I am quite blur about like what are the job available if you study civil,material,mechanical,E&E,Chemical engineering and etc etc.And there doesn't seen to be any prestige school for engineering or that i have been kept in the dark.Where do people usually go for thier engineering degree for a middle class family,like the places and uni available and what are the entry requirement? I hope it's not too high cause i am doing that well in physic right now .=P But i do really have intrest in it. HELP! thanks!

This post has been edited by Applehead: Aug 21 2011, 12:52 PM

u can start by spelling engineering properly .

and yes, u have been kept in the dark. where have u been hiding all these while?

Haha done my correction.I have been quite indecisive about what to study for degree i was just thinking if i done well i should be able to go to any course i want but now.I am more than halfway thru per-u and i haven't decide what i am going to take as my degree i am a bit worried. I read the engineering post and it's quite helpful and but isn't much detail about the branches from the engineering tree.

Do a search here. Read more. You can just visit any websites of the institutions that you know and look up more info there.

i also born in middle class background but i never give up to take engineering courses ...although my family not encourage me take ce because the fees are quite high if i take in any ipts or private college...i advice u go ahead since u have good result in physics to take engineering course...i use ptptn for all the fees and this have reduce my parent money..and now im diploma civil engineering holder and going to take degree end of december hehe

pick generic chemical,electronic or mechanical engineering and try find a work in oil and gas company. Good money but very exhausting and dangerous

not include civil engineering? civil only can work at site and office ?

actually the picture is bigger than it appears Engineer1992.

take this for an example,

Just look at an F&B shop promoter.
What you see is that the promoter stands the whole day in the shop.

BUT.
the fact is,
[what you cannot see] The promoter actually needs to do some stock checking, some plus, minus works.
which IS very

hope this can clear your mind even just a bit

P/s : Hope you'll choose your best life decision

This post has been edited by lemonish: Aug 21 2011, 05:57 PM

Yea good one. Being an engineer is not easy unless you really have passion for it.

Why do you wanna study engineering? not because it sounds good, I hope?

Haha because i am a science student and there's only two field i can go right? engineering or med... not smart enough to compete with those medical student then come engineering .Plus i like physic more than bio... but maybe i will consider bio engineering also but don't know what is the requirement looking though the forum for engineering stuff now . I don't get what is is ipts and only diploma student get credit transfer or other pre-u also?

This post has been edited by Applehead: Aug 21 2011, 06:16 PM

engineering is too general.pls narrow down choice.what type of work u prefer,offshore,building,train,its too wide.as for me,aircraft maintenance engineer.

still got lots of science courses out there. just google about it. science is not just only engineering and med. have you heard bout science geomatics? science forensic analysis or science actuary? i think you should figure out what you really want to be. and if you choose engineering, remember that engineering is not just only about physic.in engineering got management,design,entrepreneurship.for example,if you take mechanical engineering you will learn chemistry which is material science/metallurgy.you will learn something about art and applying your creativity which is mechanical design and you will learn something about management which is industrial management. its not just about calculation.

Yes Oil and Gas company do employ Civil Engineers.

You don't really have to limit yourself into Engineering or Med. You have to know what and which field you really interested in before proceeding to taking the course. Like what already mentioned by our fellow LYN members, you really needs a lot of passion if you were to study Engineering courses. There are plenty of Engineering courses out there and each have its own major too.

IPTS (Institut Pengajian Tinggi Swasta) opposite of IPTA (Institut Pengajian Tinggi Awam). Swasta is private, Awam is local (supported by Government funding).

Wrong.
Science students can go whichever course available.
be it accountancy or even a oceanography

what`s your passion in life that matters right?

This post has been edited by lemonish: Aug 21 2011, 08:01 PM

+1 to the post above.

Just go for the course that you had the passion most.

Problem is i don't know what my real passion is ..

then why you take science..

Sit at home and rot and do nothing, that's the best, no?
Go and find it out! It's your interest, your responsibility to find it out.

You are asking medicine in other thread, here you are asking about engineering.

Have you read the engineering thread above? Please do so if you are not.

Go and find your passion!!!

This post has been edited by sotong1992: Aug 21 2011, 10:38 PM

I post this after reading that thread,cause it doesn't show me what engineering studies i can pick... the medicine is just out of curiosity but so many people flame me on that post... speechless .

So, you know you are interested in engineering but still in dilemma choosing which field???



I am wondering why the mod does not close your thread.

This post has been edited by sotong1992: Aug 21 2011, 11:42 PM

cause this is relavent. =)

There are tons of Engineering courses. Google it.

Here's some example: E&E, Civil, Mechanical, Chemical and etc.

You spell relevant wrongly, still dare to say it is relevant.

I bet you have some ideas in choosing which engineering.

This post has been edited by sotong1992: Aug 21 2011, 11:34 PM

Stop flaming. We are suppose to guide him. Thanks

Kay =.=" i have problem with spelling,I know the few popular course like the one named but the problem is i don't know what are the courses like for example i just read a post about chemical engineering from i gather is that chemical engineering you only need to know little about chem and phy and must be exceptionally well in maths.I was considering chemical engineering a while back but after reading that i am having a bit of doubt .. so. hum i guess i have to do more reading and research to find out while course is most suitable for me.

Chemical Engineering is about changing raw materials into valuable products that is used everyday. Chemical Engineers play key roles in industries, as diverse as petroleum processing, pharmaceuticals manufacturing, food processing, textiles, and chemicals. While developing the processes, Chemical Engineers help to manage resources, protect the environment, and control health and safety procedures.

This may explain what is chemical engineering.
Thanks

This post has been edited by sotong1992: Aug 21 2011, 11:46 PM

Yes, you should do more research. Beside Google, you can always go to talks/Education Fair/Uni Open day to gain more understanding on each courses.

And try to see what each course will lead you to- what you going to do after graduated from that particular course.

TS, have you googled, try to research, ask senior, ask teacher etc before start this thread?

basically, several big branches of engineering filed in the market
1) Civil Engineering- more on structural e.g building,roads,airport,bridge etc.
2) mechanical- Air Cond, Ventilation, Heat transfer, moving part, fluidity etc
3) electrical - TNB power supply etc
4) electronics- microchips, etc
5) material engineering- making synthetic material better e.g. make steel stronger, more flexible and lighter

then in each branch, which level you want to work at?
1) R&D?
2) Consultant office?
3) manufacturing?
4) sales engineer?
5) on site engineer?

each level require different skills.

1) R&D need you to be consistent, sit in office doing same thing for hours and do not require you to be creative etc
2) need your creativity, management etc
3) need management, planning etc
4) integration of sales talk & technical selling
5) problem solving skills, management, leaderships.

you can be an engineer as some low paid but well dressed in consultant office, speak english, wear nicely, eat at fancy restaurant but salary is so so compared to on site project engineer, work under the sun, see drawing in container box, wear t-shirt, wear white coloured safety helmet, safety boots always covered with mud,speak malay language & have lunch with bangla, indon and foreign workers..... but the pay is higher than in office

This post has been edited by Awakened_Angel: Aug 22 2011, 10:45 AM

From this post I feel that you are not lost in choosing an engineering, but rather, choosing a course.
I am sorry for being harsh, but you sound as if you are trying to choose which meal to have, be it Italian, Spanish, Chinese, Japanese etc. Step back out, must you have your meal now, or a snack, a drink will do?

It's all about interests. What fascinate you so far in your life? What kind of knowledge that you think you want to pursue to make yourself a worthy man on this world, or make yourself with no regret before leaving the world (of course, you might not want any knowledge)? What kind of life do you see yourself in the future - and how can you achieve it? Is engineering a way to achieve it?

Here is the deal.Engineering can be a very specialized or diverse field.There are just so many fields out there.I get the feeling that you haven't really put much thought into your future plans other than make a loose connection between physics and engineering.

The advantage of having a pre-u education is that you are given exposure to many fields of science within the physical world.Mechanics,quantum physics, electrostatics ,fluid mechanics,thermodynamics....Once you have examined what exactly about "physics" that you like, you proceed to match that interest with the corresponding career.

For example, if you like quantum physics a lot and you have godly math skills and you are willing to spend the next 30 years or so doing it,becoming a theoretical physicist might be a good career choice.But that is not the only choice.You can still branch into engineering fields that deal with nanotechnology if you are more interested in the applications of quantum physics in life.

maru&box yah haha you got me figured out.=) But pre-u they just touch so little on every field of science within physical.Learning about application now hopefully can help me to make up my mind.

Why can't you just take the initiative to find out yourself? It really makes people think you are not interested in anything, and will just want to look for a degree for no reason. If you want to find out more, certainly you can, unless you have some serious crappy internet that can't even allow you to do google search properly.

Why so furious?=.=" I am taking my time to know what i want to study and do in the future.Problem?
I didn't ask anyone to spoon feed me what course is about what now right?
I'll look it up soon.
I am into a lot of stuff but i don't want to be site project manager under the hot sun and stuff .
I like mechanic but i don't want to be the one doing all the heavy lifting and assembling, just want to design and make it work .
Other interest like electronic stuff and hopefully can converge that with mechanic hybrid car=D or maybe or help making new electronic product.I am also interested to help making factory machines you know those giant machines ?
But besides all those electronic stuff i also like how physic can be apply in chemistry like using mass spec ,nmr and stuff but my syllabus haven't cover that deep yet on how physic can be use for all those
Medical equipment also fascinate me like mri,xray and so on lah
Physic is so diverse and all the course seen interesting >< so hard to decide . Alamak..

i lol at those u said..

I like mechanic but i don't want to be the one doing all the heavy lifting and assembling, just want to design and make it work

-- please dont be confused between technician and engineer. you must know the differents 1st before you can say that you interested with engineering.


am also interested to help making factory machines you know those giant machines ?


--sadly you will not be involved to such things if you become an engineer and working in malaysia.

Mechanic is 1. (Physics / General Physics) (functioning as singular) the branch of science, divided into statics, dynamics, and kinematics, concerned with the equilibrium or motion of bodies in a particular frame of reference See also quantum mechanics, wave mechanics, statistical mechanics
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mechanics
Engineer A person who designs, builds, or maintains engines, machines, or public works.From dictionary.com
So correct right? it just mean i don't want to be a technician but i heard a lot of times those that study mechanical engineering just end up being a technician in malaysian.

and yah i have to think about where i am going to work after i finish my studies so it's not just about interest a lot of stuff have to put into consideration.

u're missing the point.

yes, mechanical engineers are the people who designs engines etc. with enough expertise, they could design an entire factory of engines should they wish to.

but then there's the limitations of practicing locally. in malaysia, u wont get that kind of opportunity. it depends on ultimately on u. my cousin studied aeronatic engineering for 4 years, but eventually he ended up working with tractors malaysia maintaining those big construction machines.

u have to face the realities of the profession, kid. u may dream to become an astronaut, but really, how many astronauts do u see walking around today?

+1

Is time to wake up and see the World.

stpnmaths you're studying in u of nottingham?

I dreamt of becoming an astronaut when small, studied mechanical and work in design stage in hoping change the world(naive me) which ended up continuing family business

How can u be a good engineer if u didn't go through the hardship of learning by getting your hands dirty? U watched armageddon? if u do..remember the part where harry stamper screws up the NASA's scientist /engineer for incorrectly installing the drill machine flow line? Which one u wanna be? the NASA scientist / engineer or harry stamper?

This post has been edited by feekle: Aug 22 2011, 10:37 PM

Nope haven't watch.Haha for learning yes everyday working as a technician no~

Yes I am.

Whao~ Engineer? Which course? can tell me how you enter?

Civil Eng. Just apply lo.

even asking people how to enter...u need him to apply for u? -.- just look at nottingham website...there should have a guide for u to refer to...entry requirements, english competency...everything...

+1 Btw, go to http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/1935883 for more info

Interesting hehe =) thanks ya ,under my consideration.

so you hop around and hope people to spoon feed you, from the start to the end. you're so lost and without direction.

have you consulted your parents, teachers or friends?

the school counseling board may help giving you a jump start.

That is what I felt too for this KID, seems like he just throw a generic question and ask everyone to answer him and dont even bother to take note.

Kids nowadays...

I think it quite a norm for student didnt know anything about what course to take. When I was in uni doing matriculation, everyone will have only 2 choice in their head, medicine or engineering. When ask about what actually engineering does, many dont have a clue. In the end some of them being 'lelong' because grade is not good enough to be in engineering or medicine school.
Why dont you read around on different course beside those 2? You might find some of them quite interesting. I took a geology when I was in uni. Class was easy, got field trip every now and than. Now been working in O&G for the past 10 years. And you know what people said about O&G salary...

umm, we understand that. but there's a thread on engineering which explains about most of the paths available. a good student would go read those up first, and if they wanna open a thread to discuss something specific, we're more than happy to discuss.

however, the trend of being a blackhole - which waits and sucks up all information and do little less of anything - is annoying. most of us here are in voluntary basis, the least u could do is pull ur own weight and THEN ask questions on where to go further. entertaining basic questions is time consuming and tiring.

it's all about ethics.

Best advice : Seek your parents.

They understand you best.

You understand yourself the best.

seconded.

Your parents THINK they know what's best for you.

ermm.. i think first u must find out what is ur interest is by looking through the definations of those engineering. i think the thread itself have alot of explanation.
then make sure its four years course, cause the BEM only recognize 4 years engineering course. but if u dun plan to join its okie.
the thing is, sometimes the company dun look at wat engineering u are studying as long as u have the word Engineering behind.
try to go to jobstreet and see what normally is the job scope of each engineering.
I studied Chemical Engineering, so i can tell u more about this engineering.
Chemical Engineering is not about studying Chemicals (always a wrong conception, hahaha). i like chemistry so i choose this course.. but its very physics.
Chemical Engineering's job scope is very wide. Almost every field u can join except civil. u can join oil and gas, semiconductor, food, pharmaceutical, environment, and etc. what i find most interested about Chemical Engineering is that u will have a final year Plant Design Project. wht u have studied for the last 3 years will be applied in this project. Its very fun, from nth u learn how to build ur own plant.
Other engineering i'm not quite sure, if u like buildings (Civil), anything to deal with machines movement, designing (Mechnical), circuits, robots, computers (E&E), making new materials, plastic, metallurgy and etc (Material Engineering).
Basically in the real job, every engineer have to work together in order to complete a project. Especially building a plant or factory.
i hope this helps. from wat i notice, many companies like Mechnical Engineering (dun ask me why)...hhahaha... all the best

@hitsugaya2010 what's bem?

Check it up yourself. Most browsers have quick search bar on the top right corner, and they do also provide instant search if you type in address bar. If you install what Google Bar, Bing Bar, Yahoo Bar you also can do searches right away.

board of engineering malaysia = bem

institution of engineering malysia = iem

Why the spoon feeding?

This post has been edited by tanjinjack: Aug 26 2011, 03:29 PM

looking at the website now. I was just afraid like something else will come out lah(excuses.=)) Thanks

---

Added on August 26, 2011, 3:32 pmYou guys are so knowledgeable it's like you guys had done research in every course.

---

Added on August 26, 2011, 3:39 pmEvery document submitted must be certified as a true copy by a Professional Engineer who is registered with BEM.
(So do people find agent or in most cases the lecturer will help student to sign up?)

This post has been edited by Applehead: Aug 26 2011, 03:39 PM

you don't have to like your job, stop being so idealist. Sometime you have to do something you don't like and boring to feed your family

Which document?

Oh it's from the web sorry i just copy pasted without thinking haha ~
The doc are Certified copy of the degree certificate.

Certified copy of the transcript of academic record or detail of course and subjects taken which is issued by the university.

Certified copy of Identity Card.

Processing fee of RM50.00.

http://www.bem.org.my/v3/app_graduate.html
I know too early to know all of these now but curious =P

All these are not the main things. The main thing is the course you want to do is listed under accredited courses in BEM website. And as for getting accredited or not, is a whole another issue.

You are not signing up for engineering courses...

Too far to think.

This post has been edited by sotong1992: Aug 26 2011, 05:56 PM

I am 80% sure i am going for engineering. =) Maybe E&E or Mechanical can't decide between the two yet.Not much interest in building so civil is not for me.Chemical engineering seen fun,but i can't imagine myself doing chemical engineering cause my chem practical sucks...,for theory chem is a lot easier than physic just need a good mind map hehe but sometimes or a lot of times i can't apply what i learned.. ,Physic require quite a lot of thinking and understanding but it's easy once you grab the concept,the application seen easier than chemistry haha.I am interest in the designing chemical plant for final year project.. . =( too bad i guess.

QUOTE(transhumanist92 @ Aug 26 2011, 04:51 PM)

you don't have to like your job, stop being so idealist. Sometime you have to do something you don't like and boring to feed your family

felt sorry for this 'you'.

Because when not liking 'your' job is in 'your' mind,
'you' will work purely FOR MONEY.

in other words,
that SUCKS for like.. 24/7 365days
since everyday after arriving the office, the only thing you`ll be thinking is : "DAMN, how much longer do I need to be here, DAMN [again ]"


conclusion?
liking 'your' job is much better.
makes 'you' feels complete every time 'you`re' comin` home from work


This post has been edited by lemonish: Aug 27 2011, 01:20 AM

Yes. Of course, everybody knows that.
In reality, however, someone somewhere not always achieve what they dreamt of becoming. They might not have the ability as others to forcefully implant a new ideology or to cheat themselves mentally and emotionally for that, but they do have the courage to push aside that disappointment to feed his family.
I'm not sure about you, but in a lower-mid class family, dads all around worked for their jobs and most of our previous generation, as in our parents, does not like their job, but they have a mentality that it's their family they're feeding in lieu of that. See it from all sides. That guy might have a point too.

TS,

Be a doctor.. The worst that you can do is kill one person at a time. Be an engineer, a single mistake from YOU can kill thousand of people.

You will either be a lousy doctor or a lousy engineer. It is SAFER for all of us that you should be a lousy doctor.

Dreamer

heh... be an architect and u dont have to kill anyone

i thought the highlands tower and kt stadium incidents had some architectural issues as well?......

also not safe.....

accountancy maybe the safest?.....

That one is mostly for those who are Civil Engineer. Other..nah..less risk.

the safety of construction/structure is engineer's responsibilities. for example, when we design the most audacious architecture, it's still the engineer's responsibility to ensure that it could be built. if so happens such building collapses, first they will check the engineer's drawings. if it is sound, then they will check the contractor's works.

it will be between those two, not the architects.

But architect just couldn't design something physically impractical isn't it?

owh we can. we can design anything.

but the clients arent gonna pay for those .

but yeah, accountant would probably be safest.

=) So do my best .Like what tanjinjack said time to grow up and quit playing with words I guess...Just do your best at what you're capable of doing and you won't accidentally kill someone.

Do sales better...Amway...

MONEY wise , SAFER....

This post has been edited by sotong1992: Aug 27 2011, 02:08 PM

TS, how bout Mechatronic course, it suits ur interest in ME & EE coz u'll learn both in this course. u've already stated before tht u have interest in machinery & robots, as u know all machine require application of both mechanical & electronic to make it work/move.

i suggest u to read job recruitment ads in The Star or anywhere and find out what is their job scope, their responsibility and required knowledge&skills for the job. hope this way can help u to figure out what u want to be/do as career

@sotong1992 you go do lah .=)

---

Added on August 27, 2011, 3:24 pm@sotong1992 any idea how many engineer malaysia produce each year? tried google search engineering malaysia statistics nothing came out =S where did you get the doctor statistics also?

This post has been edited by Applehead: Aug 27 2011, 03:24 PM

KUALA LUMPUR: The Malaysian Medical Association is concerned with the haphazard turnout of medical graduates from 30 local medical schools and hundreds returning from overseas annually.
Its president, Dr David K.L. Quek, said this year alone more than 3,650 medical graduates reported for internship and provisional registration.

"Starting next year to 2020 we are projecting some 4,000 to 5,000 medical graduates coming on-stream annually," he told the New Straits Times.


He said the increase was caused by the Health Ministry's aim to quickly reduce the doctor-population ratio from 1:903 now to the so-called developed nation status norm of 1:400.

Malaysia plans to have more than 85,000 doctors for a projected population of 35 million by 2020. It now has just over 31,000 doctors, including provisionally registered interns.

Dr Quek said this goal of trying to have so many doctors in so short a time was too fast, and too soon.


"Before long, we would be facing not just a serious glut of doctors but also a possible erosion of standards mainly because our infrastructure and our current and projected training and supervising personnel cannot cater to such a huge influx of medical graduates in so short a time."

He said fresh medical graduates need more in-depth training and closer supervision as they dealt with extremely narrow margins of errors and possible life and death encounters.

"Medical mistakes and lapses are not acceptable options, and the consequences are too dire for society or the patient and/or their families to bear," Dr Quek said.


"Of late our qualms are spooked by rising complaints that some foreign graduates are of dubious quality and training, especially those from questionable medical schools whose programmes have been formed purely as business concerns.

"These medical programmes seemed to have blossomed of late to cater to foreign medical students from third world countries, or as luck would have it, even from middle-income nations such as Malaysia." he added.

He said Russian, Indonesian and Ukrainian universities were offering medical programmes strictly for foreigners in the English language when many of the teaching staff have problems even speaking English. Graduates are expected to leave and not practise in the host country.

He said the Malaysian Medical Council faced a dilemma whether to approve standards based on a minimum of requirements but possibly sacrificing on quality, or to deny them and earn the wrath of parents, medical school agents and politically-linked investors/detractors.

These concerns also applied to some local private medical schools which have sprouted recently. Their main concern was to have as many medical student numbers and intakes as possible to cater to the demand rather than worry about the quality of the graduate.

He said non-clinical teachers -- many not eligible to register as doctors in Malaysia to practice -- were imported from neighbouring countries and young professors were elevated and instructors promoted without adequate quality assurance standards.



Use your calculator, Msia has 32 medical colleges, old medical school can have 100 students per intake and the new established may have 50 to 100 students per intake. So, we may have around 2000 medical graduates a year. Do not forget those students from Ukraine, Russia, Ireland, UK, Australia, Singapore, Indonesia, India and Egypt.

These medical colleges for sure will increase the students intake to raise the profit by bombastic advertisement. So, more doctors are on the way.

For engineering, use the same way to count the students then you can roughly know the figure on how many engineering graduates is produced per year under different field, ex: mechanical, chemical, E&E and so so. I think almost all public universities have engineering courses unless UniSZA and UUM. (correct me if I am wrong)

PS: My assumption, correct me if I am wrong.

This post has been edited by sotong1992: Aug 27 2011, 06:21 PM

Public universities provide some pretty decent engineering education.

Anyway, engineering is not the only way. You might as well consider some other disciplines.

both public and private provide decent engineering education as long as it is accredited by EAC- Engineering Accreditation Council
unless if we focus on facilities though...some institutions might not have sufficient facilities but it doesnt make the degree less valuable

hey..i'm spm result holder..and now i'm lost..i'm good in math and physics and i interest in engineering..

if my math get A and physics got B in spm.i can go for civil engineering ?

Of course you can. No people can say you are not qualified since your results fulfil the requirements and of course passion in it.

if i study foundation for 1 year then persue to degree...foundation syllabus izzit hard??need advice

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Added on September 20, 2011, 1:40 pmif i study foundation for 1 year then persue to degree...foundation syllabus izzit hard??need advice

This post has been edited by heyafrika: Sep 20 2011, 01:40 PM

What will you do if it is hard?

Hmmsss,i will spend more time to study and achieve good result

So, will it really matter whether it is easy or hard? You'll have to do it no matter what, isn't it?
Anyway, strongly recommend you to find out your interest, the interest that can keep you going on and on, wanting to look out for more and more information about it. Those things should be your jobs, because you'll enjoy it, instead of enduring and suffer through it.

doesnt mean u r a science student u must be in meds or engineering. some of my science stream frens are in business and communications field. SO WHAT.. if u like physics? i like arts back at school but i did engineering anyway. and please dont u put people in science stream are better than anyone else. some things u need to go through by ur self. people telling that engineering is better now but in 5 years when u finish study, do u think its feasible for u to compete with thousands(maybe milions) of engineering graduates from all over the world. if u dont get what is ipts go study some more. there is this thing called "google" in the net. try and look up for it. do some homework.



hey applehead. u r living in a world called real life. what u learn in school n uni doesnt determine what u do for work. it s ur critical thinking u develop throughout those years to help u do ur work. as an engineer u dont go to work and literally " designs, builds, or maintains engines, machines, or public works". most of the time u design process improvement, build plans, coordinate to maintain engines/machines and importantly public work like filing, photostat, doing report and stuff.

some of engineers prefer to be technician because they can claim overtime. most engineer/executive position doesnt have this previlage


R U SURE?? try and look back at ur post and ask urself could u be actually doing engineering?? maybe u should organize urself more. get some info from other resources and then post about doing what u want in the future.

Hmm. I asume u study aircraft maintenance engineer. In Malaysia, which uni/college has besides Nilai?