Hey ngaisteve1 ...

Assuming we are only talking about genuine outward miracles of the Spirit.

I won't put too much on 1) and 2). There are some records from the church fathers who do mentioned of saints practising these gifts. Also, if you are in Los Angeles of the United States (1909) where, a number of black believers on Azusa Street experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit, you might beg to differ. It recovered the Pentecostal experience and ushered in modern Pentacostalism, Charismatic movements. There are also many testimonies.

But, something for you to consider: XD

1) When you read the book of Acts, consider the beginning, through the end .... what was the difference?

2) Paul's experience in Philippines, 2 Cor (of which one verse you quoted) and his advice with Timothy.

Happy pursuing!

This post has been edited by pehkay: Oct 10 2014, 10:11 PM

The Experience of Jacob

Esau

Esau was a careless person. Regarding the birthright, he seemed to say, "Jacob, do you want the birthright? It doesn't mean very much to me. If you give me something to eat, I'll give it to you." By this we see that Esau was rude and careless. The simple father, the ingenious mother, and the rude and careless brother caused Jacob to suffer and to be dealt with.

Esau despised and sold the birthright (25:30-34). The birthright, which God intends to give to His chosen people, includes three things: expressing God, representing God, and participating in the kingdom of God. We all have been chosen to express God in His image, represent Him with His dominion, and participate in His kingdom. The practical kingdom of God today is in the church life. By our second birth we all have obtained the birthright that we might express God in His image, represent Him in His dominion, and participate in His kingdom, both in the church today and in the kingdom in the future. Every regenerated person has this birthright. (We are the church of the Firstborn)

Due to his love of physical enjoyments, that is, his love for the world and the worldly enjoyments, Esau despised his birthright (Heb. 12:16-17). The seller of the birthright should not blame the buyer. Although Jacob was subtle in buying it, Esau was willing to sell it. The deal could not have been consummated by one party alone. Like Esau, many regenerated Christians have despised their birthright, loving the worldly enjoyments and not caring for the preciousness of God's birthright. Most of today's Christians are like this. They do not care to express God, to represent Him, nor to be in God's kingdom in the church life. Thus, when the kingdom comes, they will have no share in it. In their life today they have sold their birthright. Due to the enjoyment of the physical things, they have neglected and despised their birthright. If they cared for God's expression, representation, and kingdom, they would stay in the proper church life, which is God's kingdom today.

We should be unhappy with anything which frustrates us from expressing God or hinders us from representing Him, and we need to feel badly about anything that keeps us from the proper church life. If you are a Christian who is not practicing the expression of God and the representation of God in the practical kingdom of God today, then you are probably one who is despising your birthright. How we need to be careful. None of us should despise our birthright, giving it up for a little enjoyment of the physical things. Rather, we must despise all the things of today's world. Nothing is as precious as our birthright. Nothing is more valuable than expressing God, representing God, and participating in the kingdom of God. If we remain in the church life enjoying our birthright, we shall share in the coming kingdom where we shall express God and represent Him for His purpose. This is our birthright. May we all be today's Jacobs, not today's Esaus. We should praise the Lord for His selection and thank Him for His transformation. Yet, we must be warned to honor and respect our birthright.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Oct 13 2014, 08:41 AM

The Experience of Jacob

The Dream at Bethel - Wandering on His Lonesome Journey

Jacob had this dream while he was wandering on his lonesome journey (28:10). Jacob had been born into a very good family. He had an excellent father, a loving mother, and an interesting brother. Before the foundation of the world, God chose and predestinated him to have the birthright. In the story of Jacob we see God's intention and man's desire. God intended that Jacob be the first, and Jacob also desired to be the first, not the second. Thus, Jacob's desire corresponded to God's intention. This indicates that if we have a desire which corresponds with God's intention, then that desire must originate with God and not with ourselves. God intends to give us the birthright, and we also desire to be the first. This desire is not wrong; it is absolutely right. However, we must learn the lesson of not exercising our natural ability and our natural strength to fulfill God's intention and to satisfy our desire. Our natural strength and ability present a problem.

By reading the book of Genesis along with the whole Bible, we see that God intended to give the birthright to Jacob and that Jacob desired to get it. However, Jacob's natural strength had to be dealt with. Therefore, God sovereignly caused him to be the second. Although God had chosen him to be the first, God caused him to be born the second that Jacob might learn that his natural man was altogether unworthy and had to be cut off. God wants to give us the birthright, but our natural man is unqualified for it. We need to be transformed. Because God knew that Jacob needed transformation, He made him number two instead of number one. Without such a sovereign arrangement, Jacob's natural man and natural strength would never have been exposed. If God had put Jacob ahead of Esau, Jacob might have thought that he was very spiritual. He would not have struggled, because he would already have been the first. But God knew what was in Jacob and He put Esau first that Jacob's natural man might be exposed. Even while he was still in his mother's womb, Jacob struggled to come out first. This was God's arrangement.

Whatever happens to us is according to God's arrangement. Do not think that you are too small to be worthy of such a sovereign arrangement. God has a purpose for us—to give us the birthright. Since our natural man is not qualified for this, God must transform us. He does not do this simply by His creating hand, but by a long process which can only be carried out through all the circumstances of life. As we have seen, God used Isaac, Rebekah, and Esau to deal with Jacob. Although these three people never held a conference to discuss how to deal with Jacob, they nevertheless worked in a good coordination for this purpose, because everything was under God's sovereign hand. God arranged for Esau to be born first. He also arranged for Esau to be physically strong but not to be skillful in exercising his mind. Although he could not exercise his mind very well, he could exercise his physical strength to defeat Jacob. Furthermore, God arranged for Jacob to have a father who only knew to eat and enjoy. Even when Isaac realized that something was wrong when Jacob came to him disguised as Esau, he only cared for his eating. This was the reason that he had become blind. While Isaac was neutral, Rebekah, who was very clever, was partial, very much favoring her beloved son Jacob. These three persons worked together to cause Jacob to leave his loving mother and his father's home and to become a lonesome wanderer.

In ancient times it was a great thing to travel from Beer-sheba to where Laban lived. It was not a small matter for Jacob to leave his mother, father, and the environment in which he had been raised and to take such a long journey. Having become a lonesome wanderer, he must have suffered a great deal on this journey.

If you consider your past with the proper understanding, you will realize that your experience was exactly the same as Jacob's. Not many of us were saved when we were in a good home under our loving mother's care. Most of us were saved when we were lonesome and had been forced to suffer. Some had lost their mother, father, fiancée, wife, husband, or children and had become lonesome. In principle, at the time many of us were saved, we were suffering and lonesome. During the years in which we were under the care of our loving mother, the heavenly dream did not come. When did the first dream from heaven come to you? We all have had such a dream. The first dream of our spiritual life was our salvation. As we shall see, every spiritual vision is a dream. In what kind of situation were you when you had your first dream? As many of us can testify, our circumstances were not at all pleasant. Some were suffering, others were lonely, and still others were in an unpleasant environment. We had been forced to suffer, to wander, and to become lonesome. When, according to our consciousness, we had lost everything on earth and we were suffering and were lonely, the first heavenly dream came to us.

Sorry for the late reply. Never knew you replied the post.

Ya. We should focus on what the Bible says. Not sure what you meant by other church? Aren't we all of the same church?

1) When you read the book of Acts, consider the beginning, through the end .... what was the difference?

Well, you will realize that there is a dispensational transfer happening right in the book of Acts. The disciples are in a transition, since they were raised in the Old Testament dispensation, and they had been saturated with and even constituted of God’s Old Testament arrangement. As a result, it was very difficult for them to forsake those things in an absolute way to God's New Testament dispensation.

For example, at the beginning, they [the disciples] cast lots (a very Old Testament practice) yet the Spirit is tolerant of it and affirm it. They should be ones who lived by the leading of the Spirit.

Let us take the case of Peter as an illustration. Peter was chosen by the Lord and used by Him to carry out His New Testament economy after He Himself had accomplished the transfer. Peter, however, was saturated with and constituted of the things of the old dispensation. For this reason, when Peter saw the vision of the great sheet in which were four-footed animals, reptiles, and birds, and when a voice told him to rise up, slay, and eat, Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything common and unclean” (10:14). Knowing what the situation would be the Lord had sent an angel to Cornelius with a word concerning Peter. Furthermore, “while Peter was pondering concerning the vision, the Spirit said to him, Behold, three men are seeking you. But rise up and go down and go with them, doubting nothing, because I have sent them” (10:19-20). Peter loved the Lord, and eventually he went to the house of Cornelius. But this was a very difficult thing for Peter to do.

It is the same with miracles. There is a transition.

Chapters twenty-seven and twenty-eight of Acts do not present anything of doctrine. Rather, in these chapters we have a record of a man living Christ to the uttermost. Paul was imprisoned, bound in chains, and surrounded by guards. The sea was very stormy, and the sailing was rough. Furthermore, Paul was away from his homeland and from most of his friends. Although he was in such a difficult situation, he lived like a reigning king.

Here in Acts 27 and 28, Paul lived Christ in a situation that was altogether contrary to his culture and character. Many things were disappointing and discouraging, but Paul nevertheless lived a life of the highest standard. In Paul the wonderful, excellent, and mysterious God-man, who lived in the Gospels, continued to live through one of His many members. This was Jesus living again on earth in His divinely enriched humanity. Paul’s living, therefore, was a repetition of the living of Jesus.

This is the New Testament economy. Eventually, Paul's epistles (mostly written in prison) will develop that point, in which, we come to 2).

2) Paul's experience in Philippines, 2 Cor (of which one verse you quoted) and his advice with Timothy

(Lazy) This verse, Phil. 1:21 do encapsulate Paul's experience: "For to me to live is Christ". As always, even now Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether through life or through death” (Phil. 1:20).

With revelation we will see that the miracles were done to signify something deeper about life. Miracles are not the goal. The apostle Paul did many miracles, but he did not heal himself or his co-workers Timothy and Trophimus (Acts 19:11-12; 1 Tim. 5:23; 2 Tim. 4:20). Paul had a thorn in his flesh, which was a physical sickness (2 Cor. 12:7). After he asked the Lord three times that it would depart, the Lord said, “My grace is sufficient for you” (vv. 8-9). Grace is Christ Himself as life experienced by us.

It is significant that Paul does not tell Timothy to pursue power, gifts, miracles, and theological training. Rather, he charges Timothy to pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance, and meekness. Righteousness is a matter of being right with people before God according to God’s righteous and strict requirements.

In the second place, he should pursue godliness, the expression of God. In 4:7 Paul told Timothy to exercise himself unto godliness. Or a man of God. He should pursue righteousness and godliness; he should seek to be right with God and man in order to be a living expression of God in every way. This is to live a daily life which manifests God. God’s desire is to produce men of God by dispensing Himself into those who believe in Christ. A man of God is one who partakes of God’s life and nature (John 1:13; 2 Pet. 1:4) and thus becomes one with Him in His life and nature (1 Cor. 6:17) and thereby expresses Him. This corresponds to the mystery of godliness, which is God manifest in the flesh (1 Tim. 3:16).

This post has been edited by pehkay: Oct 15 2014, 09:39 AM

The Experience of Jacob

The dream - Gen 28

Genesis 28:12 says, "And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it." The center of this dream was a ladder. In this dream, did the ladder come down from heaven? No, it was already there on earth, and Jacob only needed to have a vision of it. Before he had the dream, he could not see the ladder. This means that everything necessary for receiving the birthright was there long before we were saved. The problem was that we could not see it. We had to have a vision in order to see it. Do not think that in his dream Jacob saw the ladder descending like Peter saw the sheet descending from heaven (Acts 10:9-16). Jacob did not see something coming down; he saw something which was already on earth. We are not told that the ladder reached the earth but that it was "set up on the earth" and that "the top of it reached to heaven." It was a ladder already existing on earth, not one descending from heaven.

What about the angels of God on the ladder? When I read about them in years past, I always thought that they were descending and ascending. But this verse says that the angels were ascending and descending. This means that the angels were there before Jacob had the dream. When he saw them, they were firstly ascending and then descending. If Jacob had seen the ladder coming down from heaven and the angels of God descending on it, his dream could have been taken as an answer to Jacob's desire or prayer. If Jacob had said, "O God, I'm lonely and want to see a vision from heaven," and a ladder had come down from heaven with angels descending on it, it would have been the answer to his prayer. But it was not at all like this. Without even praying, Jacob suddenly saw a ladder set up on the earth, the top of which reached to heaven. That the angels were ascending and descending on this ladder indicates that the dream was not an answer to Jacob's prayer but that it had been preplanned by God.

Do not think that your salvation was an answer to your prayers. Before you prayed, salvation was there waiting for you. It was not that you prayed and then suddenly salvation descended from heaven and fell upon you. No, before you were saved, salvation was waiting for you, but you had to be forced to leave your home and every man-made situation and be brought into a lonesome environment. Then your eyes were opened to see what was already there.

When was heaven opened to you for your salvation? Did you fast, pray, and cry to the Lord to open heaven to you and then suddenly see heaven opened? No, heaven has never been closed to God's chosen people. Although heaven is open to us, we still need to come to Bethel. We may not want to come here, but we have no choice. Like Jacob, we have been forced to come here. Many of us came into the church life because we had no choice. We were forced to come. You may say, "If I had a way, I would get out of the church life." But, thank the Lord, you do not have a way. Perhaps you have said, "I don't like the situation in the church life. I want to go away." But praise the Lord that this is impossible. We all have been forced to come to Bethel, the place where we see the already-existing ladder. There is no need for us to beg and wait for heaven to be opened. Once our eyes are opened, we see that the ladder is already here. This is the heavenly vision, the heavenly dream. In this dream we do not see a ladder descending; we see the ladder which is here already.

When we come to the New Testament, we see that Christ is the ladder which Jacob saw. In John 1:51 Jesus said to Nathanael, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you shall see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man." Christ is the One who brings heaven to earth and joins earth to heaven. Firstly, He brings heaven to earth and then He joins earth to heaven. Genesis 28:12 says that the ladder was "set up on the earth." According to our concept, Christ has gone away from the earth. But according to God's concept, Christ has been set up on earth, and no one can move Him. For nineteen and a half centuries, people have tried their best to shake this ladder, but they have been unable to do it. Do not think that Christ is coming down. No, He has already been set up on earth.

Amplified Bible is quite a not bad dynamic equivalent translation.

For example, 2 Cor. 3:18 - It renders the Greek words translated from glory to glory as "from one degree of glory to another."

The Experience of Jacob

Dreaming of a Ladder Which Typifies Christ

According to your deep, inner sense, where was Christ at the time you were saved—in heaven or on earth? According to your natural concept, He was in heaven. But according to your inner sense, Christ was directly in front of you, for He had been set up on earth. We have all experienced this. However, due to the influence of religion, we went along with our mental figuration instead of with our experience. In our experience of salvation, Christ was on earth.

Our Christ, who is the ladder bringing heaven to earth and joining earth to heaven, is now not only in heaven but also here on earth. Christ has been set up on earth and He is reaching into heaven for the purpose of coming to us and bringing us to Him. The angels are waiting to ascend. I believe that whenever a sinner receives the Lord Jesus and is saved, many angels ascend to heaven bearing the good news. Firstly, the angels gladly ascend to heaven and then they immediately descend with good things for the new believer. This traffic does not start from heaven; it starts from earth and goes to heaven and back to earth again. In like manner, whenever we repent and say, "Lord, I want to gain more of You and to be gained more by You," the angels, who truly are reporters, bring the news to heaven.

Christ, the sent One, the One who brings heaven to earth and joins earth to heaven, is here on earth right now. Many times in our experience we have the sense that Christ was there. As soon as we responded to Him, it seemed that some angels, moving faster than anything, ascended to heaven to report the good news. Many of us can testify that on some occasions we had such a wonderful time with the Lord that we had no words to describe what was happening. That was a strong proof that the angels were there ascending and descending. Then, as we continued to have this good time with the Lord, we went a little further with Him, and the angels happily ascended to heaven again to report something new and to descend immediately with more good things for us.

According to the proper vision, the angels of God are ascending and descending. It seem that there is no need for us to pray or fast. We simply need to be forced by God's hand to leave everything human and to come into an environment where we have a dream and our blind eyes are opened. Then we shall say, "Amen, Lord Jesus. The ladder is here, and the angels are ascending and descending on it." When we were saved, something like this happened to us. But we did not have the words to explain it. Today, Christ, the ladder, the center of the universe, is here. This ladder has been set up on the earth and is waiting for us to see and touch it again and again. Whenever we have a vision, we may not have the understanding or the words to describe it, but we sense that a ladder is before us. Whenever we enjoy a spiritual experience, we have the sense deep within that something either before us or inside us is joining us to heaven and that if we touch it, we touch heaven. This is Christ. Often, when we have a further experience in the church life, we smile and say, "Why didn't I see this before? How stupid I was! Something has been set up on earth that reaches to heaven, and when I touch it, it brings me and joins me to heaven." This is the ladder.

Jacob's dream at Bethel was not of him; it was absolutely of God. Jacob had lost everything and was fully disappointed. He had become a hopeless and homeless case. But, much to his surprise, in the midst of his disappointment, the dream came. What is this dream? It is simply a vision, a seeing. In our experience, the ladder was there, but we did not see it. Now that we have the sight, we see the ladder which was there all the time. This is the significance of Jacob's dream.

Every spiritual experience is a dream. Coming into the church life is a dream. Knowing the practicality of the church is also a dream. Many times we have said, "My, this experience is so good that it must be a dream. What a dream has come to me!" The more dreams we have, the better, for the more dreams we have, the more we touch and enjoy the ladder.

The center of every spiritual dream is Christ as the ladder, as the One who brings heaven to earth and joins earth to heaven. Whenever we sense deep within that we have been brought into heaven and have been joined to and made one with heaven, and that heaven has been made one with us, that is an experience of Christ. We should forget about trying to overcome sin and weaknesses. The proper experience in life is to have a dream of Christ as the heavenly ladder which has been set up on earth and which brings us into heaven. Do not try to overcome sin, nor to conquer your weakness. When you touch this ladder, you will be in heaven, heaven will be yours, and there will be much traffic between earth and heaven and between heaven and earth. You will have whatever you need, and every negative thing will be under your feet. This is the experience of Christ as the heavenly ladder.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Oct 21 2014, 08:18 AM

The Experience of Jacob

The DREAM - part 1

Genesis 28:10-22 is the most crucial word in the revelation of God. If we know the Bible, we shall realize that here there is a radical turn, a new start, in the divine revelation. In the first twenty-seven chapters of Genesis, the term the house of God (Bethel in Hebrew) is not used. But in this chapter, the matter of God's house is revealed. The house of God is not merely a place; it is a living composition of living people. Where these people are, there the house of God is also. Hence, it does not depend upon the place but upon the people. If the people move, then the place where they once were is no longer God's house. How can a place be called the house of God? Only because the real, living house of God, a living composition of living people, is there.

Genesis 1:26 says that man was made in God's own image. This is wonderful. Man is man; he is not God. Nevertheless, he has God's image. In other words, man looks like God. It is correct to say this. If anyone has your image, he surely looks like you. It is very significant that God made man in His own image.

In 2:7 we see that the man who was made in God's image was constituted with dust. Do you realize that you were made with dust? No one is an exception. We were not made with gold, diamond, or steel; we all were made with dust. Is dust precious? Would you put a handful of dust into your pocket and keep it? No one would do this. Nevertheless, we were made out of dust. Romans 9:21 reveals that we are clay vessels. Dust and clay are nearly the same. When water is added to dust, the dust becomes clay. According to our material constitution, we are not precious.

In chapter twenty-eight the term changes from dust to stone. The stone in this chapter becomes the rest for the man of dust (v. 11), for the stone now holds the dust. It is quite meaningful that Jacob, a man of dust, rested upon a stone. Consider the picture in chapter twenty-eight. Here we see a tired, lonesome, disappointed, dusty man, a man who was not certain of his future. Needing some rest as the sun was going down, "he took one of the stones of that place, and made it his pillow, and lay down in that place to sleep" (v. 11, Heb.). The way to know the Bible is by the Bible. If we only read Genesis 28, we shall not know what it means. But when we read the whole Bible with the heavenly light, we see the meaning of the stone in this chapter. When Peter first came to the Lord, the Lord changed his name saying, "You are Simon the son of John; you shall be called Cephas (which translated means a stone)" (John 1:42). Approximately three years after this first meeting with the Lord, Peter, responding to a question asked by the Lord, said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matt. 16:16). Then the Lord Jesus said to him, "I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church" (Matt. 16:18). The Lord seemed to be saying, "Peter, do you remember that on the first day you came to Me I gave you the name stone? This should not merely be a name—it must be a fact. Peter, you are a stone. I shall build My church upon this rock." Thus, Matthew 16:18 reveals that the stone is for the building of the church.

What is the church? First Timothy 3:15 says that the church is the house of the living God. Ultimately, in eternity, the house of the living God will be the New Jerusalem. In Revelation 21 we see that the New Jerusalem is not built with clay or dust but with precious stones. Speaking of the New Jerusalem, Revelation 21:11 says, "Her light was like a most precious stone, as a jasper stone, clear as crystal."

We need to look at the Bible with a bird's-eye view. In Genesis 1 and 2 we see that although man was made in the image of God, he was constituted with dust. While the image of God is for God's expression, dust certainly is not suitable for the expression of God. Hence, there is the need for transformation. Transformation is not merely a change in form; it is also a change in nature, for the word transformation denotes a metabolic change. We need to have a change in nature that our nature and appearance might no longer be that of dust. In Genesis 2 man is dusty, but in Revelation 21 he is precious stone. In eternity, there will be no need for cleaning. While we are on this dusty earth, we must clean every day. But because there will be no dust in the New Jerusalem, there will be no need to clean it. All the dust will be transformed into precious stones.

.... dust -> stone -> precious stone

Lol, you haven't heard there was one in Philippines that quote verses ... XD and can debate and discuss.

Sorry, I meant a demon possession case when the person being possessed can debate and discuss Bible verses.

Yeah, but the most interesting testimony I heard was when a brother visited this case (it was referred by a group of brothers there) ....

He knew Jessie Penn Lewis's testimony or that she picked up the principle from the Brethren, demon extremely hated the fact, "that Christ came in the flesh".

So he began to ask the demon on Christ coming in the flesh and asking it to declare it.

That really revealed its true face, and the person possessed, changed from a "gentlemen-tally" personae into a violent one .... Though I can't remember how it was cast out.

Anyway, an interesting story.

That is very normal and healthy.

Does it make you less of a Christian if you don't practice it? Definitely no.

But I will digress if I try to explain. Just that, you have to see its proper place and need. I do believe in it and do no oppose it. Neither do I encourage it.

A few things:

1) It can be compared to opium or morphine. Medical doctors know that opium and morphine can be useful in dealing with certain kinds of pain or illnesses, but the dosage has to be limited and the use restricted.

2) Second, for the long run, tongue-speaking does not help believers to grow in life. On the contrary, addiction to tongue-speaking may lead to the indulgence of lust.

3) Third, those who have become addicted to tongue-speaking have no ear to hear the word of the cross and the deeper things concerning Christ. They are not interested in how the cross of Christ deals with the flesh and the self. They do not care for such a sober word of righteousness.

Huh? You sure you read correctly? I was only sharing a real story based on what Luffy mentioned of his/her friend.

How can you even read it like this?

Haha .... that could be one of the reason. Though currently, I cannot distinctly remember what the brother mentioned. Anyway.

It got your attention

The indulgence in lust?

Lol .... I mentioned "may" because the incident has happens in the history of Pentecostal. The real experience of tongue speaking do get people into ecstasy.

At least I need to balance it out to say that some have testified that speaking in tongues stirred something within them to seek after Christ. This is a proper result of tongue-speaking.

But those who become addicted to tongue-speaking care only for their ecstasy. They do not care for sobriety. As a result, there are many cases of fornication among them.

There was a big case in the past in China, where a group of people practices this till they declared that they is no longer male or female. They began to dwell together, which eventually, lead to fornication.

Biblically, I think it was Saul.

"He stripped off his garments, and he too prophesied in Samuel’s presence. He lay naked all that day and all that night. This is why people say, “Is Saul also among the prophets?”

When the Spirit in the Old Testament poured on fallen flesh, there is this kind of experience.

So, those who practice this, need to realize their fallen flesh is still as active as ever.

P.S. IMHO a real spiritual and powerful Christian is one who the Lord has deal with his flesh. This requires the inner life experience of Christ. The outward outpouring of the Spirit is not very helpful without the inward essential Spirit within the believers.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Oct 21 2014, 08:27 PM

True. This is why today's tongue speaking is generally not genuine. The real one brings you to be beside yourself (acts 2 - disciples were perceived to be drunk)

It is only perhaps useful for private experience. But, corporately, it is not very profitable. Also, if the goal is not Christ and the church, it is very damaging.

Anyway, that's enough of this from me.

None taken actually.

It's true that I don't practice tongue speaking but to be filled outwardly in the Spirit for power, yes, I occasionally experience this; Only when one day you see me speaking in Russian while being clothed with the Spirit, then you know I speak in tongue

Regarding your point, one is watered within by the flowing river of water of the life [Spirit] is when one is experiences the the Spirit in the word [pneuma]. Yet, this is subject to one's seeing of the inward revelation and his or her growth in life. In other words, I am "watered" and filled within when I saw the matter of the Jacob's experiences when presented to me. To others, it is just mere doctrine.

So, what touches you depends on your stage of the experience of life.

It is also not that I don't pray for physical things like housing, shelter .... but one day you will come to realize, asking all these things, what is it for? For your need? What is a place of stay for? How is finding a place to stay can correspond to what God wants to gain?

If is for your need. It's ok. We can tell the Lord that is what I need. I need this for myself. That is where our experience is. It's is OK We are different only when we are different. Otherwise it is hypocrisy.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Oct 21 2014, 10:48 PM

What are your thoughts?

At least the context of the chapter, to sin willfully here means to abandon one's own assembling together with the church (v25). The Hebrew believers had been instructed to abandon Judaism and remain under the new covenant. If they had still returned to Judaism, they would have abandoned their own assembling with the church. This would have constituted a willful sin in the eyes of God, in that it would have been committed after they had received the knowledge of the truth, after they had come to know that God had abandoned Judaism, which was formed according to the old covenant, and had initiated the new and living way of contacting God according to the new covenant.