Amen to that!

so how much ecumenism and dialog did u manage to have with your Mormon?

I said I've read about Mormonism and Joseph Smith. They were stunned. Then they mentioned the Book of Mormon being God's gift bla bla bla....and "if we read scripture the Holy Spirit will lead us into the truth", yeah....but definitely not to Mormonism. Anyway they stopped the conversation and just passed me their call card.

Calling card? Really? Talk about MLM ... wonder if the angel Moroni told them to do it that way ...

King Abdullah II of Jordan funds Holy Sepulchre restoration work
The Muslim sovereign has sent a donation to the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem as a contribution towards the costs. This is another of the Jordanian royal family’s expressions of support to Christians. It is also a political move that aims to underline Amman’s prerogatives over Jerusalem



11/04/2016
GIORGIO BERNARDELLI
ROME
“His Majesty King Abdullah II has issued a Royal Benefaction (makruma) to provide for the restoration of Jesus’ Tomb in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, at His Majesty’s personal expense.” The news was announced by Jordanian press agency Petra, which says that the Hashemite Court sent an official letter to the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem, Theophilos III. It will therefore be a Muslim sovereign and direct descendant of the Prophet Muhammad who will foot part of the bill for the restoration of the niche in the Holy Sepulchre, the place of Jesus’ burial and resurrection in Jerusalem, which has, for centuries, been the most venerated Christian shrine in the world.


The restoration project was announced two weeks ago – the day before Easter for the western world – by the three Christian denominations which for historic reasons hold joint jurisdiction of Jerusalem’s most important church: the Greek Orthodox, the Latins (represented by the Franciscan Custody of the Holy Land) and the Armenians. Restoration work is needed because of the progressive alteration of the mortars as a result of condensed moisture from the breath of thousands of pilgrims and candle smoke. The work is based on a specific project carried out by the National Technical University of Athens (NTUA) which all parties agree on: the work should take eight months, with completion expected at the start of 2017. Until yesterday, there had been talk about a restoration project being financed by the three denominations, public contributions disbursed by the Greek government and private benefactors.


The announcement from Amman now changes the game and was immediately and warmly welcomed by Patriarch Theophilos III who is head of the largest Christian community in the Holy Land. “His Beatitude Patriarch Theophilos III also said that His Majesty King Abdullah embodies in deed, and not only in word, the shared living of Muslims and Christians all over the world and particularly in the Holy Land,” Petra news agency reports. “Jordan’s role in protecting Christian existence in the Holy Land is clear and undeniable,” the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem continued, “King Abdullah spearheads the efforts of all Jordanians to sow the seeds of love and brotherhood between Muslims and Christians. We are reaping the fruits of these efforts in this age when sectarian wars are burning entire countries as can plainly be seen.”


There is, however, also a political aspect to King Abdullah’s choice, which is of some significance. Theophilos III himself underlined this, recognising the Hashemite sovereign as “Guardian and Custodian of the Christian and Muslim Holy Sites in Jerusalem”. For the King of Jordan, financing the restoration of the Holy Sepulchre is a way to affirm his prerogatives over the holy places which until the Six-Day war of 1967 were under Jordanian sovereignty. Jerusalem’s holy places include not only Christian sites but also the Muslim mosque of al Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock on the flat space above the Western Wall. The same pace treaty, which was signed between Israel and Jordan in the 90’s recognises the historic role of the Hashemite Kingdom in writing, in practice, however, its actual implementation in Jerusalem, which the Jewish state considers its sole and indivisible capital, it has become an increasingly heated subject in the “Holy City”.
So there are various plans and motivations that contributed to King Abdullah II’s decision. It is also worth noting that in his statement, Theophilos III explicitly links Jordan’s donation to the Pact of Umar, the agreement reached in 637, when Jerusalem was conquered by the Arabs. On that occasion, Caliph Umar, Muhammad’s second successor, respected the Basilica of the Holy Sepulchre, leaving it as a Christian place of worship instead of turning it into a mosque. It is thanks to this first important gesture made by the Caliph, that the niche of the Holy Sepulchre has survived as a Christian place of worship in the face of the many vicissitudes Jerusalem has faced throughout its history. Today – at a time when a so-called caliph is desecrating Christian sites in Syria and Iraq – reaffirming the Pact of Umar, is intended as a very clear message to the Muslim world, starting from its history and identity.

When one is in heaven, they already have the Beatific Vision of God, in full union with Him.

Belief that the saints in heaven intercede for us is biblical! The Book of Revelation portrays the twenty-four elders as offering our prayers to God like incense (Revelation 5:8). Those who sleep in Christ are still members of His Body, as are we. So we can ask them to pray for us the same way we would ask a fellow Christian on earth to pray for us.

Mary, of course, is a resurrected saint, from what we know on the Assumption. She, too, is a member of the Body of Christ, so she, too, offers our prayers before the Throne of Grace.

Early Christian Witness

"And whereas Eve had disobeyed God, Mary was persuaded to obey God, that the Virgin Mary might become advocate (advocata) of the virgin Eve" (St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:19:1).
"With the Mediator, you are the Mediatrix of the entire world" (S. Ephraem, Syri opera graeca et latine, v. 3, Romae, pp. 525, 528-9, 532 (373 AD)).

"The Lord said to his mother, 'Let your heart rejoice and be glad, for every favor and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven and from me and from the Holy Spirit. Every soul that calls upon your name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy and comfort and support and confidence, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens'" (John the Theologian, The Falling Asleep of Mary; 400 AD).

"Hail you who acceptably intercede as a Mediatrix for mankind." (Antipater of Bostra, AD 431)

Objections

1. The Bible does not tell us anywhere to pray to anyone except God.
The Bible doesn't tell us anywhere to pray to God the Holy Spirit, does this mean that it is wrong to pray to Him? Sacred Scripture does, however, contain invocations of the holy angels of God in the Book of Psalms (Ps 103:20-21; 148:1-2). Since God intends for us to pray these Psalms, there must be nothing wrong with believers on earth addressing the holy angels in Heaven.

So if we followed "the Bible alone" on this matter, we would pray only to to God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the holy angels - but not to God the Holy Spirit! There's something rather odd and unbalanced about that arrangement; we can address two Persons of the Trinity and some of God's creatures, but not the Third Divine Person - even though He is co-equal to the Father and the Son and infinitely greater than the angels? Strange indeed!

Of course, the Bible itself never claims to be the sole authority on matters of faith, so we need not follow "the Bible alone" on this or any matter. Sacred Tradition and Church history tell us that the early Christians addressed all Three Persons of the Trinity in prayer (no imbalance here), plus the holy angels and saints in Heaven. So the Catholic Church simply continues to do what she has always done from the beginning.

2. Even Jesus prayed only to God -- not to Mary!
Of course Jesus never prayed to Mary; He's God Incarnate, and God doesn't have to pray to the saints! We ask the saints to pray to the Father through Jesus for us, the same way one would ask Christians on earth to do that. Christ is their Way to the Father even as He is our Way, but Christ Himself obviously needs no intercessor, no "way" to the Father, since He and the Father are eternally One in Essence.

Moreover, "prayer" is when someone on earth petitions someone who is in heaven; since Mary was on earth the entire time Christ was on earth, neither He nor anyone else alive back then could have possibly "prayed" to her! Though I'm sure Jesus did ask her for things during His childhood - as any child asks his mother for what he needs - that would not have been "prayer" in the religious sense.

3. Matthew 6:5-15 tells us how to pray and to whom to pray.
The Lord's Prayer is certainly the greatest prayer of all, given by Christ Himself. However, it isn't the only way to pray. For instance, the Lord's Prayer is addressed to God the Father alone, but the Bible itself demonstrates that prayer to God the Son is also legitimate (Acts 7:59; Rev 22:20), and that it is okay to address the holy angels, as we saw above. So as great and important as the Our Father is for Christians, we can't use it to argue against prayer to anyone other than God the Father.


4. The Wedding at Cana does not prove Mary's intercession; she asked for something that Jesus did not want to give.
If He did not want to give it then why did He perform the miracle? He is the Sovereign Lord God; He does not have to answer any request which is against His will. Obviously, His words to Mary did not indicate a rejection of her request, and she, knowing Him very well, understood that.

5. Mary can't be a Mediatrix because the Bible states that there is only one Mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ (I Ti 2:5).
Read that verse in context: "There is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all" (I Timothy 2:5-6). Jesus' unique Mediatorship consists in Him being our only Savior. But, as the verses which come before this indicate, Christ is not our only intercessor. In I Timothy 2:1-4, St. Paul writes that Christians should pray for the salvation of all men - in other words, he is telling them to act as intercessors. Of course, their intercession is not independent of Christ the Mediator, for they have access to the Father only by His death.

So we actually see two types of "mediation" here: Christ is the One Mediator of our Salvation, the only Way to the Father, by whose death we may approach God and gain salvation. Christians, however, as members of the Body of Christ, engage in a lesser type of mediation called "intercession" by praying for others. This lesser mediation is different from and dependent upon Jesus' mediation of salvation; the members of the Body of Christ can only intecede through the mediation of the Head.

Mary's mediation is of the second type; she is the "Mediatrix of intercession", who "mediates" by praying for us. She certainly does not redeem us and give us access to the Father through her own person, as does Christ! He alone is the Savior, she a mere intercessor, totally dependent upon the the one Mediator of our Salvation. Apart from Him all intercession would be futile, including Mary's! So Jesus' Mediatorship of salvation does not rule out Mary's intercession, but is the very reason for its efficacy.

6. So how is Mary a "Mediatrix"?
As a fellow Christian, she has access to the throne of grace by Jesus Christ, and there intercedes for us. As our heavenly Mother she cares about us and prays for our needs (as any devout mother would pray for her children). As the Heavenly Gebirah she can make requests of the King of kings, for that was one of the roles of the queen-mother in the Davidic dynasty.

7. But Solomon refused his mother's bidding (I Kings 2:20-23).
Both Bathsheba and Solomon were fallible human beings; she made a request which he did not wish to grant, so he broke his word that he would give her anything she asked (I Kings 2:20). This is not so with Jesus and Mary; for Jesus is God and Mary, though a creature, is completely submissive to the will of God. So she never asks for anything which is against His will and Jesus never refuses her any request.

8. Jesus never refuses Mary any request? How can you Catholics believe that?!?!
Based on biblical principles! The Bible says that sin in our lives can hinder our prayers (James 4:3; I Peter 3:7), and that the prayers of the righteous are very effectual (James 5:16). Since Mary is utterly sinless, her prayers would therefore have the greatest effect. Also, the Bible says that if we ask according to God's will He hears us and we can know that we will receive it (I John 5:14-15). Since Mary only wants God's will to be done (Luke 1:38), she only prays according to His will, and so always receives everything she asks for.

9. How does she know God's will?
She is in heaven. Those in heaven see God's will and plan more clearly than we do.

10. How can Mary hear all those millions of prayers offered to her from all over the world?
Heaven is not like earth. Here our knowledge and attention span is severely limited, largely because our souls are limited by their connection to our lowly, physical bodies. However, the saints are disembodied spirits and Mary has a glorified, spiritual body which does not limit her soul as a physical body would. Thus they are able to see and know more than we can.

11. You must believe that Mary is omniscient like God, for she would have to be in order to hear all those prayers.
Not necessarily. Even if everyone in the world prayed to her at once, that would only be a finite number of prayers, and one does not need infinite knowledge to hear a finite number of prayers. God certainly can enable her to hear them without her becoming omniscient.

12. But Catholics pray to her in so many different languages; how can she understand them all?
Again, Heaven is not like earth. If God can give people the gift of interpretation of tongues (I Co 12:10), He can cause Mary to understand all the prayers addressed to her. Though we do not know exactly how God accomplishes this, we know that He can do it, for nothing is impossible with Him.

13. The Bible says that those in heaven rest from their earthly labors. If Mary is busy interceding for the whole world, where is her rest?
Perhaps your concept of rest may be different from the biblical one. St. Augustine said to God "Our hearts are restless until we find rest in Thee". This life is frustrating and unsatisfying, as the Book of Ecclesiastes says. The rest we get in Heaven is the fullness of Grace that comes from beholding the Beatific Vision.

"Eternal rest" does not mean that the blessed in Heaven are inactive (in fact, that term primarily applies to our bodies, which "rest" in the grave). Scripture does not portray Heaven as a place filled with millions of "couch potatoes" (cloud potatoes?) doing nothing. Rather, they are busy worshipping the Lord and offering our prayers before Him (Revelations 5:8).

Yet such "activity" is restful in comparison to our constant earthly labors. Most of the saints in heaven do not have bodies to get weary, and Our Lady's glorified body cannot experience exhaustion, so her intercession is not strenuous, but actually part of her heavenly rest.

14. God has forbidden us to contact the dead (Dt. 18:10–11; Is. 8:19), so we can't talk to the saints at all.
God has forbidden necromancy, the attempt to conjure up a spirit by occult practices so that one can ask it questions and gain secret knowledge or information from it. Simply asking a saint, "Please pray for me" is vastly different from conducting a seance, and no secret knowledge is sought at all.

15. Mary cannot hear our prayers or pray for us because she is dead and "the dead know nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5).
As we saw in a previous article, Mary is not dead; she was raptured into heaven body and soul. The text you cite comes from the Old Testament; Jesus had not yet come and the souls of the righteous dead reposed in Abraham's bosom. Since the Resurrection, however, the righteous are with the Lord in heaven (2 Co 5:8; Phil 1:22). The Bible reveals that they are quite conscious of earthly events (Rev 6:9-11) and perform an intercessory role by offering our prayers to God (Rev 5:8).

Those who sleep in Christ are still members of His Body, and since His Body is not divided by death, we still have communion with them. The Bible indicates that members of the Church have fellowship not only with God the Father and Jesus Christ, but with "an innumerable company of angels" and "the spirits of just men made perfect" (Hb 12:22-24).

16. God does not allow the saints to know what's happening on earth because we might ask for their intercession and so honor them too much.
The Bible never says that. It is a tradition of men fabricated as an excuse to ignore Mary and the saints. It also makes God seem like a neurotic father who doesn't want his children to talk to each other because he's afraid they'll start to love each other more than they love him! The early Church clearly believed that saints could hear our prayers and intercede for us, as is evident from graffiti carved into the tombs of martyrs. I would rather believe as the early Christians did than embrace a doctrine made up about five hundred years ago!

17. You Catholics think you can bypass Jesus by asking Mary.
When a Protestant asks his pastor or friend to pray for him, is he trying to "bypass Jesus"? No, since the pastor or friend must himself pray in Jesus Name! Even so, Mary must present our petitions to God the Father in Jesus' Name; she can't go to the Father any other way! Mary's intercession for us is like that of Christians on earth, only more pure and efficacious. She is essentially a "prayer warrior"--the greatest prayer warrior, for she intercedes for everyone in the world.

18. Catholics pray to Mary because they think that God won't listen to their prayers because of their sins.
That would depend on just how sinful one is. The Bible clearly teaches that our prayers can be hindered by such things as lack of faith (James 1:6-7), selfish motives (James 4:3), unconfessed sin (Psalm 66:18; Isaiah 59:1-2; John 9:31), not helping the poor (Proverbs 21:13), etc. This is one reason why God wants Christians to pray for one another; even if my prayers are hindered, yours may not be, so I can still benefit from your intercession on my behalf.

The saints in heaven have been made perfect (Hebrews 12:23), so they have no sin or selfishness to hinder their prayers. Because they are righteous and pleasing in His sight, their prayers are very effective (James 5:16; 1 Peter 3:12; 1 John 3:22). Since Mary is sinless, her prayers are the most effective of all. So God may well refuse to answer the prayers of a sinner, but will hear Mary's prayers on his behalf. It's not that He doesn't love us; it's just that our faith in and love for Him is so inconstant. In fact, God manifests His love and concern for us precisely by allowing the saints to intercede for our needs even if we can't pray for ourselves! Mary and the saints are wonderful prayer partners who can pray for us - and agree with us in prayer - before the Father.

19. Prayer to Mary and the saints detracts from time we could use to pray to God.
We could say the same of many other daily pursuits. Saint Paul says we should "pray without ceasing" (I Thessalonians 5:17); if we could learn to keep God in mind at all times, then conversation with other people (on earth or in heaven!) would not detract from prayer to God.

20. If I can go straight to God, I don't need Mary.
So why bother to ask living Christians to pray for you if you can go "straight to God"? Yet the Bible teaches us by example to ask for the prayers of other Christians!

This is like saying "As long as I can talk to my human father I can ignore the rest of my family". The Church is a family, a body; we all need one another: "The eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you" (I Co 12:21). Whether you realize it or not, you need Mary! She is part of the Body of Christ, and has a role to play for the benefit of the whole Body - including you!

Source: http://home.earthlink.net/~mysticalrose/marian11.html

This post has been edited by yeeck: Apr 12 2016, 12:08 PM

Did you see Objections 10,11,12?

What you pasted here as taken from http://www.gotquestions.org/prayer-saints-Mary.html were covered exactly in the source I pasted above.

This post has been edited by yeeck: Apr 12 2016, 02:18 PM

machine gun rapid fire mode ... ON!!!! so very impressed ... NOT!!!!

See #5.

In other words, you are still implying that the act of not being an alcoholic is required to enter into the Kingdom of God.

You are still implying that the act of being kind is required to enter into the kingdom of God.

The act of following the commandments is required to enter into the kingdom of God.

For your information, those 'works' you are talking about are really works from the Christian definition. You do not need to redefine it by putting your single inverted quotes.

Now I am not diminishing 'works' right now, but then from a Christian or protestant or my point of view, a person is saved not because of those 'work'. The sanctification process is not part of the salvation process. The salvation process has already finished at the justification point. The sanctification part is actually the work of the holy spirit in Him whereby this Christian has a greater realization of sin, a natural tendency to do good to others and is more sensitive of sin. He also starts to realize to futility of sin. In other words, it's through God's working in him that he becomes more and more sanctified. But from your view, he still needs to achieve all of those things in order to be saved. He still needs to stop going to the bar by "God's grace" to be saved. He needs to follow the commandments by "God's grace" in order to be saved, etc. You are trying to justify that works are not works because those works are done by God's grace. Do you know that the discipline is actually part of works. Let's face the fact. You are actually still acknowledging that the person still has to use effort(discipline) in order to stop going to the bar. So stop with this "it is only by God's grace--completely unmerited by works--that one is saved." because it is really a misnomer. In the end, works still has a huge part to play in Catholic theology.

As for saying yes to Christ. Well, from my theology point of view, our freewill would probably have rejected Christ because of our sin nature. It is only because of the Holy Spirit conviction that one actually accepts Christ. Without it, it would be impossible. The thing is, sinners will never accept Christ out of their own corrupted free will. But that's not the main topic at hand.

This post has been edited by sylar111: Apr 12 2016, 07:19 PM

In Matthew 27:51, the tearing of the curtain of the temple signified that a way was now open into the presence of God. The curtain separating the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place barred the way into the presence of God. Through the death of Christ, the curtain was removed and the way into the Most Holy Place (i.e. God's presence) was open for all who believe in Christ and his saving word.

We do not need someone like Mary who is a human to pray on our behalf.

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This post has been edited by khool: Apr 12 2016, 10:38 PM

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This post has been edited by khool: Apr 12 2016, 10:38 PM

That's not what the Church understands by the tearing of the veil. It means that Heaven is open once more after the first fall of Man (Adam), and because of that we have saints in heaven!

You will have to argue with St James if you think that works is not important. The usual error is adding the word 'alone' to anything. "Faith alone", "Bible alone". Even "works alone" is heretical to Catholics. Wow, I'm not sure how many other Protestants agree with your view that humans do not have the freewill to accept Christ. A slippery slope there as it sounded rather Calvinist.

Have a read here on the Catholic understanding of predestination vs freewill: http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/...ned-for-freedom

This post has been edited by yeeck: Apr 12 2016, 11:32 PM

Oh, i think you missed #1.

Interesting that you should bring up the story of Saul and witch of Endor, because the very same source that you quoted earlier said that it was God that allowed the witch of Endor to summon the prophet Samuel in order to give King Saul the news of his coming defeat and death. http://www.gotquestions.org/witch-of-endor.html, the same position shared by Catholics.

However, there is no resemblance in this case with asking for the intercession of the saints. There is no necromantic conjuring of the dead (because as shown earlier the saints are spiritually alive, while Mary is both spiritually and physically alive). Saul wanted to know the future. Catholics don't ask the saints to know the future but that their requests are hopefully what is good for them and in accordance to the Holy Will of God.

So your claim that it is God's grace completely unmerited by works is a lie then. You have proven actually by that reply that truth really does not matter. The same attitude with the atheist actually. Because if truth matters, you reply will not be so shabby like above. So now you can lie to others about work being unmerited by works when the fact is that is never your ideology. Reminds me of the greatest liar of all time.

Just want to remind you that when you are believing in a lie what you believe in will crumble under pressure as you have just displayed right now.

Ok thanks for your confirmation then. Thanks for your confirmation that you were never ever my brother in Christ.

As I have said earlier, I never ever said that works does not play a part in a Christian walk and like the typical atheist, you twisted my words. Yes you are no different from the atheist that I debate from them in spirit.

Remember what Jesus said about tradition.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13 making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

So I guess you can now use tradition to override scripture.

BTW, if you actually read the objections and think through carefully, you will find that they do not make sense and can actually be refuted very easily but then truth was never your interest but rather you just want to protect your traditions that's all.

Why are you afraid of debating in the other thread? You do not want others to find out that Catholicism is a lie?

This post has been edited by sylar111: Apr 12 2016, 11:46 PM

So, just because God allowed the witch of Endor to summon the prophet Samuel, you are implying that this practice is ok.

The fact of the matter was, it actually showed that Saul has become so desperate that right now he has to do what is detestable to God just to achieve his aims. That story actually shows how despicable Saul has become and God is actually mocking him for doing something which Saul knows God hate. It's pretty obvious but then you are probably blind.

How you can use this to justify necromancy when scripture clearly says that it is wrong shows how misguided you really are.

You cannot even separate man-made tradition from Apostolic Tradition handed down from Christ to His Apostles to His Church. Is there anything else that I need to say? Protestants believe in Scripture alone (another "alone" heresy) which ironically is not even biblical. Yes, not biblical, as confirmed by the last chapter of Gospel according to St John.

"BTW, if you actually read the objections and think through carefully, you will find that they do not make sense and can actually be refuted very easily but then truth was never your interest but rather you just want to protect your traditions that's all."

Truly, I don't even find any of the objections convincing. I can testify this because before I accepted the Catholic Church as the true Church founded by Christ, I was searching high and low even among the various Protestant sects. I can even say I was anti-Catholic once, more like out of ignorance of what the Catholic Church really teaches, you know..stuff like Jack Chick's tracts, and other anti-Catholic polemics. Only the Catholic Church has the certitude to proclaim dogma, and the historicity to back its claims. Come to think of it, to say that out of the blue that Protestants in the 16th century suddenly became enlightened and the Church has been in error for 1500 years before the advent of Protestantism is pure blasphemy to God as if to say that He did not preserve His Church as He promised until the end of time. Pity the poor souls because the great 'reformers' did not come to enlighten them until about 1500 years later. So I'm fine if you want to accuse me or call me a liar or anything, but please do better at least when you present your arguments. I even allow people like you to post here, so what is there to be afraid or to hide? The other topic was on the Pope and gays. At least this thread is more generic to Catholicism. Is that so hard for you to understand? If it is hard, let me know, I'll try to make it easier to understand.

This post has been edited by yeeck: Apr 13 2016, 12:10 AM