Hey,

in this thread i'd like to share my views on the terran matchups, especially Terran vs Protoss. Everything i will be talking about is just my oppinion and i'm open to discussion.

(Excuse me if the english is not perfect)

1 Introduction, StarCraft 2 philosophy?

First off, i'd like to mention that i'm not gonna talk about balance. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the state of Terran, especially TvP matchup game-design and gameplay wise.

I believe blizzards intended to make sc2 a fast paced game, which means they wanted to make low tier units useful, Marine+Marauder being the prime example of that. It means that there's rarely a passage in the game where nothing is happening (on the pro level). But does this hurt the game? Are low tier units too strong?

Also it seems blizzard wants to make as many units viable as possible in all matchups so they can have variety in the gameplay. In BW, that was not the case, as marines were almost useless in both TvT and TvP besides couple timing attacks (f.e. Deep6). I believe sc2 TvP has the similar issue, but i'll get to that later.


2 Terran in SC2

This thread is a result of my frustration with TvP. I used to play BroodWar where Terran was often the one who would defend and expand with a lot of harassment (TvP, TvT), or would go for timing attacks to gain the upper hand (TvZ). Terran was strong in both midgame and lategame thanks to wide range of units. I believe the same cannot be said about terran in SC2. In my oppinion, terran in sc2 is the strongest in early and midgame due to strong low tier units (marines+marauders) and also thanks to MULEs, which allow you to run low on SCVs and focus on making more units. In result, terran allins are very powerful.

3 Terran matchups and variety

3.1 TvT and TvZ

Current TvT and TvZ looks good to me. In both matchups there's a wide range of strategies that are viable. Bio+mech and Pure mech being the most popular. Both macro games and 2base timing attacks can be seen. In TvT there's a lot of tank positioning, controling ground and eventually switching to powerful air units (+ nukes). In TvZ, using marines early on to pressure zerg, then switching to either mech or marine tank compositions, with ghosts (and quite possibly ravens) as the ultimate tech vs T3
zerg units. Again, a lot of tanks positioning go gain ground and using the map to your advantage as much as possible. TvZ is also very micro intensive, as not paying an attention for a second can cause all your marines to blow up to couple of banelings.

From spectator point of view, both TvT and TvZ are quite exciting i think, especially TvZ, because TvT can be a bit dull sometimes (mech vs mech).

I'd consider TvZ the closest to BW TvZ as it's very micro intensive, requires a lot of multitasking and there are strong timing attacks and precise scouting is required. Good control (micro marines and target firing with tanks) can win you games which is for me one of the most important factors in the game. TvT, especially mech vs mech is very close to BW TvT as well.

PS. i make these comparisons because i used to play BW for years and because it was such a great game and i knew i can always improve my timing, my transitioning and my control (micro) it drove me on to practice more and more.

3.2 TvP

Now to the main issue i have with terran in SC2. If we consider korean pros (GSL), unless going for 1-1-1, we see MMM viking ghost for 95% games (a very nice exception being Byun vs OZ from Code A, VOD is free and can be found here). Even then though, it's only a 2base timing attack and cannot be considered as standart TvP build.

I talked about TvZ and TvT. Do you know what those matchups have in common? Tanks. Tanks made BW so awesome. Tanks make TvZ and TvT in SC2 very fun to play/watch. You can control ground, abuse the terrain, siege. They take a lot of skill to play with but the reward is high, but not in TvP. It's quite sad but almost every protoss unit counters them. Do you remember when tanks did 60 damage? Good times. They were actually quite useful back then. Right now, i wanna cry every time i have 20 of them slaughtered in 10 seconds.

I must admit, on some maps, tanks are quite viable. For example, on Shakuras, it's possible to play marine tank with support (ghost/banshee) - an example is a game from Shoutcraft 3 DDE vs Socke (VOD). Unfortunately, on most maps it's suicidide to go anything but bio (f.e. Taldarim). It works well on Shakuras because there's not much room to blink harass and 3base is quite safe, then split map situation favors terran.

So what is the reason TvP is all bio? Marauders and warpgates. It's unfortunate that TvP got screwed because tanks were "too strong" in TvZ and were nerfed. Marauders are much more cost effective vs protoss. Hell i hate them, marauders. Such a boring unit. Even more than collosus. You make marine marauder then switch to marine marauder and in late game transition into marine marauder, errrr wait a minute...there's just no option like in other matchups.Warpgates is in my oppinion the worst game mechanic they could put into the game, but that has been discussed to death. I really DO HOPE they will change it in HoTS, but i don't expect so.

Another issue i have with TvP is there's minimum micro in fights, all you do is make concave before the fight them stim and run in. Cast some emps. Then you watch if you have enough or not. Theres no micro against banelings or infestors like in TvZ. Micro will never save your ass like in TvZ. Good position will never save your ass like in TvT, because you have no tanks, and warpgates are pretty good eh! Nothings angers me more than cutting off protoss expo from his main army and have 20 zealots warped in to my back, same with drops.

How about you having wrong unit composition? He has collosus and you have no vikings? You lose. He has storms and you have no EMPs? You lose. Remember when in BW you had no tanks but you could still kill lurkers with godly micro? Or when you have too many vultures against a lot of dragoons but not enough tanks, you would go in and surround with mines and then 10 goons turned to blue goo? I want THAT!


4 Conclusion

Solution? I don't thing there's any at the moment. Wait for HoTS for a new unit that will complement tanks just like vultures with mines? I don't hold my hopes high. Besides map specific strategies i don't see any solution at the moment, unless some things are adjusted (tanks, warpgate mechanic). Or just korean terrans don't feel like developing any biomech/mech strategies that wouldn't be timing pushes? Btw, i'm aware of people like Goody playing mech in TvP, and i don't know his winrate not any other terran's. But unless we see a terran winnig GSL/MLG/DH with mech in TvP i'd like to focus on koreans as they are clearly the top players currently.

The thing with TvP is that it doesn't feel terran-ish at all, if i wanted to make a lot of T1 units i'd play zerg! I really hate getting slaughtered by high tech protoss lategame army with HTs and Collosus, while i battle them with "awesome" marauders. As i said, TvP is really frustrating for me, making me not wanting to play the game at all, therefore there might be some over-the-top comparisons, hope you understand what i meant and give some feedback.

Thanks for reading!

Teamliquid.net thread url
I know this is a Protoss heavy thread but please be understanding, this is not balance qq thread at all. I decided to bring this msg from teamliquid bcos this quote completely speak my mind. Current macro TvP game is almost 99% MMMGV in Terran composition and the battle will end in 10s after hours of build up. It is so boring. I have 5 opening in TvZ and 3 opening in TvT but TvP is the same as always as 1 year ago. (Many ppl would like to bring up 1-1-1 in TvP but that is just another all-in or timing attack. Same as proxy gate or 6 pool, that doesn't deserve to be mentioned as it did not create any excitement to the game or e-sports at all. So just put 1/1/1 aside 1st). I would like to see Tank heavy utilize in this MU instead of just EMP vs Storm battle.

I will be a happy man if.
- Marauder deleted and Marine nerf abit. (Clump up marine is OP, BW wouldn't have this issue)
- Buff tank damage output or health & easier to reproduce
- Nerf warpgate or delete warpgate once and for all
- Buff stalker a lot (to make it as strong as dragoon, thus holding small number of Sieged Tanks & 1/1/1 all-in shldnt be any problem)
- Immobilize Colossus more but add in range or damage output(instead of a boring deathball, hope Toss will play more positional strategy by using Colossus as space control unit)
- Cancel extra move speed of zerg unit on creep.
- Add space-control unit in zerg army (like lurker in BW) to promote more positional play in zerg game.

I'm not saying it is not fine. Just that the current set-up is too 1-dimensional. As comparison to bw, tank are immobile, reaver is very un-mobile and lurker is immobile. Colossus are too mobile compare to this 3. Creep is good for vision, adding speed will just promoting zerg to go for counter. Adding lurker to zerg armada can give zerg option to defend at certain position and not to go base trade everytime they feel their army is inferior. Base trade is not the concept of RTS. But I know to make lurker work against Tank, zerg need to have dark-swamp ability. Maybe an-expansion unit for zerg?

I noticed Protoss doing alot of changes but not Terran. So it is boring for Terran player, Terran is just adapting what Protoss is doing. Feel like wanna puke playing TvP. Delete marauder, buff stalker, nerf Colossus movement, buff tank, nerf warp gate(maybe 20 range for the nearest nexus) will bring the end of MMM vs Toss death ball scenario. It is for the better future of e-sports.

Make ghost what it supposed to be like in SC1, how can a single human launch EMP in real life?

remove stim from marauder~ im fine with slow~ and increase the gas for ghost and ghost academy

ghost 100 100?
academy 150 50?
how joke is that?

this thread is a joke. anyone who plays pvt would know that with well-positioned tanks protoss just melt down like cheese in microwave.
Alright, immortals can be useful against tank with the strong shield and all. but are tanks always alone? Ha! barely. They are swarmed with marines (it's a common thing to see around 3 tanks with 20-+ marines) which can kill immortal like a freakin' ant. alright, let's say you shield them with sentries, blink stalkers and non-upgraded zealots with 3 immortals, the terrans would have around 5-6 tanks by then. that's when the immortal shields start to fail. stalks blink in? no problem. stim+marau can chew up the stalkers like papershredder. oh, but if you blink in stalkers the tank will kill their own units! don't kid me. people have hands to control such a simple task. what about if the protoss go for air? what, phoenixes lift? marines can shoot them down like a sitting duck. voidrays? marines or vikings (they ought to have them if you ever changed to colossus) will kill them. chargelots? sure, they work well, but against terrans whos army is entirely based on long ranged units (except for predators, but that's in campaign.) zealots take more fire than damaging them. warp gate is stupid? don't be an idiot. it is known that it takes ages for a single zealot to warp in using a standard gateway. chrono boosts have their own limits, so don't even count them in. my point is, when pvt, terrans have the unfair advantage unless they turtle.

you forgot to mention the tanks cant move when they are in the so called "OP" mode.

l2leapfrog tanks

lol ghost 100 100

now i know why u have problems with terran

sry wrong info~ after all that 100 mineral wont mean much to terrans they have mules to mine xtra mineral

Smart terrans usually take over the Xel'Naga Watch Towers, if you don't know. Tanks take like 3 seconds to get to siege mode, and usually MMM ball will form a wall in front of the tank to stop any incoming hostile units. I've tried it numerous times, oh yes. Fending off early terran push from the base is a piece of cake. 2 stalkers and a sentry can do the job already lol. but the problem is mid-late game, when all your units fight outside in the open place. Phoenix harassing does not work well against terrans due to their anti air unit is a tier 1 50 minerals the cheapest long ranged unit in the game (except for infested marines, but you get the point.) High templars work well too, but most terran players run off or kill the ht first when they see it with their tanks. Usually i go blink stalk with high templars and sentries for obvious reasons, but it still doesn't work. those mass medivacs, they just don't let the petty little marines go to hell. Marauders also need to be hit with 2 storms consecutively otherwise the vacs will heal them.

its ok, now i know how much u understand the terran race 

of coz~  i hate terran since i were in silver day

try switch to Terran. In a few weeks, i bet u'll be top 10 on SEA's GM league.. LOL

try switch to Terran. In a few weeks, i bet u'll be top 10 on SEA's GM league.. LOL

isnt spending money on iphone a better way to dump money away?

Liquid`Jinro   Sweden. October 02 2011 11:09. Posts 31726 Profile Blog #
I feel the opposite - TvP is a matchup where if both players played perfectly, terran should never ever win. So dependant on getting good drops etc.

Of course its pretty damn close to impossible to play the level of perfect that you can consistently every game deny every single drop which might even make it terran favored in reality.

Anyway, I agree 100% with PredY's post, bio TvP makes me want to quit

Liquid`Jinro   Sweden. October 02 2011 21:19. Posts 31726 Profile Blog #
On October 02 2011 10:58 The Final Boss wrote:
Show nested quote +

I agree that TvP is very micro-intensive, but I feel that PredY is right in the fact that it is also a very one-dimensional match-up. You rarely see anything more than MMM and then if the P has Colossi and you don't have Vikings, you lose, and if the P has High Templar and you don't have Ghosts, you lose. It's just not a horribly fun match-up to play, because other than cheeses and timing attacks, there is very little differences in the play styles.

That being said, builds like what we saw Byun do in Code A (easily one of the coolest builds I've ever seen) gives me hope that eventually we'll see an increase in mech usage. Personally, I feel that mech is fun to play in TvP, but it's just not nearly as good as bio.

I think it would be cooler if in HotS they nerfed bio, but made mech a lot stronger.o
-------

Mech is so bad outside of specific timings, on almost all maps.

It just isnt able to do anything at all late game - if you want to kill an expansion that has 1 pylon at it you need to bring your entire army because of warpin, if protoss gets 1 warp prism up in your base........ you will never defend.

You cant stop addon sniping, your army will not trade nearly effectively enough vs his to make up for his instant 50 supply re-supply vs your super slow pace..... You are just not able to control the map at all, so unless you are doing a 2 base timing its pretty hopeless.

(@Byuns build)

Liquid`Jinro   Sweden. October 02 2011 21:26. Posts 31726
If only the colossus was a reaver....

PredY   Czech Republic. October 04 2011 05:32. Posts 1399 Profile #
On October 04 2011 05:22 Apollo_Shards wrote:
Show nested quote +


Honest question. If broodwar was so much better then why not play or watch that? No one forces you to watch TvP without tanks.
____
honest answer: because i love starcraft. i love playing it, watching it, thinking and talking about starcraft. i want sc2 to succeed like BW did in korea, but will it? why not build up on what we knew was working in BW - positional play, soft counters that encourages a lot of micro, decision making etc. you don't have to recreate BW but take inspiration from it, not just make a game with "cool" units like marauer and collosus and stamp Starcraft name on it. (i hope it doesn't sound too harsh, because i f***ing respect blizzard and im happy they are trying to make it right)

No, SC2 isn't a "completely new game." At its core, SC2 is still an isometric, old school, economy based RTS that is heavily influenced by BW.

The biggest differences between BW and SC2 are related to graphics, AI and UI. There's very little in SC2 that, from a gameplay and unit design point of view, couldn't have been done in BW. So keeping all that in mind, it's perfectly fair to say that BW tvp played out in a much more interesting way than the blob vs blod, zero positional gameplay of SC2.

Basically, people who think that SC2 is hugely different from BW are fooling themselves.

The main difference is that once the game advances to the MMMVG point where all Protoss aoe tech lines are countered the Terran simply wins the game. I agree with everything you said about Brood War but the reason BW was great was that each race was forced to play differently. Terran controlled space with tanks, Zerg did the same to some extent with lurker/ds but also had mobility for frontal attacks and Protoss was always mobile.

Now all 3 races play like Protoss did in Brood War so the major determining factor in who wins is just a checklist of stupid low level shit.

1. Do you have more surface area for your units?
2. Do your units hardcounter your opponent's?
3. Do you have more units?

That is all this game is about and simplifying this problem down to a rant against warpgates (which I agree should be gone from the game) or tech counters is a fundamental misreading of the factors that made BW great. Positioning, real map control and defender's advantage have all been removed with the nerf of tanks and the removal of the lurker and defiler and subsequent addition of pseudo-Protoss units like the marauder and roach. The problem with this game is a lot more complicated than one or two little things but I admire your thread and I think that a widespread discussion of these types of things is useful and necessary.

Seriously, i'm getting fed up playing PvT. Almost all of my ladder matches are against TERRANS.

Compare to last time, most of the matches I lost. Yes, I'm a Silver noob, but what the heck. All Terran gotta do is MMM or marine marauder tank. Once terran got 4-6 siege tanks and a ball of marine marauder. I totally cant do anything.

Why? The tank damage is OP when they're own siege. All terran gotta do is just micro that ball of marine marauder.

I tried ways to counter but fail. Zeal Stalker sentries. or even with colosus. Terran is owning.

Sigh, my noob ranting. Really fed up with PvT games. Where the hell are Zergs and Protoss?

go watch the lenoock and ganzi game . u will know how zerg in late games .

omg zerg so op . hehe