I think he overcomplicates simple protocols.

No it won't.

*carbs cos insulin spike.
-protein is insulinogenic as well
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20456814

*insulin is a fat storage hormones.
-The body has nutrient transport proteins that allow fat storage in the complete absence of insulin. ASP.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2693569


*insulin blunts fat oxidation and lipolysis.
-this statement is true, but its overly simplistic. There are times when lipolysis exceeds lipogenesis, meaning over a 24hour period, it doesn't matter. Therefore, overall intake is what matters and not periods of supposed insulin "spikes". Area under the curve.
-fat suppresses HSL activity as well when insulin is level is low.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9950782...Pubmed_RVDocSum

I have not seen any scientific research that shows a relationship between blood type and metabolism. Sounds like pseudo-scientific nonsense.

Why didn't you keep it simple then? The dude asked about cutting and you made no mention of, fat loss is down to caloric restriction, which is as basic as you can get. I agree with your recommendations about higher carb, lower fat on workout days and opposite on rest days. It makes sense for optimum performance. However the assertions you made about insulin is not entirely correct or without proper context, which is what I disagreed with.

There are many people who reads the posts in this forum, and when information is presented badly, others will be thinking "shit! i'm doing it wrong, i have to fix this". Then they're going to change what could be a pattern that works very well for them based on that information.

As far as pics is concerned, the reason I don't post pics is to keep my anonymity. I don't see that pattern breaking anytime soon.

@Mike
The bit about insulin. Go back to my previous post with the citations.
http://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...post&p=49324611

With regards to badly presented information.
-he made a recommendation and justifies it in a manor that is false and contradictory.
-made no mention of overfeeding, just short term effects of insulin.


@darklight79
Why is my pic relevant in this case? Are you deflecting by asking for my pic? I now feel more put off because I fear others are waiting to launch personal attacks based on what I look like and not the information I present. Lets not go down this road. I could post a pic, just not in this situation.
I don't think I was being disrespectful towards you in any way. In fact, I have great respect for you with regards to what you have achieved with your physique. I just disagreed with your assertions and I think I did well to put some perspective in it. Please don't take my disagreement as an insult. It was not my intent. For all we know, someone else is reading that post, being stressed out over how they can stop insulin "spikes", without thinking about a having caloric deficit to achieve fat loss. You can't escape thermodynamics.

Alright. Later in the evening.

Point 1
-which further reinforces the point that insulin "spike" is irrelevant, because protein is also insulinogenic

Point 2
-The point i was trying to make was that insulin is not the only thing that stores fat. ASP can also lead to fat being stored without the presence of insulin. Fat intake stimulates ASP.
-That is correct, but lets put it into perspective. Insulins primary role is transporting glucose from blood into, muscle and fat cells. It goes into the fat cells, when glycogen is repleted. Accumulation of fat is dictated by the balance between lipogenesis and lipolysis. Of course if overall lipogenesis exceeds overall lipolysis, you just gained fat. Now do you see why thinking about caloric intake is more important than thinking about subtle processes that you have no control over.

Point 3
Irrespective of the number of meals, there are times when lipolysis exceeds lipogenesis. During sleep for example. Again, overall caloric intake is more important, than subtle processes.
I tried reading that article from T-Nation, but unfortunately when it came to the part about slow cooking yourself to death, my patience wore off. I believe most articles from T-Nation is horrible, at least the ones I've seen. The author failed to back their position with relevant citation, and going off "logic" most of the time. And then they went on to talk about diabetes, which is funny because the bodybuilding and fitness population is the least prone to insulin resistance.

I did notice 1 study that was cited there. Which was this:
[Effect of meal frequency on glucose and insulin excursions over the course of a day]
http://www.e-spenjournal.org/article/S1751...0054-5/abstract

Now this study slaps the dogma in the face that is eating every 2-3 hours is a way to control blood glucose. Interesting isn't it. Just goes to show that the common advice of meal frequency to control blood glucose is bullshit. It showed that frequent feedings of CHO meals has more elevated levels on blood glucose (no shit) compared to fewer feedings, with no difference in insulin.

By request of DL.
Inb4, do you even lift?

Thanks guys for the compliments.

Refers to fat loss.

I practice IF myself and love it, suits my lifestyle perfectly. Don't know enough about carb backloading, from what I gather its a method for recomp. Looks like a fancy way of promoting cyclical diet, which is how recomp is achieved.

yes proteins can elevate insulin despite having very little effect on blood glucose. Leucine stimulates insulin production.

GI measures the effect on blood glucose not insulin. Thats why protein has low GI. For insulin there is the insulin index.

Nothing wrong with manipulating macros. You would be doing that. Fat loss is down to caloric restriction and your macros should reflect that.

Not necessarily.

How did you take a very simple concept and went completely brotard on it.

*My take is, all food had insulin spike (IS)
-Duh! Insulin is elevated in response to meals in healthy individuals.

*what we want to control the amount of insulin spike.
-for what reason? are you diabetic? what makes you think that you can control it enough to have a significant impact? you will need pharmacological doses of insulin through some sort of infusion to have a significant effect on MPS.

*you dont want to take whey together with regular meal.
-why not? what is the composition of said regular meal. do you think your "regular meal" without the whey will have no impact on insulin?

*again when i the best time for a IS is right after workout because you want to also carry all the valuable nutrition for muscle buildings.
-insulin elevation stops muscle protein breakdown, it makes sense. It is something that is usually overblown. A protein sufficient meal itself will exert any anti-catabolic effects. You don't even need mad "insulin spiking" carbs.

*There problem here is, all this analogical method doesnt work for everyone everytime, meaning it defers from a beginner to seasoned lifter and to a lean person.
-what the hell is that gibberish supposed to mean? General methods work across the board, only the finer points differ.

*A very lean person like DL, do not need to care much because the energy burned w/i 24hrs way much greater compared to a beginner and high fat person (~>20%bf).
-Maybe because DL is beast carrying an insane amount of LBM, therefore making his energy needs high. What is your point exactly?

*generally I keep my intake intact with
protein: meat,, milk, egg, nuts
carb: rice, nuts
fat: from all the raw oils and nuts
-lol, that looks extremely boring and unpalatable. you trying to be hardcore?

*i think supplements are overrated for general population.
-depends on what supplements we are talking about. Is fish oil overrated? Is creatine overrated? Don't make blanket statements.

You pretty much nailed it with the first 2 statements.

Regarding IF, yes it limits the amount of meals due to short feeding window, but it does not change the fact that you still have to consume all your calories in that feeding window.

Watermarking is not for the purpose of authenticity. It is to prevent misuse.

ok. i'll admit. I may have come off like an ass. For that I apologize. What did you expect though. You made a very poorly written post in response to mine which I deconstructed and presented valid points to counter yours. You still failed to address it and continue to beat around the bush. Word of advice, if you want to continue to discuss the fine details of human physiology, you better know what you are talking about. Apparently you don't. I'm still going to deconstruct this.

*IS signals our body of energy abundance is readily available and that it should stop burning fat and start storing.
-You accuse me of failing to understand the context of your sentence. When it is poorly written like this, how do you expect me to? Lets keep this simple. You eat, pancreas senses rise in blood glucose and secretes insulin. Simple enough? Thats the way the signalling works. I'll leave out the details since it might confuse you even further.

*IS causes too much blood sugar to be transported out of our blood and this results in our blood sugar and insulin levels dropping below normal. The cause of this is would be leaving one feeling tired and hungry and would want to eat more after the settles.
-Utter nonsense. Insulin acutely suppresses appetite. This is proven by research. Stop making false assertions.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1693317...m&ordinalpos=66

*This is where the intake of fiber helps regulating digestion and keep IS in check.
-There is plenty of benefits of having a good amount of fiber in your diet. Keeping insulin spike in check, is not one of them.

*Also This is where smaller meals comes in handy as well, as what you did before, correct? What made you stop and when did you stop your 6 meals aday?
-Did you completely ignore the study i posted in my previous post which you quoted? What makes you think I was eating 6 meals a day? The most I have ever done is 5. Here it is:
http://www.e-spenjournal.org/article/S1751...0054-5/abstract

*I indicated the source of intakes for P/C/F and not as a meal! hence my statement supplement are overated. I didnt include vit and minerals as supplements. For general muscle building, I still standby that we need not take an additional supply, since we could get it from our daily food itself.
-No you didn't. You made a very general statement. Nonetheless, I am in agreement with your current statement.

*As for your IF, how long fasting do you go?
-Typically 16hours, but I have done up to 20.

This post has been edited by darkseifer: Feb 29 2012, 04:53 PM

Well now. Just because you know something works, doesn't mean you understand the underlying physiological effects. You still continue to make unsubstantiated claims and repeating the same garbage despite me providing undeniable evidence. I'm talking about actual peer reviewed science, it's not the be all end all, but a lot better then stuff people read on a website or blog. I have no issues with people sharing stuff they've heard, but the burden of proof of what they're saying is on them, should someone call them on it. The article you posted is full of pseudo-scientific dog crap. None of it substantiated. This is my last response to you. It is clear you are making no attempt to back up your claim with hard evidence. Good luck to you and your goals.

For those who are interested.
High sugar foods make you hungry? How bout no.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17923862
Conclusion:
This study provides no evidence to support an effect of a reduced GI diet on satiety, energy intake or body weight in overweight/obese women. Claims that the GI of the diet per se may have specific effects on body weight may therefore be misleading.

Controlling insulin?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14522732
Results: The GI of CF was more than twice that of BC (131.5 ± 33.0 compared with 54.5 ± 7.2; P < 0.05), despite no significant differences in the rate of appearance of glucose into the plasma during the 180-min period. Postprandial hyperinsulinemia occurred earlier with BC than with CF, resulting in a 76% higher plasma insulin concentration at 20 min (20.4 ± 4.5 compared with 11.6 ± 2.1 µU/mL; P < 0.05). This was associated with a 31% higher rate of disappearance of glucose with BC than with CF during the 30–60-min period (28.7 ± 3.1 compared with 21.9 ± 3.1 µmol · kg-1 · min-1; P < 0.05).

Conclusion: The lower GI of BC than of CF was not due to a lower rate of appearance of glucose but instead to an earlier postprandial hyperinsulinemia and an earlier increase in the rate of disappearance of glucose, which attenuated the increase in the plasma glucose concentration.

Empirical research especially controlled trials (not talking about observational or behavioral studies) gives us a pretty good idea of what is true and what is propaganda. For example, the claim that meal frequency boost metabolism has been debunked numerous times by metabolic ward studies, yet that misinformation still gets perpetuated.
Supplement companies usually makes bogus claims which can't be substantiated. If they did cite a study, it is usually funded by them, with poorly designed methods and not peer reviewed.

Well I agree, we don't need to be talking about insulin and what not. That crap does not matter. However, there is misinformation being perpetuated, and I feel the need to address it. Probably shouldn't waste my time with it, but I guess like most people, I'm very sensitive to bullshit.

So If you're trying to say forget the nonsense we can't control and just eat right, train hard, then hell yeah! I agree.

on paper studies have shown that there is a higher degree of pec recruitment in the decline bench press, though not by much. It is usually overblown by most people. Pick an exercise and focus on progressively getting stronger. Thats my take.

i do utilize IF, but have never promoted it and martin has only posted 1 study. There are more than 10 studies done that I am aware of, all i discovered long before I found leangains.
I never said meal frequency is crap. One should not make that kind of blanket statements. It has its place. Like you said, there are many ways to skin a cat, but there is only a small list of things that is necessary.

One should focus on the necessities first and customize the personal preference aspects (in this list i include, timing, frequency, food choices) to give you the best adherence or most enjoyment possible out of your journey. That is what i've been pushing all along.

but then you might snap some shit up.

I normally avoid this part. I don't like listing my credentials because I feel that it does not represent my knowledge. It does give you some sort of face value, but it only says that you're good at sticking to the curriculum of your course. With that being said. I have a bs in physiology and currently pursuing my masters.