hi sifoo's out there..
i just upgraded my campro bolt-on turbo setup to bigger turbine TD05h - 18G (Jasma -ayam brand), short-runner custom intake manifold, and put in also haltech sprint 500 to my setup. before this im running on TD04hl with e-manage blue.. boosting at 0.4 bar with no problem. full boost at 3.5k rpm..

dyno tuned was done at GT auto sunway, they have done the compression check of the intercooler piping and so on. no leaking at all.. but still the boost kick in very late.

here's my current setup

1) 1.5mm metal gasket sandwiched with 2 oem gasket
2) scatter cam for campro (26266in, 266ex)
3) custom short runner intake manifold
4) jasma td05h 18g
5) turbosmart ultragate 38 wastegate

few question??
1) is the camshaft timing have any effect on the turbine spool time..?
2) short runner intake is good at high rpm.. not at lower rpm rite..?


the problem is, my boost kick in very late at 5.5k rpm and almost full boost at 7k rpm..
does hi-cam give additional lag to the spool time..?

please refer my dyno chart below.
hope i can get some idea from you guys here.

thanks..



This post has been edited by benjoe: Jul 8 2011, 11:54 PM

the short runners arent good. Why are they short? If it's long runners, at least it gives some time for the exhaust gases to pick up velocity / speed to spool the turbine up faster.

TD05 on a campro... I'm pretty sure the engine is not gonna last long.

Camshafts do affect spool-up time.. which is out of my knowledge to explain to you on how it does, sorry.

And the uberly low compression is also causing the late spool-up. Were you on the td04 with the oem gasket only, or also with this 3-gasket setup?

yeap.. during the td04 im only use the oem gasket..

indeed the high oem compression added some juice to the fast spool-up.

try change to td04

either the 18g is not matching your engine, or the compression is basically too low. what boost on the 18g?

18g, this is the problem, change to 16g and it'll spool faster but not by much (1-1.5k rpm difference i think). 18g is meant for 2.0 engines, even 1.8 will suffer huge lags. and u r boosting 0.4 bars, why? 18g needs high boost in order to function properly, it's hp orientated not response.

trust me, get the 16g and boost at least 0.6 bars, u already have lowered compression and a highly tunable ECU, a higher boost won't blow your engine. and 0.6 bars isn't really considered high boost, it's just.......standard

and whoever says short runners aren't good for turbo they don't know what they r talking about, i'll tell u, for response, THE SHORTER THE BETTER. Same like the intercooler piping, u don't want cuti-cuti malaysia piping that goes all around the world, it's a waste of metal, if i have a choice, i'll place my intercooler on top of my engine (like subaru did, they can because they use flat engine).....

and your camshaft is purely for high rpm performance, low to mid rpm will suffer like hell, if u want response change to other camshaft, it's no use if your boost kick in at so high rpm but your power band is so narrow

This post has been edited by stormlcc: Jul 9 2011, 02:00 PM

agree with you, +1 . But I dont understand the bold part bro

turbo is not like NA engine, it doesn't need "air pressure" or "back pressure" or whatever pressure to perform because the entire system is like a giant air sucking machine, so u need to prevent anything to "block" or "slow" air from going into the combustion chamber and going out from it to the exhaust, therefore, the shorter the better, no matter it is air intake or output

Then why would people go through the hassle of making long runners? I personally thought it was all about giving the exhaust gasses time to pick up speed and velocity before it enters and turns the turbine wheel, hence some people actually relocating the turbine as far away as possible from the engine head with as long runners as possible, naming it 'remote turbo'.

Short huge intake manifolds will give you good top and and feed the engine with all the air it needs, but kill just a little bit of bottom end.

As for exhaust, I may be wrong. You reckon?

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Added on July 10, 2011, 2:52 pmIndeed it's a blower concept where equal length runners are not as important in an FI car as having equal length runners in an N/A engine.





This post has been edited by ThunderGod_Cid: Jul 10 2011, 02:52 PM

well long runners r used mostly for NA cars. there r tons of debate going on whether to use short or long runners for "everyday" turbo engines and most of them agrees on one thing, the shorter, the better for turbo, because there's less restriction, and less restriction makes good throttle response. And most of them agrees that whether it's short or long runner, it won't effect the spool time of the turbo by much, because the turbo's spool time is largely effected by how MUCH (volume) exhaust gas is available and the in/ex dimensions and materials used for/of the turbo itself. This debate has been going on for centuries and until now there is NO CONCLUSION AT ALL, some say orange but some say apples and these guys whether their apple or oranges, they r all professionals working with great tuning companies.

Because turbo engines are totally unlike NA engines (turbo setup is much more complicated), no one actually bothers to prove which one is better because there r too many variables, like the diameter of the piping, the setup of the engine, the design of the bending of the piping and so on, all can effect the end result. and for tuning companies, they always take the same engine to test their products (short vs long intake runners for example) but they NEVER announce / publish their findings (due to p&c), they only SELL whichever product they find "more beneficial", which for us, doesn't actually know all the facts like do the long runners actually make turbo spool faster? but they sell the short runners for "maximum performance"....! I do know this as a fact, VW, they make some excellent turbo engines, and their intake manifold are designed to have both the benefit of both long and short runners, for low end torque AND high end power at the same time, and tuning companies also copied the original design but made it SHORTER for.........."maximum performance" whatever this means....

All I know is from my experience, I CAN'T say u r wrong though because who knows (literally)? All we have are some apples and oranges from those experts, and all that we can do is trial and error

and where is TS anyway? from what i know, the main culprit is the 18g turbo which is TOO BIG for your engine, change that to a smaller version and it's all good

This post has been edited by stormlcc: Jul 10 2011, 07:07 PM

lol. time for me to do more reading. And crap, my ex manifold is in the midst of being fabricated as I type this =.=!

indeed the diameter of the runners will affect the spool-up period. small runners the air travels fast, spool up fast... but once you reach your top end, it suffocates. As for big runners, spool up is slow, or boost comes in alter (whichever), but the top end is definitely there

looks like this thread is a 2 person discussion since TS gone with the wind. what car and engine r u using anyway?

just a puny 4efte engine

4efte is good enough, putting TD04 in it? in what chassis? i once thought i'll put this engine in my toyota LE, but at last decided to just go with the blacktop conversion since the halfcut price is the same (auto gb)

me 4g93 i upgrade Evo td05 turbo . already feel Boost lag
reason i upgrade is becoz i want play high boost

since u running 0.4 Very extreme low boost , LARGE Turbo is NOT ur options dude

uu should choose Small size turbo for ur engine

and morever , campro only 1.6 lol...... Seriously not suitable to plonk td05

Put back td04 and retune , thats the best choice .

scared of lag as well . Did a hybrid ct9/1. Charade g200 . The LE would be much better off with a black top

the LE is for everyday use for my wife, so both engines also a good choice, 1.3 4efte don't have much problem using RON95, blacktop can't use pure RON95, need to mix half RON97. but the FC really good on blacktop, sometimes can travel 9 days in 1 full tank, which is only RM60 (mix 50-50)

your hybrid turbo is from what turbo? still making the manifold?

wah.. long reply edi..
btw.. boosted at 1bar.. maybe the 18g is the culprit.. the turbo is too big for the engine i think.. maybe i shud put back the TD04hl..

can i do something for the 16g..? or shud buy a new one..?

thanks for all the comment..

This post has been edited by benjoe: Jul 12 2011, 12:14 PM

compressor = ct12b from 1kz land cruiser
turbine housing - ct9 stock, rebored to suit the comp wheel and housing of the 12b

manifold still in the make.

As for your blacktop, can't detune it with unichip/adaptronic?


Buy a smaller ball bearing charger

hahaa.. even GT auto also poison me to take the ball bearing turbine..

of course can, but don't have time to go KL, install the ECU and dyno tune (which will take a whole day), and ipoh don't have tuning shops.....

anyway, beside unichip and adaptronic, do u know any other piggyback good for tuning to use RON95?

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Added on July 12, 2011, 3:29 pmat last got reply from TS. of course they want u to take the ball bearing, same like me last time when i go there for tuning...haha, few years back they highly recommend the GT3540 for my engine

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Added on July 12, 2011, 3:33 pmu should change back to TD04hl, since it works for u, just boost high a bit since u lowered the compression already, your 0.4 bar standard boost don't have any feel, 0.6 bar is quite ok for stock internals

u got a 16g? or u meant 18g? if u got extra cash to spend, u can always hybrid the turbo, go ask some experts like tong turbo, they know how to make a big turbo spool fast

This post has been edited by stormlcc: Jul 12 2011, 03:34 PM

i still keep my td04hl.. not sure how many G..
currently running on Td05..

from my knowledge, i think the TD04HL is the largest turbo in the TD04 series, correct me if i'm wrong. even subaru imprezzas (not the STI version) uses this, it's good up to around 250hp on flywheel on high boost on a 2litre motor, so TS u got lots of potential using the TD04HL, no need TD05 which is just a waste of revs

previously u dyno how many horses and torque u got from the TD04? and what rev achieves max boost?

This post has been edited by stormlcc: Jul 12 2011, 04:37 PM

TD04hl
boost: 0.4bar
HP: 170hp
Torque: 220nm
boost full: 3.5k rpm

TD05h
boost: 0.97bar
HP: 230hp
Torque: 226nm
boost full @ rev cut..

both dyno done at GT Auto..

This post has been edited by benjoe: Jul 12 2011, 04:49 PM

wow, u already boost to 1bar on TD05, so why don't just boost the TD04 to 1bar? i'm almost certain u'll achieve similar figures much earlier on the revs. even if the hp is lower than 230hp, your full boost comes (much) earlier, the car will be more fun to drive

This post has been edited by stormlcc: Jul 12 2011, 04:55 PM

ya.. im thinking like that also..
mybe i'll revert back to td04hl and just sell the td05.. hhaha..

btw.. is there any way where we can cover the power drop at hi-rpm if using td04..??

u already got hi-cams, cam gears, good ECU, what about your exhaust side? u ask gt-auto better, they r much more qualified than me

i like

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Added on July 12, 2011, 5:13 pmyou prolly want to have bigger sized IC and exhaust pipes, and also oversized throttle body to compensate the amount of air going in and out of the engine since you already have cams

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Added on July 12, 2011, 5:15 pmthinking thinking think think think you cant use emanage. So... another alternative other than adaptronic and unichip would be AEM's fuel/ignition controller. not sure if its compatible or not though. I heard it's got more tuning points than emanage's 16x16

This post has been edited by ThunderGod_Cid: Jul 12 2011, 05:15 PM

emanage incompatible with blacktop? how bout 1jz-gte....? i asked because my next project involving this

hey thundergod, i saw you r selling drift gauges, the boost meter only has psi values? no bar values? looks damn cool!

This post has been edited by stormlcc: Jul 12 2011, 05:36 PM

these piggybacks i'd suggest you ask Alvin that used to work at Toms. A friend of mind

PM u number shortly

TS
can try td05-14b of from vr4
tested 1 at a 4g61t
boost 1 bar at 3.5 k and very good respond

1bar at 5000rpm la.... 14b compressor housing with 16g turbine housing= BAD combination ok.

dunno y TS choose big size turbo but still maintain low boost

TD04 Works Best under 1.0 bar lar

if 1.2-1.5 bar , td05 would be better

szeonn is right in a way.

Well, get too big of a turbo and do a low boost, it's not gonna be as efficient as using a moderate sized turbo with slightly higher boost than the big one.

The turbo's efficiency has to match the engine's CFM and displacement. With this being the key to your setup, your turbo will be able to :

-spool up to desired boost faster
-spool up at earlier rpm
-pulls the car harder
-holds torque longer
-give you your target horsies

Using a huge-ass turbo with low bosot like <1bar, you're underusing it's efficiency

ya . i also got a bit regret use td05 on 4g93
last time i tot bigger turbo = boost faster . i am wrong lolzzz

but after emanage tuned , feel better

my car is boosting at 1.5 bar. Any idea if a td04 will help it? diesel - low rev high power. Full boost comes at 2k onwards.

However - my turbo is too small i feel to do so much of work. After remapped i got approx 170 ish whp and 380Nm of torque...when i reach full boost - it starts to whine ...like a mechanical sound which is annoying everytime i reach full boost

hey TS, sorry but this is out of topic.

May I know where did you get your bolt on turbo installed and the price inclusive of installation?

I'm driving Proton Gen 2 Auto Campro IAFM. Planning on bolt on turbo but need to know the price to set a budget.

Did you find all the necessary parts yourself or the workshop got it for you?

Sorry to ask so much but really want to know.

google search xenon campro turbo

if all these BOT cost alots, might consider swap to turbo engine...slightly expensive but less headache....

TD05 is too big for your engine, boost spooling so late is not a fun thing at all, pick up will be tremendous slow, for your setup, all I can say is if you are on the highway then your boost will provide the best power. But for normal town drive, I would seriously reconmend you to downgrade the turbine size or change to a ball bearing turbine, for low budget can go for subaru turbine.

For more reliability in order for 1 bar boost that you are achieving now, a good set of low compression piston is a must bro. Strong internals for the long run bro...if not at 1 bar, your engine will very easy to pecah...

hehe been there done that for my 4G93 BOT

This post has been edited by SuperVelocity: Jul 10 2012, 10:52 AM

I don't know a lot about turbo, but my guess is because you have more aggresive cams (compared to standard anyway) and combined that with a big turbo, you've effectively pushed your torque and power to the higher RPM range.

You know, the more aggresive cams you have, the less torque you have in the low RPM range and combined that with a bigger turbo which, this is what you get.

Just my guess...

td05 spool around 4-5k n td04 spool around 3k.
bigger turbo tend to save fuel when cruising around 110-140 because it not spooling.if cc nt big enauf it will lag.the flow not strong enauf to push the turbine.housing inlet to big.
smaller turbo already start spooling around 110.fc like crazy.town drive should be nice but nt good for hway.housing inlet smaller.
so choose your turbo wisely.
btw campro bot...u kinda crazy.even u got strong internal ur block can sustain in long run?

This post has been edited by Kaninbu: Jul 13 2012, 10:22 AM

alot of limitation I must say, therefore full monitoring system is a must and always drive within the limitation and not overboost it, turbo tends to get boost spike and thats the dangerous thing that will kill the engine...

turbo spools all the time. On wide open throttle from start, TD05 will build pressure around 5k above. TD04 2-3k above but puff out of breath around 5k. That's where your boost will drop slightly or equalize with atmospheric pressure.

Big or small turbo has minimal to do with FC. Tuning, way of driving and setup yes. If you use big turbo, but never build up pressure, your engine will consume petrol like average NA. If you boost, depends on the tuning, stoichiometry, efficiency of the power transferred and Power to weight ratio is perfect, your FC will be good also. You can hit 5k rpm with vacuum. Controlled entirely by your foot. There are alot of ways to reduce lag slightly. A bit too lazy to elaborate.

Your turbo will spool to build up pressure when its either wide open throttle or throttle opening is big enough to flow into the intake manifold. don't get confused. Pressure in the intake manifold may not be the same as your intake piping. All is regulated by, your BOV, your Throttle body and your wastegate.

Yes. Running up to 1 bar with stock internal for S4PH. No problem. Only problem is traffic jam and you cannot use all the pawa. Monitoring is essential if your setup is half complete. A complete setup will have proper ventilation ensuring the engine bay does overheat, a good management, injectors, fuel pump ensures adequate supply of fuel and injection volume, Good & correct tuning with proper ignition timing, and good boost regulater. E.g boost controller or wastegates.

Cant agree more than such good explantion for bro Vervain.

That depends what you plan on running with the TD04. I have used TD04H on 1.8 all the way to 7000 rpm holding 1.2 bar. My current setup runs at 1.0 all way to 7k rpm on 2.0 engine without dropping boost. I have tested the TD04 running out of breath at 1.4 bar at max rpm when my vacuum hose to the actuator valve popped out on my old 1.8 GSR. Good thing it ran out of breath there otherwise I might not have an engine left.

The only thing regulates the boost pressure and that is the wastegate/actuator valve together with the solenoid connected to the ECU. The pressure is always measured after the throttle body. The BOV plays no part in the regulation of pressure as it is there to play the role of a release valve when the throttle body shuts to prevent pressure building up in the intake pipe. It does not ever play the role of pressure regulation. It's more of a safety valve than a regulator valve. The throttle body does not regulate turbo pressure either.

ok.. here's my take. Most of the points I think i can concur.

Wastegate/Actuator = Controls peak boost. Pressure activated. agreed. Wastegate relies on loaded spring, so peak boost control can change mechanically with spring selection. Actuator has fixed max boost. Change whole actuator only because it's not meant to be dismantle.

Solenoid = yes if the ECU/Management have Boost control capability. If not, most older gen cars/simple setup runs without it. There are simple mechanical boost controller, but it just regulates the boost, allowing higher boost tolerance for low boost wastegates/actuators.

BOV = yes safety valve. Activated when there's vacuum in the intake manifold. Depressurize the air pressure before the throttle body. Agreed on relief valve.

Throttle body = yes, does not regulate turbo pressure, but you do have control on boost via pedal? It does regulate the pressure into the intake manifold and controls the engine rpm & indirectly controls the amount of exhaust fumes out which spins the turbo? if not the boost meter will only register one value, which is the peak boost regardless of which throttle position you put.

I've never pop my vacuum hose. But I've ever pop open the sillicon hose to the intake manifold. If worse case scenario where your actuator doesn't work, your throttle body and your foot will be the last saviour if it does react fast. You either cause some compressor surge or pop the pipeline for the intake system. I trust the Throttle body valve is strong in resisting such force. I've never driven a turbo setup with solenoid/ boost controller mechanism, and would appreciate if you can share more experience on boost controller. But I've driven a turbo car without wastegate.

Just some of my understanding. feel free to correct.

The throttle body does not directly regulate boost pressure. Meaning you can keep your foot at 50% throttle, the boost will climb and then once you reach a fixed speed, the boost will drop. So the throttle body is no longer considered as the component incharge of regulating the boost. Taking your foot off the gas is not considered as regulating the boost pressure. That's more like regulating the whole engine operation and not just the boost pressure alone.

Most OEM turbine with actuators valves run with solenoid, even on my old 1994 GSR. That's an 18 year old car. The manufacturers use the solenoid setup to activate limp home mode to cut the boost by allowing the full pressure of the boost to reach the actuator which is set to open at a lower level (usually half of full boost). The solenoid then acts like a boost controller in normal running mode to bleed the pressure away so that the turbine will maintain the OEM boost pressure. Think of it as a poor man's boost controller but you can't change the settings unless you mess around with the ECU. On most OEM cars, if you remove the solenoid and pipe the hose direct from intake manifold to actuator, you will only get half boost since the spring settings are made to open at a lower pressure.

Majority of the owners then remove the solenoid and replace with an aftermarket boost controller. That is why you don't see much solenoid/actuator setup because most have been replaced with aftermarket boost controllers. You want to easily see an OEM solenoid/actuator setup? Just pop the hood of Preve CFE and you can see it right next to the actuator valve. Most manufacturers put the solenoid as far from the turbine as possible so that it does not get cooked but not Proton. You will also find it on almost all OEM turbo engines but you will have to trace the vacuum hose since the solenoid place quite far from the turbine actuator.

This post has been edited by sleepwalker: Jul 17 2012, 12:50 AM

Well we can't deny the fact that engine does effect the turbo operation. 50% throttle body yes. But if the throttle position is lower say 20%, I doubt there will be any pressure build up unless there's very low load. I think this debate would be endless.

Yup I know Preve CFE has a solenoid on the borg warner turbo housing. That too kept me wondering on the reliability. Yup regarding on solenoid function I do agree. But I think it's also because the internal wastegate actuator's spring is not as strong as those external. Slight pressure may open the door results in efficiency drop.

The turbocharger on Preve is off the shelf part from BorgWarner, even used by Audi and VW. I think nothing wrong with the solenoid location since BorgWarner EFR series also got the solenoid near the compressor housing same as turbo from Proton. :-)

It's not about the debate. We are talking about your understanding of the word regulation and not about the workings of the engine. You regulate engine function with the throttle body and regulate the turbine pressure with the acutator/wastegate. You do not control the pressure of the turbine by using the throttle body.

20% throttle on 4th/5th gear I can bring my boost to almost maximum on load while at the same time 20% throttle on 1st gear hardly gets the boost to 50%. That is what I meant by turbine boost regulation is controlled by actuator/solenoid which is electronically controlled from the ECU taking engine load as a factor. Here the opening of the throttle body no longer controls the boost. The more load I put into my engine, the more boost I get from the same throttle body opening. That is why I kept saying that you can't consider the throttle body as part of the turbine boost regulation. The throttle body is more on controlling the engine as a whole.

Yes, once you take the foot of the gas, throttle body shuts and boost drops but we don't consider that as boost regulation. There is no DIRECT correlation between boost and throttle body except when the throttle body is shut. That just shuts down engine operation to 'idling' mode or deceleration mode. Hardly considered as boost regulation.

LoL, I think this discussion will go endless. Personal view, I still think in general TPS does give you the power to control the boost in some way until it reaches your peak boost whereby the Actuator does its job. Probably the word regulation is not applicable but by controlling the TPS, you may control the boost coming into the intake manifold if the pressure difference is big. Obviously as you've mentioned, load and engine operation does come in sight in generating pressure, but indirectly it still relies on TPS. (engine operation, exhaust gas etc...)

You hit 1 bar on high speed, then decides to cruise slower, instead of lifting up to shut off the throttle body, you slowly reduce the tps % to reduce the amount of air pressure coming in to the intake chamber. Pressure before throttle body will increase at this point till the BOV relieves or the turbine is relieve by the actuator & slows down the pressure building process. At the moment where the pressure differential is there, your TPS does limit the air coming into the intake manifold, thus registers a lower pressure. No doubt if the load increases, tps % constant, the turbo still building up pressure, pressure before throttle body increase, the pressure coming into the engine will increase because the amount of air & velocity increases. But it does give you the power of controlling the pressure by further reducing the tps. We all know if there's pressure above atmospheric pressure, the engine operation will increase until its overcome by the load.

Just my point of view. Hope you won't hammer me hard again

td05 on campro ? then you should change your engine to 4g63