CK needs 10 boxes to house all his collection.... lol

Colour me damned, I just realized I bought a shit Rolex for my Dad,
Passed a garbage Rolex to my wife and wearing a shit Rolex myself.



And, just for discussions sake, as much as you don't like a particular brand, at least have the decency to not label things like shit or garbage, as everyone have their own taste and preferences.... if not, we would all be stuck with 1 watch brand with 1 design.

As industrialization has it, most if not everything is mass produced.
What constitute mass produce? Anything more than 2000? 200k? 2 million?
I would say all of the above.

Brands that you mentioned, are they not mass produced?
Something not seen in the wild does not mean that they are not mass produced. It just means that they are not affordable to the masses.

Statements about price points or wether a watch is "worth" what they are selling it for is subjective.
Some ppl think that an entry level Pam or Rolex at 15k or so is overpriced, obviously some do not. And that is why they are selling as much as they produce.

As much as watch companies make you believe that each and every watch is handcrafted, it is all humbug... the retail price of the watch does not correlate with the cost it takes to produce it.
Watch companies will charge whatever they think the market will support and get away with it. Most of the time they do.

Okay. I'll come back with more reasons, I promise. I love this discussion thingy, as I'm a huge fan of watches.

I am sure all will be waiting

Let's compare mass production to non-mass-production items in general.

Why don't you buy a Swatch? Swatch Group owns ETA. Which means ETA is in-house mechanical movement for Swatch. There are Swatch models out there within the -4+6sec guideline. Why buy Rolex?

From what you say, shouldn't you be buying Swatch as well? Why Glashutte? Why Patek? Why IWC?

Why buy Mercedes/BMW/etc. when you can buy Proton? Mass produced ... CamPro is a technology developed by Renault, but the patent has been bought over by Proton ... so they own the rights to it ... and it is widely considered/claimed by Proton to be their in-house engine ...

All cars are mass produced, even Ferrari or Bentley or Rolls Royce. Wether anyone claims Campro is in house by proton or not is irrelevant.
Your example can be said of IWC as well as some IWC models are using modified ETAs and then claimed as in house? This in house thing is blown out of proportions. I can say that Seiko is as in house as they get. They even make their own lubricant for the movements.
IWC, Patek, Glashutte still outsource some parts from outside... so this is what you call in house?
You wanna go deeper? Do they mine their own steel? Grow cattle to make the straps for the watches? Another humbug "in house" argument.
As to why buy luxury cars when a Proton can do the same job?
Simple, because some can afford it.
As to how they spend their money, it is their god given rights.
We can say all we want but in the end of the day, they are driving the Merc and BMW, not us.

Think economics ... once an item has been produced in mass quantity, price tend to fall ... You can't design a movement 20 years ago, and sell for 20k back then (today's currency with inflation factored in), and sell the same movement for 20k today after selling millions of the same product. Initial cost should be high, because companies need to recoup their investment in research and development ...

Think economics, what you mentioned only works in the electronics and gadget sector.
Who are we to say what watch companies can or can't do? Hell they're doing it... and it's still working.
Prices of watches are not something that can be calculated based on materials or movements.

IWC / Patek / etc. always come out with new models, with new movements or upgraded/modified/etc. which justifies the whole cost thing ...

If you think that new movements upgraded or modified is justified for the price of a watch, then you have the right to believe so.
But in actual fact, luxury watch prices are never justified. It's a business, they are in it to make money.
No matter how much they make you believe that your watch has a special movement or whatnot, it's all marketing gimmick.
Watches are personal, some ppl like this and some like that. No 2 person are alike.
Some value watches on brand alone, some like designs no matter what brand, some like theirs expensive, some like theirs affordable and dependable.
BTW, there's a saying "why recreate the wheel?"
Rolex designs is stale but they make improvements all the time.
Alot of people do not know and Roles is a very secretive company.
Name me 1 watch that can look good on anyone male or female thin or fat tall or short? I can... A Rolex Submariner.

Another example ... Will you pay RM300k for latest Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution that's using the first generation Evo engine? Technology advances ... todays in-line 4 - 2.4L engines easily get you 30+miles per gallon ... back then, 20-30 years ago even 1.8L engines can't get 20+miles per gallon ... I just refuse to pay today's technology price, for old technology ...

The best a Rolex could do is 40-70 hours Power Reserve ... the best IWC can do is 7-8 days power reserve ... Patek and Breguet does 10 days ... back then 40 hours Power Reserve is pretty damn good ... but today's standard, at least to me ... for a watch lover, who wears different watch everyday ... go for higher Power Reserve ... or buy em' mechanical boxes ...

So from what you're saying, longer power reserve (30+ miles per gallon) = new technology
Short power reserve (20+ miles a gallon) = low technology?
Internal Combustion Engine alone is low tech, no matter how many miles you can squeeze out of a gallon.
Same like the swiss pellet fork and wheel escapement.
And most watches is using it even the brands that you named that get's your respect so much.
Longer power reserve? Add in an extra mainspring barrel and power reserve is at least doubled or more.
It's just like adding another fuel tank. Of course fuel costs money but the winding of the watch doesn't. But you get the drift.

More to come ...

Oh yeah I forgot ... I love em' German made watches "Lange and Sohne" and "Glashutte Original" ... I love em' Grand Lange 1
However, I will give credit when credit is due ... Rolex are great diving watches ... and it's rugged ...

But when you pay such price for a watch, a watch should represent you ... Rolex makes you look rugged ... but I prefer a watch that represents me ... "CLASS" ...

A watch does not represent you. It just represent that you like to tell time by looking at your wrists.
A person wearing a Seiko can have "class" because when you carry yourself well, well mannered with a good personality. Then you have class.
A Taikor AhLong Loanshark can have plenty of money to afford a Grand Lange 1 or a Frank Muller Giga Tourbillion but does he instantly have "class" ?

People who "knows" mechanical watches will know that Rolex is a pioneer of alot of what we see in today's watches.
People who thinks Rolex is famous because of the celebrity it endorses does not "know" watches.
Let me ask you something, when you buy your Tag Kirium, what makes you choose it? Brand recognition? Design?
I do not know but what I know is most of the consumer was like how you were 8 years ago.
And in one way or another you are also sucked in by these adverts.
That's how you can quote Patek's tagline.
How many will take the extra steps to find out what goes behind a brand name? Most won't.
What people know is normally what the salespeople tell them, and the salespeople will say anything to move watches.

People in WUS bashing Rolex? Well, on the internet, we can find anyone bashing anything... nothing is perfect but we should not take it at face value.
A true watch lover will not laugh at what other people have on the wrists, they will appreciate a person's unique taste and what he chooses.
A true watch lover will appreciate everything about watches. The beauty, history, work and most of all is emotional attachment.
A Grandpa's or Dad's heirloom Seiko will worth more than anything in the world because it carries sentimental value and history with it.
You remember seeing it on their wrists all the time and now it has passed to you.
It's no Patek but it's your Grandpa's watch.

Any watch lover will look at 2nd hand because it is just another way of getting a watch that is either out of circulation or discontinued.
Every watch lover will think that the next watch they buy will be the last and they will pass it on to the next generation but in actual fact, when one "grail" watch have been bought, another "grail" mysteriously appears and the lust continues.
In the end, the one that your next generation remembers is the G-shock or Seiko beater that you wear most of the time because the more expensive ones were never worn that frequently.

No offence but I find it comical that you have learnt how to appreciate fine watches for 5 years.
Oh, and a BMW will not get you noticed... it's just a BMW... I can drive my el cheapo rusted Datsun with rainbow paint job and a hello kitty stickers and get noticed more.
As for watches, believe it or not, for every 100 people you meet everyday, most of the time, maybe not 1 will ask what you're wearing or notice what you're wearing.

This post has been edited by hanz079: Nov 26 2011, 07:26 PM

That's more like a civilized discussion.
As for the IWC 7 days, I don't own one but I am sure they are smashing watches.
But they do receive complains on being inaccurate.
Not within COSC but I am not sure about wether the movement is COSC certified?

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f350/7-day-mo...oll-331774.html

Anyway, I got commented that my watch is a fake the other day when I was wearing this.



He said that I wear it on a fabric strap because the bracelet quality is the easiest way to spot a fake.
That's why I wear it on "fabric strap"
He's wearing an Omega Planet Ocean and he thinks the co-axial escapement is the "greatest" invention in the world of watchmaking.
Uhhh.... ok... he is entitled to his opinion.

I would love to own an IWC Inge one day.

About getting your hands chopped off over a Rolex, I have no such fears as I drive a Proton and most will think it's fake.
Anyone and everyone knows Rolex... that's the brand.
It's their success and also a curse sometimes.

This post has been edited by hanz079: Nov 26 2011, 09:03 PM

Let's not forget, because Swatch group owns ETA and Breguet, Blancpain, Glashütte Original, Jaquet Droz, Léon Hatot, Omega, Longines, Rado, Union Glashütte, Tissot, Calvin Klein Watches, Balmain, Certina, Mido, Hamilton, Swatch, Flik Flak, Endura and Tourbillon, it means that all these brands technically are using "in-house" movement.

Man, this "in house" thing is getting pretty tiring ain't it?

All the brands under Swatch group are using in house movements.
Reason being Swatch owns ETA and ETA manufactures movements.

A stock ETA movement with improvements and modifications also considered in house.
Reason being because the watch manufacturer said so.

A base movement bought from Seiko and then modified also considered in house.
Reason being the Boss at Tag said that the improvements made to the movement is enough to consider the movement "100% in house" (that's what the brochure said)

All Seiko watches using in house designed and manufactured movements down to the hairspring and lubricant.
Yet most people have no clue.

Go figure man....

I remember back in the days when people are arguing over what constitutes "Swiss Made"

This post has been edited by hanz079: Nov 26 2011, 10:12 PM

Yes I agree...

Let me start.
Since there's alot of talk on in house, I hope my watches are up to standard.

My Zenith Chronomaster El Primero XXT.


And my old Zenith El Primero HW. (uses the same base movement as the Daytona. Only without the automatic winding)

Online from their website.
Page 1 Post 1 has the link.

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Added on November 27, 2011, 9:46 amNo lah. I don't anyone is here looking for enemies.
Maybe just a couple of wrong choice words.

This post has been edited by hanz079: Nov 27 2011, 09:46 AM

I guess using cars as comparisons is the way to go now yeah?
As a watch lover, I don't see any problems using generic ETA movements.
Reasons being if they are well regulated and using COSC grade, the movements are easier to service, costs less to service, better parts availability.
It would be glamorous to own a watch using a super high end movement with exotic material like silicium or whatever.
But when it comes to servicing, there's where the headache starts.
But of course, a person that can afford a high end watch should not worry about servicing costs right?
No owner of a Bugatti Veyron or a GTR is gonna whine on the service cost. But Those cars are for a niche market.

Same goes for watches.
Some watches are marketed at niche markets and they cost a bomb.
Exclusivity is the selling point.
But if we look at the general public. What are people looking for?
A watch that is beautiful, robust, easy to service and reliable.
How many watches out there fit the bill?
And I am talking about tried and tested here...

Regarding people on the street knowing Rolex. Yes, most know Rolex.
Wear one and without telling anyone it's a Rolex, I can assure you most don't know that it's a Rolex, and I am not talking about blinged out solid gold Rolexes... those are dead giveaways. Try wearing a stainless steel one.
Knowing the brand and recognizing it on the wrist is 2 different things.

I don't think so, Steinhart and UHR are both using ETA movements.
Spare parts should be aplenty.
Regarding the servicing, any seasoned watch technician can do the job.

I was under the impression that any layman from the wet market can recognize a Rolex.
Sorry, my mistake.
Anyway, did you ever asked your bro why he chose a Rolex?
Why didn't you advice him against it?
Since you don't like Rolex, being siblings... surely there is some talk about watches?
Just wondering, that's all.

Yalor... did not know he lepak here too... lol

Bro, if the whole "discussion" started with a good choice of words and sensible post, all this would not happen.
Just to let you know that not all Rolex owners are in it to "be seen"... it's just the perception that you have.
Just because your bro wearing a Rolex wishes to "be seen" does not mean everyone is.
Ah few towkays wearing blinged out solid gold Rolexes and when time are tough, pawned them for a decent amount does not mean every Rolex owners are looking to buy Rolex for the 2nd hand value. But it is a bonus, and that is a fact.
If you can respect your bro wearing a Rolex, why did you label that as shit or garbage?
Did you try saying that in front of your bro? I am sure you didn't.
But that kind of statements in an open forum about watches is bound to attract some unwanted attention.
Since there is an apology post earlier, let's just move on.

Arguments about "mass produced" and "in-house" have been beaten to death already.
Fact is everything is mass produced nowadays, there's nothing much we can do about it.
You can say that you can buy whatever you want with your own hard earned money, we respect that, but why can you not respect other people buying what they like with theirs?
Doesn't feel good when people start bashing your purchase choices right?

Since you mentioned that respect is not to be given, it is earned. Show respect and get respect. Simple as that.
The way I see it, the whole issue have been dragging on for longer that it should.

If anyone here would like to talk watches and history and whatnot, everyone if not most would be happy to join in such a discussion.
No problem about accepting other ppl's opinion here, just mind the words that are being used.
You came in here flashing your IWC 7days and your supposedly superior knowledge and views regarding movements and watches, but it turned out you don't know very much about the history of the brand you despise so much.
Your views are so skewed that you associate a brand with wet market fruit sellers and such.

Now I would not go and label all IWC 7days owners to be like you, because I know silverstan is not.

I personally am not a fan of Panerai.
But does it gives me the right to bash Panerai? I am sure that they are some PAM owners here that are in it not because they are the hottest watch at this moment but because they respect and associate the brand with the Italian Heritage.
I respect that.
But then there are also those that snap up PAMs knowing nothing and just because everyone is jumping on the bandwagon, there go go... And they go around preaching about their purchase and saying other brands or watches are not up to par. That is not right at all.

So, let's just keep the discussions sensible with no personal attacks and please do not drag mom's and dad's and sister's into the fray. They got nothing to do with this.

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Added on November 29, 2011, 10:52 amYear end coming. Yes... which means bonus time... which means that it's time for a splurge!!! lol
No poison necessary as target is already on the crosshair.... waiting for the bullets and then trigger can be pulled.
Just hope no straying away from the original intent though.
Once bullets are here, targets seems to increase... funny how the world works.

This post has been edited by hanz079: Nov 29 2011, 10:52 AM

A lolek lor...

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Added on November 29, 2011, 11:10 amHey, eventhough I also appeared in the papers countless times arrested for drunk driving and money laundering... I am a nice guy... really... believe me...

This post has been edited by hanz079: Nov 29 2011, 11:10 AM

OK lah... let's talk about something else... since year end is coming and bonus time is awfully near.
I am sure most if not all have purchases lined up right?
Come share la.

I found out about this thread last year around this time too...
Asked around for opinions and bought myself a Zenith EP HW.
1 year have passed and this thread have brought me to MWF and it's been a great journey.

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Added on November 29, 2011, 11:17 amI am not into two tone watches.... yet... maybe when I am in my early fifties or retired... will suit me more.
Not going for premium priced ones at the moment.
It's going to be the GMTII ceramic.
Tried it on when I got my sub serviced last month and can't stop dreaming bout it...

This post has been edited by hanz079: Nov 29 2011, 11:17 AM

No bullet how to pull trigger bro? Rubber bullets ar?

What?! The YMII TT retails higher than a DaytonaC? What's the world coming to?
Yeah, I "bought" the Polar and Noir 16570 but the Polar is extorted by my Dad and the Noir is robbed by my wife.
So I am left with a old Sub.
Not into 2 tones or gold ones at the moment.
I reckon more nearer to retirement age that I will look at those.

A was quoted RM24500 for the GMTIIc at a local retailer.
RRP is 24888 or something like that.
I will push for more discounts when I bring in cold hard cash.
No use talking price when wallet empty...

This post has been edited by hanz079: Nov 29 2011, 11:35 AM

Yup. It's either there or Cortina... and Cortina ain't got any in stock...

Pic or it didn't happen... lol