I agree. I've never said otherwise. Barca wanted to keep him (but how much they wanted to keep him is another matter).



Oversimplified. Every year, I read up on dozens upon dozens of hugely potential kids. Some of these names are now in the Football League or Segunda Division.

If you follow youth development long enough you would realise that no matter how big the potential, every year of a player's life is vital for his development. Slip up for even one year and you would end up a mediocre player at best, a non-pro at worst (the vast majority don't turn pro, instead going into other careers). The years (nearly 7 years now) spent at Arsenal are just as important as the years spent at Arsenal.

You might argue that, seeing as that he would not have gotten as much game time at Barcelona than he would at Arsenal, Cesc Fabregas would not be good as he is today if he had stayed in Barcelona.


Never cared about this 'DNA' arbitrary bullshit.



Agreed. Never said otherwise.

But Cesc obviously thought that getting vastly more gametime was a good thing for him.



I agree again, but when you're 16 and you're driven, you want every opportunity you can get. World-class players who become a first-teamer fully only in the 20s are very rare. Would you take the gamble and pray that despite not getting much game time before you turn 20, you could eventually bloom in your 20s? That's a big risk to take. I would rather get my developmental opportunities in my teens, rather than take the risk and hoping I get game time in my 20s.



How many players come through La Masia every year? How many get lots of runs out?

It's not whether any players are promoted or not, is what are the chances of getting promoted. The statistics are simple, let me explain:

Say Barca promotes 5 youth players, but in their batch there were 40 players. That's a 5/40 (12.5%) chance

Say Arsenal promotes 3 youth players, but in their batch there were 10 players. That's a 3/10 (30%) chance.

And that was pretty much the situation as Cesc saw it. Wenger practically guaranteed him first-team opportunities and fulfilled that by making him a first-team player by 18. He saw much, much less chances in Barca.

Take into account more lenient Spanish laws that allow Barca to hoard more youth players and thus increasing competition and you can begin to understand where they're coming from.

Commitment must be followed by actions and the fact is, at the time, there was a ceiling that was quite hard to penetrate due to massive competition.

No. Even The Sun has a degree of journalistic integrity. Journalism in the West is vastly different. Viewpoints may be skewed, but faking quotes would result in legal action or sanctions from the ombudsman.

I don't wish to be pedantic, but Cesc not staying in Barcelona IS evidence that "enough" wasn't done.

Ponder on this statement:

"Barcelona did enough to convince Cesc to stay. Cesc did not stay"

Are those two sentences not contradictory? Of course they are, because if Barce did enough, Cesc would stay.

Put it this way, if I get enough points in my exam, I will get an A, if I don't get enough points, I won't get an A. Barca didn't do enough to convince Cesc, he didn't stay. That is the evidence.

You can keep arguing that Barca did "enough", but Cesc left.



Again, reread your post. It was provocative. You don't write provocative stuff and not expect people to be provoked, do you?

Don't act all innocent without self-reflection.

You can never prove this can you?

You have to show what options Barca had, and which options Barca didn't take.



You meant "The years spent at Arsenal are just as important as the years spent at Barcelona"?

I didn't deny this. I just said that with Barca, Cesc already showed his potential, and his potential hardly went unnoticed.



Now how can you be bold enough to say that? I couldn't see, by debuting with the first team late, we would slow down his progress. Our experience with our youngster have been contrary to this popular believe. Grooming a young player is not all about promoting him early.



Well for that line I replied to your believe that we just create the noise after Cesc found his fame.



All this prove that we had no capacity to groom Cesc? All this prove we have no intention as big as Arsene?

Cesc was definitely on top of the pile, in our youth system. That's obvious. If we think its the right time to promote somebody from La Masia, it would be him, since he was on top of the pile.

On the bold part, well I've given examples of Barca's experience with our playmaker. Iniesta and Xavi made it a bit later than Cesc did. They are world class, no? To add, Guardiola also was active in Cruyff's Dream Team when he was 20.



How could we give a debut to 16 year old kid? How could we show our act, when Arsenal poached him away so much earlier than we intended? The moment we thought of promoting him, he's gone.

Arsenal offered the professional contract, while we couldn't.

We can promise him first team football, but that was just sweet promise. In reality he had to wait more than a year for his first professional contract.

We encountered the dead end mate. And Arsenal exploited it.

Oh, I think you said it in one of your posts that Arsenal have good relationship with the French about this poaching issue, I got this from the first post of Arseweb:



You know, this is in 2003. I think you've missed more than you'd probably realized

---

Added on February 23, 2011, 11:12 pmTotalbarca have translated an article in light of Toral's transfer. The highlight of the article:

The English offered to much money that Barca couldn't compete. Not because barca is stingy or anything, but because Barca only could offer youth scholarship, while Arsenal offered professional contract. Wage structure comed in mind.

This is an advantage for English side.

This post has been edited by matyrze: Feb 23 2011, 11:12 PM

I like reading your comments btw.
You're a cool headed guy.

Now, my reply to your reply

This was my post;

1)You guys just love signing Barca kids don't you?
16year old Jon Miquel Toral.
2)Thank God Sergi Samper rejected your offer.
3)But Im pretty sure it won't be the last time that you guys will come after him.

1) Isn't it true that Wenger and Arsenal scouts love to try and sign Barca youth players?
2) Fact. He prefers to stay here. Im happy with that. Is it wrong for me to be happy?
3) Sergi is one of the brightest, I've seen him play a few times on Barca Tv( yes, in SG we had Barca TV)

I don't see anything provocative in my post there.
Im not like that.
If one day you see my name in some other site's anywhere online, you can check it yourself. I have been using this nick name for years.

If I really was mad at the move, I would've said
1) you guys love to poach our kids, don't you?
2) thank god he rejected cause he cant win trophies there.
You know, Im sure there are fans like that, many in fact but that's not how I roll.
Not in real life nor in e-life lol

I didn't know why most of them got so defensive.
All I wanted to do was post a news since nobody posted it yet( I checked the posts first and nobody mentioned it).
Perhaps it was partly my fault.
Maybe there was a history between Barca and Arsenal fans here that Im not aware of since Im new but I did mention this after wards;

"Im just giving you guys the latest news.
In fact, in the Barca thread, I actually wrote that you guys actually PAID us so it's not illegal. I jsut forgot to mention it here."

Which I did, mentioning the price. If I wanted to provoke, I wouldnt mention anything about a payment.
For a payment to happen, an agreement has to be reached between two parties( Arsenal and Barca).
So if I hide that FACT, I would trying to stir things up by making it look like Arsenal made an immoral deal.
But once again, thats not me.

I will reply in full in the future (work has becoming less boring now) but it must first be said that Toral would not have a pro contract now: he's too young to be offerred one, even in England. You yourself know that he has to wait until his 17th birthday.

So IF it's true that he was "offerred" a pro contract, it would only be promissory, as in Arsenal promises to give him one on his 17th birthday.

Barcelona can do the same! They can promise a contract at 18 and they have one big advantage over Arsenal: they are vastly richer. Barca's wage bill is more than 60% higher than Arsenal's and their revenue outstrips Arsenal's by more than a third. When post-tax income is taken, Spain's more favourable tax rates mean that the big two of La Liga come out much brighter than English clubs.

The comparison made on the blog is false: it's not Arsenal's pro wage vs. Barca's scholarship because Arsenal cannot give a pro contract just yet either.

Secondly, of course, is again, Barca can invite kids from all over the world to stay in La Masia. Arsenal can only recruit under-16s within 90 minute travel time of their training ground. Had this not been the case, they would probably copy La Masia a lot more and start recruiting kids when they are 10, 11 or 12. So Barca has the advantage of getting a hold of vastly more youth prospects and imbibing a sense of loyalty.

Thirdly, as said, one year's wages does not make much of a difference. If a player is attracted by Arsenal paying them one year more of wages (much of which will be taxed at 50%!), then he is financially very short-sighted. And considering that most players now will have good advice from their agents, it's unlikely that they will not be able to discern which deal is more financially viable.

Overall, English clubs might have a financial advantage over La Liga clubs. But when looked at specifically, Barcelona does not suffer this disadvantage, being the club with the second highest revenue in the world. Have you heard of Blackburn Rovers poaching a La Masia kid?

In conclusion, taking into accound Barca's income and Spain's favourable tax environment, getting a Barca contract at 18 is financially the same or better with getting an Arsenal contract at 17.

Well said minority. As I mentioned earlier, it takes two to tango. One cannot accuse another club of "poaching' (this refers to ALL clubs btw) if the PLAYER HIMSELF also wants to transfer.

If Nasri suddenly want to transfer to Barca, Arsenal also cannot say that Barca poached him, because his contract his running out, and maybe he prefer to play in Spain. They would simply have to swallow and accept it.

barca kids love arsenal.
dont they?

its toral own decision , he want to join arsenal.. nobody force him to join arsenal..

oh well.. maybe later he become a player as good or more then fabregas..
barca can take him back with a price maybe 60m?

LOL..

if u want to blame someone, just blame barca club itself coz not to offer him a very good offer that will make toral stay at barca..
no need to say arsenal is stealing or whatever
its ur own fault... not arsenal.

This post has been edited by joe405: Feb 25 2011, 12:20 AM

Like I said earlier, Arsenal paid us money so I don't mind it.
But I just wanna tell you that you are missing some points here.

Barca can't offer him a contract as it's not allowed to offer an under 18 kid a pro contract.
Even the salary is fixed, everywhere in SPain.
Arsenal or any other club can offer any kid in Spain a much higher wage because it is allowed there, I believe when they hit 17 as the very
informative nobody mentioned earlier.
The only thing that Barca can do is make promises. Thats it.
But who would gamble their future on promises alone right?
And Wenger promised the kid that he will be promoted in 2012.
Now which 16 year old kid would reject that offer?
Just put your self in his shoes.
I sure wouldn't...

---

Added on February 25, 2011, 1:07 amI think that you don't really understand what poaching means.
Poaching is when a club(A) wants to sign a player from club B.
By right, club A should contact club B on his availability first and if they are fine with it, an offer is made club A.
BUt poaching style is when club A contact the player from club B directly, behind his club(B) knowing it.

In your Nasri case, if his contract is running out, he is free to talk to other clubs when there is ONE year remaining left.
Or he is free to talk to other clubs if Arsenal wants to let him go at any given time.

---

Added on February 25, 2011, 1:10 amNo wonder they only sign foreign players that are over 16.
That explains it.
It's quite a good rule but not enough IMO to stop English teams from buying imports all the time
until there are no spaces left for the ENglish kids

This post has been edited by barca96: Feb 25 2011, 01:10 AM

Agreed
No wonder not anyone of english player actually get nominated for ballon d'or this year.

This post has been edited by fwhoam: Feb 25 2011, 01:22 AM

Bolded sentences are contradictory.

Does that mean Wenger's promises are somehow more trustworthy and can be gambled on?

A 16-year-old kid moving to Arsenal is also gambling on a promise that he'll get a pro contract when he hits 17, so not much difference.

Also, it's not a big gamble that you think it is. If you don't get a pro contract from Barca when you're 18, there's a high chance you can get a pro contract elsewhere anyway. So why not try in Barca first and then if you fail, head over to the English Premier League? Or even other La Liga teams or a number of Eastern European big clubs who would gladly pay a lot of money for a former Barca youth who played with them until 18?

Even if you accept a promise from an English club, there's no guarantee that they'll keep you, so it's a gamble too.

So, no, it's not a gamble at all to stay in Barca and that is not a valid argument of unfair advantage.

You are missing some points here too, Arsenal approached 2 barca youth players Jon Toral and Sergi Samper.

Sergi Samper chose to stay after listening to what Barca promised and offered him for the future, Jon Toral chose to leave because he think Arsenal is more suitable for his future, so here you cannot blame Arsenal, Barca could have persuaded Toral to stay.

it's 6 months dude, not ONE year

Im not blaming anybody.
The kid sees a better future at Arsenal.
If I was in his shoes, I would take up the offer too.
I mean, c'mon, one of the biggest club in the world, with a top 3 coach(imo) wants you and offers you multiple times more money and promises you that you will be promoted in 2012, I would take it in a heart beat! F**k all that mes que un club shit, i only look for my future. Right?

Minority, yes, we can offer him a pro contract when he hits 18yo but he still wouldnt have much of a chance being promoted in the first team.
There is a long list of players who are ahead of him in the Barca B and then there are still a few world cup winners in the 1st team.
Obviously, he made a wise decision.

Put yourself in his shoes,
would you listen to Arsenal's promises or Barca's?
Well you know my answer already..

The only thing that I don't like is, when EPL clubs use these kinds of tactics to lure under 18 kids from the Continent to play for them.
Im partly from Holland. A lot of kids left home for England. Why?
Money and fame.
A good example is an ex team mate of mine who went to West Brom before establishing himself in the Dutch league.
Where is he now? In the stands.
ENglish FA gotta stop letting foreign business men take over the clubs!!
And English clubs need to stop over pricing their players!
Andy Carroll the most expensive in England? Are you kidding me?!

The point remains the same.

If Nasri leaves Arsenal for Barca its because HE WANTED TO.
Toral left Barca for Arsenal because HE WANTED TO.

There is no such thing as "immoral activities". The players have their say in the decision.

I agree with this, English player tend to be overprice and some of the pricing just ridiculous.

Anyhow, nothing much can do about this, business still business, no way English FA will stop it.

LOL this is getting tiresome.

OK minority, I was just trying to point out that Barca actually did value Cesc highly, contrary to your believe that we didn't. The question whether we were able to give him first team experience is ridiculous and pointless, since there's no way to prove it either way. I also showed that we had tried to keep him, contrary to Arsenal fans believed that we just let him walked away. I think I've proven my case, with aid by a Arsenal blog no less.

I don't know how to counter your argument about Barca didn't try 'hard enough', because I'm sure that you don't even know what options Barca had, and which options Barca didn't take. But we all can see that Toral and Samper scenarios represented different outcome to our efforts. In Samper case, because we presented our sporting plans for him, he pledged to stay with us and rejected Arsenal's more lucrative contract. Toral on the other hand rejected us, because he thought English style suits him better. But BOTH situations showed what Barca can ultimately do, although the outcome depends on how the kids think. In other word, Barca could try as hard as possible, but the outcome also depend on the kid's mentality. Back to Cesc's case, Arsenal even offered his father job and house, so in Cesc' case, family matter may have made Cesc's decision smoother. Barca couldn't do anything.

--------------------------------------------

Now that Cesc has left us, we think Arsenal should pay us, as you guys kindly did for Merida and Toral transfers.

And then you guys point out that we also could pluck youngsters from all around the world for free, but I'm not sure you guys, know which kid, apart from Messi, we poached, at least from outside of Spain.

I've told you about our dealing with Mataro for Cesc.

I can't prove my case for Pedro and Jeffren case though, because the article I read about them seems lost. But actually, other Spanish clubs also 'poached' from us. Miquel, who you guys plucked from Cornella iinm, was also plucked from La Masia. But we didn't mind, because of the level playing field I have suggested. We could always resigned him back, and pay some compensation if we should. Same goes to Jeffren. When we signed him, Tenerife could always resigned him back. This thing among Spanish clubs can go the other way around, because the level playing field the Spanish law permitted them.

Now about Messi. I picked up a line from your post in previous thread:



Come on, where did you get this? Another assumption of yours? The fact is Newell's thought Messi medical bill was astronomical, and they were no longer interested to pay it. Messi's family even forced to make do without the support for several months while looking for a new club, as Newell's cut off the fund. If you want evidence, I will try looking for Messi documentary in youtube. I couldn't find it just now.

Why should Arsenal pay anything to Barcelona for Cesc NOW? They already paid 2.8m pounds in 03/04 season.

http://transfermarkt.co.uk/en/cesc-f%C3%A0...ieler_8806.html

This post has been edited by lowyatter: Feb 25 2011, 02:08 PM

I'm not sure about these but I read it at one of the blogs,



This post has been edited by Corrupted Spirits: Feb 25 2011, 04:00 PM

what are you trying to imply when you say arsenal should pay barca?

Do you have news piece confirming this deal and the amount?

Its hard to look for evidence for transfer 8 years ago, and I was lucky to found the Arseweb blog. So, neither Arseweb blog nor UEFA confirmed of any payment made. I don't know if its available in Arsenal website.

I can't find the names in the list of our youth players.

Check out here.

As we can see in the list, it didn't mentioned the nationality of the kids. So I'm not sure which list your 'source' had glanced through.

Yes there're some Cameroonian kids, brought over by Eto'o's program. I heard Barca also have a Greek kid. But mostly our youth setup are consisting players from Catalonia/Spain.

After doing some googling, I found this :

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport...ral-Harper.html

I quote:

"How Wenger got Fabregas
ARSENE WENGER knew all about the young Cesc Fabregas but was not allowed to watch him on Barcelona youth duty.
So the Gunners chief went to Finland for the Under-17 World Cup in 2003, where Spain's Fab won the Golden Boot and Player of the Tournament awards.
Arsenal then signed Fabregas on September 11 that year, luring him with the promise of first-team football.
But they had to pay £700,000 compensation after Barcelona asked FIFA to arbitrate"

Looks like the Transfermarkt figure lowyatter posted is wrong, since quite a few other sites also show the £700,000.

Still, the point remains that Arsenal did pay for the transfer in '03.

---

Added on February 26, 2011, 9:35 amThis site also shows the 700,000 figure

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/426180-...easy-if-you-try

---

Added on February 26, 2011, 9:39 amthis one as well:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/...ral-Harper.html


This post has been edited by jwrx: Feb 26 2011, 09:39 AM