The trend would also be crazy coding interview tests that everyone must do regardless of experience.


Interview process has gone down the drain nowadays and your portfolio/experience are no longer important to many of these companies.

Everyone gets lumped into fresh grad category. Every tom d*** harry company thinks they're the next google/facebook/microsoft so they copy their hiring routines.


Then they complain why they cannot find anyone at all.

I cant agree more with you... You are totally damned right. I have a skill, I
have an experience, I can talk about on how I developed my previous things
using what kind of technology and programming language, even communicate
in excellent way... But still, during interview they will ask you about CSS
and array... Dear God.

-- Mohammad Shahrul --

Unless your portfolio and experience consists of open source code, it doesn't tell me whether you can code because I haven't actually seen that code.

For all I know, you could be really good at talking and debating about code, but can't actually do it. A coding test removes this doubt.

CD portfolio or even open source code is not enough. They claim that you could've taken it from other people.


The problem with coding tests is they test things that you have not used since uni or college and these tests are done on the white board, no PC.

That's why such hiring practices are sorely broken.

If an interviewer cannot properly tell then obviously they are not good enough to do proper hiring.

This post has been edited by RiddleMeThat: Aug 16 2014, 07:18 PM

Before i hire people base on how they talk...
Good programmer shy ..not talk much.
Bad programmmer talk a lot how he.she achive and respect and said all people depend on him.if not company fail bungkus
Code monkey programmmer talk how thix x framework y framework
*** other people might hired diffirent way

Famous q fabonoci ??? Wtf is that if write in paper i dono. I just knew business logic and how it implement in the system

trust me, its seriously easy to tell if the person had taken code from somebody else and claimed it on their own when you question them on the work that they show to you.

The problem is when the interviewer don't even bother to test you on your own code and insist you do their parlor tricks on the whiteboard or paper and other cs stuff you forgotten after leaving uni for over 10 years.

They all want the easy way out then complain they can't find good programmers.

Every company wants or thinks they're the next google/facebook/twitter and copy these company's hiring methods.

I always read about companies complaining about our grads and programmers in Malaysia but I never see a proper counter article to these companies claims.

It's always one sided in the news.

But to be honest, most of the stuff required by companies are actually not taught in schools/uni (node.js, ruby on rails etc). Those who put some time to learn those new technologies are usually hardcore that learn by using materials online (stackoverflow, github, bitbucket etc).

In this case, is it fair to say 'good artist copy, great artist steal'? - it's okay to learn from other people's code, and then improve on it?

At any point, how to prove one's worth? Not everyone is a genius.

well as far as I'm concerned, if its the company's own interview process that's having issues, then its their own loss after all.

but from what I've seen, most of the complaints has been about the fresh grads, of which far less than 10 years has passed since they last looked at the CS stuff in uni. not about people who had left uni for over 10 years.

besides, you should at least remember the more important CS stuff that you've learnt anyways.

RiddleMeThat, u are totally wrong, those cs algorithm tasks needed to get tested on the spot, to identify the candidate how good their problem solving skill and logic is. those cs stuffs and algorithm logic are extremely important in business world.
you can code this and create this, it doesn't mean u can solve some problems.
RiddleMeThat, i guess u are quite comfort on what u doing? not much challenging tasks been given in your job?

try interview at Jobstreet, see whether u can pass their test, all written in paper and explain how it works to interviewer and tell them why this way is better and faster on the spot.

It depends... if you are testing someone's rote memorization, yeah you could a question like "write me an A* search on the board".

The approach I take to the code test is to give the candidate a fresh Ubuntu laptop and a paragraph describing the problem (in plain english) and examples. He is allowed to install whatever he wants, refer to any material, and code in any language, limited to 1 hour.

What I'm testing is whether he can: 1) understand the problem, 2) write code, 3) solve the problem.

The problem with people like you is you've never been on the end trying to hire people and lack the experience to evaluate candidates based on other factors and not hardcore technical skills. If you cannot smell bs without a coding test, you're unfit to be an interviewer, period.

I've coded much more complicated routines than ever needed in apps. I've done all those data structures and I find they're not really needed in many of the stuff we do nowadays unless you're doing OS level stuff like SQL server engines, writing OS, compilers, image manipulation software, or even develop games which I used to do. Heck, I don't even bother to remember off the hat code worth over 5 years ago I did last time unless I go back to refresh all those linked list, stacks and others I implemented for a game.

My most challenging code recently deal with queues, stacks and recursion and even that I don't bother to memorize what I did. It's a game related mobile project, but less challenging than my x86 assembly code project 10 years ago.

If I were much younger I would probably use these tests when looking for candidates in such field but I realized I am arrogant and unrealistic to do so, causing me to miss out way too many more competent candidates than necessary to fill the tasks at hand.

I realized that most interviewers who use irrelevant interviewing techniques..

1. Lack understanding of the position hiring for.

2. Has some sort of ego/insecurity/inferiority complex issues that they need to project/bully candidates.

3. Are put in as a shortcut way to get programmers which they could work with instead of what's good for the whole team, maybe because they're so sick of interviewing candidates they just use tests instead of actually talking to every one of them instead.


Never ever put a pure technical/programmer to interview candidates. They're more likely to have extreme bias purely based on that area only and because of their lack of business acumen, people soft skills and foresight, they will not be able to identify the best fit candidate. Fear of competition is also a reason why a programmer may deliberately reject someone better than them for promotion competition so they might deliberately pass on the better candidate.

When my ex-boss forced me to interview all potential candidates, I never make them do coding tests because it was unnecessary. I can easily spot their ability asking them to explain things or data structures. I don't like wasting time making them write code because that environment is not the same as actual working environment.

But i'll always give priority to those who can show me what they did before instead of those who expect me to view their grades.

Coding tests waste their time and my time. I don't even need those to evaluate fresh grads.

Note: I split this discussion thread from the one asking about trends in programming languages.

Usually, I did pass the programming, SQL, iq test. But then, I never pass the HR. I wonder what HR really wants. I guess my attitude is a problem. haha. So far the coding tests are ok. It's not too deep ( no linked list, heap/stack ). To have a hard coding test ( like Google, Facebook ) is ok too, if only your company does need that kind of implementation. Even Google has improved their interview/coding test, so I guess it depends on what kind of company are we talking about

p/s: I'm still jobless. lol

my coding test is on how to improve search in database using algorithm...
pure plain algorithm that execute below 0.2 ms


yeah, im talking on big o notation shit that pass on algorithm with sorting improvement...

I'm fine with coding tests. If couldn't code the problem they gave me, then I know what I'm lacking in. It's a good thing, since I studied programming myself.

I agree with your 1) and 2) but mind you, these issues are not limited to just technical people.

It largely boils down to the organisation culture and how the managers handle such cases as well, that causes the extreme bias that you mentioned.

I've seen an organisation where they had failed to get any vendors to get involved in a project they're wanting to do as the managers reacted in quite an allergic manner when told that the overall architecture of what they're wanting to do simply won't work, so decided to hire their own in house developers for it. its been a few years but yet still failed to hire anybody for it till now because:
- fresh graduates do not have what they expect
- the more experienced people will just take a look at the job ad and can tell that its going to be hell and therefore won't apply

I guess you guys have more software development experience than me. Anyway, I would like share my humble opinion.

RiddleMeThat and wKkaY have their standpoint.

Before interview session, an interviewer should have a clear mind of candidates' requirements. If I were interviewer, I would evaluate candidates in 3 ways:

1. I give them a complex problem. I would like to see how candidates view, analyse, and solve a problem. The solution can be done in any form (explanation, pseudocode, coding).

2. The candidates with a few years of programming experience suppose to have deep understanding in a least one server side scripting language and a few client side scripting/markup languages (web dev for example). I would give them a test to solve a simple problem within a timeline. Candidates are allowed to write in any programming languages. I would like to see how they implement a solution. Design pattern, algorithm and efficiency of their code are evaluated.

3. I would have a chat with candidates' about their daily routines, hobbies, etc. I would like to work together with people who always see the bright side even facing critical problem in tight timeline. Great people is optimistic and "bright".

My interview approach looks like a lot of "steps". The hiring process is crucial because every people (every role) in a team plays important role especially your goal is to develop really great stuffs. You know what I mean.

My thought might be wrong. Any suggestions are welcome! Thank you for your time.

How crazy? Implement a facebook clone in an interview and expected salary 2k?


>>Interview process has gone down the drain nowadays and your portfolio/experience are no longer important to many of these companies.
Seen before candidates with portfolio/'experience' as thick as an encyclopedia and code with 100% global variables?



This post has been edited by dstl1128: Aug 18 2014, 10:46 AM

Many years back when I attended an interview conducted by a UK based software development company. What they did was first get me to introduce myself over Skype, with their counterpart at UK. After exchanging few questions & answers, I was given a task broken down into few parts. It comprises of a true/false kind of theory test & 2-3 coding tasks. I was told to bring that home and submit my solution the following day via email. Those problem statements are nothing complicated, like to write a function that convert any figure into words.

Now do all that without a computer, compiler, everything on the whiteboard and a marker pen within 30-60 minutes.

You just described my programming exam back then in university.
The only different is we did that on a piece of paper instead of whiteboard. We were given a problem statement and require to write the code on a paper, similar to writing an essay.
I attended another interview by a local company based at KL with the similar question too, where I was asked to write the code on a piece of paper.

Which probably explains why so many companies complain about not being able to hire 'quality' programmers. Their interview process is broken because it is dominated by egoistic nerdy programmers who cannot see beyond those tests.

When I interviewed candidates I never make them do those tests. The ones I hire was able to do the work anyway so it wasn't an issue.

My only complaint is lack of application of the job position.

Wished all my interviewers have your mindset. definitely agree with your points. I don't fancy interviewers that judge a candidate based on whether he/she still remember the language syntax/detailed implementation of some data structure/algo that one has studied like eons ago which can be easily referenced via google nowadays.

What's your opinion of wkkay's kind of test? (post #12 on page 1)

it pretty much simulates a real world situation. open book type of test, especially on the time limit where you're rushing to fix an urgent issue before the deadline.

On the contrary, I agree with wkkay, and that we can sniff out bs better (faster, and more consistently) by giving a coding test and seeing how you actually try to solve the problem. e.g. Touch typist? Which code editor? Can function well in new environments? What excuses given if something's not working?

It's all in the how and what coding test you give. The downside is that this only works well more the more experienced interviewer.

The test method is not very clear since we do not have a clear understanding of what the problem is.

At the very least he provides a pc and tools to do it.

The ones I am talking about are those whiteboard/paper stuff. NO hardware allowed. No googling.

But you have to understand one thing. Depending on the nature of the problem, 60 minutes may or may not be enough, so unless we know what question he is asking, we can't really say if it's a fair question for the candidate or not. The software the candidate wants to use also might take some time to download if necessary so he might exceed 60 minutes if problems crop up.

But the fact remains this. There will be less and less interest in such jobs in the future precisely because of the way interviews are conducted by egoistic programmers who're made to be in charge of the interview process.

The very same nerdy egoistic group of insecure people who have not moved on from that anti-social behaviour will be the ones who would eventually drive away interests in such jobs, and already declining pool of applicants.

Eventually when companies still cannot find the required talent, they may need to revise their hiring process and see if their developers/programmers are inadvertently sabotaging the process because of their egos.

Once again, if you can't smell bs during verbal interview and require coding tests to do it, then you as a programmer/software engineer, lack soft skills and good judgement.

I wonder why you come out so strongly against tests. Are you approaching it from the point of view of a candidate or from the point of view of the interviewer.

Candidate:
- all these stupid tests, why am I standing here at the whiteboard, can't even use google to look up references?
- they want me to write 500 lines of C code with pen an paper? Does it need to compile without error?
- I don't remember how to do this. I left college 5 years ago.
- this task would take 5 days, and you want me to do it in one hour?
- I don't see how this is relevant
- I'm tired of doing all these tests. An interview will take only 15 minutes tops. Hour long tests are too long. I've 8 other interviews to go to today.

Interviewer:
- if you need to use a computer to look up references, you should ask. We give you extra points for that
- only broad outline of an algorithm in English
- if you forget or don't know, we expect you teach yourself using the Internet. And do it quickly and efficiently
- we only want an outline of how you would approach the problem, and start a llittle bit of the detailed work
- you don't know what's relevant, you haven't worked here yet. Or, we're testing something else indirectly, not what you think
- so many candidates, half cannot write any program at all, how do I tell them apart? Should I spend 15 minutes talking to each one or spend 30 minutes making a test

Test can be made badly yes. But I don't think tests are always bad.

In an ideal situation, the interviewer would be able to tell just by talking to the candidate, but in real life,, the situation is not always ideal.

What if the interviewer is not that good an interviewer (because that is not his primary job function), or they are hiring someone to plug a hole in their expertise rather than hire a junior/assistant for an existing programmer? Think of a smaller company of 20-50 people, rather than a large one of several hundred with full time HR staff.

'Chat' interview will just make bullshiter/textbooker looks more promising.

A simple test will just weed out large portion of these people.

Hehe.. Last time 2007 .i ask one simple thing.create hello world...in any lang.pening boh

@wKkaY, @dkk

Regarding my interview approach suggested in post #19, do you think it is good way?

True enough. My Current job, when i go through with interview with this company First Phrase some chit-chat(self intro to HR), 2nd Phrase taken to a computer with a question ready on the able. Choose one question to code. Surprisingly a lot of people gave up half way.

I think it is a pretty sane approach.

imho having some written coding test during interview isn't inherently a bad thing.
key is how it is evaluated.

expecting a full working code with perfect optimization, etc... if there is any candidate that fully meets this expectation, it would be safe to say that odds are the company can't afford them

a more realistic expectation would be to see how the candidate reacts.
does he freeze up? does he give up and say i don't know? does he come up with an alternative i.e. pseudo?
this can tell a lot about the candidate and can somewhat help help gauge the experience they have


on a more specific note on ts original post.. it seems to be gripe about the interviewer testing specifically on specific areas while ignoring the rest.
it can be that this is to fill a very specific spot which needs that specific set of skills/knowledge. this "plug-n-play" approach is actually quite common although the effectiveness is questionable. i've seen some department in my company do this. they even tag on a referral incentive of upwards 4k and the result was over half a year and no success

This guy's experience in hiring developers mirrors mine. That's how I find candidates too.

http://devinterviews.pen.io/


Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

When Evan Carmi posted his Google job interview experience (http://ecarmi.org/writing/google-internship/ ) on HN, I felt reminded of my bygone startup days. In over a decade of "modern" IT startup job interviews we have made no progress whatsoever. If anything, I was part of the problem there for a few years. I simply copied a hiring mechanism that seemed like a standard at the time, and in doing so I failed miserably at the most important goals a company should observe when looking for new developers. Today the tech front pages are full of Larry Page's efforts to turn around the company, but I think performance problems at developer-centric companies may to a large part be burned into their DNA by a deeply faulty hiring process.

How We Did It
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My cofounder and I were running a small web development shop in Germany. We had started working literally out of my friend's basement. Over time, we grew, and moved into real office space. At first it was easy to find new employees, we could just ask our friends to come in and work for us. Of course, that model didn't scale, but it performed a very important function: it made sure we hired people that were a good fit for the company, both on a personal and a professional level. Then came the day when we needed to fill positions by bringing in people from the outside.

One of the redeeming features of the German regional unemployment offices is they will send you a large stack of CVs on demand, within a few hours of calling them on the phone. I was pleasantly surprised that we didn't have to hire an agency to do this. Together with the CVs we already had from people who applied to the job posting on our website, we now had some sifting to do. In the end, we agreed on about a dozen of the best and invited them for an interview. This is the part where everything went wrong:

The Standard Dev Interview
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A candidate would come in, usually all dressed up in their best suit and tie, we'd sit down and have a talk. That talk was essentially like an oral exam in college. I would ask them to code algorithms for all the usual cute little CS problems and I'd get answers with wildly varying qualities. Some were shooting their pre-canned answers at me with unreasonable speed. They were prepared for exactly this kind of interview. Others would break under the "pressure", barely able to continue the interview.

To be honest, when we first started doing this I had to look up these puzzles in advance, mainly to make sure I didn't embarrass myself. This should have been the first warning sign that maybe we weren't exactly testing for skills that were most relevant to our requirements. If these doubts occurred to me, I must have dismissed them very quickly. After all, it was the way everyone approached the interview process.

Of course, we ended up hiring the candidate with the smoothest answers. Inevitably, the next job openings came, we did it again and again in the same fashion, for the rest of the company's lifetime. If this sounds familiar to you, you are clearly not alone.

Actual Job Performance
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But how did the candidates we selected measure up? The truth is, we got very mixed results. Many of them were average, very few were excellent, and some were absolutely awful fits for their positions. So at best, the interview had no actual effect on the quality of people we were selecting, and I'm afraid that at worst, we may have skewed the scale in favor of the bad ones.

What does bad and good even mean in this context? Let's have a look some of the benchmarks that I consider important:

Company Culture. In hindsight, one of the most important features a new employee should have is compatibility with the spirit of the people who already work there. The Standard Dev Interview performed worst in this area, for obvious reasons. It's difficult to judge people's personalities in interviews because they are not exactly themselves. In fact, they're incentivized not to be themselves.

Programming Competence. Somewhat counterintuitively, the code examples done during the interview were a bad indicator for actual competence on the job. Real world projects rarely consist of implementing binary searches without access to a parser or literature. It turned out that employees who had done very well in the code examples were not always able to transfer theoretical knowledge into practical solutions. Having candidates write sorting algos on the whiteboard is a method that rewards people with great and precise short-term memory who come prepared for exactly these kinds of questions. In our case, we needed resourceful coders who could write neat, stable, and elegant software - and the interview process wasn't delivering them to us.

Project Management. People who did well in the interview were not necessarily good team mates or even good presenters in front of our customers. This result, too, was surprising to me. Turns out, sucking up to an interviewer for an hour is a completely different skill set than, say, being good at coordinating with your coworkers or the people who pay our bills. Nor was their interview performance indicative of the ability to write good documentation or how to behave in online communications.

The Result
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The results of a hiring process such as this may be one of the factors responsible for a company to lose its startup spirit and its creative soul. This was certainly the case with our company. As the CEO our ultimate failure was certainly my fault, however, having the wrong people on the job was a large part of the company's inability to deliver the quality and quantity of output needed to sustain it. Infighting poisoned our teams. Incompetence was covered up with good presentation skills and ass-kissing. Good people left the company because they hated the new atmosphere.

Though I had to let go many people for different reasons over the years and in the end had to deliver the hardest speech of my life on the morning I dissolved the company, I only went "full Trump" once on an employee. It was the one who had displayed the best interview performance and the best academic references of them all only a year before.

Sure, that's an extreme example. Most companies succeed regardless. But I still believe we can vastly improve the chances of finding candidates that are good fits by radically changing the way we do interviews. And in our case, that would probably have made all the difference in the world.

An Alternative
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So what should a developer job interview look like then? Simple: eliminate the exam part of the interview altogether. Instead, ask a few open-ended questions that invite your candidates to elaborate about their programming work.

- What's the last project you worked on at your former employer?
- Tell me about some of your favorite projects.
- What projects are you working on in your spare time?
- What online hacker communities do you participate in?
- Tell me about some (programming/technical) issues that you feel passionately about.

These questions are designed to reveal a great deal about the person you have in front of you. They can help you decide whether the candidate is interested in the same things as you, whether you like their way of thinking, and where their real interests lie. It's tougher for them to bullshit their way through here, because the interviewer can drill deeper into a large number of issues as they present themselves.

What about actual coding ability? Well, take a few moments after the interview and look into some code the candidate wrote. Maybe for an open source project, maybe they have to send you something that's not public, doesn't matter. Looking at actual production code tells you so much more than having them write contrived fiveliners on the whiteboard.

I'm sure you can come up with even more questions and other ways to engage the interviewee. At this point, pretty much any idea will be an improvement.

Nay-saying
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Most people are quick to defend the status quo, and sure, that's a rewarding position to hold. It's risk free and you can always fall back on the old argument "a lot of smart, rich and successful people do it the old way, so my money is on whatever they are doing".

❜❜Nice, but that doesn't work for large, successful companies. Your idea doesn't scale.❛❛
Sure it scales, in terms of effort per interview there is no difference. There is no reason this couldn't work in larger companies. In the end, the interviewer always makes a personal and deeply subjective decision, I'm merely suggesting a way that delivers more relevant information for that purpose.

❜❜The best programmers have no spare time projects.❛❛ or: ❜❜The most talented people I know work from 9 to 5 and then go home to watch football/be with their families/whatever.❛❛
This is not my experience. I'm not saying that a good programmer should not have a life. But I do believe that a certain amount of enthusiasm for programming is called for. And really, if you have such a great skill, not using it for fun seems kind of wasteful to me.

❜❜In my spare time I'm working on making the next million for my company. Oh, when I'm not working for my company? I'm with my family or friends.❛❛ (verbatim from http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2385148)
That's great, those people can surely show me something they have been working on. I would, however, consider the lack of any hobby projects a warning sign for _some_ development jobs.

Final Thoughts
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It has been my experience that the traditional developer interview is insufficient at finding good candidates. While the typical whiteboard coding exercises correlate somewhat with general CS competence, they are poor indicators of actual programming performance. It is my contention that we have been doing them this way for years simply because they're easy to administer, but the data that's coming out of these interviews is largely irrelevant at best. We as an industry should move to more personalized interview questions that focus on the entirety of a developer's skill set. Also, I believe it is more productive to judge production code as opposed to abstract modular puzzles that have no real connection to the actual job in question. Most importantly, I am convinced that gaining insight into the developer's real personality is just as important as checking for professional competence, because one bad fit can destroy an entire team.

The above article is not about good developers. It is broader and about good employees in software development job setting.

Let me say about other things. There are probably two types of smooth-talking talented developers. I can't back up these claims but it is solely by my readings and observations. And only one type of not so smooth-talking interviewees.

First type is all-rounded talented i.e. he/she can write beautiful and accurate code on whiteboard as well as a smooth-talker.

The second type is he/she can't write code in a bat (i.e. while somebody's watching but how do you now that because he/she could by lying) but is a smooth-talker.

With regard to the second type, the only way is to examine his/her coding ability online and gauge his talent and make sure you're better than him/her in order to be a good judge.

The other one is antisocial and surprisingly he/she could be talented and you have to refer to your company's culture whether he/she is good fit.

All in all finding good people is tough.

@TheSolver, in your opinion, what is a good way to hire great programmers?

no such animal really.

here's something from a few years back, during a conference when people from Pivotal (before they got bought over) were describing how they work and the emphasis on pair programming, and how they really adhere to that despite having their offers being turned down some of the people that they really want to hire because of the enforced pair programming bit.

the presentation after that was by somebody from GitHub, also describing how they work, and the first thing they said was that they don't do pair programming.

the best you can do is to hire people who can fit into your organisation well and can adapt well to the technology stack that you're using.

Quite rare.but still got..
Find in startup arena.for cormmecial programmmer. They dont deliver good product they deliver deadline

I am fine with coding tests too. I have attended many interviews that require coding tests. There is one interview where they show me my coding test result and I am doing very good but I am not hired. The reason? After they show me the result, they ask me one more question: Am I satisfied with the result? I answer no, because I have a perfectionist attitude and very detailed person. Maybe they scare I am too ambitious and will not stay long there, so I not get the job. The ways they interview, if they followup the coding tests with some questions afterward to judge the candidate attitude and approach, I think that are all good.

Haha.me tooo.never satisfied.

I've coded for like 5 years. Mostly markup language like html/css with a bit of js. Html5/css3, frameworks (bootstrap/foundation) is nothing new to me. Occasionally did some php and vb.net. Currently busy with portal dev using Sharepoint 2013. My colleague always said "You know lots of things. You can do design, you can create/mod the template, you can do the config, you can dev the webpart and you even know other lang. Try jump to other company. You are underpaid here" and I hate it. Really hate it. Because I always feel my skills is not enough for me to go thru the interview. To get other job. Coding test? My total nightmare. Never been any but I always think that I will break and fail. I have no problem to explain the flow like "create this class, call it this and then" but to code? I really need to refer my previous code or Google. When some people talk or discuss about subject that I am not familiar with (core, assembly, x86, heap, stack, memory allocation, deep cs stuff) I was like "shhhyytteee..I am nooobs..the hell they talking about. I have no fckg idea..". X_X

i refuse to agree with this one!
its about how u show yourself in interview..
some code testing might be differentiate good programmer or self-proclaim good programmer
show some kill..
also be honest.. nothing wrong with being honest with your own level

Relak bro.. .. Not to offense anyone..just my experince.

Samote=WinkyJr,Aug 24 2014, 01:47 AM]
I've coded for like 5 years. Mostly markup language like html/css with a bit of js. Html5/css3, frameworks (bootstrap/foundation) is nothing new to me. Occasionally did some php and vb.net. Currently busy with portal dev using Sharepoint 2013. My colleague always said "You know lots of things. You can do design, you can create/mod the template, you can do the config, you can dev the webpart and you even know other lang. Try jump to other company. You are underpaid here" and I hate it. Really hate it. Because I always feel my skills is not enough for me to go thru the interview. To get other job. Coding test? My total nightmare. Never been any but I always think that I will break and fail. I have no problem to explain the flow like "create this class, call it this and then" but to code? I really need to refer my previous code or Google. When some people talk or discuss about subject that I am not familiar with (core, assembly, x86, heap, stack, memory allocation, deep cs stuff) I was like "shhhyytteee..I am nooobs..the hell they talking about. I have no fckg idea..". X_X

[/quote]
Same . i m noob. All work now sap sap sap?

no bro i am not mad
just joking around..

btw before i start at my new company, i do interview some programmers on my previous company..
somehow it is quite true dat some talkative programmer fail to do codes while quiet type succeed more
too bad company didnt want to hire them

do they really throw college questions at you?

It is hard to look for good programmers in Penang. My company will hire those who is interested in programming and will provide the necessary training in programming and business logic.

We are using
VB6 - fresh graduate might never heard of it
ASP3 - never learned but mostly picked by fresh graduate in a few weeks
Android - not many college have Android lesson

So, we mostly train them on the programming.

Someone from previous post said the biggest problem is waiting for ppl to apply, this one I 100% agree. Not many apply for the jobs. RM2500 for fresh graduate with training. After confirmed increase based on performance. If good can get RM2800 after 3months.

I just moved to sp.. Finding job area penang.but vb6
Dam cool yo. I like vb6 compare to .net winform or wpf.asp3 it old asp page vb? Maintain old system maybe? Ado.recordset.movenext movefirst .

Yes, maintaining old system.

"I've taken a whiteboard test that asked me to come up with an algorithm that was difficult for me. I got the job even though my solution was horribly inefficient (and I knew it), and the interviewer later told me that the point wasn't to see what algorithm I knew - it was to see if I acted like an ass when I didn't know stuff."

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8333623

The last time I attended an interview for a programming job I was given an IQ test rather than programming test. Answers done by previous candidates were visibles on the answer sheets. In order not to confuse myself I requested clean sheets of A4 papers to redraw all the answers.

The interviewer was more impressed with the way I answer the questions and it earned me a 4 months holiday/training in Houston.

some are.. but even college question, some candidate fail to do it..
even graduate with flying color

those all 3 quite rare..
most IPT stop teaching that and Android, they don't feel like it is a much market in Malaysia
My FYP i propose for Android app ( a simple one ) but the FYP coordinator and dean of uni reject it saying no market for that

damn son you're genius!

i suck at answering questions on a whim.
presentations, essays, coding all also.
gv me 2 time and i can produce top notch 9/10 stuff tho...

Most of the time the interviewer dont know programming and shit, so most of them depends on looking at interviewee's cert. But those cert most of the time doesnt mean anything.

During my college time, my coding skill already exceeded my lecturer, where my lecturer asked me to write a solution to a question to the board(guess because he saw everybody was trying while i do nothing), i just walk to the board and code like 10-15 lines of code(linked list related, replace node). Then the lecturer just look at my code, and didnt say anything, then wipe the board, and ask everybody to copy his answer.

So what do you expect from the students of these college ? They passed their exam not because of their capability of code, but memorize, and only like 4 out of 30 subjects has direct linkage to programming, others like add maths, data structures, moral(WTF), and the FYP can be easily solved by paying(plenty of examples in even codemaster section).

So if these interviewers dont have the ability to code, they dont trust certs, they dont trust you either, what choice do they have ? Yes I agree with you, if they dont have the ability, then dont do it. But most of the time, its an order from the management, "get a few programmers, get our website and e-commerce settled", u gonna answer "no sir" ?

If you feel u arent feeling well about those tests, its a fair game, just walk away, if all 30 out of 30 of their interviewees simply walk away, then u still have a chance =P. Hes the boss in this scenario, just like i dont like "negaraku" in cinemas, what can i do about it ?

* I said Most not All

I go two interview past two week

1. One asking if wanted to learn apple script because they used it.He said no API for adobe software.

Back in the night i find if were true if adobe don't have api for scripting.. Yes they have.

2. Asking basis question about html,css,javascript and sql and write it paper ?
** dam my writing are bad.. dono how they will read it..
I said to the,they was no good or bad about programming. I just manipulate thing up.. doesn't mean i remember all those php function. I'm a manipulator.If i were to said good and bad it will be a flame war language.
** Quite nice company..

Been through interviews with a few software vendor and all of them actually gave a test altho the questions are very simple questions (maybe depending on the person being tested i guess)
the questions i got are usually SQL related especially on how you intend to manipulate/relate the data given (in tables) to cater for a given scenario. All of them are actually satisfied with answers being presented in psuedo code or even as brief as plotting out in a form of a DFD with a little verbal explanation.
Ultimately, i find it as a test on how well a person is at solving a problem rather than specific language/syntax knowledge.

This post has been edited by Bonchi: Sep 23 2014, 01:24 PM

i just show them my signature below and resume then they call me for an interview.

wow your so kewl

Are you f**kin serious? But you have your own company right? Why working for other people?

Some people are simply not meant to own companies. Look at Linus Torvalds, the Linux creator and the *richest man in the world. He programs at home in his own time and can spend time with his family and yet he earns a salary a million USD a year. In an article he said he could not be a good employer, period. In another word he can't own a company.

I bet if he's given a coding test in a job interview he can do it correctly to satisfaction.

*depends on how you define "rich"

I will explain it to you.

Nurdin Norazan Services is my enterprise company as freelance programmer.

Penril Datability (M) Sdn Bhd is my full time job.

Technovault Solutions Sdn Bhd is my own company too with my 2 other partners, so I have share inside there.

Why we need full time job for right now because we don't have stable profit for incoming 6 months.

This post has been edited by alexa: Sep 25 2014, 10:23 AM

Ya hard times now.. Unless y go worldwide and cash basis income.gov project suc yo

How would you define rich? Because if we're talking financially, Linus Torvalds is nowhere near the richest man in tech. If anything, he is waaaaay underpaid for the contributions he made - he's only worth, what, $150 million? Roughly the same as the founder of Instagram.

What kind of salary you are looking for? PM me your resume/phone number and I'll arrange for an interview with my company.

My company don't normally do coding test during interview, we'll engage chosen applicants for a few months to see if they can fit in. Rather than testing the applicants' current skill, we'd like to see how he handle problems and his willingness to acquire more skills to solve the problems.

Programming is more about problem solving, not about showing off our coding skill.

Just asking... As you said, your company = means... You own the company? Or you are an employee there? Just asking by the way, friend...

I'm full time employee and part-owner. Started the company with a partner, later brought in another partner to get more fund for expansion. Now with more than 15 technical staff coming from Middle-East, Pakistan, Ireland, Poland, etc, but including me only 3 local programmers. I need more local programmers, preferably muslim males.

Area of expertise I'm looking for:

- IT/Network Engineer with unix background and basic python/perl skills
- Java Web Developers
- Web developer with strong Javascript skills
- Mobile (Android/IOS) developer
- Data scientists

how i wish you were my interviewer. The last interview i went was tough.
Like normal given a test to write code and test your database skill.
Then go to hiring manager/project manager. Ask lot of unrelated stuff which is out of job scope
and ask me to write code in front of him which is related to recursion.
That all fine but the hiring manager/project manager is kind of bossy kind and because he is very knowledgeable on his field
i think his ego is quite high while talking to me.

Consider yourself lucky to see their company culture during interview. These types of companies are not good to work for.

When you have arrogant programmers doing the hiring, this is the result.


Why would you wanna work for dickheads and have such people as colleagues?


These type of technical people have lousy people skills and they will guarantee the company they work in will not be able to hire anyone but equal dickheads like themselves.

These insecure techies are the reason why management wanna cut their pay or restrict it because they're unprofessional.

Is it better if the hiring is done entirely by HR staff with zero programming knowledge? Then they WILL have to rely on the tests, and have no idea if the tests are appropriate or not.

Last time i had this interview that i need to complete their given assignment in 3 days 2 night. After that, they called me to come to their office and complete the data structure test on whiteboard. If i succeed, there will be another test to come for work for 1 day(since i'm jobless back then) to test if i am suited with their work culture & environment.

dafuq!! Go to h**l with that i said

I actually think the "work for 1 day" method is a good one, under one condition - the candidate gets paid more than a full day's wage for it.

What do you mean by more than one day? One month? One week? Two days? 1.001 day?