GSMArena publish the interview with Damian Dining, those that do not understand the technology about the 808 41MP sensor, and thought it's a 5MP should go take some time and pay attention and read it. It's informative. ESPECIALLY the person who wrote the front page article, it's so disappointing!

http://www.gsmarena.com/d_dinning_intervie...-review-728.php

Basically, the 5MP is oversampling (just imagine processing a 38/34MP image and resample (oversample) into 5MP) resulting a very high quality image.
You can still take FULL Resolution photo, which means no oversampling is done.
Besides, there's no need to take full resolution everytime, imagine the file size!

If you zoom in 5MP mode, it will reduce the oversampling as you zoom until the maximum.
The reason for this: It's like Optical zoom, but you don't need a zoom lens.
The benefit: Cheaper than investing in a optical zoom lens and maintain the size, plus, the best yet, maintain the aperture. With typical zoom lens, when you zoom, the aperture will change, thus loosing light.

For those still not understand, basically, it's really a 41MP sensor capable of capturing 38MP photo (4:3) or 34MP photo (16:9).
What it does it, it provide oversampling for lower resolution.

Just imagine N8 is 12MP, if there is oversampling, it will be for lower resolution file, not 12MP.
But, on N8 or any other camera, when you choose lower resolution mode, does it have any oversampling? That is the difference.

In short, 808 is shooting at 38MP/34MP depending on what ratio chosen.

This post has been edited by Andy214: Mar 1 2012, 11:11 AM

Yup, but let's just say, if you take at full resolution, there's no oversampling, so it's still the same as other camera.

If you max zoom at 5MP, there's also no oversampling, so it's the same 5MP file as other camera BUT
1. You zoomed 3X (similar to optical) and still have f/2.4 aperture, compared to conventional camera, the aperture would've changed, thus less light. That's one benefit and advantage.
The come up with this idea because for the past 5 years, they're trying to do an optical zoom, but it will be bulky, costly, and also the aperture problem.
With this, it's a good especially for compact size, yet have more benefits.

Sadly, many people decide to write up blogs and article without fully understanding.

In anyway, it's still a good technology and something that is really nice and interesting. Imagine implementing this technology to cameras (although I think Canon have something similar?)? I don't know why so many prejudice, maybe because it's Nokia and not Apple; If Apple, then "This Changes Everything".

http://www.gsmarena.com/d_dinning_intervie...eview-728p3.php

GSMArena: Is your oversampling technology different from pixel binning technology?

D. Dinning: Yes, it is more complicated than binning. We looked at a number of different methods how we could do this, and some methods preserve more detail, but there are generally a couple of problems here. One is that there's just something not right about the images when you use binning. I won't use the term natural, the term that we use is they are not pure. When you look at the picture, you just see the pixels that relate to the exact detail. What you end up with is you never have strong contrast and there's always a certain softness between pixels—you see three or four pixels leading from black to white. You never see black then white pixels next to each other. Whereas with oversampling, typically you can see pixels literally switch from one color to another. It's really clean.

Exactly! But what the public needs to know, it's just him, the ICON.

Sorry to say, many times, I read his remarks, I find it funny, he sounds more like a sales/marketing person. But it doesn't matter to most people anyway.
Ah... let's not go further on this.

N8 also got, I know some N8 user who already done some creative photography with it.

Err... he killed MeeGo, if not MeeGo could be one of the best OS around.
Maemo first introduced Full Flash and Social Networks Integration, then evolved into MeeGo.
Then MS also apply this "Social Networks Integration" idea into their WP OS, as People Hub.

So, it's not just camera/imaging, Nokia also come up with other nice things. But because they are not Apple, so... who cares.

Oh, didn't know about that cause didn't play with that; I just heard the N8 user talk about it.
Thanks~

Basically to understand:

As comparison with normal or phone camera, 808 can take maximum:
38MP (4:3 format)
34MP (16:9 format)

808 have this "PureView" mode, what it does is... oversample (something similar like Photoshop downsampling) the full resolution into lower resolution. E.g. 38MP --> 5MP
NOTE: You can read below my post to Agito for more information.

So, as a normal camera, it's still taking 38MP or 34MP, just like N8 taking 12MP.
With PureView, it's enhancing the photo by oversampling to lower resolution (e.g. 5MP) using Nokia's algorithm.

Now, how come the 3X zoom is lossess?
Basically Nokia want to do optical zoom 5 years back, but it will be bulky, costly, etc. you name it.
Thus, they found this solution.
In 5MP mode, with no zoom, it's at highest oversampling mode.
As you zoom, the oversampling reduces because imagine the sensor is 41MP, as you zoom, it actually utilizes the sensor area (0X zoom, you using the full area of the sensor, as you zoom, it uses less area of the sensor which is like cropping from the original full resolution).
When you're at max zoom, it will be using the 5MP area of the sensor, thus it's lossless. The quality will be like a normal 5MP WITHOUT oversampling.
If you camera with oversampled 5MP with 3X zoom 5MP (with no oversampled), you will may see some loss in quality, but it's still original 5MP.

The above, has another benefit, with conventional camera optional zoom, the aperture changes when you zoom (e.g. 3X zoom at f/5.6), BUT with above technology, the aperture didn't change at all, still at f/2.4, thus allowing in more light.

I think many people are jumping to conclusions before understanding the technology or what it is, and never tried the camera or properly review. One will sound stupid if they just simply make assumptions by just looking at the surface/cover. They should do like GSMArena, go and try and talk to the man himself, understand the technolgy and what it actually do.

http://www.gsmarena.com/d_dinning_intervie...-review-728.php

Basically, if you take a full resolution, the image quality is very normal; Their specialty is the "PureView" method, which is oversampling the full resolution into lower resolution (E.g. 38MP --> 5MP), and they're not doing pixel binning method. At least GSMArena did a very thorough interview and get a lot of information from them.

The reason they do this is to overcome the issue of introducing optical zoom into smartphones. Optical zoom will make the phone bulky, and the cost involved for the lens will be high and it's also less durable, etc.
They come up with this where you have a 41MP sensor, oversampled to 5MP, hence, you can zoom up till the max zoom which still utilizing the 5MP part of the sensor; This means, it's something like optical zoom, the only thing is, as you zoom, the oversampling reduces, when you're in max zoom, the 5MP will be like a normal 5MP quality.
Another benefit here is, the aperture is maintained compared to a conventional camera which have variable aperture optical zoom.
Now, the D800, there is option to shoot at lower resolution (e.g. 8MP), but I don't think there's any oversampling or similar applied? If there is no, imagine applying this technology which will greatly enhance the quality, image noise, etc. I think this is a NICE TO HAVE option, you can choose to have normal 8MP or oversampled 8MP.
Canon have this lossess zoom thing I think, not sure if the technology is something similar.

It's also said oversampling eliminates the Bayer Pattern problem; Below taken from White Paper:
For example, conventional 8MPix sensors include only 4Mpix green, 2Mpix red and 2Mpix blue pixels, which are interpolated to 8Mpix R, G, B image. With pixel oversampling, all pixels become true R, G, and B pixels. What’s more, based on Nyqvist theorem, youactually need oversampling for good performance. For example, audio needs to be sampled at 44 kHz to get good 22 kHz quality.

Anyway, I think this is a good and nice technology; We shouldn't look at it negatively, it would be to if it will be available as additional options in the camera, and the guy behind it is amazing too, he developed a new generation of sensor for the N9, which utilizes best of both world from 16:9 and 4:3 format.

Some Q&A from taken from GSMArena Interview:

GSMArena: If we only needed a 2MP image, for instance, we would traditionally take a full resolution shot, and then downsample it with Photoshop. Does PureView provide downsampling algorithms superior to those of Photoshop or other image editing software, effectively eliminating this step?
D. Dinning: We haven't really made that comparison. What I can say is, depending on the interpolation and downsampling you use in Photoshop, it may be possible that you'll get similar performance. But you're then handling the JPG file that was saved, so you're probably better off doing it at point of capture. I think you'll find that we probably have a different balance to what you achieve with Photoshop. How we optimize the algorithms is to retain as much of the detail as possible that we think is represented in the object, but also filter as much of the noise as possible. In Photoshop, you typically might get a sharpness that looks higher, but you might get more noise, for example. We struck a slightly different balance when we use our algorithms.


GSMArena: Let's talk about the optics. Carl Zeiss, right?
D. Dinning: Carl Zeiss, yes. The [manufacturing] precision is ten times greater than with SLR [lenses]. There are five lenses, quite small at the top, and then get progressively larger as they approach the sensor. There's also a mechanical ND filter which can be controlled in Creative mode, similar to the N8.

This post has been edited by Andy214: Mar 2 2012, 10:00 AM

Thanks. To be fair, every manufacturer has their own strength and weakness. I believe we still admit Nokia is not doing well in hardware specs department and also their OS.

Imaging is one of Nokia's strength and this 808 PureView, they spend over 5 years. Damian Dining is also an amazing person, with the N8 and the N9, he created the new generation sensor which utilizes best of both world (16:9 format and 4:3 format), which is now also applied to 808.

Thanks! Glad to hear it's still understandable.

Read my post on previous page, it's more than that, it's oversampling. When you resize, you can resample to maintain quality or make it better. In this case, PureView is making it better.

As for the lossess zoom, something like that, but it's on the sensor part.
Not sure what's difference if you crop 5MP part of 12MP on photo VS 5MP of 12MP on sensor.
If you don't zoom to max, there is still oversampling done, just reduced.

This post has been edited by Andy214: Mar 2 2012, 04:34 PM

Basically, after Nokia announce this, many people starts to question how good will it be, especially such megapixel on a small sensor (compared to a DSLR), etc. People starts to JUMP TO CONCLUSION based on their own assumptions WITHOUT finding out or read more about it, what's worst, those article writer who own blogs or popular sites, they should be more responsible. Giving false information, people who are confused or want to know, may read the false information and understand wrongly, then they will use this information and argue/debate with others.
Some people on the other hand, claims it's actually a 5MP and interpolate to higher MP, or whatever. It's really amazing how these people straight away come up with their assumptions without first finding the right information, and they can confidently tell others somemore (where is the source? Nobody question? Amazing...)

It's good to see and know that GSMArena took the step forward and ask the man himself, Damian Dining, and publish he interview with lots of good information.

No,... I've posted this on previous page... and LYN front page also make the same mistake.

http://www.gsmarena.com/d_dinning_intervie...eview-728p3.php

GSMArena: Is your oversampling technology different from pixel binning technology?
D. Dinning: Yes, it is more complicated than binning. We looked at a number of different methods how we could do this, and some methods preserve more detail, but there are generally a couple of problems here. One is that there's just something not right about the images when you use binning. I won't use the term natural, the term that we use is they are not pure. When you look at the picture, you just see the pixels that relate to the exact detail. What you end up with is you never have strong contrast and there's always a certain softness between pixels—you see three or four pixels leading from black to white. You never see black then white pixels next to each other. Whereas with oversampling, typically you can see pixels literally switch from one color to another. It's really clean.

---

Added on March 2, 2012, 4:57 pmTaken from Nokia 808 PureView White Paper:
On a more technical note...
oversampling eliminates Bayer pattern problems. For example, conventional 8MPix sensors include only
4Mpix green, 2Mpix red and 2Mpix blue pixels, which are interpolated to 8Mpix R, G, B image. With pixel
oversampling, all pixels become true R, G, and B pixels. What’s more, based on Nyqvist theorem, you
actually need oversampling for good performance. For example, audio needs to be sampled at 44 kHz
to get good 22 kHz quality.

This post has been edited by Andy214: Mar 2 2012, 04:57 PM

When I first read about the 41MP, I was also shock, and doubt how will the image look like, the quality, etc. I refrain from commenting because I don't know the details, but generally speaking, you can assume that it will not be good, but we need to see the result and what did they do, etc.
Even my friend called me with amazement and asked me, 41MP will the image be full of noise, etc. I just answered, I have no idea; BUT, if it's not good, why did they use 41MP? Surely there's something they've done that make it possible right?

Some people said the lens will not be able to resolve the details and so on; I have no idea as I don't know and haven't seen the results; If they develop this, surely they manage to do something right? Logically speaking, will they come up with something that will be bad or worst than N8? Surely there's a reason they come up with 41MP sensor, which they took years to announce.
But seems, instead of people finding out and thinking this way, they think the "simple" way (own assumption, judge by cover, etc)?

Branding also important; Many many people are actually VERY brand conscious.

If a no-brand ugly bad in pasar malam, nobody will say it's nice and willing to pay.
If you slap on the LV/Prada/etc brand tag, suddenly it become overvalue, people will say VERY THE NICE and willing to pay thousands for it.

If a not nice song is sing by nobody in YouTube, nobody cares.
If the song is sing by Justin Bieber, suddenly it become TOP 1. (of course, there're the haters, but let's not include that). Why I said this is because, there's sooo many super talented small girls who can sing high notes, sing challenging songs by famous singers and they sound mature, amazing voice, but they're not famous; Instead, the other one is.

That's why, based on this alone, how can possible one jumps to the negative conclusions right?
Obviously, there's something very wrong with those people.

Most people have doubts, even I have doubts when I hear it, how can it be? Even GSMArena, but they take the intiative and step forward and find out more from the man himself.
It's normal to have doubts and based on general understanding/knowledge, more pixels can lead to many problems. But, if we're unsure, it's better not to make conclusions and write something/publish it as it it's a fact telling the world world, making more people confused and understand the wrong thing, it will also make debates by people even worst as they read the wrong information.

Lucky this is not life related issue;
Imagine something serious like baby care, if you know something that the baby below certain age shouldn't eat (e.g. not safe), but someone use his own logic/assumption say can eat, but you refused to listen to him/her, then he/she go and write/publish that information telling people that it's safe to eat.
There're thing we may think, there's nothing wrong and think it's ok based on general assumption or logic, but without confirming or really understanding, it's dangerous to publish out that information.

This post has been edited by Andy214: Mar 2 2012, 06:22 PM

Got news that mentioned Jobs meet with the founder of Lytro (Light Field Camera; Shoot First - Focus Later). Not sure what they can come up with or will there be anything at all, but based on the Lytro device diagram, it requires good optics that is not small.

For Nokia, every series has it's specificic category:
7 series is usually the "designer" series, it's not cheap and the design usually looks "special" or "unique", designer-mah.

Before the N series, it's more clear, like 5 series, for outdoor/sports people, 6 series for working people, 8 series is the expensive/high class series, 9 series for profesionals (e.g. communicator), etc.
N series, they still maintain pretty much the same, but not as clear.

7650, 3650, 3660, 6600, 6630... N-Gage, those days, we can install N-Gage games on those other Symbian Smartphones, and the games are awesome (KOF on a smartphone yo! and you can bluetooth multiplay yo!), while others are playing ugly low end Java games, we get to play high end N-Gage games! The 6600 is the best with the "joystick". Those days... 0.3MP phone, "color screen" yo! BUT... one big problem, MONO speaker and quality is crap, when ringtone rings, it sound like "speaker pecah", many people jump ship to SE for the speaker and "K" series for the camera.

Ooops, 88mph --> travels back to current time.


Actually old or new doesn't matter; It's more important to use a better OS. In this case, Symbian VS WP? Symbian still is a better choice anytime, anyday.

With current WP, there's too much restrictions and limitations; Until MS fix this and stop COPYING iOS, it will not be any good. Imagine, you cannot even transfer a picture via bluetooth.
You connect to a PC, you cannot access the internal memory, so no access to the file, not even the Camera folder; You need to have ZUNE installed on the PC. It's just so stupid... Wait, what is a smartphone again?
This is so NOT Microsoft. They followed iOS path in delivering a stable, smooth and reliable OS, but they also follow their path in delivering the restrictions and limitations. It's like copying the advantages of something, at the same time, also copy the disadvantages.


From what we heard, it's not promising for Symbian future. It's like full force WP soon.

But, this is really a problem; If you check Nokia Malaysia FB, there seems to be many complains from loyal Nokia user for many many years; Imagine suddenly, supposedly, you "upgrade" to a new phone, but suddenly, you feel "downgraded" instead with all the limitations and restrictions. Their comments/complains on the experience is really bad, and actually I have mentioned this before, it's important how Nokia planning to get these people to change?
Let's say my uncle, who is not really exposed to the internet, and they don't do what-stupid-zune thing, what stupid SkyDrive or Cloud computing, what must-have-data thingy. They will face many issue and frustration when using Windows Phone, imagine they can't send songs, can't send pictures, etc. to their friends, wife, relatives, etc. SUCH SIMPLE TASK cannot be done easily.
In fact, there're MANY MANY such users, especially those Nokia loyal users for many many years. The buy Nokia because how great it is last time, they still can live with Symbian because they can still operate it and live with the lag/bug; It's still not as bad as the restrictions and limitations.

WP seems more suited for people who:
1. Must have a computer --> Zune
2. Must know Internet, and use WIFI or better have data plan
3. Must have WindowsLive ID

They might also need to know about SkyDrive, Marketplace and such.

Unlike Symbian, it's actually not as easy to use for the senior generations who are not well exposed and what's worst, most of them are long time loyal Nokia users; And now if Nokia decides to ditch Symbian and WP full force, they might face major issue.

It's a stupid move, especially how Jobs tries to convince his customer how EDOF is better, only his loyal blinded fans will support him, but it will do them no good because if they support and agree, means it will never change.
If it's not good, just admit and feedback, so they can change, don't blindly say good. At least now it's no longer EDOF.

The lame stupid "excuse" given was "fast, no auto-focus needed".
Errr, I can turn off auto-focus or use landscape mode, also no need to auto-focus what.
With N9, you can capture even the focus not yet lock. So, the best is, provide more options and choice for users; Not follow Mr. Jobs, don't give something then give lame "excuses".

Better get a proper notebook. Many people get a tablet, then later found that what they actually wanted was a tablet that can work like a Windows Tablet, you can install Windows Software, etc. But the tablet nowadays is not like that. Just like people who get iPhone, then they find actually they want a more PC-Like experience, instead of a multimedia player.

Back then, when smartphones were introduced, it was meant to be a "Pocket Computer", Computer in your Pocket. Manufacturers tries hard to developed an OS which can gives better experience like having a real computer in the size of the palm/ or pocketable.
Then comes Mr. Jobs, he successfully changes the world, by making an MP3 player evolved device, a smartphone; And everyone started to "desire for it"; It's main attractions is the apps/games, so as long the OS support apps/games, you don't need all those Computer Like feature/experience. Easier to develop, easier to maintain, easier to control.
Actually, many people don't really need/want a "computer like" device in a size of the palm, so the iPhone is good enough, as long as it have tons of apps/games.
For those who wanted more, will start to venture into other more flexible, customizable OS, like Androids; but there's no denying, something is still missing, you still need the computer when you can't do somethings. The same feeling goes to the Tablet, despite having a powerful Android tablet, you will feel, I can't do this, I can't do that. So, those that feel it, may eventually wanted a real Tablet.
Before these tablet, there were actually a real Tablet PC, a notebook with swivel LCD running on Windows XP.

So, for your case, better get a proper notebook than these tablets. Eventually you will find there's still many things cannot be done in these kind of tablet, which are still worst than a netbook.

The 808 is still not yet final; As Damian Dining mentioned, they're still working on improving on the noise reduction area.

---

Added on March 6, 2012, 4:20 pmTablet
1. No proper or good software compared to a PC one.
2. You cannot simple rest your hand on the screen. (you need to train and learn or possibly wear something?)
3. Somehow drawing feel is a bit different, it doesn't draw as smoothly as you might expect, how it's drawn on the screen as your sketch. Not sure how to explain, you should try it yourself.
But the difference is you draw on the display itself, compared to the drawing tablet. Drawing tablet you draw on the tablet, output is on monitor; I tried few times, cannot get use to it, lol.

Anyway, you can still draw on tablet, then transfer the work to your PC for further editing or whatever you want to do which cannot be done on the tablet.

But personally, the tablet is still not for serious use, more for leisure, web browsing, etc. Even Web Browsing, there's still things you can do; E.g. You still go to PC to organize your FB Albums? or adjust something for your FB?
Despite having such powerful tablet, it's still cannot provide a better or closer PC like experience. If you're outdoor with no access to PC, you need to wait till you go back only can do this or that.



This post has been edited by Andy214: Mar 6 2012, 04:20 PM

Not yet, but for general use maybe yes; For those serious work, they might find some lacking feature, need those pros or work in this field to comment. But as a feature, it can be added, but in terms of usage, it maybe different as the feels and how it actually draw out is a bit, urm, different, not really sure how to explain; But then, just lik a drawing tablet, it will take some time to get use to and/or adjust. Another issue is resting your hand on the display.

This post has been edited by Andy214: Mar 6 2012, 04:49 PM