Hi debbieyss,

Once, we are regenerated, we have God's life and born of God (John 1:12). Yet, like every life, this life started out in a infant stage. The human life takes +-21 years to mature. The higher the life, the longer it takes (vegetable life->animal life->human life->God's life). How much more is the divine life in you? Many Christians were regenerated (born of God) but never had the divine revelation that he/she needs to grow in the divine life.

There is two aspects of God's salvation: judicial redemption (which we are very familiar with). The judicial aspect is according to the righteousness of God (Rom. 1:17a; 3:21-26; 9:30-31) as the procedure of God's salvation to satisfy the requirements of God's righteous law on the sinners. It is for sinners to be forgiven before God (Luke 24:47), washed (Heb. 1:3), justified (Rom. 3:24-25), reconciled to God (Rom. 5:10a), and sanctified unto God positionally (1 Cor. 1:2; Heb. 13:12), thereby entering into the grace of God for the accomplishment of the purpose of God's salvation.

However, redemption as the judicial aspect cannot carry out the purpose of God's salvation, because it is merely the procedure, not the purpose.
The organic aspect of God's salvation is through the life of God (Rom. 1:17b; Acts 11:18; Rom. 5:10b, 17b, 18b, 21b). Whereas the judicial aspect is according to the righteousness of God to accomplish God's redemption, the organic aspect is through the life of God to carry out God's salvation, including regeneration, shepherding, dispositional sanctification, renewing, transformation, building up, conformation, and glorification. This is the purpose of God's salvation to accomplish all that God wants to achieve in the believers in His economy through His divine life. This takes your WHOLE life if you let the Lord to work within you.

Some verses on growth to show I am not making this up :
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First Corinthians 3:6-7 says, "I planted, Apollos watered, but God made to grow; so that neither is the one who plants anything nor the one who waters, but the One who makes to grow, God." Verse 9 says, "For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's farm, God's building." Growth in these verses is not the growth in knowledge because here Paul speaks of a farm. Planting and watering are not related to knowledge. To plant is not to instruct but to nourish by supplying the plant with fertile soil. Likewise, to water is not to teach but to supply the plant with nutrients in the water. This is related to life.

Colossians 2:19 says, "Holding the Head, out from whom all the Body, by means of the joints and bands being supplied and knit together, grows with the growth of God." These verses show us that to grow is to grow with something. If a young boy does not eat or drink, he will have nothing with which to grow. One cannot grow with nothing. Rather, without something with which to grow, one will die. Dietitians tell us that we are what we eat. If we eat beef, we will be constituted with the meat of the cow. If we eat fish, we will be constituted with fish. We grow with the growth of God in us. AMAZING!..
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After being regenerated, we must be nourished with the supply of the milk of the word of God unto our daily, gradual salvation (1 Pet. 2:2). This gradual salvation is a daily salvation in which we are saved in the common situations of our daily living, both in big things and in small things. God’s organic salvation has a long span—from regeneration to glorification. Our regeneration is the initiation. Then we need to grow by feeding on Christ as the nourishing milk in the word of God unto maturity for glorification, unto salvation in full.

The problem today, most Christian are in the infant/children stage .. almost no different from worldly people. There is no experiences of sanctification from the world, lust or temper. There is no increase of God in them. This is not behavioral change but the element of God sanctifying and swallowing up our sinful, corrupted, fallen soul. This produces a transformation in life spoken by Paul in Rom 12:2 and 2 Cor 3:18.

We need to renewed in our being with God's life. The old man is absent of God's life. The new man has God as its element. If we are careless in our living, we will also be careless and rough in the way that we study the Bible. Before leaving the room where we are working, we may not return our chair to its original position under the desk or return the books to their proper place on the shelf from which we took them. Instead, we leave everything in a collapsed situation. This shows that we are short of renewing. When we are corrected again and again, we are renewed again and again. When we leave the room where we have been working, the things there should not be in a collapse but should be headed up in Christ. We need to be renewed in many small things. This renewing is to consummate God's intention in making the believers His new creation. A new man should be renewed, adjusted, corrected. Every mistake of ours belongs to our oldness. Why are we wrong? Because we are old. A new man is not wrong. A new man is always gentle, fine, and careful, especially in his relationships with others. This is not instantaneous but God dealing with us day by day.

This is the central truth that needs to be trumpeted out. I didn't touch at all on transformation, conformation and glorification ....

I felt my short sharing did no justice to the subject as when these matters were shared to me on the steps of God's organic salvation ... I heard and studied hundreds of messages and tried to experience them in my daily life.

But, I hope it did answer your question on why Christians has no revival. The real revival is to experience God's organic salvation daily.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Apr 14 2011, 11:22 AM

I guess I will address the first question only. From all my sharing, you still didn't get that there is no such thing as "...turn the life problems to be good". That is "religion" and not salvation. If it was, the greatest apostle, Paul, will have happy trouble-free life.

In 2 Cor. 1:4 Paul speaks of distresses. Literally the Greek word rendered distresses means narrowness of room; hence, straits, difficulties, distresses. Some translators even reverse the order of these words in verse 4, using distresses for afflictions, and afflictions for distresses. We may say that distresses are the inward sufferings which come as a reaction to the outward afflictions. Paul was in different kinds of troubles. This verse clearly indicates that Paul’s life was a life of affliction, calamity, straits, necessities, and distresses.

Verse 5 says, “In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in watchings, in fastings.” The stripes refer to the beatings Paul received. In 11:23 he refers to “stripes excessively,” where the word excessively literally means above measure. In 11:24 Paul says, “From the Jews five times I received forty stripes less one.” Furthermore, according to Acts 16:23, in Philippi Paul and Silas had many stripes laid upon them and then were cast into prison (Acts 16:23).

In 2 Cor. 1, verses 8 and 9 Paul said, "For we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of our affliction which befell us in Asia, that we were excessively burdened, beyond our power, so that we despaired even of living. Indeed we ourselves had the response of death in ourselves, that we should not base our confidence on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead." Paul and his co-workers were pressed down beyond their strength. They had the response, the sentence, of death in themselves. To their consideration, they had to die. This led them to put their trust not in themselves but in God who raises the dead.

SALVATION NOT BEING PROSPERITY BUT THE LORD HIMSELF

The Lord came to the earth for man to gain Him; everything outside of Him is just religion. We should not consider prosperity as a small thing; to be prosperous is a very personal matter. Many have believed in the Lord for prosperity, but little do they know that prosperity is a matter of religion. The Lord's salvation is not a matter of prosperity; rather, the Lord's salvation is altogether apart from prosperity. In the first century, because of their faith in the Lord, countless Christians suffered the loss of their homes, their loved ones, and even their precious lives. Were they for their own prosperity? Of course not! The more faith they had in the Lord, the less prosperity they had in their human life. In the end they even sacrificed themselves and were martyred. Not prosperity, but martyrdom-this is the Lord's salvation. Prosperity belongs to religion. The Lord's salvation is the Lord Himself.
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(But don't be confused, that we will go and look for sufferings ... this is another extreme and stupid).

Romans 8:28 says, "We know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to the purpose." In Greek the word translated "all things" refers to all matters, all persons, and all things. God the Father is sovereign and He arranges everything. He knows what we need. In His sovereignty, He causes all things, all matters, and all persons to work together for good to those who love Him and who have been called by Him to the end that He may fulfill His purpose. Don't be deceived that "for good" here refers to GOOD things. No! Everything ... all things, usually, suffering, will be used.

God has determined our destiny beforehand, and this destiny cannot be fulfilled without the divine arrangement that causes all things to work together for us. Our destiny is to be conformed to the image of the firstborn Son of God (Rom. 8:29). We are not yet fully in the image of the firstborn Son of God, but God the Father is causing all things to work together for good so that His purpose of having many sons conformed to the image of the firstborn Son may be fulfilled.

Because God's intention is to bring us into full sonship, we need to grow. No doubt, growth comes from inward nourishment, but this nourishment needs the coordination of the outward environment. Hence, there is the need of God's sovereignty to arrange our environment so that all things may work together for our good according to His purpose.

Example of Job:

Job was in the realm of building up something that was wrong. He was building up himself in his perfection, uprightness, and integrity. He thought that he was absolutely right. He was proud of what he had built up, and he trusted in that and glorified himself in that. That was his robe to cover his entire being, and that was his crown to be his glory.

Actually, Job was wrong. God in His eternal economy has no desire to build up these things. Rather, He considers all these things as frustrations and intends to strip them away from us, consuming them bit by bit. When everything is stripped away, then you will see God, and He will attract you to receive Him. Then you will have God's nature, life, element, essence, and even His being. This will cause a metabolic change within you to transform you from the present form of your human being to another form, the form of the divine being. As a result of this transformation, you will be a person reflecting God, that is, expressing Him and dispensing Him to others.


A brother's sharing (a bit off topic ... might be comforting ..)

God the Father is sovereign and He arranges everything. He knows how many hairs you need and how many children you should have. Do not complain about your children, for God will not give you more or less than you need. He is sovereign. He knows. He knows whether you need obedient children or naughty children. He knows whether you need boys or girls. Again and again I say that He knows. He causes all things, all matters, and all persons to work together for your good. It seems that God sacrifices everyone for you. To the wife her husband is a sacrifice, and to the husband his wife is a sacrifice. To the children the parents are a sacrifice, and to the parents the children are a sacrifice. Who can do such a work? Only God. I have told the Lord, “Lord, why do You sacrifice everyone just for me?” I have the inward sensation that all the brothers with whom I coordinate and even all the churches are sacrifices for me. Nevertheless, when you suffer, I suffer more. When the wife suffers loss, the husband suffers more, and when the children suffer, the parents suffer more. Praise the Lord that God causes all things, all matters, and all persons to work together for good to those who love Him and who have been called by Him to the end that He may fulfill His purpose.

God has determined our destiny beforehand, and this destiny can never be fulfilled without the divine arrangement which causes all things to work together for us. Our destiny is to be conformed to the image of the firstborn Son of God. We are not yet fully in the image of the firstborn Son of God, but God the Father is planning, molding, and performing by causing all things to work together for good. Praise the Lord! While we are growing, He is molding.

We all should be comforted. If you have a nice wife, praise the Lord for your nice wife. If you have a difficult wife, praise the Lord even more for your difficult wife. Whether you have a nice wife or a difficult wife, a nice husband or a difficult husband, obedient children or naughty children—whatever you have you should be comforted. You should tell the Lord, “Lord, I can make and I have made many mistakes, but You can never be mistaken. Even my mistakes are in Your hands. If You do not allow me to make a mistake, You just move Your little finger and change the situation and I will not make one. Everything is in Your hands.” Therefore, we all must be comforted.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Apr 14 2011, 03:30 PM

How can we forget, ... before God can come into man (if man have taken the tree of life), Satan as the embodiment of the tree of knowledge of good and evil ... entered, mingled, joined, and make himself one with man FIRST. (YUCK!!)

In the fall man has not only a fallen human nature but also a sinful nature mixed with the satanic nature. As a result of the fall, we have been constituted sinners (Rom. 5:19). In order for a substance to be constituted in a certain way, a particular element must be added to it. By God’s creation, we were good, righteous people. However, due to the fall of Adam, sin was injected into our being and constituted us sinners. Sin has been wrought into us and constituted into our being. Therefore, sin is not merely an outward deed—it is an inward, subjective element in our constitution.

When man fell, he did not only make a mistake and do something wrong. In the fall something more serious than a mistake occurred: sin was injected into man’s being. We may think that Adam merely disobeyed God and made a mistake in taking the fruit of the tree of knowledge. We need to realize that when Adam ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge, something evil, and even satanic, entered into him. Through man’s fall an evil, satanic element was injected into mankind. The Bible calls this element sin, and sin is the very nature of Satan, the evil one. In Romans 5 through 8 there are many indications that sin is like a living person: it entered (5:12), it reigns (5:21), it can lord it over us (6:14), it deceives us (7:11), it kills us (7:11), and it dwells in us (7:17). Once sin, the evil element of Satan, was injected into man, man was constituted a sinner. Now instead of being proper human beings, we are sinners by constitution.

Sometimes believers wonder how any brother who is spiritual and experienced could fall into serious sin. We should realize that we are capable of such sin. Consider David as an example. David, of course, was an Old Testament saint. He truly was saintly and wrote many spiritual songs. But was David’s sinful nature eradicated? Certainly not. For the sake of his lust he had a certain man murdered, and then he took that man’s wife. Even someone as saintly as David was capable of such sin. David did not become saintly after committing that sin; he was saintly beforehand. Nevertheless, he still fell into sin.

IN GENERAL

Since the time of Adam, everyone born of woman bears this sinful nature; all of them are of the flesh. We cannot expect this flesh to improve. Human nature is hard to change. In fact, it will not change. The Lord Jesus said, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh.” We should focus on the word “is.” That which is born of the flesh is flesh. No matter how much a person reforms, improves, and cultivates himself, the flesh is still the flesh. No matter how much a person tries to perform charitable, benevolent acts, send relief aid, love others, or serve, he is still the flesh. Even if he can do all these things, he is still the flesh. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh.” <B>Good flesh is still flesh</B>. Since it is the flesh that is born, it will be the flesh that will result. No man on earth can change his flesh. Neither can God in heaven change man’s flesh, that is, man’s nature.

We know that the flesh is always the flesh. This is why God gave us a new life and a new nature. But what shall we do with the flesh? Since God considered it hopeless and impossible, He decided to terminate it, that is, to put it to death. There is no better way than to cause the flesh to die. Hence, “they who are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and its lusts.” (Gal 5:24).

This is why we need daily, gradual salvation of God's infusion into our being. When we were saved, our spirit was regenerated, but our soul will take our whole life. (offtopic ... man because very complicated after salvation having two elements (God and Satan) warring in him/her -- another time)

In conclusion, debbie, just enjoy God ... ... pray to be infused with Him as your everything. Eat Him, drink Him. Forget about trying to be GOOD. The moral teachings in the Bible are the by-products of the infusion of God's element into you. But, we man, having a religious mind, made the moral teachings the center!

When you are filled with God, grow with God etc, how can you not be good? Even more, it will be spontaneous and effortless in living out Christ because your constitution is God . You did not struggle to be a human because your constitution is human. Ultimately, the real goodness is God Himself. The problem is lies with our constitution.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Apr 15 2011, 01:51 PM

Then, follow your spirit within. If you have lost the enjoyment, then what you are doing now, is against the divine life within.

We can bear witness to this in our experience as believers. When we were regenerated, something began to flow within us. This is because as regenerated persons, we have a flow, a current, within us. This flow is the flow of life. The more we love the Lord, spend time with Him, and contact Him, the more this current courses through us. If we check with our experience, we will realize that before we were saved, we did not have this kind of flow within. It was only from the time that we opened ourselves to the Lord and received Him as our Savior and life that this flow began within us. It was the current, the flowing, of the spiritual “electricity.” We have this experience repeatedly as Christians. Suppose we spend some time with the Lord and enjoy Him. During that time, do we not feel something flowing within us, burning within us, and even energizing us? This is the fellowship of the divine life. We as believers have the “current” of the divine life within us.

The proper way to experience Christ as life is to have this flow within us. If we do not have this current flowing within us, something is wrong. Just as a room may be installed with electricity but may not have the electrical current in operation, we may have Christ as the divine life but lose the fellowship of the divine life. If we check with our experience, we will realize that this is truly the case. Having the flow is just like breathing: the air is all around us, but unless we breathe, there is no way to take it in. The way to know whether we are in the fellowship, living by Christ, and experiencing Christ is simply to check whether there is a flow within. Do we have the current within us? If we do not have the flow or if the flow is ebbing, we must cry out to the Lord and open to Him.

The Fellowship of Life Resulting in Joy

When you have the flow of life, you will have joy. When I see you with a long face instead of a shining face, I know that you have lost the inward flow. If you have the inward flow, regardless of your situation, you will be full of joy. Indeed, your having joy means that you are in the flow, in the fellowship of the divine life.

Christians, as a rule, must be joyful persons; they must be persons who are full of joy at all times. Sometimes we are so full of joy that we feel we will burst unless we shout “Hallelujah!” “Praise the Lord!” or “Amen!” Sometimes we are so full of joy that our silence must cease and we must bubble over by speaking. As Christians, we should not be so silent. Because we are so full of the current, flowing, and bubbling of the divine life within us, instead of being quiet, we must shout and speak. You will find that the more you express what is flowing within, the more the fellowship of life will flow within you. This is what it is to be a Christian in the fellowship of the divine life.

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I won't trust all these videos. Always check the Word of God and the feeling in your spirit. Once you touched God, you are saved eternally. Of course, there is the matter of the reward of the kingdom / dispensational punishments in the 1000 years millennium, this has nothing do with salvation and going to hell.

Be assured of your salvation!

I will use the next thread to post a excerpt of an article on eternal salvation ...

The believers in Christ have been saved with security, the security of being saved once forever. God’s salvation is eternal. Once we have received this salvation, it is secured eternally. This is proved by twelve things:

(1) By the Invariable God

Our salvation is secured by the invariable God Himself. James 1:17 says, “All good giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the lights, with whom is no variableness or shadow cast by turning.” Here giving refers to the act of giving, and the gift, to the thing given. The lights in this verse denote the heavenly luminaries. The Father is the Creator, the source, of these shining bodies. With Him there is no shadow cast by turning, as there is with the heavenly orbs in the moon turning its dark side to us or in the sun being eclipsed by the moon, for He is not variable, not changeable. God, the unchangeable One (Mal. 3:6), has saved us, and our condition and situation cannot affect His nature or change what He has done for us.

(2) By God’s Unchanging Will

God’s eternal salvation is secured by the unchanging will of God. Ephesians 1:5 tells us that we were predestinated according to God’s will. In John 6:39 the Lord Jesus says, “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I shall lose nothing, but shall raise it up in the last day.” The Lord’s word indicates that the Father’s will is that none of those whom He has given the Son should be lost. This is the will of God concerning our salvation. God’s will is more steady and stable than a rock. Although heaven and earth may be removed, God’s will, which is unchanging, remains forever.

(3) By God’s Inseparable Love

The salvation we have received of God is also secured by God’s inseparable love. First John 4:10 says, “In this is love, not that we have loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son a propitiation concerning our sins.” The word “this” refers to the following fact: not that we have loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son a propitiation concerning our sins. In this fact is the higher and nobler love of God.

Romans 8:35-39 reveals that God’s love is inseparable. Nothing is able to separate us from the love of God. Verses 38 and 39 say, “I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” We are God’s beloved ones, and nothing can separate us from His love. Once God loves us, He loves us forever with an eternal, inseparable love. Therefore, God’s salvation is secured by His love. This means that our eternal security is the love of God. We may be assured that nothing will separate us from the love of God, because this love does not derive from us or depend on us but is derived from God and depends on Him. This love was initiated by God in eternity.

In Romans 8:39 Paul points out that the inseparable love of God is in Christ Jesus our Lord. If the love of God were shown apart from Christ, there would be problems, for apart from Christ, even a sin such as losing our temper would separate us from the love of God. However, the love of God is not merely the love of God itself but the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. Because the love of God is in Christ Jesus, we may be assured that nothing can separate us from it. Hence, God’s inseparable love is a vital factor in the security of our salvation.

(4) By God’s Irrevocable Calling

God’s salvation is secured by His irrevocable calling, which is based on His selection. God selected us, chose us, before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4). It was not we who selected Him but He who selected us (John 15:16). His selection is not of our works but of Himself. God has called us not according to our works but according to His own purpose (2 Tim. 1:9). This calling is irrevocable. “The free gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” (Rom. 11:29). God will never repent of it nor regret having called us. His calling has nothing to do with our works; our works cannot affect God’s calling, for it is irrevocable. Hence, God’s calling, being initiated by God, not by us, is the security of our salvation.

(5) By God’s Unchallengeable Justification

God’s eternal salvation is secured by His unchallengeable justification. Justification is God’s action in approving the believers according to the standard of His righteousness. The righteousness of God is revealed to faith (Rom. 1:16-17). For the showing forth of His righteousness, God must justify us, and He has justified us who believe in the Lord Jesus (Rom. 3:26). It is the righteous God who has justified us (Rom. 8:33). His righteousness is the foundation of His throne (Psa. 89:14). God’s throne is established forever and nothing can shake it. Our salvation, being secured by God’s righteousness and His unchallengeable justification, is as unshakable as God’s throne.

(6) By God’s Almighty Hand

The believers’ salvation is also secured by God’s almighty hand. In John 10:29, the Lord Jesus, referring to His sheep, says, “My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all, and no one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand.” God the Father is more powerful than anything. He has a mighty arm, and strong is His hand (Psa. 89:13). No one can pluck us out of His hand.

(7) By God’s Eternal Life

Our salvation is secured by God’s eternal life, by the life of God. The Lord Jesus said, “I give to them eternal life, and they shall by no means perish forever” (John 10:28). The divine life which we have received is eternal, and something eternal cannot be changed. Therefore, the fact that the divine life is eternal is a vital element in the security of our salvation.

To say that once we are saved we can be lost again means that the eternal life which has been given to us would be called back. But eternal life will not be recalled once it has been given to us. God’s eternal life is the security of our salvation. As long as we have eternal life, we have eternal security, and we shall never perish.

(8) By God’s Unbreakable Covenant

Our salvation is secured by the unbreakable covenant of God. God has saved us by His new covenant (Heb. 8:8-13). It has definitely been covenanted that He has written the law of life within us and that He will never remember our sins. As the faithful God, He will never break His covenant (Psa. 89:34). God is bound not only by His righteousness but also by His faithfulness. Hence, His unbreakable covenant with His faithfulness is a security of our eternal salvation.

(9) By Christ’s Perfect and Complete Redemption

Another matter that secures our salvation is Christ’s perfect and complete redemption. Our condition may change, but Christ’s redemption, being perfect and complete, cannot be changed. Christ died for us (Rom. 8:34), and the redemption accomplished by His death is an eternal redemption (Heb. 9:12). By offering Himself once to God Christ has perfected us forever (Heb. 10:14), and His eternal redemption issues in our eternal salvation (Heb. 5:9). Thus, Christ is able to save us to the uttermost, not only in extent but also in time (Heb. 7:25).

(10) By Christ’s Eternal Salvation

The believers are saved with security by Christ’s eternal salvation. Hebrews 5:9 tells us that Christ is the “cause of eternal salvation.” This verse speaks not of everlasting salvation but of eternal salvation, of which all the effects, benefits, and issues are of an eternal nature, transcending the conditions and limitations of time.

The eternal salvation we have in Christ is based on the eternal redemption He has accomplished for us, which is much better than the temporary atonement carried out by the priests according to the order of Aaron. That temporary atonement covered sin but never put it away, whereas Christ’s eternal redemption has put away sin, solving the problem of sin forever. Furthermore, Christ’s eternal salvation is not merely an objective redemption to solve our problem of sin on the negative side but also a subjective salvation to save us into His perfection and glorification on the positive side. Such an eternal salvation is not limited by time and space, for it is all-embracing with the divine element and nature. The divine element and nature of Christ are the basic constituents of His eternal salvation, which not only saves us from negative things but also saves us into positive things, even into God Himself. Such a saving is all-embracing, not limited by time and space.

(11) By Christ’s Mighty Hand

In John 10:28b the Lord Jesus declares concerning His believers, “No one shall snatch them out of My hand.” The Son’s mighty hand is for our protection. Not only the Father’s hand but also the Lord’s hand will keep us from perishing. No one can snatch us out of the Father’s hand nor out of the Lord’s hand. We are secured by two divine hands, the Father’s hand of love and the Son’s hand of grace, both of which are powerful to keep. Because the hands of the Father and the Son will never fail, the believers are eternally secured and will never perish.

(12) By Christ’s Unfailing Promise

Finally, our salvation is secured by Christ’s unfailing promise. The Lord Jesus said, “All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and him that comes to Me I will by no means cast out” (John 6:37). Here we see that the Lord Jesus promised that He will never reject or forsake anyone who comes to Him.

All the verses concerning the twelve factors of the security of our salvation are clear and unambiguous. These verses give us a solid foundation for the security of our salvation, and nothing can annul them. Therefore, all the believers in Christ may have the proper faith to believe that God’s salvation is eternal.

Wow, you are fast in pointing it out (I guess you might have thought of it) I alluded that in "Of course, there is the matter of the reward of the kingdom / dispensational punishments in the 1000 years millennium, this has nothing do with salvation and going to hell." It is a large subject.

Saved but Not Receiving the Kingdom Reward

In the New Testament, from Matthew to Revelation, there is a line of thought concerning reward, and we would do well to pay attention to it. In Matthew 5 and 6 the Lord Jesus speaks repeatedly concerning reward (5:12, 46; 6:1-2, 5, 16). In 1 Corinthians 3:8 Paul says, “Each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.” Then in verse 14 he goes on to say, “If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.” In Revelation 22:12 the Lord Jesus says, “Behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me to render to each one as his work is.”

There is a great difference between salvation and reward. “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works that no one should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9). This clearly and emphatically reveals that eternal salvation is altogether by grace through faith, having nothing to do with our works. Nothing that we have done, are doing, or will do can affect our eternal salvation (a gift) which is absolutely a matter of God’s grace (a gift) through our faith (a gift) in the Lord Jesus. God has imparted to us the ability to believe in the Lord Jesus, and by believing we are saved and have life inHis name (Acts 16:31; John 20:31).

Once we have been saved, we cannot be lost; that is, we cannot suffer eternal perdition. Those who have been saved by grace through faith will never perish (John 10:28-29). Our eternal salvation is forever secured by the will of God, by the selection and calling of God, by the love and grace of God, by the righteousness of God, by the covenant of God, by the power of God, by the life of God, by God Himself, by the redemption of Christ, by the power of Christ, and by the promise of Christ. We have been born of God, and we cannot be unborn. By faith we have been joined to the Lord to become one spirit with Him in a marvelous organic union. This joining and union are eternally secure in the divine life. Regarding eternal salvation in relation to the kingdom re- ward, we must avoid extreme theological views. One extreme view insists that we are saved eternally and that we can lose neither our salvation nor the kingdom reward. The other extreme view claims that salvation is conditional upon good behavior and that we can lose both our salvation and the kingdom reward. The truth in the Bible is balanced: eternal salvation is by grace through faith, and it cannot be lost; the kingdom reward involves righteousness and works, and it can be forfeited.

A Reward according to Our Works

Hebrews 10:35 says, “Do not cast away therefore your boldness, which has great reward.” This reward is the kingdom reward, which is something in addition to eternal salvation. Whereas eternal salvation is by grace through faith, having nothing to do with our works, the kingdom reward is given for our work as believers in Christ. According to 1 Corinthians 3:8 we will be re-warded according to our labor, for the Lord will give to us according to our work (Rev. 22:12). Although we are saved, we may not receive the kingdom reward because we are devoid of the work which the Lord can approve (1 Cor. 3:15; Matt. 7:21-23). If we do not labor by the Lord’s all-sufficient grace to carry out His economy (1 Cor. 15:10; 2 Cor. 12:9) and if our work does not remain after it has been tried by fire, we will not receive the reward of the kingdom. It is contrary to the Scriptures to teach that all believers will receive the kingdom reward no matter how they live and work after they are saved. The basic truth concerning the kingdom reward is this— receiving the kingdom reward is not a matter of God’s saving grace but of our subsequent work. If we are faithful servants in this age, we will enjoy the kingdom with the Lord in the coming age (Matt. 25:21, 23). If we are not faithful, we will suffer loss and undergo some kind of dispensational punishment (v. 30).

The kingdom reward will be decided at the judgment seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10), where the Lord will “bring to light the hidden things of darkness and make manifest the counsels of the hearts” (1 Cor. 4:5). At His coming back, the Lord Jesus will set up His judgment seat and judge all the believers with respect to their life and work. There, at the judgment seat, the decision will be made regarding the kingdom reward, with the Lord, the righteous Judge, determining who will receive the kingdom reward (2 Tim. 4:8). Those who receive this reward will enter into the joy of the Lord and reign with Him as His co-kings, sitting with Him on His throne. This will be the fulfillment of the Lord’s promise in Revelation 3:21: “He who overcomes, to him I will give to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat with My Father on His throne.”

Moses looked away to the kingdom reward (Heb. 11:26) and Paul endeavored to obtain it (1 Cor. 9:24-27). Throughout the course of his Christian life, Paul was running the race for the kingdom reward, not having the assurance that he had laid hold of this reward. Only at the end of his life, immediately before his martyrdom, did he know for certain that the crown of righteousness had been prepared for him and for all who love the Lord’s appearing (2 Tim. 4:7-8). With Paul as our pattern (1 Tim. 1:16), we should run the race set before us, not trusting in ourselves or assuming that all is well simply because we are saved. We may receive the kingdom reward or we may not. For all of us, this matter is pending the Lord’s decision at His judgment seat. The Lord’s word concerning the kingdom reward is serious and weighty. It is truly a word of righteousness...

This balanced understanding solves both extreme views: Calvinism vs Arminism. It will help you now to understand passages especially in Matthew 24 and 25, other portions of Matthews and Hebrews. (Your question) Weeping indicates regret, and gnashing of teeth indicates self blame.

If we cooperate with God's supplying grace, we will mature in life in the church age, and this earlier maturity in life will constitute a prize with which the Lord will reward us at His coming back. However, those who do not mature in life in the church age will not be ready at the Lord's coming back to enter into the millennial kingdom and share in the divine blessings of that age as a prize. Therefore, during the millennial kingdom their names will be erased from the book of life. After being disciplined by the Lord and growing in life unto maturity during the millennial kingdom, they will share in the divine blessings in the stage of eternity. They did not cooperate with the Lord in the church age, will be dispensationally disciplined by the Lord during the millennial kingdom and will miss the divine blessings in that stage. However, the names of those who have lived an overcoming life in the church age will remain in the book of life during the coming age of the kingdom.

To participate in the coming kingdom is also to gain our soul, to save our soul, and to enjoy the salvation of our soul. If today we love only the Lord and not our soul, that is, our self, and if we live by Him and according to His standard, then when He comes back He will reward us with the kingdom. In the kingdom we shall have no problems, sorrows, or sufferings in our soul, for at that time we shall gain our soul, we shall save our soul, and we shall enjoy the salvation of our soul. However, if we are defeated believers, we shall be punished during the kingdom age, and that punishment will involve our soul, with the gnashing of teeth as a sign of suffering in our soul. (Matthew 16).

The question: will you be gained by the Lord in these 70-80 years or be perfected during the 1000 years? .... The good news, all will be matured as the New Jerusalem after the millennium.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Apr 18 2011, 04:05 PM

Haha, someone brave enough to ask. Yes, salvation is not "going to heaven" (but there is heaven and lake of fire ...). Mind you, this statement will riles a lot of feathers and thrashed years of Christian "traditions".... and offends a lot of dear brothers and sister here ...

The ultimate consummation of everything in the Bible is the New Jerusalem. What is the New Jerusalem in a nutshell:

a) it is a mingling, a constitution, of the Triune God with His chosen and redeemed people”

b) it is a composition of God’s chosen, redeemed, regenerated, sanctified, transformed, and glorified people who have been deified

c) the ultimate consummation of God’s complete salvation —the crystallization of the union and mingling of God with man, the processed and consummated Triune God with His regenerated, transformed, conformed, and glorified tripartite elect.

The New Jerusalem is not a physical city, as commonly believed by Christians. Rather, the book of Revelation indicates that the New Jerusalem is a divine and spiritual sign. The revelation of the entire book of Revelation is mainly made known to us by signs (Rev. 1:1) symbolizing important persons and things, such as the golden lampstands in 1:12, signifying the churches bearing the shining testimony of Jesus Christ; the stars in 1:16, signifying the bright and shining messengers of the churches; the mysterious Babylon the Great in 17:5, signifying religious Rome; and the bride in 19:7, signifying the overcoming saints as the spouse of Christ. Hence, the New Jerusalem also should be a sign, signifying the ultimate consummation of the divine Trinity dispensing Himself into His chosen people.

The Tabernacle of God
The New Jerusalem has two natures, humanity and divinity. According to its humanity, the New Jerusalem is the tabernacle of God among men-the dwelling place of God in His humanity among men on the earth (Rev. 21:3). In the Bible, the tabernacle is a human dwelling place. The New Jerusalem is a human dwelling place because it is constituted with humanity. It is God's human dwelling place on earth. John 1:14 says that God was incarnated in the flesh to tabernacle among men. He is God, but He has become a man. He partook of humanity as His nature, so He dwells in humanity.

The Temple of God
According to its divinity, the New Jerusalem is the temple of God as the dwelling place of His redeemed elect (Rev. 21:22). The holy city is the temple of God because it is divine. It is the temple of God, yet it is the dwelling place of His redeemed. How could this be? Because this is God's temple, the dweller must be divine, but what about us? Are we divine or human? According to its humanity, the New Jerusalem is the tabernacle, but God dwells in the tabernacle. God can dwell in a human dwelling place because He has become a man. According to the divinity of the New Jerusalem, it is a temple for God to dwell in. If you are only human and not divine, you cannot dwell in the temple. We human beings can dwell in a divine temple because we have been made God in life and in nature but not in the Godhead. The New Jerusalem is a mutual abode. According to its humanity, it is a human tabernacle. According to its divinity, it is a divine temple. It is a human dwelling place, but the Dweller is God. How can God dwell in a human place? Because He became a man. In the same way, how can we humans dwell in God's temple? Because we have been made God. This is the mutual abiding of God and man (John 14:20)

The Human Wife of the Redeeming God
According to its humanity, the New Jerusalem is the human wife (with the divine life and nature) of the Lamb- the redeeming God (21:2, 9). This human wife can marry a divine Person because she has the divine life and nature. This qualifies her to match the redeeming God. On the one hand, she is human. On the other hand, she is divine. Because she is human, she can be the redeeming God's human wife. Because she is divine, she can marry Him, a divine Person.

The Divine Husband of God's Redeemed Elect
According to its divinity, it is the divine Husband (the redeeming God in His consummated embodiment, Christ, with the human life and nature) of God's redeemed elect. The wife is human, and the Husband is divine. How can a human wife marry a divine Person? Because she has the divine Person's divine nature and life. How can the same entity also be a husband? Because the New Jerusalem is divine. The divine God is a part of its constituent. Therefore, on the one hand, it is a wife. On the other hand, it is a husband. The New Jerusalem is the wife according to its humanity and the husband according to its divinity. But as the divine Husband, the New Jerusalem has the human life and nature. In its humanity and in its divinity it is both a mutual abode and a couple, a wife and a husband.

You will notice its base is gold, silver and precious stone. The river going forth from Garden of Eden in Genesis issues in three precious materials, which typify the Triune God as the basic elements of the structure of God’s eternal building—Gen. 2:12; Rev. 21:11, 18-21:

Gold typifies God the Father with His divine nature as the base of God’s eternal building—2 Pet. 1:4.
Bdellium, a pearl-like material produced from the resin of a tree, typifies the produce of God the Son in His redeeming and life-releasing death and His life-dispensing resurrection as the entry into God’s eternal building—John 19:34; 12:24; cf. Rev. 21:21.
Onyx, a precious stone, typifies the produce of God the Spirit with His transforming work for the building up of God’s eternal building—2 Cor. 3:18; Rom. 12:2.

This is mentioned by Paul in 1 Cor. 3 and the base of the city of New Jerusalem is constituted of gold, silver and precious stones.

1) New Jerusalem is of pure gold; it is constituted with and full of God’s life and nature. Her appearance and light are like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone (v. 11). The foundations of the wall of the city are adorned with every precious stone, and the first foundation is jasper (v. 19). Revelation 4:2-3 says that the One who is sitting on the throne is like a jasper stone in appearance. Hence, the appearance of the city is God. The city proper refers to its content, which is pure gold; the wall refers to its appearance, which is precious stones. This matches the definition in the Bible. The inward nature of those who are saved is absolutely God’s golden nature, and the outward appearance is precious stones, the appearance of God. The content of the city is gold, and her appearance before the nations is precious stones; she has God’s glorious nature within and God’s glorious image without.

2) Silver signifies the redeeming Christ with all the virtues of His person and work. Today the Son of God is signified in God's building as the silver. With bdellium there was the thought of life secretion only, but with silver there is the thought of redemption, which includes the shedding of blood and the secretion of life. Although pearl is replaced with silver in 1 Corinthians because of the need for redemption, pearl was God's original concept.

Consider how a pearl is formed. An oyster living in the sea is wounded by a piece of sand. The oyster secretes life juice around the grain of sand until the sand becomes a pearl. Christ is the oyster who lived in the ocean of this world. We are the grains of sand that wound Him and, after injuring Him, stay at His wound. His life secretes His life essence, enveloping us with it layer upon layer. Eventually, after becoming fully enclosed by this life-secretion, we become a pearl (Matt. 13:46). This is the experience of regeneration. Originally, we were small pieces of sand, but we became pearls as the life juice of Christ enveloped our being. Every gate of the New Jerusalem is a pearl, signifying the entrance into the kingdom of God (Rev. 21:21). The Lord Jesus said that unless we are born anew we cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5; cf. Titus 3:5). We all have been born again and can enter into the kingdom. Furthermore, by becoming pearls, we even become the entrance itself.

Today, experiential, we seek the daily experience of the resurrection of Christ subjectively by the bountiful supply of the Spirit (the reality of resurrection) of Jesus Christ that they may be conformed to the image of the firstborn Son of God (Phil. 1:19; Rom. 8:29). We are required to do two things: to experience Christ's death subjectively in our daily walk and also to experience the power of resurrection in our daily walk.

3) Where do precious stones come from? A precious stone is a transformed item. All precious stones originally were of other materials. Some of them were formed into igneous rocks by pressure and heat. Others were formed into sedimentary rocks by pressure and by the flowing of water. All became precious stones. Diamond (Exo. 28:18) is formed out of carbon by heat and pressure. Under extreme pressure and intense heat the carbon becomes a diamond. These are the principles of the transformation of precious stones.

We, the believers in Christ, were created by God with dust (Gen. 2:7). Through our regeneration by the Spirit we became stones (John 1:42). When Peter came to the Lord, the Lord told him he was a stone. He was no longer dust. By our growth in the divine life in Christ as the living stone (1 Pet. 2:4), we are transformed into precious stones (1 Cor. 3:12a).

This transformation takes place by the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:18). With Christ there is His death and resurrection. With the Spirit there is transformation. God is triune and His intention is to work Himself into us as the gold to be the base. In other words, He works Himself into us to make us divine, golden. But how can God work Himself into us? He does this by Christ's redemption and resurrection and also by the Spirit's transformation. The Father's golden nature is the base. The Son's redemption and resurrection are the steps to work the Triune God into us. Christ died on the cross with the intention of working the Father into His believers as the golden base. Then in resurrection He became the life-giving Spirit to carry out the work of transformation.

We may have the base, redemption, and resurrection, but if we do not have transformation we are still not golden. We are dusty, because we were made by God in the old creation. But God works Himself into us as the gold through Christ's redemption and resurrection by the transformation of the Spirit. This is the working of the Triune God to bring Himself into our being and transform us altogether into His image.

..............


(This subject is too awesome and a lot to say and share e.g. its furnishing, throne, supply, etc (it's experiential today) .... but I defer to another time .. only if you are really interested ...)

How can this compare with going to heaven .... (sigh) here goes the bomb ....

1. Who am I to judge what they see ... only according to the Word, everyone who dies will go to Hades, a temporary place awaiting the resurrection and the judgement. Of course, the believers (those who received God as life) will be in the Paradise section.

In the New Testament the Lord Jesus tells us a story in Luke 16. In this story there are two men—a rich man and a beggar named Lazarus. When the time came, the rich man died, was buried, and was in torment in Hades (vv. 19-23). Perhaps some may say that it was proper for this rich man to go to Hades since he was an unsaved person. Yet Lazarus who was saved also went to Hades at his death, because it says that in Hades the rich man “lifted up his eyes...and saw Abraham from afar and Lazarus in his bosom. And he called out and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this flame. But Abraham said, Child, remember that in your lifetime you fully received your good things, and Lazarus likewise bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish” (vv. 23-25). Here we are told that the rich man went to Hades and that Lazarus was also in Hades. We cannot say that Lazarus was in a heavenly mansion at that time because the rich man saw Lazarus in Abraham’s bosom. Moreover, while he was in the flames in Hades, the rich man could talk to Abraham, who was in a place of comfort. This shows us that they were somewhat near each other. Although they were separated by a great chasm, they could talk to each other and hear each other.

In the Old Testament Genesis says that Jacob went to Sheol after his death and went to be with his fathers, one of whom was Abraham. This indicates that Abraham was in Hades, which is also called Sheol. Then in the New Testament when we come to Luke 16, and it says that Abraham was in Hades, except that Abraham was in a place of comfort, as was Lazarus who was also saved. This indicates that there are different sections in Hades. According to Luke, there is a section of Hades that is full of flames and where the spirits and souls of the unsaved ones go to be tormented after they die. There is also another section where Abraham is and where the spirits and souls of the saved ones go to be comforted after they die. Although there is a difference, they are both in Hades. This is what Genesis in the Old Testament and Luke in the New Testament show us.


2. I know what most commentary said and they are having a LOT of problems reconciling with other portions of the Bible (used by non-OSAS - once saved always saved - advocates). As they are usually ones who subscribed to OSAS, which is scriptural, but only 1 part of the coin, they will have problem trying to interpret the foolish virgins, slaves, narrow way etc. The only way they could is to interpret them as unsaved ones.

But you have always remember the audience at the time were the disciples, the representative of us, the believers. (Your question on who[/b] are these people that self blaming) I did answered that in the previous post, that they are the defeated believers in the church age. If we are not the overcoming ones in this age, we will be the defeated ones who will be punished. The punishment to the unbelievers is one of condemnation and perdition. However, to the defeated believers, the punishment is a discipline. The Lord will discipline the defeated ones to perfect them. We may have been Christians for years without being perfected. If we have not been perfected in the present age, we will miss the reward and receive a punishment as a discipline to perfect us in the coming age.

They are self-blaming with regret of not being an overcomer in the church age. They are being disciplined (outer darkness, saved as through fire) in the kingdom of a thousand years revealed in Revelation 20:4-6. It is generally called the millennium. The kingdom of a thousand years is different from the New Testament church.

This is according to the Lord’s promise in Revelation 3:12: “He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall by no means go out anymore, and I will write upon him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which descends out of heaven from My God, and My new name.” The mentioning of the New Jerusalem as a prize to the overcomer indicates that this promise will be fulfilled in the millennial kingdom. The New Jerusalem in the millennial kingdom will be a prize only to the overcoming saints, whereas the New Jerusalem in the new heaven and new earth will be the common portion of all the redeemed for eternity. Thus, the overcomers will enter into the New Jerusalem a thousand years earlier than the defeated believers. Those who are defeated in this age will delay their entry in becoming the New Jerusalem by a thousand years.

(You want me to share more on 10 virgins according to this principle of reward? kinda a bit tired on typing )

Yoh 3:16 Kerana Tuhan begitu mengasihi dunia sehingga Dia menyerahkan Anak tunggal-Nya, supaya semua yang percaya ke dalam-Nya tidak binasa, tetapi beroleh hayat abadi.

That is a loaded question .... logically, you know the answer, no, not personally, there are principles, also 2000 years of Christians "stuffs" etc which you should inherit but still need to check with the Bible (some aren't scriptural... really)

But I cannot sense or deduce what is the reason that you ask.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Apr 19 2011, 11:07 AM

Lol, yeah ... you are right

I will give you a few verses and hope you consider it

First Timothy 2:4 says, “Who[God] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the full knowledge of the truth”

After the Israelites came out of Egypt, they came to Mount Sinai. God charged Moses to speak to the Israelites, saying, “Ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation” (Exo. 19:6). God told the Israelites that they would be a kingdom of priests. He meant that He wanted the whole nation to be priests. No one in the nation would be an ordinary person; the whole kingdom would be priests. This was God’s purpose.

1 Peter 2:4-5 and 9 says, “Coming to Him, a living stone, rejected by men but with God chosen and precious, you yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house into a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ... You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people acquired for a possession.”

All New Testament believers are priests.



This post has been edited by pehkay: Apr 19 2011, 11:30 AM

It will be very few (no one knows). But it is not about "enter the kingdom of God" .... it's not about salvation.

This is why the call for overcomers in Rev 2 is very clear.

In other words, the church will fail in this age. Only the small group of overcomers will be the representative, the Zion, that will have the reality of the church today.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Apr 20 2011, 05:56 PM

Just walk according to the spirit.

It is not a matter of outward right or wrong; rather, it is a matter of our living Him in the spirit, in the one mingled spirit. This is what God wants today, and this is today’s Christian life. The Christian life is neither religious nor moral; it is neither natural nor cultural. The Christian life is a life that is lived out of the two spirits becoming one spirit. When we speak, we speak out of this mingled spirit. When we do things, we do them out of this mingled spirit. Our going or not going to a certain place also comes out of this mingled spirit. This is to walk according to the spirit.

Although we do not stress morality, Paul said that when we walk according to the spirit, we spontaneously fulfill the righteous requirements of the law (Rom. 8:4). Although we do not pay much attention to so-called ethics, when we walk according to the spirit, our ethics will be the highest. The husband will love his wife even more, and the wife will subject herself to her husband even more. Because at this point, it is not we who are in subjection or we who love; rather, it is the Lord who lives out of us as our subjection and our love.

This is God’s living in us, and this is also our living out God. These two spirits becoming one spirit is the greatest mystery in the universe; it is something incomprehensible to the human mind (Rom 8:16). However, we praise and thank the Lord that because God took these two great steps—becoming flesh in order to accomplish redemption for us and resurrecting from the dead in order to dispense Himself into us to be our life—we all have become Christians who have the mingled spirit and who live with the Lord.

Some intrinsic significance on resurrection of Christ than the usual traditional understanding ....

Resurrection implies three big things:

The Birth of the Firstborn Son of God

First, in resurrection, Christ was born to be the firstborn Son of God. How many have ever heard that resurrection was a birth to Christ? Who has ever thought that besides the incarnation, Christ had another birth in His resurrection?

Acts 13:33 says, "That God has fully fulfilled this promise to us their children in raising up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, `You are My Son; today I have begotten You.'" Today in this verse was the day of resurrection. Christ was begotten by God in resurrection to be God's firstborn Son. How many Christians have heard this truth? But this truth is in the Bible. Christ was the only begotten Son of God even before His incarnation (John 1:18). His incarnation was the coming of the only begotten Son of God (3:16). This Son of God was incarnated to be a man. But Acts 13:33 unveils that in resurrection God begot Christ to be the firstborn Son of God among many brothers (Rom. 8:29).

The Regeneration of the Many Sons of God

Also, the Bible tells us that we, the God-chosen people, were regenerated in Christ's resurrection. First Peter 1:3 says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." God has regenerated us through the resurrection of Christ. In resurrection God begot a Son, Jesus Christ, and in resurrection God regenerated many sons. This shows us that the resurrection of Christ was a great delivery. In that same delivery, the Firstborn was Christ, and this firstborn Brother had many "twins" to follow Him. In the unique resurrection Christ was born and we were regenerated, so we were His "twins" in the same delivery.

The Last Adam Becoming a Life-giving Spirit

Also, in this same resurrection, Christ became a life-giving Spirit. The holy Scripture says in 1 Corinthians 15:45b, "The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit."

If you ask someone what has been accomplished by God in Christ's resurrection, he may simply say that God raised up Christ from the dead. Surely this is fundamental and according to the Scripture. But in the same Bible there are three marvelous verses which show us the intrinsic significance of Christ's resurrection. First, Acts 13:33 tells us that in resurrection God accomplished a birth. In resurrection God begot Christ to be His firstborn Son. Then 1 Peter 1:3 tells us that through resurrection God regenerated us, the millions of God-chosen people. There was such a great delivery, a great begetting, in resurrection. Third, 1 Corinthians 15:45b tells us that in resurrection the last Adam, the man Jesus, became a life-giving Spirit. These three great things took place and were accomplished in the resurrection of Christ.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Apr 24 2011, 06:09 PM

Why do we need to?

We don't even believe in this our-self

Haha .. might as well say we copied from Egyptian mythology.

actually the notion of "going to heaven" is very unscriptural. You can check my previous post with mumeichan.

If you like some "not so light" readings:

http://www.affcrit.com/pdfs/2000/02/00_02_a3.pdf

http://www.affcrit.com/pdfs/2000/02/00_02_a2.pdf - a quick history of "heaven"

This is why we will encourage you to always check the Word as you hear from us. I usually try to put as much Scriptures as I can when sharing with you. Do check them. In one sense, don't fully "trust" our speaking as we are all fallen men with strange bias and backgrounds.

The Word is living and operative, and are not dead letters.

Well, you did ask my opinion on those matters ... and these are MY OPINIONS and have nothing to do with the Bible. As usual, they are not central things in the Bible.

============================
MY OPINION
============================

I won't know what your churchmate's sister saw. Logically, I will ask how a non-Christians knows what is an angel? Did she saw a person with wings?
I was once corrected by someone that there is no record of angels having wings in the Bible . Why will they need wings? They could travel beyond space and time I have heard of a story of young child (pureness?) seeing "someone" in white standing behind/beside a person on a podium. But the description never mention wings ... I am afraid we are too much "influenced" by traditions/cultures/TVs...

Mostly, I heard testimonies of believers having seen demonic possessions. These tend to be more common occurrence, though very few.

I will admit that I (and perhaps others) tend to prefer "going to heaven/going up there" than going down due to many religious backgrounds. Even symbolically, going up is better than going down

Eph 4
9 (Now this, "He ascended,'' what is it except that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended, He is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens that He might fill all things.)

Even the Lord descended first before His ascension. Who are you that you get to ascend right after death ? John 3:13, which was spoken by the Lord Jesus while He was on the earth as the Son of Man, says, “And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven.”

Perhaps the angel is taking him down later?

This post has been edited by pehkay: May 20 2011, 11:55 AM

I stand corrected if angel = seraphim ... you know any verses on angel specifically?

In the Old Testament there are two kinds of messengers: (1) the cherubim and (2) the seraphim. The cherubim have only four wings (Ezek. 1:6) and the seraphim have six (Isa. 6:2). The four living creatures here in Revelation resemble the four living creatures spoken of by Ezekiel-they have the faces of the cherubim (Ezek. 1:10) and the wings of the seraphim (Isa. 6:2).