It will be really hard to justify and be consistent with it throughout the Scripture because the Lord not only spoke in chapter 13. Also, later I will show why chapter 13 is a turning point to the Gentiles.

To be fair, let just consider "weeping and gnashing" and they are used 6x in Matthew.

It is used twice concerning the perdition of the false believers (13:42) and the evil heathen (13:50). Matthew 13:42 concerns the tares, the false believers who will be cast into the furnace of fire. The furnace of fire is not the outer darkness, but the lake of fire. Matthew 13:50 concerns the evil Gentiles, the corrupt fish that are equivalent to the goats in chapter twenty-five. They also will be cast into the furnace of fire. Thus, those who perish in eternal fire will weep and gnash their teeth. This is very clear for unbelievers because of the Lord used "furnace of fire". But the other 4 ... the Lord didn't use furnace of fire.

Matthew 8:12 says, “But the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.” It is very hard to justify sons of the kingdom as non believers. Also, Matt 5:48 - "You therefore shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" really shows who are the audience.

Matthew 22:13 says, “Then the king said to the servants, Bind his feet and hands, and cast him out into the outer darkness; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.” This refers to the one who did not have a wedding garment. This, of course, does not refer to an unbeliever, but to a saved one. The King is preparing a wedding feast for His son.

This phrase is used two other times, in 24:51 and in 25:30. According to 24:51, the evil slave will be cut off from the Lord’s presence and have his portion with the hypocrites where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The sister verse, 25:30, says that the slothful slave will be cast out into the outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. By reading all these verses, we see that the false believers, the tares, and the evil Gentiles will be cast into the furnace of fire, the lake of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. However, the defeated believers, such as the sons of the kingdom in chapter eight, those without the wedding garment in chapter twenty-two, and the unfaithful slave in chapters twenty-four and twenty-five, will be cast out into the outer darkness. There, in the outer darkness, they will suffer weeping and gnashing of teeth. This does not refer to eternal perdition, but to dispensational punishment. In addition to salvation, there is still the matter of the reward and punishment that will be rendered during the coming kingdom age. If we are faithful to the Lord, we shall be rewarded during the next age. But if we are not faithful to Him, we shall receive punishment.

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I think the two out three main portions in Matthew is very clear were given to believers: 5-8 (inward reality of the kingdom) and 24-25 (manifestation of the kingdom). The reality of the kingdom was revealed on a mountain, the appearance of the kingdom (chapter 13) was revealed by the seashore, and the manifestation of the kingdom was spoken of in prophecy also from a mountain.

(Getting too long - at least this verse should be clear it was spoken to the disciples)
Matt 24:3 - And as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, Tell us, When will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming and of the consummation of the age?

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Matthew 13:1 says, “On that day Jesus, going out of the house, sat beside the sea.” At the end of chapter twelve, the heavenly King, having been fully rejected by the Jewish leaders, made a break with them. On that day He went out of the house to sit beside the sea. This is very significant. The house signifies the house of Israel (10:6), and the sea signifies the Gentile world (Dan. 7:3, 17; Rev. 17:15). The King’s going out of the house to sit beside the sea signifies that after His break with the Jews, He forsook the house of Israel and turned to the Gentiles. It was after this that, on the seashore, He gave the parables concerning the mysteries of the kingdom. This signifies that the mysteries of the kingdom were revealed in the church. Hence, all the parables in this chapter were spoken to His disciples, not to the Jews.

It was quite interesting that even Dr. Scofield point it out that after chapter twelve, due to the unbelief of Israel, the kingdom had been suspended. Of course this is not correct but my point was there is a shift (that he even notice it). He did not see that, instead of being suspended, the kingdom was given over to another people.

The first three words of chapter thirteen, “On that day,” join this chapter to chapter twelve, just as the words, “At that time,” connect chapter twelve to chapter eleven. The words, “On that day,” refer to the day that the Lord declared that He had forsaken Israel, the day He cut off Israel and grafted in the Gentile believers. On that day He went out of the house, signifying the house of Israel, to the sea, signifying the Gentile world. This move from the house to the sea corresponded to His declaration. He had declared that He no longer had anything to do with His natural relatives but that He had turned to the believing Gentiles.

Yes, like you mentioned, the Lord spoke it parables so that the opposing Jews won't understand but in the same verses, "And He answered and said to them, Because to you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of the heavens, but to them it has not been given.”

16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.

17 For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men have desired to perceive the things that you see, and have not perceived them, and to hear the things that you hear, and have not heard them.

In other words, the disciples understood and perceive.

The first four parables in Matthew 13 provide a clear picture of so-called Christianity [very negative - won't go there]. After giving forth these parables, the Lord privately spoke to His disciples the parables of the treasure hidden in the field and the pearl from the sea.

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The thought of it have to consistent with Matt 16 on losing the soul life too where the Lord reveal who He is including the first time, the revelation of the church. What does it mean here? Because it was definitely spoken to His disciples only.

Then, Paul's word on "being saved through fire" ...

And many more verses in Hebrews.

So, the framework of interpretation have to be really consistent ... ... and so I am very reluctant ...

Just being thorough XD .... try to read .... I think we are all being much influenced by instant gratification ... too much info overload

Actually I did try to answer but ... as I go through your quotes ... <sigh>. Not sure if comprehension problem ...


1) Matthew 5:14 You are the light of the world. It is impossible for a city situated upon a mountain to be hidden.
Clearly it is referring to believers lor. You are the lamp shinning (a believer) out in your living.

2) Deja vu on your " lamps as believers because Jesus states that the Bridegroom did not know them"

https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?act=ST&f...post&p=68868677

Didn't you made similar statement and can't come up with a reason ... that the Lord called them worker's of lawlessness and do not know them (The target audience are believers - Why were we be workers of the Lord if we aren't?)

3) "The passage on the wise and foolish is most likely to refer to people who did not stay the course. They could have some knowledge of Christianity and could even be believers at one point of time but then they decided to not stay on the path. By the time Christ comes, it would be too late. Jesus was telling us that we should always stay on the course."

Isn't this arminism? Then God's salvation is not effective?

4) Laodicea mentioned that we need to pay a price .... which corresponding to the virgin buying oil to be an overcomer. Like you mentioned ... they are believers

What broke the camel's back was probably 2) ... lol

I stop because it doesn't benefit you nor others. If you have a all-surpassing framework that can explain all the verses I brought up. Please do so that I can be enlightened.


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At the end, it was never about initial salvation. That is clear that we are saved by faith. We are saved eternally. The sense of security was never about our eternal salvation.

Then, please explain one verse (for now) in James 2 that says that Abraham was justified by works? Definitely this is not initial salvation.

Whoah ... that statement will be very "dangerous" .... mid-dispensationlist guys will argues for this and they are considered very ... er... at the edge of Christianity. We won't want to go there

Then we can freely say A BIG CHUNK of Matthew is not for us believers.


That's right, this is why salvation is we received Christ into us to be our righteousness, both objectively and subjectively. Isn't that what you like about Grace. Subjectively, we experience Christ's righteousness day by day. Aren't the saved Jews believers?

And yes, Gal 4:6 did says that we are sons!

So then you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, an heir also through God. This is why Gal 5 charges us to walk by the Spirit. Also, Gal 3:3 ... if we are perfected by the law; They lived according to law.

And Paul charges them to live "The righteous one shall have life and live by faith'';"

I think it's the same misunderstanding that it is never about initial salvation. And He did came as God of love and grace. But He also is the God of righteousness.

I am not minimizing the wonderful salvation God brought to the Prostitute. But He also says, "Go and sin no more" implies that there is a living, a condition to enjoy His salvation further.

The most important is not to confuse "work" in the on-going salvation as something apart from the operation of the Triune God. Which is why most people cringe .... because that is the thought in their mind. The truth is twofold ... I may have repeat too many times .... but still ....

This post has been edited by pehkay: Oct 6 2014, 01:24 PM

But verse Matthew 26:1 says, "And when Jesus finished all these words, He said to His disciples," ... most people agreed that this is another section already.

Re: Matt 16 : So, isn't losing it in the next age because we enjoy it this age .... not a warning? punishment . Yeah, isn't restore a reward? We don't want to split terms ... I could say Strong's concordance also have it as recompense, render, requite, restore, reward, sell. Let us not go there.

I think we will be really splitting hairs ... of whether Jews were there or not ..... But the disciples were there too.

Also, I do agree probably the Jews were there at Matthew 13:2 .... but the audience primarily of His disciples and the Gentiles. Also I don't think Matthew 13 is in issue here because I made it clear that all "gnashing of teeth" ... both portions are referring to false believers. What are we back here for?

I am starting to lose myself in the details ... what the premise again?

Hmmm ... I think it was clear that it is not about initial salvation. And why the view that God uses "fear and punishment"?

Why not view as God's COMPLETE salvation to deify man in His life and nature but not in the Godhead? Why not view as we are continually enjoying grace to be constituted with the Triune God for His expression.

As a father, don't we want our children to mature? We don't have to worry about fear and punishment. As we go on positively, we trust that the Lord's grace will train us.

1 Pet 5:10 But the God of all grace, He who has called you into His eternal glory in Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a little while, will Himself perfect, establish, strengthen, and ground you.

Haha ... that ... is it not clear that it is not about redemption of our sins? It is not about the spiritual fact. It's an eternal fact beyond time and space.

Fact, faith and experience.

Are we applying the spiritual eternal fact to our daily experience? It's the faith to apply the spiritual fact to become our experience.

Today, we are God’s children through regeneration. But how are we progressing? Are we being sanctified and transformed every day? Are we growing in life? Are we serving Him as a faithful servant in the church life? So this is why we ... work out our salvation.

"So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but now much rather in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;"

Anyway .... that's that ... I should stop for now

Haha ... no conclusion lar.

We all live faithfully according to the vision of the truth that we see. It is between us and God.

Not that I am here to convince anyone ... but just to show that God's salvation is SO MUCH MORE if someone is open to hear more.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Oct 6 2014, 02:41 PM

Hehe ... the working out is never apart from God's operation to live out Christ (Phil 1:21) ... Here is the twofoldness displayed ... which I mentioned before.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Oct 6 2014, 03:04 PM

The Experience of Jacob

Jacob was chosen before his birth, even before the foundation of the world (25:22-23; Rom. 9:11; Eph. 1:4). We, like Jacob, were also chosen before we were born. Our being chosen by God was according to His foreknowledge (1 Pet. 1:2; Rom. 8:29).

Not of His Own Strife

Jacob was not chosen by God of his own strife (25:22-23, 26). Likewise, our being chosen is not according to our struggling. Jacob was somewhat foolish. Of course, he did not have the knowledge that we have. If he had known that he had been chosen, he would have had no need to struggle and could have told Esau, "Esau, you may go out first. No matter who gets out first, I have been chosen. It does not matter how fast you are or how slow I am. The birthright is mine because I have been chosen." But because Jacob did not have this revelation, he struggled.

Not of His Own Works

Romans 9:11, referring to Jacob and Esau, says, "The children not yet being born, nor having done anything good or bad, (that the purpose of God according to selection might remain, not of works, but of Him who calls)." In this verse we see that Jacob's being chosen was not of his own works. Before the children had done neither good nor bad, God had told Rebekah, the mother, that the "greater shall serve the less" (Rom. 9:12). This proves that God's selection does not depend upon our works. Whether we are good or bad means nothing.

Of God Who Calls

Romans 9:13 says, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." His selection does not depend on us; it is absolutely up to Him. It is not of our struggle or works, "but of Him who calls." We are not the Creator—He is.

Of God's Mercy

God's selection is also of God's mercy (Rom. 9:14-16). God said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion" (Rom. 9:15). We all are the objects of God's mercy. How we thank Him that He has had mercy on us! "It is not of the one who wills, nor of the one who runs, but of God, the One who shows mercy" (Rom. 9:16).

Of God's Grace

God's selection is also of His grace (Rom. 11:5). It is somewhat difficult to understand mercy and grace as they are related to God's selection. Although we were selected and foreknown by God in eternity past, when God came to call us, we were in a pitiful situation, a situation which required God's mercy.

The enemy, the Devil, might have said to God, "Look at this one who is Your selection. How pitiful he is!" Then God might have said to Satan, "Satan, don't you realize that this is a very good opportunity for Me to show My mercy? Without such a pitiful person, how could I show My mercy? If everyone were perfect and up to your standard, I would have no one on whom to show mercy. Satan, this chosen one is the right one to be the object of My mercy." What about grace? As we have seen, grace is something of God wrought into our being. Although we were so pitiful, God did not reject us. Rather, regardless of Satan's accusations, He had mercy on us. God might have said to Satan, "Satan, I shall not only show mercy to My chosen ones, but I shall work Myself into them." When God is wrought into our being, that is grace. We are not only the objects of God's mercy; we are also the objects of His grace. We are under God's mercy, and His grace is within us.

The Experience of Jacob

Being Dealt With

In Jacob we do not see God's calling or justification; neither do we see the enjoyment of grace. Rather, we see how he was dealt with by God (25:19—32:21). Even when Jacob was in his mother's womb, God dealt with him. Throughout his life he was constantly under God's dealing. God's dealing was for his transformation. Jacob was born a supplanter, a heel holder. God's intention, however, was to have a prince of God. How could such a supplanter become a prince of God? Only by transformation. It is easy to change a material building, but it is difficult to change a supplanter into a prince of God. This cannot be done overnight; it takes a lifetime. Because Jacob represents the aspect of transformation, he has such a long biography.

In 25:19-34; 27:1-46; and 28:1-5, we see four persons— Jacob, Esau, Isaac, and Rebekah—each of whom is distinct from the others. Although Jacob and Esau were twins, they were absolutely different from one another. "Esau was a skillful hunter, a man of the field; and Jacob was a quiet man, dwelling in tents" (25:27, Heb.). Jacob was quiet, subtle, and crafty, and Esau was wild, rude, and physically strong. As Jacob and Esau were fighting in their mother's womb, Esau won because of his strength. While Jacob was struggling to get out first, Esau seemed to say, "What are you doing? Let me go first." Jacob was crafty in the mind, and Esau was strong in the body. When Esau learned that Jacob had cheated him, he threatened to kill him. Esau seemed to be saying, "Jacob, you have supplanted me. My mind cannot defeat your mind, but one day I will kill you." In this we see that Jacob and Esau were absolutely different.

Isaac and Rebekah were also different from one another. Rebekah was clever, ingenious, skillful, and capable of manipulating the whole family. She both developed Jacob's craftiness and directed her husband. Isaac was fully under Rebekah's manipulation. As a result of her manipulation, both Esau and Isaac were supplanted. They were not only supplanted by Jacob but also by Rebekah. When Isaac sent Jacob away, he might have thought that he initiated it. Actually, this was initiated by Rebekah. After she had spoken a few words to Isaac, he sent Jacob away to Laban (28:1-5). Rebekah manipulated Isaac in this matter.

Isaac, Rebekah, and Esau worked together for Jacob's good. God used the three of them to transform Jacob. In this we see that all things work together for the good of those who are called by God (Rom. 8:28). Later we shall see that Laban as well as Jacob's wives, maids, sons, and daughter were used by God to transform him. Every circumstance, situation, and person found in the record of Jacob's life was used to transform this supplanter into a prince of God.

We cannot find a story telling us as much about transformation as the story of Jacob does. Jacob had been chosen and predestinated. God's purpose with this chosen one was to transform him into a prince of God. He prefers to transform supplanters like Jacob. What kind of person are you? Are you good, straight, and honest, or are you a Jacob? We all, are Jacobs. Have you not supplanted others? Sisters, you have probably supplanted your mother, husband, and children. Some fathers-in-law have supplanted their sons-in-law, and some uncles have supplanted their nephews. Do not think that you are so good. No, I think of myself as a Jacob. Knowing that we are Jacobs should be an encouragement to us. Do not say, "Oh, I'm so bad and low. I'm not a high-level person." If you are like this, praise the Lord. You are the right person to know God's mercy and grace.

If we had made the choice, probably all of us would have chosen Esau instead of Jacob. Comparatively speaking, Esau was better than Jacob. He never cheated or supplanted anyone. But God did not choose Esau; He chose Jacob. Everyone who has been chosen by God is a naughty one. While Abraham is the example of justification by faith, Jacob is the example of being chosen. Have you been chosen? Then you must be a Jacob, because God only chooses Jacobs. God is God, and we must worship Him as God. He has sovereignly chosen Jacob, the one who was such a supplanter.

I think for his salvation XD

Every morning can say "O Lord Jesus, I love You" a few times xD

Try it

On?

And that is important because? <puzzled>

Let people know what? That I call on the Lord in the church meetings?

I don't remember you asking me whether I received help from Watchman Nee or follow his teaching?. I think I did posted some quotes from him.

Isn't there a lot of seeking Christians who read his books?

I teach "special"? On encouraging people to pray to love the Lord?

You can wiki it and google it.

The "Normal Christian life" is a classic.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Oct 9 2014, 07:00 PM

Haha .... purgatory ....

It might be that reason perhaps [misunderstood]... though historically, it was the Brethren who teaches that dispensationally there is a reward of the kingdom.

Today there are at least four different theologies—secular theology, reformed theology, fundamental theology, and Brethren theology. Among these, the Brethren theology is the best. In the United States, the two top seminaries are Dallas Theological Seminary and the Moody Bible Institute. These two use the top theology, being based mostly upon Brethren theology. When Dr. Scofield was working in Dallas, he was very close to Dallas Theological Seminary, and his writings nearly dominate the theology of Dallas Seminary. Scofield’s reference Bible was mainly based upon Brethren theology

This post has been edited by pehkay: Oct 9 2014, 07:16 PM

... Don't get me started on the lines of truth recovered since Martin Luther

The Experience of Jacob

Being Born the Second

God sovereignly arranged the environment and circumstances pertaining to Jacob's life. When Jacob and Esau were in their mother's womb, they fought over who would be born first (25:22-26). Jacob was subtle and seemed to be saying, "We are both in the womb. Whoever gets out first will be the firstborn and have the birthright. I must not lose the birthright." Thus, Jacob began to fight. Under God's sovereignty, Jacob had a smart mind, but he did not have much physical strength. Esau, on the contrary, was not so intelligent, but he was physically strong and defeated his brother, not allowing him to be born first. Although Esau suffered the cheating of Jacob's mind, Jacob was defeated by Esau's strength. If Jacob had had both a smart mind and great physical strength, Esau could not have done anything and Jacob could have had whatever he wanted. But God was very wise and seemed to say, "Jacob, I'll let you have a smart mind, but I will not give you much physical strength. Your brother may be dull, but I shall make him stronger than you. You will have a smart mind, and he will have a strong body." Thus, even before he was born, Jacob was defeated by Esau and was born the second.

Although Jacob was defeated, he would not admit that he had been defeated. Instead, he held on to Esau's heel (25:26), indicating that he refused to admit defeat. The same is true with us. Many times we are defeated by our Esau, but we do not admit it and still hold on to his heel. Sometimes the sisters are defeated by their husbands, but, refusing to admit defeat, they hold on to the husband's heel. At other times, the husbands are defeated by their wives and they become the heel holders. Perhaps even today you have had such an experience. We all are Jacobs. God has chosen us, and we are under His dealing hand.

In the church life, one day you will became very clear concerning God's dealing hand. We will came to realize that one of the elders was my Esau, that another was my Isaac, that still another was my Rebekah, and that I was their Jacob. I needed all of them. God can never be wrong. All the co-workers, elders, brothers and sisters whom God has given us have always been our opposite. For example, when I preferred to have a careful person, God did not give me one. But every dealing has been a profit to me. Every incident has helped to transform me a little more. When certain things happened, I was unhappy with all the dear Isaacs, Rebekahs, and Esaus. But deep in my heart I could say, "Praise the Lord. I am thankful for everyone and everything."

It was no accident that Jacob was born to Isaac and Rebekah and that Esau was his brother. All this was prearranged by the Father for Jacob's transformation. From the time he was in his mother's womb, Jacob needed one to be physically stronger than he was. We often say that twins are the same. But if Jacob and Esau had been the same, Jacob could never have been dealt with. Jacob was a quiet man who always exercised his mind, and Esau was a hunter who exercised his physical strength. Thus, Esau was exactly what Jacob needed.

Out of a hundred married people, probably not one husband would say that he is satisfied with his wife, and probably not one wife would say that she is satisfied with her husband. Before we were married, we all had a dream about married life. Eventually, our marriage turned out to be the opposite of our dream. But whatever our husband or wife is like, he or she is God's gift to us and is exactly what we need. Throughout my whole life I have never seen a person whose second marriage, after remarrying following a divorce, was better than the first. Rebekah was brought to Isaac and she became his wife. Whether she was good or bad, she was Isaac's destiny.