I am not sure how many people out there are concerning the environment that we are dwelling. As an environmental-lover, I think it is mandatory to evoke awareness among body-builders around us.

The Environmental Impact of a Meat-Based Diet
A Plant Based Diet For Optimum Nutrition
Reducing the Environmental Impact of Dietary Choice: Perspectives from a Behavioural and Social Change Approach

The three websites published above are all related to health/environmental impact on increasing trend of animal flesh consumption.

I summarized them in few bullet points:
1. Raise of massive livestock in a confined spaces: requires tons of waters to raise the animals and their feeds, limited activity space results to fatter livestock, energy required to run the (livestock) factory.
2. Contamination of animal flesh due to source of foods and drinks.
3. Increased risk of cardiovascular disease and certain cancers for animal flesh consumer

This issue is essentially important to raise up here, since most of us are mild to heavy meat consumer as it deemed to aid for muscle gain/recovery.

Please do not shy to share your view, or other side of the story.
It is great great important to find a equilibrium point for a sustainability environment, at least we are contributing toward coming generation.

www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=animals

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=enviro

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=eatme

www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=sponsor

The author seemed annoyed to have a vegetarian friend or refrained from taking animal flesh by the parents, just my opinion.

His words sounded too extreme for me, at least he should filtered out the bad words before publishing. However, he somehow got his point right to a certain extent, but I wouldn't agree all of them.
For instance, he outlined the three main types of vegetarian, and none of them suit me.
Maybe he got some real bad-ass friends in his life that keep persuading or even warn him not to eat meat at all? For me, I usually prepare all of the meal by myself (protein shake, finger food - fruits, nuts), so that it will not bring any trouble for eating out with my friends.
Maybe we are doing something really bad to the environment, but at least the author must understand the true circle-of-life before expressing those feeling. We dominate, we kill, we do whatever we wanted to do, same things go to other species if they have the chance to rule the world. But what is the point when we overdo it and ruin the whole world?

This thread is not calling everybody to get rid of animal fleshes in their life, but to think over again, "is that necessary to put it into your mouth?yes, maybe not that amount?". After we died, what we left behind are merely body and intelligence.

Thank you for sharing the articles, darklight!

Let me put it this way. Crudely but to the point. No offense intended. Bodybuilders dont give a f*** whether you go vegetarian and stay small or not. Lol. It is your right Have fun.

hehe, but if you are looking for serious gain, it can be done with vegan diet too.

I think it truly changed my life. By increasing fruits and veges intake, I feel better, stronger, and smarter (seriously! More focused on study).

Yep, have fun!

This post has been edited by yan99033: Aug 13 2012, 08:26 PM

No it cannot. Period. You are defying the laws of nature. The prey exists to be eaten by the hunter. Men are meant to eat animal flesh. Animal protein will infinitely be superior to vegetable protein no matter how much you mix and match your grasses to complete an amino acid profile. Your statement is a joke when you try to associate serious gain = vegan diet.



I have a great idea. You try posting your suggestion to bb.com, especially the IFBB Pro section. Meanwhile, have some animal flesh:-

you need massive land and jungle clearing to plant more veges to feed more vegans. Climate changes will wreck havoc to the costs.

Contamination of plants via chemicals will also kill you.

Vegetables will also give you cardio disease.

if you're a vegan and when you go down on your wife, does this nullify your vege diet?

okay, this wins. /thread

Negative. Unless you are backed up with solid evidences.

If you are referring to the references provided in 1st thread, you will see how MASSIVE amount of animal feed needed to grow just to feed the animals and let them grow, and not to mention that environmental impact on maintaining the livestock farm.

Me and my wife are doing greatly with vegan diet!

To darklight:
my bad

But I must admit that I am a kind-hearted creature...

I am tempted to ask with happy4eva's post in my mind but.....

not taking sides here but your argument on how it impact the environment is invalid(as both source has its pro & cons)

startin from the 1st point, vegetation requires land AND it depletes the fertility of the land over each reaping.

2nd point, contamination? go to ANY farm that is not organic, they are spraying pesticides etc etc (insert whatever brand u want) on your f***ing vege like its water so that you get that BEAUTIFUL leaf on your vege to consume.

cardio that one idk lah, but all i know, living 2 years in the temple, ive seen enough obese vegetarian to know that if you dont work your ass off what you have eaten, you will also grow fat.

and SINCE you STRESSED on the links you provided, let me notify you the keywords you missed out that simply bites you back in your vege arse which was gotten from the exact link itself.

http://www.vegan-nutritionista.com/vegan-protein.html

comparatively, the amount of resources pooled to EXTRACT ALL of these proteins just to replace a simple meat protein alone, how is that COST EFFECTIVE from your point of view?

ive got all day, pls give me a constructive answer and not post links for me to read. even if you want to copy paste, give me the keyword and link, im very interested to hear your views on the 1st point, 2nd point and finally the last, we'll start with the 1st point

fox eats rabbit => fox poops into the soil => the living soil then absorbs the poop(which includes the rabbit) => fruit and vegetable plants absorb that exact same soil to grow => humans eat those same fruits and vegetables

This process happens EVERYWHERE in nature.

If we didn’t eat animals, they would quickly overpopulate the planet and most likely starve to death.”

The population of domesticated farm animals in the USA in 2008 is estimated roughly at around 20 billion. This figure is quite small since the actual number of animals slaughtered for food for the US was 10,270,019,000 (that’s: ten billion, two hundred seventy million, nineteen thousand animals).

What this means is farm animals outnumber human beings by a 65 to 1 ratio in the USA.

As it may appear from these statistics, non-human animal populations seem to already be vastly out of control. You might think that to kill these animals would be the best solution since they are already consuming 80% of our corn grown in this country and 60 billion pounds of our soy each year, but unfortunately no matter how many animals Americans kill and eat each year, there continues to be more of them.

The reason for this is quite simple. Animal farmers have intensive breeding operations where they artificially inseminate as many female animals as possible to create even more offspring than the year before. Without giant egg hatcheries and other artificial forms of breeding, animals would never have any hope of reaching, let alone sustaining, current populations.

As far as animals suffering from starvation due to over population goes, the amount of grains and other crops consumed by US livestock is enough to feed 800 million human (animals) who are currently starving to death worldwide.

The argument against a vegan lifestyle stated above could also be reworded to read as “But if we didn’t slit the throats of animals and eat their flesh, they might die horrible deaths.”

If we didn’t milk cows, their udders would explode and they would die!Ffarmers want to take milk from a cow who is producing it, they steal her newborn calf from her and instead hook her up to milking machines that roughly simulate the nursing of calves. If a farmer forgets or neglects to milk cows who have had their babies taken from them, the cows will moo their distress from the incredible discomfort. Poor cows!!

So you grow veges massively, no need land for it right? it grows right out of thin air?


If you slurp slurp on her vaginal fluids, and she liam liam on your semen, does it makes you both a non-vegans?

Besides, when your tongue's frolicking hers, there's an exchange of mammalian fluids, does it not make you both a non-vegans?

This post has been edited by happy4ever: Aug 13 2012, 09:38 PM

As a result, whatever we do to the earth, mother nature has the ability to counteract in order to reach a balance point, am I right?
Just as illustrated in Taoism Philosophy, yin-yang are both occur concurrently.

In other word:

me (kind-hearted) VS darklight (aggressive killer)

LOL!

---

Added on August 13, 2012, 9:49 pmNo offence, but I think you should learn how to respect others before posting. tq

This post has been edited by yan99033: Aug 13 2012, 09:49 PM

I know you are kidding but are you sure I am an aggressive killer? Do you actually know what I do in real life?

ps dont worry about happy4eva. He`s a good guy. You just need to get used to his nature.

bro.... is this the MJ curry house u usually eat in? really wanna try it someday... noway im goin vegan after looking at that photo... haha

edit

or izzit kanna?

This post has been edited by justin_5: Aug 13 2012, 10:19 PM

Why should it be offensive? You're still a kid?

Otherwise, why cant you answer the question?

Ingesting of bodily fluids between two humans. Does it nullify your stance as a vegan?

Go on and answer it please instead of feeling sheepish and childish.

This post has been edited by happy4ever: Aug 13 2012, 10:22 PM

you are a doctor, right? not sure but i read from somewhere else.


to happy4ever,

my answer is No. hope it clears your bewilderment.

eyyy.... where can like that one.... u drink human bodily fluids is a NO.... then drink animal fluids oso no lo...

but then... izzit u become vegan not becoz u dun like meat... is u dun like killing?

if u say u dowan kill animal then u become vegan then i can understand the part about human fluids...

but then isnt anything that breathes is a living organism? plants breath too... so.... haha

just messin with ya bro... everyone can have their own preference... just dont be too proud of ur preference and start thinking other people should follow coz ur preference is the right one... im not saying ur saying that though.... haha

you're ingesting a human biological products, its ok. but when it comes to animals, its bad?

Yes, eat human eat in other word, they are the one consuming the most out of everything, they eat both animals and vegetable, which take space to grow

my wife is not crying or suffering while I am doing so, to say the least

Still, its own personal preference, undoubtedly I felt much better after switched to vegetarian.
Erm, I cant say I am a vegan since I am still eating eggs and ingesting whey proteins for protein source( they are animal products) in limited amount

BTW, I shall share with you guys my favourite staple food that I am taking everyday once I backed home.

This post has been edited by yan99033: Aug 14 2012, 09:48 AM

mom : eat those spinach, they are good for you.......

food for thought........why don't such advices work?

Some of my staple foods, 10+ grains with legumes and beans as my main carbohydrate source, not to mention the importance of fruits (kiwi, apple, or papaya) too.

And the shakes that prepared for whole day in the morning.
Ingredient list:
Banana
Orange
Apple
Cucumber
Tomato
Olive oil
oat/grains

optional: (with controlled amount of fats)
sunflower kernel
pumpkin seed
almond
cashew
walnut
dragon fruit
spinach

I prepared for total 4 cups, 2 in thermal insulated bottle for retaining its freshness, 2 for me and my wife in the morning.

I always go for organic stuff, unless they are too expensive (certain products: tomato, cucumber...) to spend in the long run. But definitely organic food is worth spending in my opinion. Just like people invests their money on properties, luxury products, but I see it in another way. By eating healthily, you are indirectly increase your inner value.

There is a organic store near Taman Canaught named Country Farm, whenever they are doing promotion, I will purchase in bulk like crazy. Sometimes they offer buy 1 free 1, or in attractive price.

---

Added on August 14, 2012, 1:02 pmspinach is one of my favourite food. Aeon (formerly known as jusco) is selling organic spinach.
Just wash, rinse, and blend it with fruits to enhance the taste.

I personally prefer banana, apple or raisin. Just a game of mix-n-match.

With olive oil too!

This post has been edited by yan99033: Aug 14 2012, 01:02 PM

Walao. I can't even stuff veges into my diet. What more to say 100% pure vegetarian diet.

do whatever you think it is good for you!

Oh i'm sure she wont be crying, but screaming in joy as she gulps your protein by the kilos.

Your own preference then dont bother talking about environmental impact and such.

As long as humans walk the earth, the environment is kaput.

m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DKNCGkprGW_o%26feature%3Dshare&feature=share&v=KNCGkprGW_o&gl=MY

a link to youtube which explains the facts and problems as a meat n diary consumer. I need to stress again that I am not having a dispute or whatsoever, but to share something that beneficial to me.

we cannot do anything on the deterioration in quality of living environment. But we can definitely make it a better place for next generation. like it or hate it, tats all

This post has been edited by yan99033: Aug 15 2012, 01:59 PM

lol.

tell me, why dont carnivores die from cancer?

you're talking about PROCESSED meat and the ingredients and shit you put into it thats the killer.

Make it better for the environment? good. dont breed. dont live in a house or a condo. go live in the jungle. For otherwise, you're contributing to the ever decreasing ecosystem we have because they have to clear it off just so you can have a nice comfy home for your kids to grow and breed while animals get killed/displaced.

if u r sharing something good, everybody will appreciate it. But I dont really see a point but a cluster of text. AGAIN, if u r replying to contribute to the whole community, go for it! Show to everybody why u r right in a mature way (back up ur words with some reliable sources, where I dont really see anything but negativity)

if u were watching the video from the link, u would know how our grand grand parents lived with their grain based diet. while gradually increasing of meat consumption are associating with increment of certain disease n cancer.

N I am tired to answer ur question. Please go to google

From darklight79 on Facebook: "First off, I'm not the ones who mentioned guns in the first place. And then you make a laughing stock of yourself on my wall by acting childish and talking about fights and all till everyone is asking who's this clown. You're married already, with kids, you need to grow up. Focus on teaching those twins of yours to eat brussel sprouts and leave the manliness to others."

No, darklight...you started with the guns (check back). You said I'm a laughing stock, but yet banned me on Facebook and then send the above private message to me not allowing me to reply. You're behaving just like Utusan Malaysia. Seriously, I don't care to make any impression with your group of friends who call people "retards" and whom you tagged for support here in this Forum. But I'm sure you know how you look like in the eyes of your other friends who viewed those posts, and you banned me cos you couldn't take it. Nice of you to show your manliness that way!

You used to be a nice guy in high school, darklight and I've had fun times with you. Too bad you've changed. Take your own advice, grow up and stop calling people "retards" for going veg and sharing the benefits of it. No one is forcing you to do it.

Neither do I see your lopsided point either.

human medical science are never absolute. Nor can it ever prove that only vegans will have long disease free life

i have elderly people of 90s and above who are meat eaters and lived long and healthy.

to prove your point, you need to show how only vegans will 100% live longer than all 100% meat eaters.

As for the environment, i've shown you how your own lifestyle isn't doing the environment any good inspite of your diet being vege. if you care about the environment, do it holistically and stop living in the concrete jungle and using toxic spewing vehicles to commute. reduce your carbon footprint by reducing as much garbage as possible.

can do that?

---

Added on August 15, 2012, 8:04 pmeh, i take it he was never close to you in school?

wanna hug? don cry la. i be your fren fren, ok?

This post has been edited by happy4ever: Aug 15 2012, 08:04 PM

happy4ever, I'm sorry but I don't know how to use the quote thing, but in reply to your question, I am a good friend of his cousin which is how I met darklight.

If you happen to be Sherman/Fawkes (I dont really bother which), I don't fancy being friends with someone who calls other retards just cos they have a difference of opinion.

Aren't you guys going to apologize to yan99033 for calling him a "retard" on Facebook based on the 3 points he mentioned? After all, I have confirmed his 3 points with references. You may have a different opinion but those 3 points with my reference are still valid, like it or not and shows that he is definitely not a retard. You got to admit, you didn't do your research before calling him a retard. Unless you think the United Nations, Oprah, Michael Pollan...etc are all retards too...

With all those muscles, are you man enough to apologize? C'mon, show your manliness!

By the way, you wrote this:
"tell me, why dont carnivores die from cancer?"

Can you verify that carnivores don't die from cancer? Show me if this is true.

And hey, did you know lions are "semi-vegetarians"? And before you laugh and reply so quickly, I would say you better do your research before you answer...

Let's see who's the retard...

To "happy4ever",

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/weekinre...ttman.html?_r=1

You do really need to spend some time reading.
I might not your friend, but GOOGLE and YOUTUBE are always out there (24/7) to serve you. Don't worry!


“Confidence is ignorance. If you're feeling cocky, it's because there's something you don't know.”
― Eoin Colfer, Artemis Fowl


“Spoon feeding in the long run teaches us nothing but the shape of the spoon.”
― E.M. Forster

i never called anyone a retard.

can you also verify carnivores die from cancer from eating meat?

lions being semi vege is irrelevant. meat consumption dont kill you.
its what you put into the meat that does.


Again, you point a link that is at most half arsed and address the symptoms, not the problem.

my question back at you is:

why is the per capita of meat consumption grown so much over the years?

Go on, wise guy

Aren't you guys tired ? I am . Sleep liao good night. Carnivore or herbivore, humans are omnivore to begin with, it's in our nature, don't change it, instead change the way you live

I am sick and tired with happy4ever.

Why?
1. Don't know how to do RESEARCH[1] before posting
2. Asking irrelevant questions (without knowing what is the true purpose of this thread)
3. Acting childishly (making fun of my wife, asking me about carnivore but in fact we are omnivore, this person seems dislike vegetarian over discussing the main thing)

To happy4ever,

why don't you tell everybody what is the purpose for this thread? Because you looked so LOST, and miserable.


ps. I shall include the annotation, since this person don't know exactly what is the definition.

[1] 1: careful or diligent search
2: studious inquiry or examination; especially : investigation or experimentation aimed at the discovery and interpretation of facts, revision of accepted theories or laws in the light of new facts, or practical application of such new or revised theories or laws
3: the collecting of information about a particular subject

[from: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/research]

This post has been edited by yan99033: Aug 16 2012, 09:42 AM

happy4ever is merely questioning your initial answers rather indirectly, if you cant answer them, that means you dont even understand the links you've posted fully to even share it, you deemed it as YOUR "research", yet when questioned you do not have a solid answer, that is not research anymore, thats merely linking ppl to something you have no idea about.

you couldnt even answer my previous post and ignored it when i questioned your "research". theories are NOT practical. its funnier that you share a theory without proper understanding and calculation. there is so many blind ppl like you that are slaves to media propaganda that organizations like PETA and shits pull you by your noses, putting proper vegetarians in a bad spotlight.

just saying bro, if you have your own believes, so be it, BUT only share it AFTER there is results, you can share your PROCESS of your vegetarian bodybuilding at the "Member Workout Journals" section: http://forum.lowyat.net/MemberWorkoutJournals , if you are still keen in making a comparison between both methods of body building, take down all the details needed to support your discussion and comparisons, not to mention doing PROPER research to back up your claims and be ready to answer questions when questioned.

you cant claim something is the way to go when you havent FULLY experience it. its like MLM companies saying if you follow my investment plan you sure get rich, mana boleh caya ni?!

Go do your thing, post your journal, when you have done it only come talk kok with PROOFS to back your muscles. No proof talk kok ur kok sure give ppl cut la

---

Added on August 16, 2012, 11:46 ami dont recall calling him a retard, but even if i did, it doesnt matter, coz he sure posted like one at times, eitherway why should i apologize when its my opinion of someone? your boss sometimes think you are an idiot too, ask him apologize? those 3 points mention are hardly valid based on HIS context, if UN, Oprah or whatever are researching based on his context, then yes, they are a bunch of retards too. UN is infamously retarded on alot of occasions anyways, so this being one of their moments of retardness doesnt seems to faze me at all. May i remind you, this is a comparison between bodybuilding methods + cost effectiveness + the effect of it on the enviroment+health risks. try not to separate those 4 elements, instead rationalize and think over those elements together, and do the bloody math. It aint no rocket science to figure it out if you are experienced in most of these fields before, unless you are off course...havent been experienced in those field before, reading it all on the net.

This post has been edited by The Amateur Working Bee: Aug 16 2012, 11:52 AM

Oh okay, now I know how the quote thing works...

That's funny. I don't see why I need to verify something I didn't say, claim or imply. But then, you are implying that they don't die of cancer. So again, I ask, are you able to verify this? If you're not, then you're just posting based on assumptions and as yan99033 said, you don't do your research before posting.

"lions being semi vege is irrelevant."

A lot of what you wrote in reply to yan99033 is irrelevant, but yet you wrote it anyway. So, you don't disagree with me that lions are "semi-vegs"?

-----

Bee,

"unless you are off course...havent been experienced in those field before, reading it all on the net."

You mean you don't read for knowledge? There are lots of things I know and would like to know, some which I experienced myself, some through other's experiences and some through reading. Unfortunately, due to lack of time having only 24 hours, 7 days a week, I can't be experiencing everything but that doesn't mean I'm wrong just cos I don't have that experience. But if you're the type who claims to know only what you have experienced, then I guess you don't know a lot. And in case you didn't know (sorry, but you suddenly seem stupid to me), two different people doing the same thing may experience different results. You know that, right? After all, you cannot be two different person, since you're only you.

May i remind you that those 4 elements can and have been done, proven time and again by many vegetarians and vegans all over the world (including 2 personal friends of mine who are body builders). So, for you to say that they don't work isn't valid. Sure, it may not work for everyone, and it may not work for you but again, yan isn't forcing it on anyone. He's merely suggesting that people could try it as he himself has experienced benefits from it and would like to share it. I don't see how that can justify calling him a retard. In fact, for you to criticize yan's research when you yourself gives statements like "vegetation requires land AND it depletes the fertility of the land over each reaping" and implied that you get BEAUTIFUL leaf because of pesticides, shows the level of research you have done yourself. Do the bloody math, raising animals for human consumption require way more land than vegetation for human consumption and no, pesticides do not help you get beautiful leaves...it just keeps the pests away and sometimes, they even fail in that too. Makes you wonder who really are the retards here.

What really disgusts me, and not seen by yan or the readers here is that you guys came in not for a healthy debate/discussion but more as bullies, with darklight79 tagging you guys on Facebook for support here (very manly indeed), calling yan a retard and the two of you making stupid points or asking stupid sex questions.

In fact, in yan's first posts, he even welcome a discussion of pros and cons, and when he said, "hehe, but if you are looking for serious gain, it can be done with vegan diet too.", he didn't say it can only be done with a vegan diet but you guys came into this thread as if your mummy took away all the meat from your dinner table.

Disgusting...

This post has been edited by littlelucky: Aug 16 2012, 01:16 PM

/popcorn.

Just to steer the spirited discussion you guys sem to be having here,

Littlelucky, be aware that you're posting in the b&b section of the forums. Yan as well.

The cold hard fact is that by posting here we are not talking about the environment, it shouldn't be the main point. Bodybuilding is.

Added to the fact that solid food, mainly meat should be your main source of protein, being vegan totally defeats the purpose.

Though you can still do well with a vegan diet, can you excel in the field? Can you do it without supplements?

Hi mikehuan, thanks for the reminder. I'm also aware the the b&b section falls under the category of fitness and health too, and which health is one of the points discussed as well.

There are vegetarians/vegans who have excelled in their field. Here are a few:

Fauja Singh
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/16/f..._n_1014670.html

Patrik Baboumian
http://www.armenian-viking.com/
http://mfablog.org/2011/08/vegetarian-crow...ongest-man.html

There's more, but these are the ones on my mind now. In fact, one of the two popular tennis player sisters (I can't recall their names now), just recently went veg.

With or without supplements, will depend on that individual and his belief/research. A body builder friend of mine (not vegetarian/vegan, he eats meat) had cancer and he told me his doctor blamed it on his supplements.

This post has been edited by littlelucky: Aug 16 2012, 02:18 PM

Regardless of your friend. You didn't answer the question. Can you get you protein quota for growth without protein shakes, or not?

I'm posting from my phone so I'll respond to the other points later

lesse, lets slowly dissect your wall of trash rage.

I am quite interested how you came out with the fact i don't read for knowledge, if i dont read to study the basics of agriculture, or heck even english, i wouldnt be posting here now am i? this is abit funny lol.

so you saying:"I can't be experiencing everything but that doesn't mean I'm wrong just cos I don't have that experience". Does that mean you are correct when you are ALREADY inexperienced compared to someone EXPERIENCED with ON HANDS field work on agriculture works for couple of years?

you said:"two different people doing the same thing may experience different results. After all, you cannot be two different person, since you're only you". so you mean us ppl that are in the argriculture field are consist of one body of thought alone when we plant and source for several farms with a decade plus history track records of supplying vegetation to the mass?

you said:"those 4 elements can and have been done, proven time and again by many vegetarians and vegans all over the world, including 2 personal friends of mine who are body builders. Sure, it may not work for everyone". So you are suggesting that something that MIGHT NOT work for everyone is a trustable source of diet plan for the public? compared to something that is a CONFIRMED proven methology? actually i dont think you even read and understand how the 4 elements work anyways LOL! ill list em here again for u to figure that one out and EXPLAIN FURTHER how your 2 friends achieve:
1.comparison between bodybuilding methods
2.cost effectiveness between both methods
3.the effect of it on the enviroment
4.health risks
i will await your answer on this 4 elements on how your 2 pals achieve those, i dont need "stories" i need solid proof.

you said:"shows the level of research you have done yourself. Raising animals for human consumption require way more land than vegetation for human consumption and no, pesticides do not help you get beautiful leaves...it just keeps the pests away and sometimes, they even fail in that too". The only method without using pesticides to get "nice" vegetables are Hydroponics, which isint popular and not adapatable for MASSIVE production for MASS HUMAN CONSUMPTION due to the obvious. Pesticides and fetilization(which saves over 90% of harvest) over each harvest for GROUND based vegetation is still needed to maintain that AMOUNT of harvest for mass consumption, geddit? so one might say:OOOHH WE FEED ANIMALS VEGE TOO THEY EATING OUT VEGE! which is WRONG FOOL! Different types of livestock consumes different types of FODDER! what is FODDER? they are excess materials of harvest that is used to feed livestocks, other types of feed for particalar types of livestock are still harvested to feed, BUT they are far more easy to maintain AND reproduce due to the types of plant they are, for instance hay. try planting a field without pesticides AND proper nettings/human interference, you will get shitty harvest, that is why ORGANIC vegetables are so expensive and produce lesser harvest as the effort to produce them is at least FIVE fold or more compared to normal vegetation production. so compare a protien worth pound of meat, how much vegetable sourced protien is required to meet up to it? with the amount of resources and time to produce both, simple math, go figure.

the 2nd last paragraph which i didnt rly bother to dissect since its the essense of your entire trash rage post sums up how bitter you are towards the rejection your recieved from Darklight at Facebook, he didnt need to ask us to "bully" this thread, if he wanted to bully someone, he alone would had raped the butthole off the dude he wanted to bully np without my help. What im really posting here for is, im a strict vegetarian for 5 years plus, and am still semi vegetarian even now. what ive read is a FARCE here, some vegetarians are a disgrace to share links which they have no bloody idea what it is, you want research? i gave you MY OWN bloody research thru experience, experimentation AND i dont even need someone elses research to link to you. pls dont tell me i dont read, thats some shit a 3 year old tells his friend as a retort.

you said:"he even welcome a discussion of pros and cons". IF he REALLY did welcome discussion, he would had replied my 1st post with proper answers and "his research", not ignoring it, answering "sexual" questions from happy4ever instead.

Anything else you want to say to make yourself a fool?

---

Added on August 16, 2012, 2:29 pmthx for pushing this fact obviously for those without logical thinking

some vegetarians ALWAYS forgot to take that part into consideration

the natural resources, extracts and process to produce the supplements/shakes itself consumes far more energy to be cost effective comparitively.

hence on my 1st post ive already stated, 2 protien source comparitively, meat will STILL be the more cost effective one if they know the entire process to produce both.

This post has been edited by The Amateur Working Bee: Aug 16 2012, 02:29 PM

Erm... Perhaps I am responsible with these intertwined endless debate.

[1] First of all, let me explain in mathematics.
"...about two to five times more grain is required to produce the same amount of calories through livestock as through direct grain consumption, according to Rosamond Naylor..."
In other words, 100kcal of meat is actually wasting 200kcal - 500kcal from grain.
Which means, if we can directly consume grain, we are optimizing the resources usage. And it underpinned the argument of environmental issue.

[2] Regarding to protein intake requirement, based on my experience, I only require another 1-2 scoops of whey protein to fulfill my muscle growth and recovery. And I gained 3 kg of lean mass based on grain based diet. Please go to 2nd page to see my staple food. Perhaps I can open a new thread in fitness journal section to share my progression. {my current record: 178cm, 68kg, 12.8% fat}

[3] Last time I was just like everyone, thinking vegan diet is actually a fool to "Health and fitness" route. Until I googled and found out there are many information which I never came across. Please google: "vegan body builder" to find out more!

[4] Finally, its just an exposure to you all with the valuable information. I am not earning a single cent through this. Nothing wrong about sharing knowledge, right? If you are dealing something personal, please use PM instead of spamming the thread. If interested, can try for a month and share your results as well! [Thank you mikehuan for speaking neutrally]

---

Added on August 16, 2012, 2:48 pmThank you for pointing out this particular matter, I will study on this issue.

This post has been edited by yan99033: Aug 16 2012, 02:48 PM

please do open a journal.

look son, not trying to discourage you for taking this path, it works, but if you want to post something in that context, be sure to put more info since you ARE comparing both methology. you have my support on your journey thou. as for the other dude, im too lazy & busy to argue with brainless nutheads anymore

good luck mate

REGARDLESS of the compexity to produce meat or whey, the end users need not know what involved to manufacture them.

Wouldn't it be simpler, and more logical, to simply compare prices of both items?

But I'll go for meat over whey everytime tbh. All the other nutrients in meat are important too, not just protein.

you have a point but then again this thread's context involved all of the above as an argument and comparison.

1.comparison between bodybuilding methods
2.cost effectiveness between both methods
3.the effect of it on the enviroment
4.health risks

thats why this thread is a cluster fark

anyways, he kinda gets the point i think, just let him do it his way and make his journal lor, this thread doesnt do justice to anything at all

Bee, let me make my stand perfectly clear, which I already did so on FB but somehow, it isn't getting into your heads.

I do not care if you become a meat eater/vegan and it's your choice to eat what you want to eat. Clear enough?

My point is, in this thread, yan posted about applying a vegan diet for body building and environment and he's offering here a new alternative information. I have no qualms about anyone eating meat or vegan. Neither is a wrong approach as it is your choice. But instantly dismissing an alternative choice and especially calling a person retard for the valid points that he posted is uncalled for.

It was a pure display of close mindedness to yan's offering. Subsequently, I don't see any constructive questions or a thirst for information by politely asking for more information on this path, but instead I see idiotic sex questions to poke fun at his choice.

That is my stand.

-----

You're not keeping up the news about farming. Go visit our beautiful Malaysian jungle and you can see strong and beautiful vegetations that don't need any chemical helping. A plant grown on a eco balance habitat has natural insect repellents and the plant itself is healthy and leafy. If you see insect and worm surrounding it mean the plant is dying and these insects are here to clean up to make way for healthier plants.

A true organic farming can follow this path as well.

http://www.rodaleinstitute.org/fst30years

Our vegetables are laced with pesticide and grown with artificial fertilizers, yes, and so are the meats, they are laced with antibiotics, unnatural growth hormones, and hormones that increase breasts size to produce more milk (notice the modern Americans have monster breast size?) and worst, they are fed with GMO plants. Which is of the lesser evil? I'll let you do your own research on that.

-----

mikehuang, first off, I dont see a point in this question as I am not against any meat eaters or vegan, and whether they are using supplements or not.

But the answer is yes, you can, there are plenty of protein in plants. Let's not forget that many of the largest and strongest land animals are plant eaters? Elephants, rhinos, hippos, horse...etc.

Not only they are strong, they have better endurance and stamina too compare to carnivores, which many are also strong but their energy are all in short burst.

There is a nutrition element, only available in plants, that helps in this, the same element that helps badminton players to win the rubber set match.

-----

In reference to my comment about lions being semi-veg...

There are carnivores and there are carnivores, some are meat-meat eater and others like the lion are meat-vege eaters.

Lions, tigers, cheetah etc know and they eat only plant eating animals, like zebra and wilderbeast etc.

When they kill, the first thing they eat is the stomach where the half digested vegetation are, borrowing the digestion of the plant eating animals which the lion's shorter intestine are not geared for. Yes, they kill hyenas and other meat eating animals too, but that's for territorial reasons and they don't eat them unless food is scarce.

You may notice that meat-vege eating lions and tigers have beautiful furs and skin. Wherelse the meat-meat carnivores like hyenas have ugly pigmentations and furs?

Interesting, isn't it? There's a lot more to this but it's gonna fall on deaf ears, so why bother...

-----

And ditto, Bee, I'm not interested to debate any longer with one who has already close his mind to new information.

-----

Others who are the least bit curious to find out more, I highly recommend this book -

"The Food Revolution" by author John Robbins

He is the son of one of the two founders of the ice cream company, Baskin Robbins. He decided to give up the ice cream business, went on a plant based diet and share with the world on why he did it and how you can do it. His book is filled with references to all the points he make where you can use it to do your research.

I need to end this in a peaceful way...

As I mentioned in the first place, "rethink what you are eating".
Nothing more nothing less.

BTW, after opened this thread, I'd made up my mind to switch my diet to vegetarian. I will open a new in "fitness journal" to record the milestones that I'd achieve.

Need to thank again to "working bee" to remind me about the whey protein manufacturing process. I will replace them with raw soy bean, cook and mix with my staples and see how it tastes.

Initially this thread is intended to let people with same interest to share their view, but end up...... Anyway, I learned something new. Stay foolish and keep learning!

Thank you everybody! Hope some of you can reap some benefits from this thread.

This post has been edited by yan99033: Aug 16 2012, 06:17 PM

How is my question irrelevent? U posted in the bodybuilding section, not the wildlife section.

Elephants and whatnot does not interest me. How difficult is it to answer that simple question anyways?

Yan has answered I noticed. Let's say u gain about say, 10kg more lean mass, how much would u need then?

Just visited organic store. Can't wait to share with you all for what I am practising everyday in journal section. Stay tuned and see how it works!

I think this is the best solution, people who interested can join me later! thank you.
Calorie intake, protein deficiency matter, carb intake manipulation, etc...

I have asked you the simplest question and non of it can be answered by you. How ironic that you can say I dont know how to do research.

Again, i reiterate my question:
why is the per capita of meat consumption grown so much over the years?

Answer: http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/ai407e/AI407E02.htm

Population growth, need for balanced diet, richness in iron and protein in meat, etc etc.

How is it relevant?
Because it addresses the issue of why meat consumption is still growing and in demand, inspite of your efforts to go vegan. It also shows the futility of your efforts. Why is demand growing? population expansion, consumerism, rise in income per capita, demand for balanced diet for iron and protein, etc etc. You need to address these first before proclaiming that a vegan diet is a god-send remedy to health. Far from it.


When you say eating meat contributes to cancer, you also miserably left out the additives being added into it. Processed meat is used to feed the growing demand for meat, to keep it longer and fresher, and utilize all parts of the animal to avoid wastage. But such additives are the ones that can bring in the cancer effect. But eating fresh animals freshly slaughtered dont bring such harmful effect (unless you over eat).

Also, you seem to ignore the deforestation and environmental impact of the agricultural growth.

http://wwf.panda.org/about_our_earth/about...on_agriculture/
- rise in demand for soy/coffee,palm oil, etc.
- cheap labour costs
- poor brazilian people held at gun point forced to toil soy plantation.

http://wwf.panda.org/about_our_earth/about...on_agriculture/

You see, regardless of how humans try, every action we do to save the environment, will still have its dire consequences and negative impact to the environment. Even green technologies are also polluting the environment during the manufacturing phase.

If you want everyone to go on vegan diet, do consider the volume of plantations you need, land mass and such. And not forgetting the economy will be dependant on the weather too.



Good that you asked.

This is a health and fitness section.

YET, you posted something to call for environment awareness and impact. That itself is already off tangent for the purpose of this section. Which means, you're thread is already OUT OF TOPIC since its first post.