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 STOCK MARKET DISCUSSION V124, Seems like no one want this 124...

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yok70
post Sep 5 2012, 01:25 AM

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QUOTE(SKY 1809 @ Sep 4 2012, 08:10 PM)
kinda true.

What is yr judgment on rm 6B Goodwill and 500m currency risk of IHH , mind to share  yawn.gif
*
Ok! Took a little bit of reading....actually, can only say "browsing through", since I'm too lazy to read such big paper. It's REALLY THICK!!!

Regarding the Goodwill and the currency risk. For me, I will go straight to see what the experts have to say simply because I do not have the ability to deal with those numbers and what are the better way to solve them. From an article, it seems both CIMB and HLBank researchers have not much concern on this issue. We also saw IOICorp reported huge loss on currency risk for the past few quarters, and so did some large international corporations. I don't think that would hurt too deep on them since their scale are much larger than that. Besides, IHH's net gearing is quite low actually, just 5%(FY12) and 2%(FY13). I don't see much problem to just do a re-finance to cut down the loss.

Reputation(or branding) is one very important key point in my mind regarding the "consistency" of ability in its management team. If the performance is not consistent, be it profit up 1000% (PE 0.1x) also can become meaningless if the next day they report a net loss out of nowhere. Good brand deserve much higher valuation because of this. Take a look at Nestle. 20x that time people said expensive, now 30x, still got people buying. CAGR only 8%, not 100%. People has confidence on their management, that's why they willing to pay on higher valuation. Now IHH is a great brand with good track record, and it is a large scale company. Big means something. Big means more powerful on negotiations etc. And if the management was not great, it's very hard to become this big. There must be a reason for a company to be able to grow this big.

However, I am still concern on its very rich valuation. At 17x EV/EBITDA (vs peers 13x) which projected a 3-yr earnings CAGR of 62%, that's very optimistic as world economy uncertainty still remains. Besides that I agree on most of the bright side in the paper regarding hospital business future(ie. aging population, raising medical demands in emerging markets etc.), I will not buy unless it falls to a more comfortable price for me. And, there is no dividend plans yet, although the management did mention they are not ruling out to pay certain dividend. Holding a stock long term without any dividend is kind of painful for me. laugh.gif



Boon3
post Sep 5 2012, 08:11 AM

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QUOTE(skiddtrader @ Sep 5 2012, 12:45 AM)
Nice info.

But nowadays I follow the cash flow. Revenue is one thing, collection is another.

Quite a few examples of high revenue and EPS but at last, collection is unclear and company have to correct their accounts as losses.

Muhibbah was one of the few unfortunate examples of OnG company thought to be very fortunate to have landed a huge contract in the Johor Oil Terminal project only to see the project fail. Revenue/profit has already been recorded in their books, now only waiting to see how much they have to writeback as losses once the administration of the project finances is done.

Last time Dubai financial collapse also claimed a popular KLSE company heavily concentrated in Dubai projects. Lots of revenue but at last when Dubai go holland, their receivables were unable to be converted to cash and at last de-listed in shambles.

PER is based on EPS whether future or past. But EPS is based upon revenue/profit, which does not take into consideration of whether cash is received or not. So a company can claimed it received over Rm10 bil revenue by just providing a simple receipt and then minusing their cost of operation and announced a record profit and EPS. But no money is seen.

Example:

Company A
EPS 100
PER 3x
EPS Growth 20% PA
Revenue growth 20% PA

Is the above company good? It's only good if the operational cash collection is acceptable. Meaning their sales actually can be converted into cash and not stay in their 'receivable' bracket for the longest time and the company survive only on loans/overdraft.

IMO anyway.
*
Good comments! nod.gif

* The company that got burnt in Dubai was LCL.

This post has been edited by Boon3: Sep 5 2012, 08:49 AM
Boon3
post Sep 5 2012, 08:25 AM

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QUOTE(yok70 @ Sep 5 2012, 01:25 AM)
Ok! Took a little bit of reading....actually, can only say "browsing through", since I'm too lazy to read such big paper. It's REALLY THICK!!!

Regarding the Goodwill and the currency risk. For me, I will go straight to see what the experts have to say simply because I do not have the ability to deal with those numbers and what are the better way to solve them. From an article, it seems both CIMB and HLBank researchers have not much concern on this issue. We also saw IOICorp reported huge loss on currency risk for the past few quarters, and so did some large international corporations. I don't think that would hurt too deep on them since their scale are much larger than that. Besides, IHH's net gearing is quite low actually, just 5%(FY12) and 2%(FY13). I don't see much problem to just do a re-finance to cut down the loss.

Reputation(or branding) is one very important key point in my mind regarding the "consistency" of ability in its management team. If the performance is not consistent, be it profit up 1000% (PE 0.1x) also can become meaningless if the next day they report a net loss out of nowhere. Good brand deserve much higher valuation because of this. Take a look at Nestle. 20x that time people said expensive, now 30x, still got people buying. CAGR only 8%, not 100%. People has confidence on their management, that's why they willing to pay on higher valuation. Now IHH is a great brand with good track record, and it is a large scale company. Big means something. Big means more powerful on negotiations etc. And if the management was not great, it's very hard to become this big. There must be a reason for a company to be able to grow this big. 

However, I am still concern on its very rich valuation. At 17x EV/EBITDA (vs peers 13x) which projected a 3-yr earnings CAGR of 62%, that's very optimistic as world economy uncertainty still remains. Besides that I agree on most of the bright side in the paper regarding hospital business future(ie. aging population, raising medical demands in emerging markets etc.), I will not buy unless it falls to a more comfortable price for me. And, there is no dividend plans yet, although the management did mention they are not ruling out to pay certain dividend. Holding a stock long term without any dividend is kind of painful for me.  laugh.gif
*
Goodwill should not have been used in the valuation during the IPO.
Nestle should be valuated based on its impressive CAGR.
IHH? At 17x EV/EBITDA (vs peers 13x) which projected a 3-yr earnings CAGR of 62%. ????
Why should IHH be valued using the abc soup EV/EBITDA? Unacceptable lah.
The point is simple. Goodwill at best is a one time and it should not be used in IHH valuation. Minus out the goodwill numbers, IHH is IPOed at a very expensive price based on its actual earnings.
Projected CAGR of 62% over 3 years? doh.gif
Who made that wet dream projection?



This post has been edited by Boon3: Sep 5 2012, 08:26 AM
Boon3
post Sep 5 2012, 08:27 AM

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QUOTE(DaMyst @ Sep 4 2012, 09:27 PM)
OSK ceased covering Plenitude in May 2012. smile.gif

"Discontinuing coverage, Not Rated. While we continue to like Plenitude for its strong
fundamentals thanks to  its solid balance sheet, we are discontinuing our coverage on
the company due to resource allocation on our side. As a result, we now have a Not
Rated recommendation on Plenitude. Our previous call on Plenitude was Buy with a FV
of RM2.90, based on 0.9x P/NTA on its FY12 NTA."
*
TQ! biggrin.gif


Added on September 5, 2012, 8:29 am
QUOTE(GregPG01 @ Sep 4 2012, 09:48 PM)
http://www.bursamalaysia.com/market/listed...ncements/345192

http://www.bursamalaysia.com/market/listed...ncements/332936

osk discontinued coverage.  smile.gif

Edit -> you can try to compare with Sps latest Pen land purchase...(that's the latest land del in Pen at I can recall , both not very far away from each other ...but that's this year la)
*
TQ!
Two purchase in 2010. Is that all?
That's seriously very conservative.
No wonder the earnings is so lacking compared to other property companies.

This post has been edited by Boon3: Sep 5 2012, 08:29 AM
SKY 1809
post Sep 5 2012, 08:42 AM

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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Sep 5 2012, 08:27 AM)
TQ!  biggrin.gif


Added on September 5, 2012, 8:29 am
TQ!
Two purchase in 2010. Is that all?
That's seriously very conservative.
No wonder the earnings is so lacking compared to other property companies.
*
Strangely, after taking over OSK by RHB .

The co lacks of resource allocation for research. hmm.gif

Is it a Bail out or what hmm.gif

This post has been edited by SKY 1809: Sep 5 2012, 08:43 AM
Boon3
post Sep 5 2012, 08:48 AM

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QUOTE(SKY 1809 @ Sep 5 2012, 08:42 AM)
Strangely, after taking over OSK  by RHB .

The co lacks  of resource allocation for research. hmm.gif

Is it a Bail  out or what  hmm.gif
*
Exactly. In terms of research, so hard to get more info.
Maybe company also adopting the conservative way in attracting investors. hmm.gif
SmuffyJ
post Sep 5 2012, 09:19 AM

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jcy anyone?
wenqing
post Sep 5 2012, 09:28 AM

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JCY break rm1 liau.....
SmuffyJ
post Sep 5 2012, 09:30 AM

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QUOTE(wenqing @ Sep 5 2012, 09:28 AM)
JCY break rm1 liau.....
*
u in?
wenqing
post Sep 5 2012, 09:31 AM

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QUOTE(SmuffyJ @ Sep 5 2012, 09:30 AM)
u in?
*
Heart too weak to take it.
SmuffyJ
post Sep 5 2012, 09:34 AM

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QUOTE(wenqing @ Sep 5 2012, 09:31 AM)
Heart too weak to take it.
*
haha..me too..any news?


Added on September 5, 2012, 9:38 amcan i ask the meaning of mid? at osk tracker can see the no of units being sold and bought but mid means?

This post has been edited by SmuffyJ: Sep 5 2012, 09:38 AM
BboyDora
post Sep 5 2012, 09:49 AM

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QUOTE(SmuffyJ @ Sep 5 2012, 09:19 AM)
jcy anyone?
*
I'm in . A Lil bit only. If burn also consider slight burn. smile.gif
SKY 1809
post Sep 5 2012, 09:50 AM

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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Sep 5 2012, 08:25 AM)
Goodwill should not have been used in the valuation during the IPO.
Nestle should be valuated based on its impressive CAGR.
IHH? At 17x EV/EBITDA (vs peers 13x) which projected a 3-yr earnings CAGR of 62%. ????
Why should IHH be valued using the abc soup EV/EBITDA? Unacceptable lah.
The point is simple. Goodwill at best is a one time and it should not be used in IHH valuation. Minus out the goodwill numbers, IHH is IPOed at a very expensive price based on its actual earnings.
Projected CAGR of 62% over 3 years?  doh.gif
Who made that wet dream projection?
*
U know what , IHH Intangible Assets are kinda like 13B before listing.

If u compute the NTA before listing , it is kinda negative NTA.

I do not know what is the " fair price" to buy IHH with such negative NTA.

Kinda like US Hi Tech Cos shakehead.gif

I do not think WB wants to consider such a co too hmm.gif

Can u enlighten me. notworthy.gif

This post has been edited by SKY 1809: Sep 5 2012, 02:24 PM
Madbull
post Sep 5 2012, 09:52 AM

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bad news for JCY??
wenqing
post Sep 5 2012, 09:53 AM

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Yesterday Ingen lao sai.Today JCY laosai.take turn to lao sai now??
SmuffyJ
post Sep 5 2012, 09:55 AM

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QUOTE(wenqing @ Sep 5 2012, 09:53 AM)
Yesterday Ingen lao sai.Today JCY laosai.take turn to lao sai now??
*
ingens cont lao sai now..follow jcy...
Bonescythe
post Sep 5 2012, 09:55 AM

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JCY become penny stock... Ahh.. So fast
aerobowl
post Sep 5 2012, 09:56 AM

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short JCY short JCY !!!
oops bursa cannot short
Bonescythe
post Sep 5 2012, 09:56 AM

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How low can JCY goes ah? Back to 40 cents mer?
wenqing
post Sep 5 2012, 09:56 AM

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QUOTE(aerobowl @ Sep 5 2012, 09:56 AM)
short JCY short JCY !!!
oops bursa cannot short
*
short with JCY ha biggrin.gif
JCY halfway of limit down....

This post has been edited by wenqing: Sep 5 2012, 09:58 AM

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