bottom of that RCD.

The previous Maxguard RCD did not trip when I pressed "T" . Hence the replacement. Asked an electrician to come and he had only this brand for 63A 4P 100mA RCD.  If 300mA, he has Maxguard. I chose 100mA.
*
i check the circuit diagram of the delixi again . seems you can connect top or bottom . no problem . nod.gif

the maxguard is faulty .
possible can be hit the lightning surge or the trip mechanism mechanical is jam .

its recommended to test the RCB a few times in a year.



This post has been edited by Momo33: Oct 17 2020, 12:20 PM
chemistry
post Oct 17 2020, 12:22 PM

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QUOTE(Momo33 @ Oct 17 2020, 12:17 PM)
i check the circuit diagram of the delixi  again  .  seems   you can  connect  top or bottom  .  no problem .  nod.gif

the maxguard is  faulty  . 
possible can be  hit the lightning surge or the trip mechanism   mechanical  is jam .
*
Relieved to hear that.
I press T every month. Just early this month found out it won't trip.
Could you shed some light how to interpret the diagram, particularly to check whether it can connect top or bottom?

Yesterday i studied many diagrams, only the ABB diagram labels 1/2 at top, 2/1 at bottom. Most other brands label 1 at top, 2 at bottom.

This post has been edited by chemistry: Oct 17 2020, 12:24 PM
Momo33
post Oct 17 2020, 01:09 PM

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QUOTE(chemistry @ Oct 17 2020, 01:22 PM)
Relieved to hear that.
I press T every month. Just early this month found out it won't trip.
Could you shed some light how to interpret the diagram,  particularly to check whether it can connect top or bottom?

Yesterday i studied many diagrams, only the ABB diagram labels 1/2 at top, 2/1 at bottom. Most other brands label 1 at top, 2 at bottom.
*
its best to check the manufacturer installation guide .
when u buy a RCD device they put the guide in the box.

in this case they dont specify . so top or bottom is OK.

the diagram is a guide but not tell what is right regarding installation.




chemistry
post Oct 17 2020, 02:10 PM

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QUOTE(Momo33 @ Oct 17 2020, 01:09 PM)
its best to check the manufacturer  installation guide .
when u buy  a RCD device  they put the guide  in the box. 

in this case they dont specify .  so top or bottom is OK.

the diagram is a guide  but  not  tell what is right regarding installation.
*
Unfortunately there is no guide/manual inside the box . What a cap ayam...
Momo33
post Oct 17 2020, 02:33 PM

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QUOTE(chemistry @ Oct 17 2020, 03:10 PM)
Unfortunately there is no guide/manual inside the box . What a cap ayam...
*
yes... when buying china made power devices need to check out the specs , compliance standards ..etc .
or just go for the better brand you trust .

something always best to buy the same manufacturer type devices in the DB box.
mix types is a risk . you need to study more the specs, and requirements of the devices. dont trust any electricians . you need to know !

in short dont simply buy any without knowing the details and facts./ do your research first thumbsup.gif



This post has been edited by Momo33: Oct 17 2020, 03:13 PM

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