Just saw this. Apparently a Fluence owner is not happy with the rain noise on the roof of the car. And when he opened up the roof, he found that paper board is used for soundproofing the roof.

Does anyone have any idea if this is a "standard" practice in using this material for this particular model, whether the overseas model only used this paper board, or is it Renault Malaysia (or Tan Chong) that used this paper board for soundproofing?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=102...size=1600%2C900

VIVE LA FRANCE!!

This post has been edited by newmaster: Nov 17 2015, 04:36 PM

Paper is a good sound absorption... just not so fireproof laaa...not to mention ant love it

This post has been edited by calvin_ng: Nov 17 2015, 04:37 PM

Let's leave the opinion whether paper is good, average or bad soundproofing material, although I for one wouldn't be too pleased to see that being used for soundproofing.

Back to the question, does anyone know if this is "standard" practice in using this material for this particular Fluence model, whether the overseas model only used this paper board, or is it Renault Malaysia (or Tan Chong) that used this paper board for soundproofing?

Will never know... also depends... some japs model dont even have paper just bare steel...

Be thankful that Renault/TC didn't give you this 3M "soundproofing"

some might be suprised when they 1st know about corrugated paperboard used as automotive material, its can be found in many low end models mainly for interial purposes.

1. your sunvisor is made of corrugated paperboard taped to a piece wire frame, before wraped by pvc sleeve.
2. certain portion of the roof and boot is glued with the same material not only as sound absorbent but primarily as a filler agent between "headlining-and-panel" or "carpet-and-panel" in preventing the flapping noise.
3. you can find the corrugated plasticboard in 1st gen vios, where it seperates the rear seats with the car boot.
etc..

This post has been edited by yamato: Nov 17 2015, 05:24 PM

not the best soundproofing but it's cheap

You will likely get this in lower range or cheap Japanese cars, though you won't be seeing this in more premium continental cars. Surprising that they used paper boards rather than proper soundproofing sheets which won't cost much anyway. Might as well they don't put anything in the roof if they thought of using paper boards, but then they don't expect owners to open up the roof to have a peek.

Certainly doesn't look too good or "professional". More to a cutting-cost exercise that they have to resort to using paper board as a soundproofing medium? Don't think the difference will be too significant anyway when compared to bare (without anything in the roof).

I hate to say it, but even the Volkswagen Passat has the same sort of cardboard on the top of its roof. It's bigger though but still very disappointing when you see it.

maybe special kind of cardboard??

I've asked Megane owners on a German forum, maybe they can say something about how their car looks like.

But yeah, at least got sound proofing, compared to the Vios.

How do other cars look like? What material is used there?

This post has been edited by kadajawi: Nov 17 2015, 06:58 PM

Most of you might be surprised. Car manufacture will find way to cut cost. U think save RM500 for a car is little? If one month they can produce 500 cars that will be RM250k saving.
My previous company supply sealant to most car manufacture in Malaysia. Too bad they can't get into P1. The same sealant P2 used could be the same as your so call import cars.

RM 500? Huge savings. Car manufacturers would go for even smaller savings. I've even heard that for example the engines VW produces that go to Audi, VW, Skoda and Seat can be different despite supposedly being the same. The engines that go to Skoda and Seat may have less neat cable arrangements, cheaper cables, maybe higher manufacturing tolerances, or maybe parts that don't pass quality standards for Audi and VW go to Skoda and Seat. etc. Source is someone who IIRC has talked to someone working for VW.

Really? Have you seen it? Perhaps the CKD version here has skimped on some of the fine parts such as the soundproofing material.

The Volkswagen is not a really premium brand to begin with when compared to Mercedes and BMW.

To be frank, if car manufacturers chose to use cardboards as soundproofing material, they might as well don't put anything and just leave the roof or other parts of the car empty as it is. It's rather hilarious to see cardboards used as soundproofing when the raw material of the soundproofing isn't too costly. Maybe around RM100 thereabouts.

What if it works? I mean, yes, it rather cheap looking, but pragmatic. I haven't tried it, I haven't compared it, but what if it just simply works? What's wrong with it then?

You are not getting the point which is comprehensible judging from your previous silly posts. Anything works. Even if you use some old clothes or newspapers, you stuck those things in the roof of the car they will work. It's only the magnitude of difference will be rather insignificant.

Erm, that is obvious. I mean, maybe cardboard does work well. Maybe it isn't ordinary cardboard. Who knows. All we have is a low res photo of some material that looks like cardboard.

http://hasnizamsamat.blogspot.my/2010/10/a...-proof.html?m=1

Check out the link..alza only using cardboard tong ikan for insulation..lol

That not carboard....that polisteren... few factor why they use plisteren...easy/cheap to mold..to make sure thecsurface is flat enough due to the design of floor fam.

top kek reply

what is tong ikan?
the thick styrofoam?

Renault Malaysia what do you have to say...

The fluence is not a cheap car, yet they skim on such things.

Would those air bag deploy during accident? Maybe being swap out with baloons.

Man, I would not even touch this car, even given fifty percent discount. Who knows what else they cut...

exactly..

I think he meant Styrofoam material. Cardboard fish tank. hahaha.

Where did you see it? Is that cardboard on your own car, assuming you drive the Passat?

not sure abt vw..but this kind of stuff can be related to rebadge version of some model..sirion/boon to myvi..or even ckd model.

buy cheap car like that laa, noisy. luckily potong car not soo noisy just heard engine roarrrrr

i dont think they meant to use it as sound insulation. just want to raise the platform a bit from the floor pan...
look at this http://bitumensheets.blogspot.my/2009/04/l...ndproofing.html

There is no rocket science as in "there is no ordinary cardboard". It's either a cardboard or not. The difference in terms of noise insulation between a vehicle that has cardboard and one that does not have one is very minimal. It won't reduce sound of the rain drops a lot, in fact negligible. It will however change the tone of the rain drops to the metal roof by altering the frequency, but the difference will not be tangible. To EFFECTIVELY reduce the sound from the ie. soundproofing the roof, you will need mass or sound deadening material which can be a combination of different materials in the roof.

The cardboard is cheap, and it will work, just a tiny bit. If the difference is negligible, it might be a better idea not to put anything on the roof. By putting something on the roof, the car manufacturer has already thought of soundproofing the roof, in some ways. For just a mere RM50-100 worth of material, that would bring more tangible improvements rather than RM5 cost of cardboard pieces that are stuck on the roof. Might as well don't put anything.

Very common. My 2006 smart forfour has corrugated cardboard and styrofoam as insulation. After few years, both will disintegrated into dust. Mine does. Now going to replace with wool or something similar.

Actually, the Fluence as with any other cars costing RM120k+/- being sold in Malaysia are cheap cars. They are only costly when they are subjected to taxes by the government when the cars are brought into the country either in CKD or CBU versions.

The distributor/dealer of the Renault *may* have cut the cost by omitting or replacing some things in the car, for instance this insulation material that is being used on this Fluence. Looks like nobody here knows if the Fluence models sold in the overseas market are on this same cardboard material .

common. Vios and Camry uses thin plastic boards to separate the back seat and boot. But the material is good for sound proofing... like using egg trays for room sound proofing.

Also, ask your car mechanic for most cars to remove bumper.... polystyrene inserts everywhere

This post has been edited by Anubis77: Nov 18 2015, 08:43 AM

Cardboard will not disintegrate. If it does, the material is likely a foam type, dense foam which is commonly used for soundproofing. It will deteriorate with heat and break into small pieces in time, turn to dust as you say. But not cardboard. Cardboard will stay the same for years. Cardboard is a material used for packing boxes, the same boxes that are used for LCD TV panels, amplifiers etc.

Different application you are citing there. We are talking about the roof, not some separation for back seat and boot or other parts of the car. Those can be introduced to reduce vibration or something else, other than noise.

was with an automotive company for a few months many years ago and during that time, saw the process of CKD of a Japanese make. basically, they have to follow the specs given e.g. if the floor lining specifies felt material and thickness 15mm, then they have to follow. only thing is, the quality that they can get locally. saw the difference in the carpet between local and japan and just visually and by feel alone, can see the carpet from japan is better quality. the Engineer told me there's nothing they can do as locally that's the best they can source.

You are mentioning that Renault using cheap materials right? well what I am saying is that all over the car, manufacturers uses cheap materials there you dont see it; especially where you dont see it. So its common to use cheap materials in car. And the other part is that like the egg tray example.... cheap material but good sound proofing.. just looks cheap and ugly. lol.

Well. Those examples you cite, they may be cheap, but it serves the application. But not in the case of the roof of the car, when it is cheap but it actually doesn't serve the purpose, it is negligible in terms of soundproofing. Those things you pointed out, they may be necessary items not only for separation but support of the fittings in the car (not necessarily solely for soundproofing). Whereas the roof, you don't need to put anything on it as it is just fine. If you want to put something on the roof, it is better to put something that is effective than something that is not. But in this case, it is a case of cutting-cost, introducing something that will bring minor or negligible effects. Other than the showing of the car manufacturer (or distributor of Renault in Malaysia, either one), cutting-cost to this extent, choosing to use a cheap and ineffective material for soundproofing when you can spend a bit more, likely not more than RM100 to use something that is more efficient and serves the purpose.

I guess then someone needs to do a comparison between with and without cardboard to find out. From the looks, it does look negligible. But who knows till its tested. Like those individuals selling light fibre cut out boards to attach into engine bays to dampen noise... not sure how effective are those. Material seems cheap but they sell it like RM100 and more. And if egg tray materials are good for sound proofing, may should put it into the cars.. cheap and effective... lol

It appears you do not have some basic knowledge on soundproofing. Those who are into hifi especially room acoustics will know that egg trays are not meant for soundproofing. It is more to provide minimal absorption and diffusion, a very cheap solution for music listening in hifi applications where people do not have budget for costly room acoustic products. For soundproofing, you need absorption, the higher absorption the better. Hence foam which is good in absorption. The denser and thicker the better as it will be able to absorb more, being a more effective soundproofing material.

By the way, there isn't any need to find out whether there is a difference with or without cardboard, and the need to do a comparison. I can tell you right now that if it's cardboard, in a blind test you will likely not be able to tell the difference in sound when it rains. Maybe in the frequency of 10 times you will get it correct in 5 tries.

Meaning you are the expert? And you opinion and ears needs no scientific validation? Things have to be factual right?

https://www.usc.edu/CSSF/History/2012/Projects/J1301.pdf

Some research done... with this atleast we can say you are correct la...

BTW chart to show what is 13Db

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html

I'm surely wasting my time with you. Not that I am an expert and validation isn't required. You can do all the test if you want. But as I have said earlier, the things will turn out as it will be. The most you will get reduction of 1dB or maybe 2 dB via dB meter. You may measure the readings and get a measurement. The sound levels may or may not go down if the cardboard is ineffective in blocking or absorbing the sound. In other words, it may not even go down 1 dB, no difference at all. The tone of the sound of rain drops may change, but the intensity remains.

As I have reiterated, a test can be done. Even if the measurements, (objective) are proven to have some "minor" difference in sound levels, subjectively if you take the blind test you will fail the test if your ears cannot pick up the differences.

Get it?

Right Mr Expert!

Sometimes, some things don't need validation. It just takes some common sense and experience, with some knowledge in room acoustics. You can do test and measurements, nobody is stopping nobody. I am not stopping you. In fact I will be happy if someone does the blind test! BUT, it will be a futile test as I have mentioned, with the cardboard, one can already expect the results.

But I have to say, some people claim to have GOLDEN ears and can pick up the most minute differences. However, in a blind test, they often fail.

Please don't call me an expert. I just have some experience. I used to use an SPL meter to measure the sound levels from my hifi system years ago, not some dB app built in handphones but a proper SPL meter. I'm not that techy anymore these days as I'm getting old.

Insulating the roof with cardboards is quite common actually.
Cheap and effective.

https://www.facebook.com/shorty5.kelvin/pho...pe=3&permPage=1
https://www.facebook.com/shorty5.kelvin/pho...pe=3&permPage=1

https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...970&oe=56F1ACC2
https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...2ab&oe=56ED1387

What fighting here ?

Anyone is really owner of the car ?

I did extensive soundproofing to my car (Passat) before so I know.

I didn't exactly hold the 2 boards, but they sure look like card boards to me with the VW logos on them. I'm not surprised if that's really the case either.

What's important actually is the headliner itself, the headliner used in my car and other continentals are made of thick foam and cotton textile, so the sandwich board they use between the headliner and the metal roof can be just corrugated cardboard pieces or some sort of treated resin.

The other luxury cars like BMW (latest models) and Mercedes (W204, W212) also have like boards in their roofs just like VW. Lexus actually uses 3M thinsulate in their door panels, can also see thick sponge like foams stuffed in the B pillars as well.

Actually that's not true. Comparatively speaking - stock to stock on a rainy day - comparing a typical Japanese sedan vs the Passat. Most mainstream Japanese car roof are just bare metal with a thin piece of headliner, so the roof really does sound like those zinc roof houses... very noisy. The Passat had corrugated cardbox pieces in between and a thick headliner piece so noise was also naturally a lot less so...

And when you factor in the prices - if we assume RM100 is the cost of soundproofing per car vs RM10 for cardboard pieces, the savings is rather substantial when you look at the number of cards they produce every year.

I don't see the big deal here. It is obviously effective up to a certain degree or else they wouldn't have put it in.
These are big automotive companies, that would have SPL meter , specialized equipment to measure so if it wasn't effective, they wouldn't have put it in.

Does cbu passat also used same material as ckd passat?

Same. Even the German luxury 3 continentals also doing the same things for their rides.

If this the type of styrofoam we found on packing, it catch fire faster than dry paper, and release poison gas when burn. It very dangerous material to use inside car cabin.

Tan Chong the culprit cons by reduce the car quality in Malaysia.

Duno why still got ppl buy this stupid car. Its not even French. This Fluence is actually a Korean car. Lousy piece of crap

It is peculiar that this model from Renault although French, is not being sold in Europe but rather in some Latin American countries, Middle East, North Africa, Egypt, China, Mexico and lastly, Malaysia. In other words, it is not an international model despite the car coming from an established car manufacturer such as Renault. Perhaps it is a budget car aimed for specific (not-so-demanding) markets.

The car is very rare on our roads though I have seen one or two Fluence earlier this year. The back of the car looks out-of-proportion and weird. Coming out from Tan Chong, not sure if the car is further stripped down in some areas, as what that was shown here.

After all, every buyers also will have their opinion on other cars... no point debating on who or why ppl buy... juz like honda buyers will criticize toyota buyers... nissan criticize the mazda buyers.... no end on this loop.... everyone always deem to assume the decision they made are the best and perfect as they had owned that particular car.... no point debate on which car is the best after all.... just my 2 cents....

Perfect answer. Everyone is free to make his/her own choice! The choice is usually based on issues that appeal to the buyer!

You are right, no point in debating which is a better car. Better car for who?

In economics sense, an additional RM90 may be "a lot" for the car manufacturer, but if they cannot spend that additional RM90, then might as well not spend RM5-10 on a piece of cardboard that won't bring any noticeable difference to the roof, if any.

What is a headliner? Although the Passat (or Jetta) has cardbox pieces on the roof, it is not only the carboard isn't it, but some soundproofing material stuck on the piece of cardboard. Just like the stock soundproofing of the BMW as shown in the photos. The cardboard may act as a support for the insulation sheets in the soundproofing of the car. If just the cardboard alone, the effects will be almost negligible.

May I ask what soundproofing material have you used for the roof of your Passat in place of the stock soundproofing of the car? Is there any tangible improvement in the soundproofing after you have done it?

This post has been edited by Volkswagen2: Nov 19 2015, 02:10 PM

It's a mainstream car, there's no reason to spend more than they should. The profit on mainstream cars are low enough as it is.

The headliner is actually the immediate ceiling where you can touch, it's actually a combination of the plastic frame, the cotton or leather cover and a thick or thin piece of foam inside that covers the metal ceiling, so the corrugated cardboard piece acts as insulation.

So what I have now is a vibration dampening mat that is pasted on bare metal roof sheet, the stock corrugated cardboard piece is placed between the dampening mat and another piece of heat and noise insulating foam layer and finally covered by the headliner. Needless to say, the noise from heavy raindrops is more drastically muted and surprisingly there is a noticeable improvement to the bass of the audio and the overall audio quality. Using a sound meter registered about 2 to 3 dBA drop in ambient noise.

Er. They did sell it in Germany, but since no one wants a C segment sedan in Germany they stopped. They do sell it in Southern Europe, where people do buy it. I've seen quite a few in Spain.

Also, it is basically a Megane sedan. Just like the Jetta is a Golf sedan. They only gave it a new name.

Calling it a Korean car is plain wrong. It is built there, but the design and engineering is from Europe.