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TSCritical_Fallacy
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Dec 13 2013, 10:01 PM
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∫nnộvisεr
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QUOTE(maximR @ Dec 13 2013, 09:54 PM) Yes , an equation which combines i , pi , e , 1 and 0 !  Very beautiful equation . Can you name that beautiful equation? QUOTE(RED-HAIR-SHANKS @ Dec 13 2013, 09:55 PM) Hmmm  I kinda fathom the question, but I have no idea on how to show that it's rational or not. A very tricky one I'd say....  Hint: See Post #226 on Page 12.
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maximR
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Dec 13 2013, 10:04 PM
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QUOTE(Critical_Fallacy @ Dec 13 2013, 10:01 PM) Can you name that beautiful equation? Hint: See Post #226 on Page 12.  Euler's Identity , as Sal Khan of KhanAcademy put it , ' If this doesn't blow your mind , you have no emotion . ' , in his long derivation of this identity . I think it involves some series but I can't recall .
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RED-HAIR-SHANKS
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Dec 13 2013, 10:08 PM
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QUOTE(maximR @ Dec 13 2013, 09:57 PM) Try a simpler one then : Proof , or disproof that the product of two irrational numbers results in a rational number . I'm not so sure about this, but I might give it a try. We know that √2 is irrational. But if we multiply √2 with √2: √2 x √2 = 2/1 Hence, 2 in this case, is rational.
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v1n0d
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Dec 13 2013, 10:13 PM
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QUOTE(maximR @ Dec 13 2013, 09:54 PM) Yes , an equation which combines i , pi , e , 1 and 0 !  Very beautiful equation . I would appreciate it if you could provide tutorials on Logic . https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hpho...650586348_n.jpgThe link will bring you to a page of 2013 Further Mathematics STPM Repeat Paper . In Q1 , it asks for the validity of propositions , but in my book , it says that a proposition and an argument are two different things . A proposition can be true or false , valid and invalid are incorrect terms to refer to propositions . I know how to do (a) and (b) , but what about the conclusion ? The conclusion is that for every x∈R, ∃ an inverse y∈R ∋x+y=0. Edit: Corrected! Thanks maximRThis post has been edited by v1n0d: Dec 13 2013, 10:36 PM
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maximR
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Dec 13 2013, 10:15 PM
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QUOTE(Critical_Fallacy @ Dec 13 2013, 10:01 PM) Can you name that beautiful equation? Hint: See Post #226 on Page 12.  Wait , I think I see something . Suppose that (√2)^(√2) is irrational . Let (√2)^(√2) = a , where a is an irrational number . Raising the powers of both sides by √2 , we have (√2)^2 = a^(√2) ; a^(√2) = 2 ( a is irrational , √2 is also irrational but 2 is rational ) . Call me a nerd , but this is much more exciting than a lot of things I've seen !
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v1n0d
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Dec 13 2013, 10:15 PM
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QUOTE(RED-HAIR-SHANKS @ Dec 13 2013, 09:55 PM) Hmmm  I kinda fathom the question, but I have no idea on how to show that it's rational or not. A very tricky one I'd say....  The solution makes use of the Gelfond-Schneider theorem.  QUOTE(maximR @ Dec 13 2013, 10:15 PM) Wait , I think I see something . Suppose that (√2)^(√2) is irrational . Let (√2)^(√2) = a , where a is an irrational number . Raising the powers of both sides by √2 , we have (√2)^2 = a^(√2) ; a^(√2) = 2 ( a is irrational , √2 is also irrational but 2 is rational ) . Call me a nerd , but this is much more exciting than a lot of things I've seen ! Correct, but what happens when a≠b? This post has been edited by v1n0d: Dec 13 2013, 10:16 PM
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maximR
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Dec 13 2013, 10:17 PM
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QUOTE(v1n0d @ Dec 13 2013, 10:15 PM) The solution makes use of the Gelfond-Schneider theorem.  Correct, but what happens when a≠b? Can the working that I've shown be accepted ? It seems a bit simple and doesn't touch on anything about transcendental numbers .
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maximR
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Dec 13 2013, 10:18 PM
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QUOTE(v1n0d @ Dec 13 2013, 10:15 PM) The solution makes use of the Gelfond-Schneider theorem.  Correct, but what happens when a≠b? Didn't think of that . Is there a general proof ?
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maximR
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Dec 13 2013, 10:20 PM
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QUOTE(RED-HAIR-SHANKS @ Dec 13 2013, 10:08 PM) I'm not so sure about this, but I might give it a try. We know that √2 is irrational. But if we multiply √2 with √2: √2 x √2 = 2/1 Hence, 2 in this case, is rational. What about a general proof ?
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maximR
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Dec 13 2013, 10:23 PM
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QUOTE(v1n0d @ Dec 13 2013, 10:13 PM) The conclusion is that for every x∈R, ∃ an inverse y∈R ∋x+y∈R. ∋ means 'such that' ? Any reasoning behind this , maybe a more detailed explanation ? I'm sorry , I've a lot to go .
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v1n0d
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Dec 13 2013, 10:24 PM
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QUOTE(maximR @ Dec 13 2013, 10:18 PM) Didn't think of that . Is there a general proof ? It's not necessary to provide general proof. Existence is shown if you can provide just one example where the property holds. QUOTE(maximR @ Dec 13 2013, 10:23 PM) ∋ means 'such that' ? Any reasoning behind this , maybe a more detailed explanation ? I'm sorry , I've a lot to go . Sorry, creature of habit. ∋ means such that. For any real number, an additive inverse exists within the set so that that number added to it's inverse will yield the additive identity, 0. This is a basic property of the vector space R of real numbers. You can find more info on this in books on linear algebra. This post has been edited by v1n0d: Dec 13 2013, 10:26 PM
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RED-HAIR-SHANKS
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Dec 13 2013, 10:28 PM
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QUOTE(v1n0d @ Dec 13 2013, 10:15 PM) The solution makes use of the Gelfond-Schneider theorem.  Ohh, thanks! Now I get it!
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maximR
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Dec 13 2013, 10:32 PM
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QUOTE(v1n0d @ Dec 13 2013, 10:24 PM) It's not necessary to provide general proof. Existence is shown if you can provide just one example where the property holds. Sorry, creature of habit. ∋ means such that. For any real number, an additive inverse exists within the set so that that number added to it's inverse will yield the additive identity, 0. This is a basic property of the vector space R of real numbers. You can find more info on this in books on linear algebra. Can I say : For every x∈R, ∃ an inverse y∈R such that x+y = 0 instead of x+y∈R ?
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RED-HAIR-SHANKS
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Dec 13 2013, 10:33 PM
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QUOTE(maximR @ Dec 13 2013, 10:20 PM) What about a general proof ? Wait, did I miss something?  If I were to multiply an irrational number(√2) with itself, then I'll get a rational number, which is 2. So, the product of two irrational numbers is rational. Did I left out anything vital?
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v1n0d
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Dec 13 2013, 10:35 PM
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QUOTE(maximR @ Dec 13 2013, 10:32 PM) Can I say : For every x∈R, ∃ an inverse y∈R such that x+y = 0 instead of x+y∈R ? Yes. In fact, you've just pointed out a mistake I made in my original post. I'll go correct it now. QUOTE(RED-HAIR-SHANKS @ Dec 13 2013, 10:33 PM) Wait, did I miss something?  If I were to multiply an irrational number(√2) with itself, then I'll get a rational number, which is 2. So, the product of two irrational numbers is rational. Did I left out anything vital?  Your concern for the question is this - is the irrational power of an irrational still irrational?
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maximR
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Dec 13 2013, 10:40 PM
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QUOTE(RED-HAIR-SHANKS @ Dec 13 2013, 10:33 PM) Wait, did I miss something?  If I were to multiply an irrational number(√2) with itself, then I'll get a rational number, which is 2. So, the product of two irrational numbers is rational. Did I left out anything vital?  Try this out : √2*√3 , do you still get a rational number ?
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RED-HAIR-SHANKS
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Dec 13 2013, 10:52 PM
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QUOTE(v1n0d @ Dec 13 2013, 10:35 PM) Your concern for the question is this - is the irrational power of an irrational still irrational? QUOTE(maximR @ Dec 13 2013, 10:40 PM) Try this out : √2*√3 , do you still get a rational number ? An irrational to an irrational power may be rational, as what has been shown previously by maximR,(which also involves multiplying the Gelfond–Schneider constant with √2) But, if in the case of √2*√3, I don't think the result is rational. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
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v1n0d
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Dec 13 2013, 10:56 PM
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QUOTE(RED-HAIR-SHANKS @ Dec 13 2013, 10:52 PM) An irrational to an irrational power may be rational, as what has been shown previously by maximR,(which also involves multiplying the Gelfond–Schneider constant with √2) But, if in the case of √2*√3, I don't think the result is rational. Correct me if I'm wrong though. The product of irrationals aren't always rational. As with the original question, one only need show an example to prove this statement true.
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maximR
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Dec 13 2013, 10:59 PM
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QUOTE(v1n0d @ Dec 13 2013, 10:56 PM) The product of irrationals aren't always rational. As with the original question, one only need show an example to prove this statement true. For every x and y such that both are irrational , their product is a rational number . If the statement is revised as above , can one example prove the statement ?
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v1n0d
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Dec 13 2013, 11:01 PM
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QUOTE(maximR @ Dec 13 2013, 10:59 PM) For every x and y such that both are irrational , their product is a rational number . If the statement is revised as above , can one example prove the statement ? You mean disprove. Yes, by providing a counterexample.
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