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 LYN Catholic Fellowship V01 (Group), For Catholics (Roman or Eastern)

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de1929
post Oct 22 2015, 03:13 PM

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QUOTE(khool @ Oct 22 2015, 03:12 PM)
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

PART THREE
LIFE IN CHRIST

SECTION TWO
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

CHAPTER TWO
"YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF"

ARTICLE 8
THE EIGHTH COMMANDMENT

    You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.253

    It was said to the men of old, "You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn."254

2464 The eighth commandment forbids misrepresenting the truth in our relations with others. This moral prescription flows from the vocation of the holy people to bear witness to their God who is the truth and wills the truth. Offenses against the truth express by word or deed a refusal to commit oneself to moral uprightness: they are fundamental infidelities to God and, in this sense, they undermine the foundations of the covenant.

I. LIVING IN THE TRUTH

2465 The Old Testament attests that God is the source of all truth. His Word is truth. His Law is truth. His "faithfulness endures to all generations."255 Since God is "true," the members of his people are called to live in the truth.256

2466 In Jesus Christ, the whole of God's truth has been made manifest. "Full of grace and truth," he came as the "light of the world," he is the Truth.257 "Whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness."258 The disciple of Jesus continues in his word so as to know "the truth [that] will make you free" and that sanctifies.259 To follow Jesus is to live in "the Spirit of truth," whom the Father sends in his name and who leads "into all the truth."260 To his disciples Jesus teaches the unconditional love of truth: "Let what you say be simply 'Yes or No.'"261

2467 Man tends by nature toward the truth. He is obliged to honor and bear witness to it: "It is in accordance with their dignity that all men, because they are persons . . . are both impelled by their nature and bound by a moral obligation to seek the truth, especially religious truth. They are also bound to adhere to the truth once they come to know it and direct their whole lives in accordance with the demands of truth."262

2468 Truth as uprightness in human action and speech is called truthfulness, sincerity, or candor. Truth or truthfulness is the virtue which consists in showing oneself true in deeds and truthful in words, and in guarding against duplicity, dissimulation, and hypocrisy.

2469 "Men could not live with one another if there were not mutual confidence that they were being truthful to one another."263 The virtue of truth gives another his just due. Truthfulness keeps to the just mean between what ought to be expressed and what ought to be kept secret: it entails honesty and discretion. In justice, "as a matter of honor, one man owes it to another to manifest the truth."264

2470 The disciple of Christ consents to "live in the truth," that is, in the simplicity of a life in conformity with the Lord's example, abiding in his truth. "If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth."265

II. TO BEAR WITNESS TO THE TRUTH

2471 Before Pilate, Christ proclaims that he "has come into the world, to bear witness to the truth."266 The Christian is not to "be ashamed then of testifying to our Lord."267 In situations that require witness to the faith, the Christian must profess it without equivocation, after the example of St. Paul before his judges. We must keep "a clear conscience toward God and toward men."268

2472 The duty of Christians to take part in the life of the Church impels them to act as witnesses of the Gospel and of the obligations that flow from it. This witness is a transmission of the faith in words and deeds. Witness is an act of justice that establishes the truth or makes it known.269

    All Christians by the example of their lives and the witness of their word, wherever they live, have an obligation to manifest the new man which they have put on in Baptism and to reveal the power of the Holy Spirit by whom they were strengthened at Confirmation. 270

2473 Martyrdom is the supreme witness given to the truth of the faith: it means bearing witness even unto death. The martyr bears witness to Christ who died and rose, to whom he is united by charity. He bears witness to the truth of the faith and of Christian doctrine. He endures death through an act of fortitude. "Let me become the food of the beasts, through whom it will be given me to reach God."271

2474 The Church has painstakingly collected the records of those who persevered to the end in witnessing to their faith. These are the acts of the Martyrs. They form the archives of truth written in letters of blood:

    Neither the pleasures of the world nor the kingdoms of this age will be of any use to me. It is better for me to die [in order to unite myself] to Christ Jesus than to reign over the ends of the earth. I seek him who died for us; I desire him who rose for us. My birth is approaching. . .272

    I bless you for having judged me worthy from this day and this hour to be counted among your martyrs. . . . You have kept your promise, God of faithfulness and truth. For this reason and for everything, I praise you, I bless you, I glorify you through the eternal and heavenly High Priest, Jesus Christ, your beloved Son. Through him, who is with you and the Holy Spirit, may glory be given to you, now and in the ages to come. Amen.273

III. OFFENSES AGAINST TRUTH

2475 Christ's disciples have "put on the new man, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness."274 By "putting away falsehood," they are to "put away all malice and all guile and insincerity and envy and all slander."275

2476 False witness and perjury. When it is made publicly, a statement contrary to the truth takes on a particular gravity. In court it becomes false witness.276 When it is under oath, it is perjury. Acts such as these contribute to condemnation of the innocent, exoneration of the guilty, or the increased punishment of the accused.277 They gravely compromise the exercise of justice and the fairness of judicial decisions.

2477 Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury.278 He becomes guilty:

- of rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;

- of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another's faults and failings to persons who did not know them;279

- of calumny who, by remarks contrary to the truth, harms the reputation of others and gives occasion for false judgments concerning them.

2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor's thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:

    Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another's statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.280

2479 Detraction and calumny destroy the reputation and honor of one's neighbor. Honor is the social witness given to human dignity, and everyone enjoys a natural right to the honor of his name and reputation and to respect. Thus, detraction and calumny offend against the virtues of justice and charity.

2480 Every word or attitude is forbidden which by flattery, adulation, or complaisance encourages and confirms another in malicious acts and perverse conduct. Adulation is a grave fault if it makes one an accomplice in another's vices or grave sins. Neither the desire to be of service nor friendship justifies duplicitous speech. Adulation is a venial sin when it only seeks to be agreeable, to avoid evil, to meet a need, or to obtain legitimate advantages.

2481 Boasting or bragging is an offense against truth. So is irony aimed at disparaging someone by maliciously caricaturing some aspect of his behavior.

2482 "A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving."281 The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: "You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."282

2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man's relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.

2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.

2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.

2486 Since it violates the virtue of truthfulness, a lie does real violence to another. It affects his ability to know, which is a condition of every judgment and decision. It contains the seed of discord and all consequent evils. Lying is destructive of society; it undermines trust among men and tears apart the fabric of social relationships.

2487 Every offense committed against justice and truth entails the duty of reparation, even if its author has been forgiven. When it is impossible publicly to make reparation for a wrong, it must be made secretly. If someone who has suffered harm cannot be directly compensated, he must be given moral satisfaction in the name of charity. This duty of reparation also concerns offenses against another's reputation. This reparation, moral and sometimes material, must be evaluated in terms of the extent of the damage inflicted. It obliges in conscience.

IV. RESPECT FOR THE TRUTH

2488 The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.

2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.283

2490 The secret of the sacrament of reconciliation is sacred, and cannot be violated under any pretext. "The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore, it is a crime for a confessor in any way to betray a penitent by word or in any other manner or for any reason."284

2491 Professional secrets - for example, those of political office holders, soldiers, physicians, and lawyers - or confidential information given under the seal of secrecy must be kept, save in exceptional cases where keeping the secret is bound to cause very grave harm to the one who confided it, to the one who received it or to a third party, and where the very grave harm can be avoided only by divulging the truth. Even if not confided under the seal of secrecy, private information prejudicial to another is not to be divulged without a grave and proportionate reason.

2492 Everyone should observe an appropriate reserve concerning persons' private lives. Those in charge of communications should maintain a fair balance between the requirements of the common good and respect for individual rights. Interference by the media in the private lives of persons engaged in political or public activity is to be condemned to the extent that it infringes upon their privacy and freedom.

V. THE USE OF THE SOCIAL COMMUNICATIONS MEDIA

2493 Within modern society the communications media play a major role in information, cultural promotion, and formation. This role is increasing, as a result of technological progress, the extent and diversity of the news transmitted, and the influence exercised on public opinion.

2494 The information provided by the media is at the service of the common good.285 Society has a right to information based on truth, freedom, justice, and solidarity:

    The proper exercise of this right demands that the content of the communication be true and - within the limits set by justice and charity - complete. Further, it should be communicated honestly and properly. This means that in the gathering and in the publication of news, the moral law and the legitimate rights and dignity of man should be upheld.286

2495 "It is necessary that all members of society meet the demands of justice and charity in this domain. They should help, through the means of social communication, in the formation and diffusion of sound public opinion."287 Solidarity is a consequence of genuine and right communication and the free circulation of ideas that further knowledge and respect for others.

2496 The means of social communication (especially the mass media) can give rise to a certain passivity among users, making them less than vigilant consumers of what is said or shown. Users should practice moderation and discipline in their approach to the mass media. They will want to form enlightened and correct consciences the more easily to resist unwholesome influences.

2497 By the very nature of their profession, journalists have an obligation to serve the truth and not offend against charity in disseminating information. They should strive to respect, with equal care, the nature of the facts and the limits of critical judgment concerning individuals. They should not stoop to defamation.

2498 "Civil authorities have particular responsibilities in this field because of the common good. . . . It is for the civil authority . . . to defend and safeguard a true and just freedom of information."288 By promulgating laws and overseeing their application, public authorities should ensure that "public morality and social progress are not gravely endangered" through misuse of the media.289 Civil authorities should punish any violation of the rights of individuals to their reputation and privacy. They should give timely and reliable reports concerning the general good or respond to the well-founded concerns of the people. Nothing can justify recourse to disinformation for manipulating public opinion through the media. Interventions by public authority should avoid injuring the freedom of individuals or groups.

2499 Moral judgment must condemn the plague of totalitarian states which systematically falsify the truth, exercise political control of opinion through the media, manipulate defendants and witnesses at public trials, and imagine that they secure their tyranny by strangling and repressing everything they consider "thought crimes."

VI. TRUTH, BEAUTY, AND SACRED ART

2500 The practice of goodness is accompanied by spontaneous spiritual joy and moral beauty. Likewise, truth carries with it the joy and splendor of spiritual beauty. Truth is beautiful in itself. Truth in words, the rational expression of the knowledge of created and uncreated reality, is necessary to man, who is endowed with intellect. But truth can also find other complementary forms of human expression, above all when it is a matter of evoking what is beyond words: the depths of the human heart, the exaltations of the soul, the mystery of God. Even before revealing himself to man in words of truth, God reveals himself to him through the universal language of creation, the work of his Word, of his wisdom: the order and harmony of the cosmos-which both the child and the scientist discover-"from the greatness and beauty of created things comes a corresponding perception of their Creator," "for the author of beauty created them."290

    [Wisdom] is a breath of the power of God, and a pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty; therefore nothing defiled gains entrance into her. For she is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of his goodness.291 For [wisdom] is more beautiful than the sun, and excels every constellation of the stars. Compared with the light she is found to be superior, for it is succeeded by the night, but against wisdom evil does not prevail.292 I became enamored of her beauty.293

2501 Created "in the image of God,"294 man also expresses the truth of his relationship with God the Creator by the beauty of his artistic works. Indeed, art is a distinctively human form of expression; beyond the search for the necessities of life which is common to all living creatures, art is a freely given superabundance of the human being's inner riches. Arising from talent given by the Creator and from man's own effort, art is a form of practical wisdom, uniting knowledge and skill,295 to give form to the truth of reality in a language accessible to sight or hearing. To the extent that it is inspired by truth and love of beings, art bears a certain likeness to God's activity in what he has created. Like any other human activity, art is not an absolute end in itself, but is ordered to and ennobled by the ultimate end of man.296

2502 Sacred art is true and beautiful when its form corresponds to its particular vocation: evoking and glorifying, in faith and adoration, the transcendent mystery of God - the surpassing invisible beauty of truth and love visible in Christ, who "reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature," in whom "the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily."297 This spiritual beauty of God is reflected in the most holy Virgin Mother of God, the angels, and saints. Genuine sacred art draws man to adoration, to prayer, and to the love of God, Creator and Savior, the Holy One and Sanctifier.

2503 For this reason bishops, personally or through delegates, should see to the promotion of sacred art, old and new, in all its forms and, with the same religious care, remove from the liturgy and from places of worship everything which is not in conformity with the truth of faith and the authentic beauty of sacred art.298

IN BRIEF

2504 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" (Ex 20:16). Christ's disciples have "put on the new man, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24).

2505 Truth or truthfulness is the virtue which consists in showing oneself true in deeds and truthful in words, and guarding against duplicity, dissimulation, and hypocrisy.

2506 The Christian is not to "be ashamed of testifying to our Lord" (2 Tim 1:8) in deed and word. Martyrdom is the supreme witness given to the truth of the faith.

2507 Respect for the reputation and honor of persons forbids all detraction and calumny in word or attitude.

2508 Lying consists in saying what is false with the intention of deceiving one's neighbor.

2509 An offense committed against the truth requires reparation.

2510 The golden rule helps one discern, in concrete situations, whether or not it would be appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.

2511 "The sacramental seal is inviolable" (CIC, can. 983 § 1). Professional secrets must be kept. Confidences prejudicial to another are not to be divulged.

2512 Society has a right to information based on truth, freedom, and justice. One should practice moderation and discipline in the use of the social communications media.

2513 The fine arts, but above all sacred art, "of their nature are directed toward expressing in some way the infinite beauty of God in works made by human hands. Their dedication to the increase of God's praise and of his glory is more complete, the more exclusively they are devoted to turning men's minds devoutly toward God" (SC 122).

Source: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/arch...sm/p3s2c2a8.htm
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give me time to read and thx thumbup.gif
khool
post Oct 22 2015, 03:14 PM

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QUOTE(de1929 @ Oct 22 2015, 03:13 PM)
give me time to read and thx  thumbup.gif
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No hurry, in God's own time. God bless!

de1929
post Oct 22 2015, 03:40 PM

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QUOTE(khool @ Oct 22 2015, 03:14 PM)
No hurry, in God's own time. God bless!
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What's the penalty if catholic break the rules, which written in post #721 ? i mean from parish / vatican sentence something ?
khool
post Oct 22 2015, 03:56 PM

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- DELETED -

Give me a moment, will compose something properly and get back to you later. Multi-tasking at the moment. Apologies!!! blush.gif blush.gif blush.gif

This post has been edited by khool: Oct 22 2015, 04:01 PM
spacelion
post Oct 22 2015, 04:07 PM

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Eh my office nearby got this church Thomas St More where a statue grew in size. Is it real or not?
de1929
post Oct 22 2015, 04:16 PM

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QUOTE(khool @ Oct 22 2015, 03:56 PM)
- DELETED -

Give me a moment, will compose something properly and get back to you later. Multi-tasking at the moment. Apologies!!!  blush.gif  blush.gif  blush.gif
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i don't think you need to compose something.

if you summarize, you will remove valuable details,
if you give a lot of detail, it will consume my time.

eitherway is not beneficial for me, because i need to know more before investing my time, which, i will appreciate detail. so don't bother composing things properly.

the issues are: i am perplexed with:
1. so many rules. I don't think i can uphold 1 rule without breaking another rule.
2. if i think right, but parish think wrong... pretty much i have to obey the parish right ? so why i need to study ? just outsource to parish and let them decide to me, whilst i make myself something useful. like helping people ? Parish represent higher authorithies. I assumed the highest is Vatican so mean if i don't agree with parish i can appeal to higher level, and maximum is vatican.
TSyeeck
post Oct 22 2015, 04:59 PM

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QUOTE(de1929 @ Oct 22 2015, 03:12 PM)
what does catholic thinks.... that's what the converstaion for, and most importantly, i want to know which one is personal catholic opinion, and the one with nihil obstat vatican authorithy, especially on thou shall not bear false witness...

i was under impression catholic live with 1 standard, whcih is nihil obstat vatican standard.
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A lie is a sin. And it's the universal standard.
de1929
post Oct 22 2015, 05:08 PM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Oct 22 2015, 04:59 PM)
A lie is a sin. And it's the universal standard.
*
is there any way for a catholic to life as a liar, or they are condemned ?
SUSifourtos
post Oct 22 2015, 05:33 PM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Mar 4 2015, 10:22 PM)
The so-called extra books (not chapters) are called the Deuterocanonical books that are used not only in the Catholic Church but also in the Eastern Churches. Too bad most Protestants reject it, because some of it contains or talks about things not believed by Protestants, such as praying for the repose of the dead and Purgatory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterocanonical_books

We pray to the saints and Mary, because we believe they are spiritually alive and enjoying the beatific vision of God in Heaven, and can intercede for us to God, just like any other humans who prays for us, but even better because the saints are special friends of God Himself. Just to be certain, we do not worship Mary or the saints in the same manner as we worship God, for even worship have varying degrees expressed in the following Greek terms:

Latria - the supreme worship due only to God.
Dulia - veneration due to the other saints
Hyperdulia - veneration due to the Blessed Virgin Mary (thus the addition of hyper because Mary is the most perfect model of all the saints)

Hope this helps.
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First Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and the saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father: "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25). With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Whom would God listen to more closely than His Son? Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?

[n]Extra Book included in Bible.[/b]
Roman Catholic need it to educate follower with "New" idea, they have to put it into the bible.

The Biggest FAILURE of a Jesus Follower
SMALL FAITH

Edit:
Hyperdulia - veneration due to the Blessed Virgin Mary (thus the addition of hyper because Mary is the most perfect model of all the saints)

Mary = Most Perfect Model of all the Saints??

1st. Jesus is the only Perfect Model.
2nd. Any human who closer to this Model would be PAUL
From Perspective of Theological Understanding, Missionary Achievement, Church Involvement.

Mary is just a blessed PERSON. Nothing more.
Catholic must Admit, most of them treated Mary as "demigod"

This post has been edited by ifourtos: Oct 22 2015, 05:46 PM
TSyeeck
post Oct 22 2015, 05:41 PM

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QUOTE(ifourtos @ Oct 22 2015, 05:33 PM)
First Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and the saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father: "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25). With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Whom would God listen to more closely than His Son? Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?

[n]Extra Book included in Bible.[/b]
Roman Catholic need it to educate follower with "New" idea, they have to put it into the bible.

The Biggest FAILED of a Jesus Follower
SMALL FAITH
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Jesus is the ONLY mediator with the Father, but you seem to forget that Jesus is also God Himself. Mary and the saints can most certainly intercede for us to Jesus. Your blanket statement is like saying I cannot ask others for prayers on my behalf and I have no choice but to pray for that intention myself. That's a rather un-Christian and uncharitable concept.

The deuterocanonical books aren't new. They existed even before the New Testament began.

This post has been edited by yeeck: Oct 22 2015, 05:48 PM
SUSifourtos
post Oct 22 2015, 05:52 PM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Oct 22 2015, 05:41 PM)
Jesus is the ONLY mediator with the Father, but you seem to forget that Jesus is also God Himself. Mary and the saints can most certainly intercede for us to Jesus. Your blanket statement is like saying I cannot ask others for prayers on my behalf and I have no choice but to pray for that intention myself. That's a rather un-Christian concept.

The deuterocanonical books aren't new. They existed even before the New Testament began.
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This is how Catholic goes into wrong path.

While :
"Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25)

If Jesus told you HE can do it. ( meditate, intercede with GOD )

BUT You Replied :

Ok Lord Jesus. But i will also ask other to do it together

A Disgrace.

The point is NOT "Mary and the saints can most certainly intercede for us to God."
The Point is "When Jesus can do it for You", Why ask other?

God Is holy.
Trust and only Trust to God.
Worship and only Worship to God.
Have Faith to God Himself Alone.

Asian Religion usually practice this : Pray to many God is Better than Pray to 1 God

This post has been edited by ifourtos: Oct 22 2015, 05:54 PM
SUSifourtos
post Oct 22 2015, 05:59 PM

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How i become a Christian?

Before Convert
I pray to Many God.

After Convert
Pray, worship, have faith to The Only God. Jesus

There is a temple in your heart.
Which is fit for God.
And only God himself stay there.

We shouldn't practice honouring the deceased church leader by given them superior spiritual status. So end up many people treat them as DEMIGOD..
unknown warrior
post Oct 22 2015, 06:20 PM

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QUOTE(ifourtos @ Oct 22 2015, 05:33 PM)
First Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and the saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father: "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25). With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Whom would God listen to more closely than His Son? Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?

[n]Extra Book included in Bible.[/b]
Roman Catholic need it to educate follower with "New" idea, they have to put it into the bible.

The Biggest FAILURE of a Jesus Follower
SMALL FAITH

Edit:
Hyperdulia - veneration due to the Blessed Virgin Mary (thus the addition of hyper because Mary is the most perfect model of all the saints)

Mary = Most Perfect Model of all the Saints??

1st. Jesus is the only Perfect Model.
2nd. Any human who closer to this Model would be PAUL
From Perspective of Theological Understanding, Missionary Achievement, Church Involvement.

Mary is just a blessed PERSON. Nothing more.
Catholic must Admit, most of them treated Mary as "demigod"
*
QUOTE(ifourtos @ Oct 22 2015, 05:52 PM)
This is how Catholic goes into wrong path.

While :
"Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25)

If Jesus told you HE can do it. ( meditate, intercede with GOD )

BUT You Replied :

Ok Lord Jesus. But i will also ask other to do it together

A Disgrace.

The point is NOT "Mary and the saints can most certainly intercede for us to God."
The Point is "When Jesus can do it for You", Why ask other?

God Is holy.
Trust and only Trust to God.
Worship and only Worship to God.
Have Faith to God Himself Alone.

Asian Religion usually practice this : Pray to many God is Better than Pray to 1 God
*
QUOTE(ifourtos @ Oct 22 2015, 05:59 PM)
How i become a Christian?

Before Convert
I pray to Many God.

After Convert
Pray, worship, have faith to The Only God. Jesus

There is a temple in your heart.
Which is fit for God.
And only God himself stay there.

We shouldn't practice honouring the deceased church leader by given them superior spiritual status. So end up many people treat them as DEMIGOD..
*
As much as I agree with what you say here but bulldozing like this, here in the Catholic thread is not right either. You'll only cause resentment.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Oct 22 2015, 06:22 PM
SUSifourtos
post Oct 22 2015, 07:14 PM

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Apologize if i being to harsh.
DRBS
post Oct 22 2015, 07:58 PM

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QUOTE(ifourtos @ Oct 22 2015, 05:52 PM)
This is how Catholic goes into wrong path.

While :
"Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25)

If Jesus told you HE can do it. ( meditate, intercede with GOD )

BUT You Replied :

Ok Lord Jesus. But i will also ask other to do it together

A Disgrace.

The point is NOT "Mary and the saints can most certainly intercede for us to God."
The Point is "When Jesus can do it for You", Why ask other?

God Is holy.
Trust and only Trust to God.
Worship and only Worship to God.
Have Faith to God Himself Alone.

Asian Religion usually practice this : Pray to many God is Better than Pray to 1 God
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Umm......but the query still remains.
Is it right for us to pray for others and to ask others to pray for us?
What about the times when we are unable to pray for ourselves - sick, distracted, unconscious, in danger, depressed, asleep, at the hour of our death?
TSyeeck
post Oct 23 2015, 12:27 AM

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QUOTE(ifourtos @ Oct 22 2015, 05:52 PM)
This is how Catholic goes into wrong path.

While :
"Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25)

If Jesus told you HE can do it. ( meditate, intercede with GOD )

BUT You Replied :

Ok Lord Jesus. But i will also ask other to do it together

A Disgrace.

The point is NOT "Mary and the saints can most certainly intercede for us to God."
The Point is "When Jesus can do it for You", Why ask other?

God Is holy.
Trust and only Trust to God.
Worship and only Worship to God.
Have Faith to God Himself Alone.

Asian Religion usually practice this : Pray to many God is Better than Pray to 1 God
*
Unfortunately, you are taking verses out of context. Example:

Trust and only Trust to God. => Can I say....don't trust your parents then? If people ask you to pray for them, do you reply them that I can't because only Jesus can intercede for you, so go and fly kite and pray yourself? Think carefully before you pick and choose Scripture quotations, and taking things out of context.

Mary is even mentioned in the wedding of Cana to be the first to intervene to Jesus "they have no wine", and caused Jesus to perform His first public miracle even though He said "His hour is not yet come". Catholics are not just encouraged to ask for the saints' intercessions but to also imitate and model the saints' lives of faith, hope, and charity.

To seek the help of the friends of God to pray for us is a disgrace? Think again.

This post has been edited by yeeck: Oct 23 2015, 12:35 AM
TSyeeck
post Oct 23 2015, 12:29 AM

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One Mediator Between God and Men
Tim Staples


A surface reading of I Timothy 2:5 would seem to eliminate the idea of Christians “mediating” graces to one another: “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.” Protestants will argue, “If Jesus is our one mediator, then Christ alone mediates grace. In saying anyone else can, Catholics are usurping and thereby denying Christ’s singular role as mediator. That’s blasphemy!”

THE CATHOLIC RESPONSE:

Much to the surprise of many Protestants I have spoken to over the years, the Catholic Church actually acknowledges Christ to be our one and absolutely unique mediator who alone can reconcile us to the Father in a strict sense. In his classic, The Catholic Catechism, Fr. John Hardon explains:

… the Incarnation corresponds to mediation in the order of being, and the Redemption (remission of sin and conferral of grace) is mediation morally.

This kind of mediation is incommunicable. No one but the Savior unites in himself the divinity, which demands reconciliation, and the humanity, which needs to be reconciled.

Protestants generally agree with us on this point. However, Fr. Hardon goes on to say:

Nevertheless, lesser and subordinate mediators are not excluded. The question is what purpose they serve and in what sense do they mediate. They can help the cause of mediation in the only way that human beings (or creatures) can contribute to the work of salvation, namely, by their willing response to grace; either better disposing themselves or others for divine grace, or interceding with God to give his grace, or freely cooperating with grace when conferred.

The “lesser and subordinate mediators” is where the trouble starts. And yet, the context of I Timothy 2:5 demonstrates Fr. Hardon’s point. In the first two verses, St. Paul commands “supplications, prayers and intercessions to be made for all men...” Intercession is a synonym for mediation. Hebrews 7:24-25 refers to Jesus acting as our one mediator at the right hand of the Father and refers to him as intercessor:

But [Christ] holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. Consequently, he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

Christ is our one mediator/intercessor, yet, St. Paul commands all Christians to be intercessors/mediators. Then notice the first word in verse five: “For there is one God and one mediator…” And then in verse seven he says, “For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle.” What is an apostle if not a mediator? The very definition of apostle, according to Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, is “a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders.” That’s an essential part of what a mediator is. In short, St. Paul says we are all called to be mediators because Christ is the one mediator and for this reason he was called to be a mediator of God’s love and grace to the world!

Is this a contradiction? Not at all! The fact that Jesus is our one mediator does not preclude him from communicating this power by way of participation. The Bible also declares: “But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have one teacher, (Gr. – didaskolos) and you are all brethren.” This text cannot be any clearer, yet James 3:1 and Ephesians 4:11 tell us we have many teachers (Gr. – didaskoloi) in the Church. The key is to understand that the many teachers and mediators in the body of Christ do not take away from Christ as the one teacher and mediator because they are, in a sense, Christ on this earth and they serve to establish his offices of teacher and mediator in him. As members of the body of Christ graced with a specific task by Christ they can say with St. Paul in Galatians 2:20, “It is not I, but Christ who [teaches] in me…”

And remember, we are not talking about necessity here. The Church is not claiming Christ couldn’t get the job done so he needed help. Of course not! He could do it all—and all by himself—if he wanted to. He could come down here right now and write this blog post much more effectively than I ever could. But he chooses not to do everything himself, strictly speaking. He delights in using his body to communicate his life and love to the world.

THE BODY BEAUTIFUL

Perhaps the most important image for the People of God in Scripture for understanding our topic, whether we are talking about the “mediation of all grace” with reference to the Mother of God, or the mediation of graces through the prayers and sufferings of other members of the Church, is given to us in I Corinthian 12, when St. Paul describes the Church as a body. CCC 753:

In Scripture, we find a host of interrelated images and figures through which Revelation speaks of the inexhaustible mystery of the Church. The images taken from the Old Testament are variations of a profound them: the People of God. In the New Testament, all these images find a new center because Christ has become the head of this people, which henceforth is his Body. Around this center are grouped images taken from the life of the shepherd or from cultivation of the land, from the art of building or from family life and marriage.

The Old Testament has beautiful images for the People of God. They are shown to be God’s bride (cf. Jer. 3:1-14); They are children of a God who is revealed to be their “father” (cf. Mal. 1:6), and more. But with the advent of Christ these analogies were brought to a whole new level unthinkable to the Old Testament mindset (cf. CCC 239-240).

God was revealed to be “like” a father in the Old Testament. In the New, he is revealed to be Father within the eternal relations of the godhead. Through our mystical union with Christ through baptism, we become sons and daughters of God whereby we can truly call God “Abba”—father (cf. Gal. 4:4-7). We become brothers and sisters of Christ and true sons of Mary (cf. Romans 8:14-17; John 19:27—Rev. 12:17). The concept of “bride” reaches new heights when we speak of the Church as the “bride” of Christ (cf. Eph. 5:24-32). But even more radically, “we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another” (Romans 12:5), whereby we are caught up into the very inner life of God as members of Christ’s body by grace (cf. Eph. 2:5-6), and by virtue of that fact we have been made to be “partakers of the divine nature” as II Peter 1:4 says.

It is this image of “the Body of Christ” that aids us in understanding how one member of the body can aid another in the communication of the divine life to one another without diminishing the role of "the head." For example, if I pick up a pen here on my desk would we say “the head,” or “I,” would have had nothing to do with it? “Oh no, your hand did that, Tim, not you!”

So it is with Christ and his Body. Eph. 1:22-23 goes so far as to say the Church is, “The fullness of him who fills all in all.” Thus, the Church is Christ in this world. This does not take away from Christ's unique mediation; it establishes that unique mediation. Different members of the Church mediate various graces in accordance with their respective gifts while the whole body functions to bring Christ to the world. Romans 12:4-6 says:

For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us.

And this radical union with Christ and with the other members of the Body of Christ does not cease at death. Romans 8:35-38 tells us, among other things, “neither death nor life… shall be able to separate us from the love of Christ.” Thus, those alive on earth can still benefit from—they are still connected to—the other members of the Body of Christ in heaven.

Is Christ our one, true mediator? Absolutely! And it is this same Christ who has chosen to use his Body to mediate God’s grace to the world in and through him.

This post has been edited by yeeck: Oct 23 2015, 12:30 AM
TSyeeck
post Oct 23 2015, 12:32 AM

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Intercession
To go or come between two parties to plead before one of them on behalf of the other

Intercession (MEDIATION).—To intercede is to go or come between two parties, to plead before one of them on behalf of the other. In the New Testament it is used as the equivalent of entugchaneln (Vulg. interpellare, in Heb., vii, 25). "Mediation" means a standing in the midst between two (contending) parties, for the purpose of bringing them together (cf. mediator, mesites, I Tim., ii, 5). In ecclesiastical usage both words are taken in the sense of the intervention primarily of Christ, and secondarily of the Blessed Virgin and the angels and saints, on behalf of men. It would be better, however, to restrict the word mediation to the action of Christ, and intercession to the action of the Blessed Virgin, the angels, and the saints. In this article we shall briefly deal with: I. the Mediation of Christ; and at more length with, II. the intercession of the saints.

I. In considering the Mediation of Christ we must distinguish between His position and His office. As God-man He stands in the midst between God and man, partaking of the natures of both, and therefore, by that very fact, fitted to act as Mediator between them. He is, indeed, the Mediator in the absolute sense of the word, in a way that no one else can possibly be. "For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (I Tim., ii, 5). He is united to both: "The head of every man is Christ... the head of Christ is God" (I Cor., xi, 3). His office of Mediator belongs to Him as man, His human nature is the principium quo, but the value of His action is derived from the fact that it is a Divine Person Who acts. The main object of His mediation is to restore the friendship between God and man. This is attained first by the meriting of grace and remission of sin, by means of the worship and satisfaction offered to God by and through Christ. But, besides bringing man nigh unto God, Christ brings God nigh unto man, by revealing to man Divine truths and commands—He is the Apostle sent by God to us and the High-Priest leading us on to God (Heb., iii, 1). Even in the physical order the mere fact of Christ's existence is in itself a mediation between God and man. By uniting our humanity to His Divinity He united us to God and God to us. As St. Athanasius says, "Christ became man that men might become gods" ("De Incarn.", n. 54; cf. St. Augustine, "Serm. De Nativitate Dom.", St. Thomas, III, Q. i, a. 2). And for this Christ prayed: "That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee... I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one" (John, xvii, 21-23). The subject of Christ's mediation belongs properly to the articles Doctrine of the Atonement; Jesus Christ; Redemption (q.v.). See also St. Thomas, III, Q. xxvi; and the treatises on the Incarnation.

II. We shall here speak not only of intercession, but also of the invocation of the saints. The one indeed implies the other; we should not call upon the saints for aid unless they could help us. The foundation of both lies in the doctrine of the Communion of Saints (q.v.). In the article on this subject it has been shown that the faithful in heaven, on earth, and in purgatory are one mystical body, with Christ for their head. All that is of interest to one part is of interest to the rest, and each helps the rest: we on earth by honoring and invoking the saints and praying for the souls in purgatory, and the saints in heaven by interceding for us. The Catholic doctrine of intercession and invocation is set forth by the Council of Trent, which teaches that "the saints who reign together with Christ offer up their own prayers to God for men. It is good and useful suppliantly to invoke them, and to have recourse to their prayers, aid, and help for obtaining benefits from God, through His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, Who alone is our Redeemer and Savior. Those persons think impiously who deny that the Saints, who enjoy eternal happiness in heaven, are to be invoked; or who assert either that they do not pray for men, or that the invocation of them to pray for each of us is idolatry, or that it is repugnant to the word of God, and is opposed to the honor of the one Mediator of God and men, Jesus Christ" (Sess. XXV). This had already been explained by St. Thomas: "Prayer is offered to a person in two ways: one as though to be granted by himself, another as to be obtained through him. In the first way we pray to God alone, because all our prayers ought to be directed to obtaining grace and glory which God alone gives, according to those words of the psalm (lxxxiii, 12): `The Lord will give grace and glory.' But in the second way we pray to the holy angels and to men, not that God may learn our petition through them, but that by their prayers and merits our prayers may be efficacious. Wherefore it is said in the Apocalypse (viii, 4): `And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel'" (Summ. Theol., II-II, Q. lxxxiii, a. 4). The reasonableness of the Catholic teaching and practice cannot be better stated than in St. Jerome's words: "If the Apostles and Martyrs, while still in the body, can pray for others, at a time when they must still be anxious for themselves, how much more after their crowns, victories, and triumphs are won! One man, Moses obtains from God pardon for six hundred thousand men in arms; and Stephen, the imitator of the Lord, and the first martyr in Christ, begs forgiveness for his persecutors; and shall their power be less after having begun to be with Christ? The Apostle Paul declares that two hundred three score and sixteen souls, sailing with him, were freely given him; and, after he is dissolved and has begun to be with Christ, shall he close his lips, and not be able to utter a word in behalf of those who throughout the whole world believed at his preaching of the Gospel? And shall the living dog Vigilantius be better than that dead lion?" ("Contra Vigilant.", n. 6, in P.L., XXIII, 344).

The chief objections raised against the intercession and invocation of the saints are that these doctrines are opposed to the faith and trust which we should have in God alone; that they are a denial of the all-sufficient merits of Christ; and that they cannot be proved from Scripture and the Fathers. Thus Article xxii of the Anglican Church says: "The Romish doctrine concerning the Invocation of Saints is a fond thing vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of. God."

In the article Adoration (q.v.) it has been clearly shown that the honor paid to angels and saints is entirely different from the supreme honor due to God alone, and is indeed paid to them only as His servants and friends. "By honoring the Saints who have slept in the Lord, by invoking their intercession and venerating their relics and ashes, so far is the glory of God from being diminished that it is very much increased, in proportion as the hope of men is thus more excited and confirmed, and they are encouraged to the imitation of the Saints" (Cat. of the Council of Trent, pt. III, c. ii, q. 11). We can, of course, address our prayers directly to God, and He can hear us without the intervention of any creature. But this does not prevent us from asking the help of our fellow-creatures who may be more pleasing to Him than we are. It is not because our faith and trust in Him are weak, nor because His goodness and mercy to us are less; rather is it because we are encouraged by His precepts to approach Him at times through His servants, as we shall presently see. As pointed out by St. Thomas, we invoke the angels and saints in quite different language from that addressed to God. We ask Him to have mercy upon us and Himself to grant us whatever we require; whereas we ask the saints to pray for us, i.e. to join their petitions with ours. However, we should here bear in mind Bellarmine's remarks: "When we say that nothing should be asked of the saints but their prayer for us, the question is not about the words, but the sense of the words. For as far as the words go, it is lawful to say: `St. Peter, pity me, save me, open for me the gate of heaven'; also, `Give me health of body, patience, fortitude', etc., provided that we mean `save and pity me by praying for me'; `grant me this or that by thy prayers and merits.' For so speaks Gregory of Nazianzus (Orat. xviii—according to others, xxiv—"De S. Cypriano" in P.G., XXXV, 1193; "Orat. de S. Athan.: In Laud. S. Athanas.", Orat. xxi, in P.G., XXXV, 1128); in "De Sanct. Beatif.", I, 17. The supreme act of impetration, sacrifice, is never offered to any creature. "Although the Church has been accustomed at times to celebrate certain Masses in honor and memory of the Saints, it does not follow that she teaches that sacrifice is offered unto them, but unto God alone, who crowned them; whence neither is the priest wont to say I offer sacrifice to thee, Peter, or Paul', but, giving thanks to God for their victories, he implores their patronage, that they may vouchsafe to intercede for us in heaven, whose memory we celebrate upon earth" (Council of Trent, Sess. XXII, c. iii). The Collyridians, or Philomarianites, offered little cakes in sacrifice to the Mother of God; but the practice was condemned by St. Epiphanius (Hr., lxxix, in P.G., XLI, 740); Leontius Byzant., "Contra Nest. et Eutych.", III, 6, in P.G., LXXXVI, 1364; and St. John of Damascus (Haer., lxxix, in P.G., XCIV, 728).

The doctrine of one Mediator, Christ, in no way excludes the invocation and intercession of saints. All merit indeed comes through Him; but this does not make it unlawful to ask our fellow creatures, whether here on earth or already in heaven, to help us by their prayers. The same Apostle who insists so strongly on the sole mediatorship of Christ, earnestly begs the prayers of his brethren: "I beseech you, therefore, brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the charity of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for me to God" (Rom., xv, 30); and he himself prays for them: "I give thanks to my God in every remembrance of you, always in all my prayers making supplication for you all" (Phil., i, 3, 4). If the prayers of the brethren on earth do not derogate from the glory and dignity of the Mediator, Christ, neither do the prayers of the saints in heaven.

As regards the proof from Holy Scripture and the Fathers, we can show that the principle and the practice of invoking the aid of our fellow creatures are clearly laid down in both. That the angels have an interest in the welfare of men is clear from Christ's words: "There shall be joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance" (Luke, xv, 10). In verse 7 He says simply: "There shall be joy in heaven". Cf. Matt., xviii, 10; Heb., i, 14. That the angels pray for men is plain from the vision of the Prophet Zacharias: "And the angel of the Lord answered, and said: O Lord of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem... and the Lord answered the angel... good words, comfortable words" (Zach., i, 12, 13). And the angel Raphael says: "When thou didst pray with tears. I offered thy prayer to the Lord" (Tob., xii, 12) The combination of the prayers both of angels and saints is seen in the vision of St. John: "And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel" (Apoc., viii, 3, 4). God Himself commanded Abimelech to have recourse to Abraham's intercession: "He shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live. And when Abraham prayed, God healed Abimelech" (Gen., xx, 7, 17). So, too, in the case of Job's friends He said: "Go to my servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust; and my servant Job shall pray for you: his face I will accept" (Job, xlii, 8). Intercession is indeed prominent in several passages in this same Book of Job: "Call now if there be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the saints" (v, 1); "If there shall be an angel speaking for him... He shall have mercy on him, and shall say: Deliver him, that he may not go down to corruption" (x, xxiii, 23). "They [the angels] appear as intercessors for men with God, bringing men's needs before Him, mediating in their behalf. This work is easily connected with their general office of laboring for the good of men" (Dillman on Job, p. 44). Moses is constantly spoken of as "mediator": "I was the mediator and stood between the Lord and you" (Deut., v, 5; cf. Gal., iii, 19, 20). It is true that in none of the passages of the Old Testament mention is made of prayer to the saints, i.e. holy men already departed from this life; but this is in keeping with the imperfect knowledge of the state of the dead, who were still in Limbo. The general principle of intercession and invocation of fellow-creatures is, however, stated in terms which admit of no denial; and this principle would in due course be applied to the saints as soon as their position was defined. In the New Testament the number of the saints already departed would be comparatively small in the early days.

The greatest of the Fathers in the succeeding centuries speak plainly both of the doctrine and practice of intercession and invocation. "But not the High-Priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels... as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep (ai te ton prokekoimemenon agion psuchai, Origen, "De Oratione", n. xi, in P.G., XI, 448). In many other places Origen uses similar expressions; indeed it may be said that there is hardly any treatise or homily in which he does not refer to the intercession of the angels and saints. St. Cyprian, writing to Pope Cornelius, says: "Let us be mutually mindful of each other, let us ever pray for each other, and if one of us shall, by the speediness of the Divine vouchsafement, depart hence first, let our love continue in the presence of the Lord, let not prayer for our brethren and sisters cease in the presence of the mercy of the Father" (Ep. lvii, in P.L., IV, 358). "To those who would fain stand, neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting" (St. Hilary, "In Ps. cxxiv", n. 5, 6, in P.L., X, 682). "We then commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, that God, by their prayers and intercessions, may receive our petitions" (St. Cyril of Jerus., "Cat. Myst.", v, n. 9) in P.G., XXXIII, 1166). "Remember me, ye heirs of God, ye brethren of Christ, supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day" (St. Ephraem Syrus, "De Timore Anim.", in fin.). "Ye victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior; ye who have boldness of speech towards the Lord Himself; ye saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us that so we may love him" (St. Ephraem, "Encom. in Mart."). "Do thou, [Ephraem] that art standing at the Divine altar, and art ministering with angels to the life-giving and most Holy Trinity, bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom" (St. Gregory of Nyssa, "De vita Ephraemi", in fin., P.G., XLVI, 850). "Mayest thou [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd [or shepherd with me] this sacred flock... gladdening us with a more perfect and clear illumination of the Holy Trinity, before Which thou standest" (St. Gregory of Naz., Orat. xvii—according to others, xxiv—"De S. Cypr.", P.G., XXXV, 1193). In like manner does Gregory pray to St. Athanasius (Orat. xxi, "In laud. S. Athan.", P.G., XXXV, 1128). "O holy choir! O sacred band! O unbroken host of warriors! O common guardians of the human race! Ye gracious sharers of our cares! Ye cooperators in our prayer! Most powerful intercessors!" (St. Basil, "Horn. in XL Mart.", P.G., XXXI, 524). "May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ's benignant countenance" (St. Ambrose, "Hexaem.", V, xxv, n. 90, in P.L., XIV, 242). St. Jerome has been quoted above. St. John Chrysostom frequently speaks of invocation and intercession in his homilies on the saints, e.g. "When thou perceivest that God is chastening thee, fly not to His enemies... but to His friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to Him, and who have great power" (parresian, "boldness of speech"—Orat. VIII, "Adv. Jud.", n. 6, in P.G., XLVIII, 937). "He that wears the purple, laying aside his pomp, stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God; and he that wears the diadem begs the Tent-maker and the Fisherman as patrons, even though they be dead" ("Horn. xxvi, in II Ep. ad Cor.", n. 5, in P.G., LXI, 581). "At the Lord's table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps" (St. Augustine, "In Joann.", tr. lxxxiv, in P.L., XXXIV, 1847).

Prayers to the saints occur in almost all the ancient liturgies. Thus in the Liturgy of St. Basil: "By the command of Thine only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of Thy saints... by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of Thy holy name which is invoked upon us". Cf. the Liturgy of Jerusalem, the Liturgy of St. Chrysostom, the Liturgy of Nestorius, the Coptic Liturgy of St. Cyril, etc. That these commemorations are not later additions is manifest from the words of St. Cyril of Jerusalem: "We then commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, that God by their prayers and intercessions may receive our petitions" ("Cat. Myst.", v, in P.G., XXXIII, 1113). (See Renaudot, "Liturgiarum Orientalium Collectio", Paris, 1716.)

We readily admit that the doctrine of the intercession of the saints is a development from the teaching of Scripture and that the practice is open to abuse. But if the carefully worded and wholesome decrees of the Council of Trent be adhered to, there is nothing in the doctrine or practice which deserves the condemnation expressed in Article xxii of the Anglican religion. Indeed the High Church Anglicans contend that it is not the invocation of saints that is here rejected, but only the "Romish doctrine", i.e. the excesses prevailing at the time and afterwards condemned by the Council of Trent. "In principle there is no question herein between us and any other portion of the Catholic Church. Let not that most ancient custom, common to the Universal Church, as well Greek as Latin, of addressing Angels and Saints in the way we have said, be condemned as impious, or as vain and foolish" [Forbes, Bishop of Brechin (Anglican), "Of the Thirty-nine Articles", p. 422]. The reformed Churches, as a body, reject the invocation of the saints. Article xxi of the Augsburg Confession says: "Scripture does not teach us to invoke the Saints, or to ask for help from the Saints; for it puts before us Christ as the one mediator, propitiatory, high-priest, and intercessor." In the "Apology of the Augsburg Confession" (ad art. xxi, sects. 3, 4), it is admitted that the angels pray for us, and the saints, too, "for the Church in general"; but this does not imply that they 'are to be invoked. The Calvinists, however, reject both intercession and invocation as an imposture and delusion of Satan, since thereby the right manner of praying is prevented, and the saints know nothing of us, and have no concern as to what passes on earth ("Gall. Confess.", art. xxiv; "Remonst. Conf." c. xvi, sect. 3).

T. B. SCANNELL
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post Oct 23 2015, 12:52 AM

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post Oct 23 2015, 09:47 AM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Oct 23 2015, 12:27 AM)
Unfortunately, you are taking verses out of context. Example:

Trust and only Trust to God. => Can I say....don't trust your parents then? If people ask you to pray for them, do you reply them that I can't because only Jesus can intercede for you, so go and fly kite and pray yourself? Think carefully before you pick and choose Scripture quotations, and taking things out of context.

Mary is even mentioned in the wedding of Cana to be the first to intervene to Jesus "they have no wine", and caused Jesus to perform His first public miracle even though He said "His hour is not yet come". Catholics are not just encouraged to ask for the saints' intercessions but to also imitate and model the saints' lives of faith, hope, and charity.

To seek the help of the friends of God to pray for us is a disgrace? Think again.
*
You get me wrong, brother.

For example. You love all the women.
But there is some kind of love only you can give it to your wife.

QUOTE
You may argue that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for us. Let us examine that claim. (1) The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in heaven to pray for him. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth. (2) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination—activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). In the one instance when a "saint" is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel is not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for us. One has a strong biblical basis; the other has no biblical basis whatsoever.

God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in heaven has any greater access to God's throne than we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).



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