Did I say using the witch was OK? Did you not read the whole thing that I said asking the saints to intercede for us is different than using witches to know the future? Seriously? Talk about picking and choosing what one wants to see!

This post has been edited by yeeck: Apr 13 2016, 12:15 AM

The final chapter of John says nothing about tradition. Do note that just because there are many other things that Jesus did, it does not imply that those things are instructive or add more to doctrine.

How about this then
2 Timothy 14
4 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

If apostolic tradition or whatever you called was so important, why Paul never mention about it. Tell me then in Scripture where is it mentioned that tradition or apostolic tradition is important.

Acts 17
11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. 12 Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men.

No mention about tradition here.
What is your interpretation of this then.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

If you understood the verse above, you would have understood that scripture is entirely God breathe. If that is so, there is no need of another secondary material.

Since you make the claim that you are a former protestant, I am so surprised that you really do not know church history. Were you really interested in the truth in the first place.

You keep on talking about history, Yes. The catholic church has a history of atrocities. Atrocities that we Christians are false accused of being associated with.

Yes the truth has always been preserved. Even though Catholism was the main religion for many years, there has always been Christians throughout the ages who has followed the Word of God earnestly and rejected the Catholic Religion. There has always existed people who were willing not to denounce their religion even though they would probably die under the hands of the Catholic Church

The reformers were men of honor who were willing to die for their faith.

Yes, Satan probably blinded many people for this period of time. Throughout the bible, there are many cases whereby it seems that Satan has the upper hand but in the end, God always find a way to win.

The post that I posted above describes why you are a liar. But then you are probably doing your cover up right now.

This post has been edited by sylar111: Apr 13 2016, 01:13 AM

Yes, I did. But it seems that you are also condoning using the witch since God allowed it.

I apologize if that was not your intention but then I guess whether or not it is your intention, it is in accordance to your conscience.

And that is...? Your understanding of what I posted? If you cannot even read in totality, then there's no point to continue. It's like chicken and duck talk, Mr. Ong.

Let he/she who reads, read!

I Corinthians 13:2 2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

"We can work our way into Heaven": No!

Catholic teaching for 2,000 years:
we are saved by grace alone, through faith that works in love

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The Catholic Church and Her Bible condemn the idea that one can work his way to Heaven on his own merit or that God "owes" a person for doing the right things.

All our works get their merit only from Jesus' sacrifice on our behalf. We can do "works" 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year for the rest of our lives, but without Christ's grace, they are nothing. Works have no merit in themselves -- and faith without works is not enough. We are saved by grace alone -- a grace that we accept neither "by faith alone" nor "by works alone," but "by faith that works in charity" (Galatians 5:6).

Something I came across on the Internet demonstrates the obvious importance of works. Below is a (albeit rather smart-alecky) joke letter to a pastor who preaches "faith alone":

I am a former Catholic who was recently saved through the Grace of Jesus Christ. All my life I knew I was a homosexual. The Catholic Church told me that I had to refrain from what I was in order to be saved! I never knew that my good works meant nothing! To think, I would have spent my entire life struggling not to engage in homosexual activity, just to wind up in Hell! I now realize that Salvation is through the finished work of Christ ALONE, and not from good works. I am now living as an active homosexual in the freedom of Jesus Christ!

The pastor, almost completely misunderstanding Catholicism but who has an entire ministry devoted to "saving Catholics", responded in part by saying:

It is true that a person is not saved by his works and that salvation is completely of grace. However that does not mean that works have nothing to do with salvation.

Well, "pastor," that's what Catholics have been saying all along!

The bottom line: all salvation comes from the grace of Christ's Sacrifice and only from the grace of His Sacrifice. Salvation is a free gift -- a gift that is not "owed" to us, that God didn't have to offer us, and that we could never "earn" on our own -- that we accept by faith and works. Christ doesn't have to give us this gift of salvation; we don't "deserve" this gift, we can't "earn" it; but He, in His endless Love for us, offers it nonetheless. We have to believe this gift exists (have faith) and then open our hands to receive it (obey, inspired by the grace given to us).

An analogy: there is a train called "Grace" that is the one and only route to Heaven and which is fueled by Christ's Passion, Resurrection, and Ascension alone. Some Protestants seem to believe that all one has to do is believe the train exists and all will be well. They accuse Catholics of thinking that belief in the train is unecessary, that we can give out free soup in the train station and, thereby, bypass the train altogether. But what Catholics actually believe is that the train -- Grace -- is the only way to Heaven, that it is the only means by which we are saved, that we can't take another route and can do nothing about getting to Heaven without that train. But we also teach that we have to believe in the train's existence and board it through repentance and obedience to what Christ teaches. God is the Conductor of the train, completely Sovereign, and can go off the tracks if need be to pick up those who are truly and invincibly ignorant of the train's existence but who are of good will, obey the natural law, and whom He deigns to save. If, when, and how He might do such a thing is completely up to Him and not for us to bicker about. It is to us to do what He has taught us: to believe, repent, love God and neighbor, and preach the Gospel.

The fact that you have use my actual name in a public forum only serve to display the amount of integrity you have.

Anyway, I have reedited my previous reply but if you do not understand why I called you a liar, I guess you are hopeless.

This post has been edited by yeeck: Apr 13 2016, 02:11 AM

Alright, if you do not wish to be called by your name. Perhaps for a start you could inform us which Protestant denom you actually follow. Forget about all those meaningless 'non-denominational', 'bible-believing' labels, because every Protestant have their own interpretation.

While i don't fully agreed to some of the points raised by two of you, I would like to quote a passage from Book of James James 1:19-27 (NIV).

"My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, for man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires. Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard but doing it - he will be blessed in what he does. If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

No doubt Protestants come 1600 years later than "Catholic" or even "Orthodox", one has to ponder why there is Protestants in the first place. I believe wikipedia.org summarized it well here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism

All Protestant denominations reject the notion of papal supremacy over the Church universal and generally deny the Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation, but they disagree among themselves regarding the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.[8] The various denominations generally emphasize the priesthood of all believers, the doctrine of justification by faith alone (sola fide) rather than by or with good works, and a belief in the Bible alone (rather than with Catholic tradition) as the highest authority in matters of faith and morals (sola scriptura).[9] The "Five solae" summarize the reformers' basic differences in theological beliefs in opposition to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church of the day.[10]

Guys, just leave the Catholics alone.

We can give opinions, but if not accepted, it's alright.

Show Grace don't fight.

Yes, shioks, that's the general understanding about Protestantism that most people are aware of. However, there are just too many groups today with various teachings, you just can't be sure who is teaching what anymore.

Now, when you say even though Protestants came 1600 years later than Catholic or even Orthodox, and ponder why there are Protestants in the first place, my opinion is this. Luther started well attacking ABUSES regarding indulgences, simony, nepotism, corruption that any orthodox Catholic have no issues to agree with. Unfortunately, emotions got heated up, and more serious errors crept in due to the involvement of politics of the time. Zeal we must have, but bitter zeal, never.

In the Church's entire history, there have been many other errors which have risen earlier before the advent of Protestantism. Arianism (which denies the divinity of Christ) in the 3rd-4th century still lives with us today..in the form of that religion from Saudi Arabia that only considers Jesus as a mere human prophet, and the "Jehovah's Witnesses" who thinks Jesus is the same as the Archangel Michael. There are many others which you can read up on.

This post has been edited by yeeck: Apr 13 2016, 10:58 AM

It is with great sadness that we announce the passing of Rev Fr Antoine Henriot MEP, a priest of the Archdiocese of Kuala Lumpur, on 13 April 2016 at the age of 92. Eternal rest grant unto him, O Lord and let your perpetual light shine on him. May his soul rest in peace.



Fr Henriots body will be brought to Holy Family church tomorrow thurs after the 7 am mass at Little Sisters of the Poor (LSP) Cheras and will lie in state at our church until the funeral mass on the morning of Friday and burial at Holy Family cemetery.

Wake in LSP tonight. Kajang tomorrow and funeral in Kajang at 3 pm on Friday

URL Link: https://www.facebook.com/archkl/photos/a.22...?type=3&fref=nf

Forget debating with him. Look at all of the 20 points stated. Most of them just do not make sense. But then as I have mentioned earlier, he is never interested in the truth.

In fact up to now, he still is not able to answer the greatest beef that I am having with one of his claims. Just simply brush it off. That is the kind of attitude that he is displaying right now. And still pretending that I am being unreasonable.

This post has been edited by sylar111: Apr 13 2016, 02:20 PM

traditions better than truth....more than 2000 years of traditions

I think your confusion arises from the term prayer with worship. Our prayer to the saints are akin to asking them to intercede for us, simple as that. Which is why the earlier post quoted already pointed out the different levels of honour/worship. Any prayers answered ultimately comes from God, obviously, whether it is direct to Him or through the intercession of the saints.

I don't know why you quoted Acts 1:12-14. I've already said numerous time we don't deny that Mary is a creature, yet you obstinately refuse to see or accept that. Yet at the wedding of Cana, she was recorded as interceding to her Son, when His time was not yet come to perform His first public miracle.

Before the Bible was written (NT), all was handed down via Tradition. The authority of the Church also comes into place, such as as who defines the canon of the Bible. It is none other than the Church. Scripture in Christianity is unlike the belief of the Muslims which claimed that their scripture was brought by an angel direct to their prophet. Surely you guys know this, right?

This post has been edited by yeeck: Apr 13 2016, 02:58 PM

>> Oh wow...so this part is worthless to you. I learnt something new today about Protestant respect of the Bible.

Your lying spirit is at hand right now. And it is so obvious. I have never ever indicated that verse is not important. All I ever indicated is that the extra things that Jesus did but was not mentioned in scripture was not included was probably not instructive and doctrinal. The fact that you are accusing me of "ignoring" this verse tells me that you have the habit of "ignoring" many verses as well. I even stated the issue at hand which shows that I take every verse of the bible seriously. You did not even bother stating the exact part you are talking about indicating to me that scriptures are never important.

>> Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. (2 Thess 2:15). The verse you quoted above didn't say Scripture alone. Again....alone!

If you read the context(the whole chapter), 2 Thessalonians is speaking of the period of the Anti Christ. A period of deception. Paul is addressing the Thessalonica congregation to hold to the traditions whether by word or by epistles so as not to fall into deception like the rest . It's pretty clear that Paul was telling the church to remain true to the doctrines from the scripture and not to the traditions similar to the one practiced by the catholic church. It's pretty clear that traditions followed by the catholic church does not prevent one from falling into deception.

>> Shown above. Not mentioned in this part, doesn't mean it doesn't exist elsewhere.
Traditions as you speak is also rarely shown. And if it is shown, it does not refer to the traditions of the catholic church which you described.

>> The Word here refers to Jesus Himself, not a book! And if it's not for the Catholic Church preserving and her monks copying the scriptures [painstakingly by hand, you wouldn't even have scriptures today. Oh, and sorry to inform you that it is the Catholic Church which defined which books are part of Scripture and which aren't.
Shows your understanding. Why is "THE WORD" being used in the first place. "THE WORD" is being used because scripture has always been about Jesus Christ. Everything that has ever been written in scripture speaks of Jesus, even the old testament. So it does imply the Godly nature of scriptures as well. I am not saying that the book itself is Godly. But the message in the book.

Not really. There were a few canons of the new testament and the source of those canons may not come from the catholic church. There's also the Textus Receptus which is being used to translate the KJV which does not really originated from the catholic church.

>> It is not only the Catholics who have a history of atrocities. Those who don't live by the tenets of their faith are legion, be Catholic or non-Catholic. And your point is?
It's ok. Arguing this is a never ending story. But then, the catholic system has always been establish in a way that gives the pope political power. I dun think you can deny this. But then, this is not crucial.

>> Show me where were these people before the 16th century.
The baptist church has been around during this time.

>> Oh really? Which one? Luther? Lulz
If you brush up on your history which is pretty easy since we have the internet, you would have known that countless of people have died during the reformation period. It's not very difficult. For example the issue with bloody marry who killed thousands of protestants for not converting to catholism. It's laughable that you make the claims that you are seeking the truth when you do not even know something as basic as this.
2 Timothy 3:7
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

>> Be specific.
Throughout the scripture, there are many cases whereby Satan used rulers to kill many people to prevent God's purposes from being fulfilled.
In fact even right now, it seems that Satan is having the upper hand.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
But in this case, I am referring to Satan's influence through the Catholic church

This post has been edited by sylar111: Apr 13 2016, 04:11 PM

Why would my denomination matter.

Well, the fact that denomination is so important tells me that tradition matters to you more then the actual word of God.
The central theme of all denominations are the same.

So your interpretation of the bible is based on the Catholic exegesis and not through your own spiritual understanding. No wonder.

I guess you have no choice but to agree then with the current pope's view on homosexuality and evolution.

This post has been edited by sylar111: Apr 13 2016, 04:03 PM

Some people are ignorant....

They don't know that the 12 apostles don't have what we regard as the bible when they started the ministry.....

All they knew was that some jew died and did not stay dead. It is this experience that sustained them even to their painful deaths.

It is this same experience that they shared with those who have not known that jew that eventually defined the canon.

Note, I am not calling faith here......if you see someone who died but did not stay dead and come and chill with you for another 1.5 months after the supposed death, it's hardly call faith. It's real experience. Some real shit they saw in their lives....so much so that they were willing to die for it. Berani kerana benar.