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TSCritical_Fallacy
post Dec 13 2013, 10:01 PM

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QUOTE(maximR @ Dec 13 2013, 09:54 PM)
Yes , an equation which combines i , pi , e , 1 and 0 !  smile.gif Very beautiful equation .
Can you name that beautiful equation? laugh.gif

QUOTE(RED-HAIR-SHANKS @ Dec 13 2013, 09:55 PM)
Hmmm hmm.gif I kinda fathom the question, but I have no idea on how to show that it's rational or not. A very tricky one I'd say.... unsure.gif
Hint: See Post #226 on Page 12. icon_idea.gif
maximR
post Dec 13 2013, 10:04 PM

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QUOTE(Critical_Fallacy @ Dec 13 2013, 10:01 PM)
Can you name that beautiful equation? laugh.gif
Hint: See Post #226 on Page 12. icon_idea.gif
*
Euler's Identity , as Sal Khan of KhanAcademy put it , ' If this doesn't blow your mind , you have no emotion . ' , in his long derivation of this identity . I think it involves some series but I can't recall . blush.gif
RED-HAIR-SHANKS
post Dec 13 2013, 10:08 PM

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QUOTE(maximR @ Dec 13 2013, 09:57 PM)
Try a simpler one then : Proof , or disproof that the product of two irrational numbers results in a rational number .
*
I'm not so sure about this, but I might give it a try. We know that √2 is irrational. But if we multiply √2 with √2:
√2 x √2 = 2/1
Hence, 2 in this case, is rational.
v1n0d
post Dec 13 2013, 10:13 PM

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QUOTE(maximR @ Dec 13 2013, 09:54 PM)
Yes , an equation which combines i , pi , e , 1 and 0 !  smile.gif Very beautiful equation .

I would appreciate it if you could provide tutorials on Logic .

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hpho...650586348_n.jpg

The link will bring you to a page of 2013 Further Mathematics STPM Repeat Paper . In Q1 , it asks for the validity of propositions , but in my book , it says that a proposition and an argument are two different things . A proposition can be true or false , valid and invalid are incorrect terms to refer to propositions .

I know how to do (a) and (b) , but what about the conclusion ?
*
The conclusion is that for every x∈R, ∃ an inverse y∈R ∋x+y=0.

Edit: Corrected! Thanks maximR

This post has been edited by v1n0d: Dec 13 2013, 10:36 PM
maximR
post Dec 13 2013, 10:15 PM

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QUOTE(Critical_Fallacy @ Dec 13 2013, 10:01 PM)
Can you name that beautiful equation? laugh.gif
Hint: See Post #226 on Page 12. icon_idea.gif
*
Wait , I think I see something .

Suppose that (√2)^(√2) is irrational .

Let (√2)^(√2) = a , where a is an irrational number .

Raising the powers of both sides by √2 , we have (√2)^2 = a^(√2) ;

a^(√2) = 2 ( a is irrational , √2 is also irrational but 2 is rational ) .

shocking.gif

Call me a nerd , but this is much more exciting than a lot of things I've seen !
v1n0d
post Dec 13 2013, 10:15 PM

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QUOTE(RED-HAIR-SHANKS @ Dec 13 2013, 09:55 PM)
Hmmm hmm.gif I kinda fathom the question, but I have no idea on how to show that it's rational or not. A very tricky one I'd say.... unsure.gif
*
The solution makes use of the Gelfond-Schneider theorem. smile.gif

QUOTE(maximR @ Dec 13 2013, 10:15 PM)
Wait , I think I see something .

Suppose that (√2)^(√2) is irrational .

Let (√2)^(√2) = a , where a is an irrational number .

Raising the powers of both sides by √2 , we have (√2)^2 = a^(√2) ;

a^(√2) = 2  ( a is irrational , √2 is also irrational but 2 is rational ) .

shocking.gif

Call me a nerd , but this is much more exciting than a lot of things I've seen !
*
Correct, but what happens when a≠b?

This post has been edited by v1n0d: Dec 13 2013, 10:16 PM
maximR
post Dec 13 2013, 10:17 PM

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QUOTE(v1n0d @ Dec 13 2013, 10:15 PM)
The solution makes use of the Gelfond-Schneider theorem. smile.gif
Correct, but what happens when a≠b?
*
Can the working that I've shown be accepted ? It seems a bit simple and doesn't touch on anything about transcendental numbers .
maximR
post Dec 13 2013, 10:18 PM

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QUOTE(v1n0d @ Dec 13 2013, 10:15 PM)
The solution makes use of the Gelfond-Schneider theorem. smile.gif
Correct, but what happens when a≠b?
*
Didn't think of that . sweat.gif

Is there a general proof ?
maximR
post Dec 13 2013, 10:20 PM

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QUOTE(RED-HAIR-SHANKS @ Dec 13 2013, 10:08 PM)
I'm not so sure about this, but I might give it a try. We know that √2 is irrational. But if we multiply √2 with √2:
√2 x √2 = 2/1
Hence, 2 in this case, is rational.
*
What about a general proof ?
maximR
post Dec 13 2013, 10:23 PM

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QUOTE(v1n0d @ Dec 13 2013, 10:13 PM)
The conclusion is that for every x∈R, ∃ an inverse y∈R ∋x+y∈R.
*
∋ means 'such that' ?

Any reasoning behind this , maybe a more detailed explanation ? I'm sorry , I've a lot to go .
v1n0d
post Dec 13 2013, 10:24 PM

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QUOTE(maximR @ Dec 13 2013, 10:18 PM)
Didn't think of that .  sweat.gif

Is there a general proof ?
*
It's not necessary to provide general proof. Existence is shown if you can provide just one example where the property holds.

QUOTE(maximR @ Dec 13 2013, 10:23 PM)
∋ means 'such that' ?

Any reasoning behind this , maybe a more detailed explanation ? I'm sorry , I've a lot to go .
*
Sorry, creature of habit. ∋ means such that. For any real number, an additive inverse exists within the set so that that number added to it's inverse will yield the additive identity, 0. This is a basic property of the vector space R of real numbers. You can find more info on this in books on linear algebra.

This post has been edited by v1n0d: Dec 13 2013, 10:26 PM
RED-HAIR-SHANKS
post Dec 13 2013, 10:28 PM

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QUOTE(v1n0d @ Dec 13 2013, 10:15 PM)
The solution makes use of the Gelfond-Schneider theorem. smile.gif
*
Ohh, thanks! Now I get it! smile.gif
maximR
post Dec 13 2013, 10:32 PM

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QUOTE(v1n0d @ Dec 13 2013, 10:24 PM)
It's not necessary to provide general proof. Existence is shown if you can provide just one example where the property holds.
Sorry, creature of habit. ∋ means such that. For any real number, an additive inverse exists within the set so that that number added to it's inverse will yield the additive identity, 0. This is a basic property of the vector space R of real numbers. You can find more info on this in books on linear algebra.
*
Can I say :

For every x∈R, ∃ an inverse y∈R such that x+y = 0 instead of x+y∈R ?
RED-HAIR-SHANKS
post Dec 13 2013, 10:33 PM

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QUOTE(maximR @ Dec 13 2013, 10:20 PM)
What about a general proof ?
*
Wait, did I miss something? shocking.gif If I were to multiply an irrational number(√2) with itself, then I'll get a rational number, which is 2. So, the product of two irrational numbers is rational. Did I left out anything vital? unsure.gif
v1n0d
post Dec 13 2013, 10:35 PM

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QUOTE(maximR @ Dec 13 2013, 10:32 PM)
Can I say :

For every x∈R, ∃ an inverse y∈R such that x+y = 0 instead of x+y∈R ?
*
Yes. In fact, you've just pointed out a mistake I made in my original post. I'll go correct it now. doh.gif

QUOTE(RED-HAIR-SHANKS @ Dec 13 2013, 10:33 PM)
Wait, did I miss something? shocking.gif  If I were to multiply an irrational number(√2) with itself, then I'll get a rational number, which is 2. So, the product of two irrational numbers is rational. Did I left out anything vital? unsure.gif
*
Your concern for the question is this - is the irrational power of an irrational still irrational?
maximR
post Dec 13 2013, 10:40 PM

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QUOTE(RED-HAIR-SHANKS @ Dec 13 2013, 10:33 PM)
Wait, did I miss something? shocking.gif  If I were to multiply an irrational number(√2) with itself, then I'll get a rational number, which is 2. So, the product of two irrational numbers is rational. Did I left out anything vital? unsure.gif
*
Try this out :

√2*√3 , do you still get a rational number ?


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post Dec 13 2013, 10:52 PM

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QUOTE(v1n0d @ Dec 13 2013, 10:35 PM)
Your concern for the question is this - is the irrational power of an irrational still irrational?
*
QUOTE(maximR @ Dec 13 2013, 10:40 PM)
Try this out :

√2*√3 , do you still get a rational number ?
*
An irrational to an irrational power may be rational, as what has been shown previously by maximR,(which also involves multiplying the Gelfond–Schneider constant with √2)

But, if in the case of √2*√3, I don't think the result is rational. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

v1n0d
post Dec 13 2013, 10:56 PM

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QUOTE(RED-HAIR-SHANKS @ Dec 13 2013, 10:52 PM)
An irrational to an irrational power may be rational, as what has been shown previously by maximR,(which also involves multiplying the Gelfond–Schneider constant with √2)

But, if in the case of √2*√3, I don't think the result is rational. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
*
The product of irrationals aren't always rational. As with the original question, one only need show an example to prove this statement true.
maximR
post Dec 13 2013, 10:59 PM

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QUOTE(v1n0d @ Dec 13 2013, 10:56 PM)
The product of irrationals aren't always rational. As with the original question, one only need show an example to prove this statement true.
*
For every x and y such that both are irrational , their product is a rational number .

If the statement is revised as above , can one example prove the statement ?
v1n0d
post Dec 13 2013, 11:01 PM

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QUOTE(maximR @ Dec 13 2013, 10:59 PM)
For every x and y such that both are irrational , their product is a rational number .

If the statement is revised as above , can one example prove the statement ?
*
You mean disprove. Yes, by providing a counterexample.

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