As per topic , how do we differentiate direct and looping points ? I've requested my electrician to add 8 points all direct from DB for my tv area but i only saw few wires there . Each direct point supposed to have 3 wires ?

Every point surely got 3 wires of LNE...

If the point is looped to another point then you see extra wires.

Why you want to have direct from DB for all 8 points?
TV appliances won't consumer a lot of electricity, needless to have single direct point from DB.

Looping will save you a lot of wire and tedious work for the wireman, as well as cost.

Whether to consider direct or loop is about the electricity consumption of particular point.

Looping in renovation means they are using the nearest plug point and pull the wire from there. Usually won't really post much hazard unless the plug point you will use for heating or cooling appliance.

By see how many wire, you not able to judge is direct or loop, becoz the concept is, direct is taking power direct from DB, you need at lease 3 wire for normal 13A power point, while loop is sharing power with the nearest power point, that also you will see 3 wire or 6 wire (if the wire still share to other point from this outlet)

But basically, you do not need 8 point ALL direct from DB, the best way is 1 point from DB, then all other 7 point share with that direct point will do, TV and other player not really consume lot of power

Yes it will do the job but i heard it can affect the reliability and even performance .
Should've Seek for more opinions earlier lol but what is done is done . For safety reason i dun mind paying extra , Just wanto knw how to diferentiate to avoid getting cheated . I dowan to pay direct DB charges just for looping only .

This post has been edited by telur: Jul 20 2015, 03:50 AM

Looping won't cause reliability or performance, as long as it is not over-used, or over the rated power/current of the wire.

If every point got direct wire, you see tons of wire being pulled over your place.

The important is to ensure power hungry point/equipment is not using looping method, but direct from DB, eg, heater or those need to use more than 8~10A one.

By switching off the individual circuit breaker normally like 10A/15A20A at the DB will roughly know which point being shared/looped around.

8 direct to TV woverkill lah, usually will do 2 at most 3 direct to TV. Why? because the 2nd and 3rd can be use as spare if the other failed, and some people prefer to split it for Amps, AVR and Woofer as these can sometime total up above 1000Watt.

Too many direct you will have headache if you want to put in a lighting isolation / surged protector. How do you protect all the equipment if all in difference plugs? And that also make the wall Ugly.

For me, each side of the wall, I have at least 2 powerpoints direct from DB will do.

This post has been edited by weikee: Jul 20 2015, 09:06 AM

I can understand you.
The work is done, you just want to make sure are they loop or direct, so that you can pay accordingly and do not get cheated. Am i right?
Direct means, every point is directly connected to your DB. Loop means only 1 line come out from the DB then further distribute from the 1st point to the rest of the points.
So what you need to do is, get your wire man explain to you how is the wiring of each point run. You should have 8 different wiring routes from your DB to your living hall.

It's fairly simple to test. Connect some power-insensitive device to each of the power point (i.e. those devices that won't give trouble if directly turned off - for instance, small fan or power adapter). Turn on all these devices.

Then, in the DB board, take out the circuit breaker for each of the newly installed points. If only one device switches off, then you have a direct connection. If multiple devices switches off, then you have a loop circuit.

This post has been edited by cwtien: Jul 20 2015, 11:04 AM

In that case, there is 2 way you can check, 1st is checking your own, off individual circuit at DB 1 by 1 to see is all 8 point are cut off separately? But sometime this 1 not really work becoz even they having diff wire from DB to TV, but they still using same circuit to giving power, so you may find out some plug are cut off together as well. If this happen, you can request your contractor to test the point for you, by removing the joining wire at DB and show you all the point had diff wire, but not looping some where.

some contractor companies will charge you the same for direct and looping..... just that they will determine which gets direct and which gets looped....
for my case, i pull one 4mm direct, then use eubiq track....
my idea for looping, never have it side by side..... if i want side by side, just use track or extension cords....

Doing the earth leakage will be more effective, since this is the most important check to be done before shifting in

Not some, most of them are doing this shit

first thing first, ur incoming is single phase or 3 phase. If single, loop is only option

secondly, ur main DB got any spare, there are limit for the numbers or ELCB to be installed, hence, loop is only option.

Thirdly, lopping is equivalent a extension port.

Remember, just dont overload it. There are always risk if loop.

Does hood needs direct point or can it ride on looping point?

This post has been edited by honkkydorry: Jul 20 2015, 04:32 PM

can, small current usage

double

This post has been edited by peri peri: Jul 20 2015, 04:41 PM

remember, cable size also plays an important part..... you can loop if you are using thicker cables.... all according you what you want..... with 4mm cable i can turn on 1 induction, 1 electric kettle and 1 oven toaster at the same time, roughly around 4-5 kW

How about fridge? Not sharing it with other appliances of course but the powerpoint is loop from the nearest power point. Is that ok or must it have its own direct point from the main distribution box?

better not, let it stand alone. looping with others like water heater or oven or microwave can cause uneven current distribution. fridge is meant for 7/24 operation. dont disturb it, so that it can serve u long

Basically for kitchen appliances, all shall be direct, not looping.
Fridge sure will be having 1 dedicated plug point, original can do.
Rice cooker, microwave oven can share 1 plug point but cannot operate 2 together, is not the plug point can't take it, is your extension plug can't.
Oven sure have to use its own.

Thanks peri-peri and Supersound.

To make your wiring work simple, lights, fans, TV wiring using looping won't post much issue. The only issue i can see here is, when that particular fuse blows, you may end up whole house no light
That's why 3 phase wiring sometimes are good. My house is 3 phase wiring, I can have my ground floor tripped during thunderstorm but upstair still got power
So for lights, you can separate it by zone, like living hall 1 fuse, kitchen and dining hall 1 fuse.

Im having headache with the kitchen in my new apt. There is simply not enough plug points and the few that are in there are not strategically placed. To put in new dedicated plug points means I have to hack across the ceiling to DB right? The box is about 12ft away. Need to check whether current DB can add more fuse.

If those plug points that you are not using, may consider shifting them first

you need to check with your new apt allows you to hack anot.... some apt cant hack as the walls are load bearing...

supersound you can actually split into two section or more with single phase, just need to loop the L & N from incoming,

i did that for my house - incoming connect to two diffrent double pole switch then to elcb. one for downstair and one for upstair. they wont trip together. either way the connection should be incoming L/N to Double pole to ELCB x 3 min (one for outlets, one for Wh and one for lighting) to MCB generally malaysia used two elcb only.

good about 3 phase if one the tnb fuse in burn or down time, you still got 2 other phase might be up.

Sorry for bumping such an old topic!

But does anyone know what is the suggested amount of plug points to be looped from another plug point (direct)?

I recently did some reno on my kitchen and i think the contractor looped around 5 plug points (one for fridge, rice cooker, blender, baking oven, wall fan) and another loop for water heater (dedicated switch).. so all these points were looped from one single plug point.. is it safe?

My DB box is quite far from the kitchen.. what is the best way normally to pull from there? Using casing?

2.5mm cable current carrying capacity is 21A
Assuming TNB supply is 230V

2000W kettle 8.69A
1000W Rice cooker 4.34A
2200W 60L oven 9.56A
3600W water heater 15.65A
1800W blender 7.82A

Haven't add electric cooker hob (not the blow wind hood) into calculation
Sounds like faiya waiting to happen unless the cabling is based on 4mm (32A capacity) or 6mm (41A capacity) backbone which I really doubt..if all 5 points and the WH is on it should trip the MCB. If its as per what you described the contractor just made a 5-way power strip out of the original one socket and default wiring spec from developer is based on 2.5mm it is not enough for 5 sockets on the same backbone to DB box.

Personally I run 4mm direct to DB for kitchen outlets (twin sockets aka 2x 13A) for each 4mm backbone so I don't need to worry about wiring getting warm when I have lots of appliance loads.

ST guideline for WH is that it must be on own dedicated circuit with 10mA RCD.

This post has been edited by ceo684: Jul 27 2020, 02:19 AM

Hi hope someone here can help.

My condo reno was almost done but I have just found out that all three-point plugs were looped from the existing plug points. They also looped the power point for the fridge to four other power points in kitchen, meant for microwave oven, kettle, rice cooker, blender.

The original power point for the fridge is 20Amp, 2.5mm cable. The contractor suggested to swap the MCB from 20Amp to 32Amp to solve the issue.

Is this workable? Will this pose electronical hazard or damage to the electrical appliances? Or shall I insist on pulling new wiring direct from DB? There will be some hacking and plaster ceiling work from DB to kitchen around 4m distance.

At the beginning I did tell the sales agent that all the three-point plugs especially to the kitchen must be new wiring pulled directly from the DB.

Thanks for any advice.

This post has been edited by Jewyn: Aug 25 2022, 10:49 PM

Absolutely DO NOT do this. The MCB serves to protect everything downstream, and that includes the 2.5 mm² wires from overheating and catching fire. Changing the MCB from 20 A to 32 A means the usage of all the sockets may cause more than the rated amperes to flow in the wires, causing a fire.

Your best option is to pull new wires as you allude for the sockets that have high power appliances.

Your alternate is to only use a single appliance at a time from the group of sockets that are looped together. You may use more than one appliance together, but the total power used must be less than, say, 4000 W among all the looped sockets. (Edit: Suruhanjaya Tenaga's latest rating for 2.5 mm² wires are 18 A to 28 A depending on installation methods (which determines the maximum temperature the wires will reach), so you may have to install a 16 A MCB in the future for a total of about 3,600 W maximum power draw from the appliances)

In practical terms: (just example power consumption, please check your actual appliances)
1. The fridge is always powered, say 300 W. You use the microwave (1500 W). You are still okay with this circuit.
2. The fridge is always powered (300 W), you bake a chicken in the oven (2500 W), and then you soften butter in the microwave (1500 W). You are NOT okay now.

In number 2, the wires would have caught fire if you changed the MCB from 20 A to 32 A.

This post has been edited by stormer.lyn: Aug 26 2022, 09:12 AM

My condo reno was almost done but I have just found out that all three-point plugs were looped from the existing plug points.
This is OK. Its allowed to loop.

They also looped the power point for the fridge to four other power points in kitchen, meant for microwave oven, kettle, rice cooker, blender.
This is OK in theory but its silly because the 20A MCB will keep tripping on overload.
Hence for heavy load appliance use 4mm direct LNE to a double socket.

The original power point for the fridge is 20Amp, 2.5mm cable. The contractor suggested to swap the MCB from 20Amp to 32Amp to solve the issue.
This is not silly, this is ILLEGAL and BODO suggestion from unqualified electrician

Is this workable? Will this pose electronical hazard or damage to the electrical appliances? Or shall I insist on pulling new wiring direct from DB? There will be some hacking and plaster ceiling work from DB to kitchen around 4m distance.
Safety belt rubs on your neck and is painful? Let me cut your safety belt with scissors and we go for a drive. That's what's making the C20-C32 change of MCB will do
Pull from DB lah only 4m omg. The wires loose cut only cost a starbucks drink even for 4mm. Find a better electrician not this kind of kiamsiap dangerous BODO that don't understand current carrying capacity and putting people's safety at risk.

Loose cut = buying what we need (short lengths) not the whole roll (if we dont want to keep stock for a 100m roll)

At the beginning I did tell the sales agent that all the three-point plugs especially to the kitchen must be new wiring pulled directly from the DB.
Did you get it in writing? with a full set of LNE dedicated line and a dedicated MCB to be added inside DB box. DB box may (most likely) need to be upgraded with a bigger box to accomodate additional MCBs.

This post has been edited by ceo684: Aug 26 2022, 01:08 PM

Thank you stormer.lyn and ceo684 for your advice.

Quotation stated that, "TO LAY ADDITIONAL OR RELOCATE 13amp SOCKET POINTS C/W SCHNEIDER SOCKET, HACKING, CONCEALING WORK AND MAKE GOOD OF DAMAGE WALL. *1 NOS = RM150* Also, I clarified with main con that this means laying new wiring from DB.

Now that I have already paid for all these power points as part of the progress payment, but main con refused to rectify and asked me to hire another contractor to do it, because it involves reopening the plaster ceiling, hacking and painting.

Can anyone recommend a certified electrician? I will pull new wiring from DB as you suggested for safety purpose.


Thanks in advance.

This is exactly the issue where most if not all, Malaysians homeowners are facing with electrical stuff, there are some reputable licensed electricians promoting themselves at YouTube videos on the proper way of doing but they won't come cheap, though you can explore. The other way is to check the list of contractors in ST website and give them a call, but my experience doing that is those that come are not the one you contacted. Seems to be another case of licensed electricians sub out to outsiders..

Also, if the electricians are not following ST guideline - do you know that you can report them to the ST? Make sure you have the documents and proofs - I believe your sub con electrician are 80% not licensed one, and this is actually something that can be brought up.

This post has been edited by davidlow7: Aug 27 2022, 12:15 PM

Thanks davidlow7.

How do I report to ST and how to collect documents and proofs? Today I have just found out that they already swapped the MCB from 20A to 32A although I asked them not to

Thanks again.

The way of refusing to do is another gangsta tactic liao. Sad to say. By doing so they are completely washing hand "not my house syndrome".
If you report - they know where you stay and who you are liao. I know yes, the right way is report, but these buggers can be ruthless one.

The haunt for proper wireman/chargeman is in https://www.facebook.com/groups/wireman/ - insist on at least a PW1/2 for single phase or PW3/4 for three phase.

Parts are not expensive but working in the DB box is extremely dangerous if you are not trained.
I think stormer.lyn doesn't do commercial jobs (Correct me if im wrong) but I know bobowyc does commercial, you can check with them.

I relocated to SG so can't accept job atm.

Thank you miss ceo684 for recommending me, but to be honest I have no proper training. But I have done a few houses DB before, mostly Single Phase. 3-Phase I'm not so sure yet. I have yet to schedule a certificate class as atm work quite hectic and workers not enough, hence I have to be on site and hands on. :\

Jewyn; I can help to go over and see what needs to be done, but there is a waiting time of about 1-2 months as I have other pending projects to address at the moment and due to one of my worker's on/off working routine its quite difficult to handle the site, as I have only 2 workers, including me is 3. lol. Trying to look for trustable workers but not so easy. Most dont have valid permit/documents hence its hard to find. If you can pm me your location also can, so I see when I'm free I can drop by to check. If need my number I can provide also.

You relocated to SG? Story us some more.... when? Did you go for work, or for some other reason and then now working there? I guess this is good news, we make our own future, so best of fortune in yours!

I actually do commercial work now, since I left the O&G support company a couple of years back. But at the moment taking jobs from customers who are recommended by previous customers. This way, at least the outcome that I only want to do proper specced work is already advised to the future customer. We also want quality customers, right?

PS - I also have no PW# cert at all .... but have 2 pieces of paper that kinda say I qualified in E&E or something like that before. Oh, and I have an air cond installation and servicing cert achieved a few months back.... but still only doing friends and family air conds for now. Not ready to do commercially yet

Thank you all for your advice.

I guess licensed or not, if the main contractor and electrician are responsible and professional, this issue will not arise.

Can anyone advise how to "collect proof" of the wrong wiring? and how much does it cost?

Thanks again.