Hi all,

I am just into the world of DSLR and puzzling the real intention of many enthusiast photographer. The Ultimate purpose of having a DSLR is to capture some nice images or all about the photography gear? Auntie, uncle, dad, mom, granny all holding a DSLR nowdays, why? Enthusiast need L lens or full frame camera? really puzzling me alot, but this industry is thriving like nobody business. An enthusiast or leisure photo takers like me and many others why should we buy a profesional level type of gear? Someone may say better quality, less CA, less pupple fringing, etc or they just wanted to gratify their craze on this gizmos. I know buying gear is kinda fun but what is the puspose of having such a top notch gears ending all theirs picture uploaded to facebook, flicker,etc. OR should spend more effort to learn, develop and appreciate photography instead of spending thousands on the gear.
I reckon photography is a very subjective piece of art like painting, music, dancing, acting, etc. (different ppl may have different comment or idea on your photo) and with todays technology i beleive photography is among the easiest to learn or start with in comparison to the others, agree? Not agree? hahaha! or at least the one with less effort but can produce some immediate result, sounds better huh? go out and survey how many of your friends/ colegue/ relative owning a DSLR? vs how of them can/ appreciate paint, play a music instrument, dance, etc.

Please ignore the above if you feel it is annoying to you.

This post has been edited by bluesfingers: Jan 10 2011, 06:16 PM

This is what I just posted on Nikon thread (this morning).
a very wise man told me a comparison of picaso and engineer man.



To draw a good picture with a perfect technique engineer man will be able to do the job as their best.
however to draw a mad art work of art picaso still at his best.
and he doubt giving picaso a better brush and canvas will affect the drawing quality.

so it's all come back to you.
what are you??

for me personally the mad artist picaso produce a better product compared to perfect technique picture of an engineer.

some statements from pro which might be able to back me up
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/notcamera.htm
http://thephotoletariat.com/good-photograp...bout-the-story/

The original sentence of the wise man that I told you:
http://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...&#entry38997572

This post has been edited by aldosoesilo: Jan 10 2011, 06:29 PM

i never have thoughts that photography is something that is easy to learn. It is a delicate art of its own which requires years of practise hardwork and perserverance to achieve the final result. It's easy for a layperson to say... Well he got expensive dslr and gears to produce such picture. But believe me, any good photographers, they have put in so much thoughts in their work, to produce the best combination of light, composition, feel and more. It takes a lot of sacrifice to get the results you want. Not as easy as one thinks.

I can't say that gears are not important. For anyone who are serious to learn up photography, a decent DSLR or an SLR in the old days has become a de facto standard, as it allows the user to be able to go manual, at least for like 10 years ago. Nowadays, anyone can also go for manual on prosumer pns... and can be a good camera to learn as well..

To me the same question still remains. Will the gears improve my photography? Well, the answer can be yes in some aspects. I can get very good creamy bokeh. IQ very good that it produce some outstanding results. But then, am i keep thinking about gears to solve some of the camera limitation that i may have missed out certain areas of photography that i have missed out with current gears. Owning a new gear sure is nice. But being able to pick up a new skill to be added to your creative toolbox is equally as satisfying.


This post has been edited by geekster129: Jan 10 2011, 07:06 PM

I somehow agree and disagree to what you have stated, photography is not an easy thing to learn. However, camera do have limitations. Says, I am using 18-55mm kit.

For example:
1. How do you produce a smooth and nice bokeh when you shoot portrait using a kit lens 18-55mm? For someone out there, maybe you can, but at least, I can't but I am happy with my result.
2. Everyone's unique, and so do their state of art. Someone out there may prefers bokeh, some may prefers sharp on whole picture. It just depends.
3. Even you have IS / VC on 18-55mm, you can hardly get a nice picture under extreme low light condition. That's why you need a larger aperture lens, or a flash unit.
4. A L lens consists of high quality glasses - fluorite. It's true that a L lens can guarantee your IQ, if and only if you know how to shoot a nice picture.

Enough for now. Can't think of others.

This post has been edited by AronC: Jan 10 2011, 06:40 PM

Both has to be good to get a good image - the pohtographer and the gears. There is no way a good photographer can create a good image with a cap ayam camera fitted with a cap itik lens.

So the first step is to have a good gear. If you still have a poor image like mine, then the problem is not the gear but the photographer.

are you sure?
entry levle camera + kit lens can do magic you know

how about a good picture of high end body + high end lenses vs. entry level camera + kit lens? there is a limitation of one can do I'm siding with AronC's statement on this topic

define your good picture.
if our definition good picture is the same thing.
I would say it is possible for entry level + kit lens to actually stepping over high end body+lens

Ok, interesting topic

I would like to see the differences between:-

1) 5DMKII on a 24-105mm L lens
VS
2) 1000D on a 18-55mm lens

Given all settings remain the same. Anyone can share??

Where is goldfries...

I don't see why most of professionals prefer high end body then. Name me 1 professional photographer that still uses entry level body and a kit lens for his serious photoshoot like headshots, modelling and etc etc ?

This post has been edited by ComradeZ: Jan 10 2011, 08:02 PM

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Added on January 10, 2011, 8:00 pmhttp://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/notcamera.htm
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/not-about-your-camera.htm

Walker Evans once said "People always ask me what camera I use. It's not the camera, it's - - - " and he tapped his temple with his index finger.

Jesus Christ's dad Joseph built a masterpiece of a wooden staircase in a church in New Mexico in 1873, and does anyone care what tools he used? Search all you want, you'll find plenty of scholarly discussion but never of the tools.

http://www.outdooreyes.com/aboutcamera.php3

If you can shoot well, all you need is a disposable, toy camera or a camera phone to create great work. If you're not talented, it doesn't matter if you buy a Nikon D3X or Leica; your work will still be uninspired.

Why is it that with over 60 years of improvements in cameras, lens sharpness and film grain, resolution and dynamic range that no one has been able to equal what Ansel Adams did back in the 1940s?

Kenrockwell pretty much answer the question.

This post has been edited by aldosoesilo: Jan 10 2011, 08:00 PM

Well... a good picture don't necessarily have to be tack sharp or bokeh-licious.

Just from some random google search

http://www.neatorama.com/2007/01/02/13-pho...nged-the-world/

Of course thats not saying that we don't want better gear lar.. we all do but until then.. live with what u have

Hahahah...

Then I don't see a reason why you want to update your gears in the next 5 years? You haven't really learn the limitation of your own gear, that is why you are saying things like this but once you learn it, you'll be craving to upgrade for a better equipment.

I myself, used to play with my dad's nikon film camera but hey, it have limitation. That is why, I get myself a 550d and maybe if I want more than just entry level camera, I'll upgrade again. Those kind of saying can't be applied with what the advancement technology have to give.

Yes, you can take a good picture with just a film camera, but what will happen when you use high end body dslr and a really good lens? isn't it become better? or worse? tell me now, sir. Why shouldn't people upgrade?

This post has been edited by ComradeZ: Jan 10 2011, 08:09 PM

OMG.. I didn't expect that. A Ken Rockwell quote

Might not solve the question at hand but its related somehow

wahlau, digest what you read a bit, don't blindly accept what you read. and especially if what you're reading has 'kenrockwell' in the URL.

I kinda L.O.L till tip off my chair

this is a good example

rofl, I think KTCY never give him proper explanation regarding the infamous Ken Rockwell

main reason i got a DSLR is for low noise capability.
theres only so much a PnS can do in low light.

I'm seeing Ken Rockwell all over the place.. where's Jared Polin and Chase Jarvis???

This post has been edited by geekster129: Jan 10 2011, 08:31 PM

Kai W pwns em all!

Don't forget Lok C too.

have we met?

suddenly mention me like this, I was hoping to avoid this topic wan cos i debate until tired already.

i put it simple la, to me the gear is important as a tool but that's as far as the importance goes. most important part is the person holding the tool.

i could have the best paintbrush, canvas and oil but if i am no good at using them, I'm going to be producing high quality rubbish.

why some photographers cost a bomb to hire? it's not because of their gear, it's because of what they can produce. their gear is just a tool.

generally agree but 4 is not entirely true. Even L lenses have flaws but they're all very good already. Even the non-L lenses are very good.

Believe it or not, in some cases you actually have to use non-L but expensive lenses.

For example if you're using an EOS 7D - you don't have any other ultra-wide angle other than EF-S 10-22 which is not an L but the performance is superb. Zoom range, nothing beats EF-S 15-85 and EF-S 17-55 for that range. All 3 of those cost more than L lenses. Canon's TS series 45 and 90 also cost more than L, they're not L either.

define good gear.

yes. assuming a good picture is good, the better gear does make it better.

how much better depends on what the actual compared item is.

photographer still same or not?



er......... me? haha. i never used 18-55 for actual jobs .......until last month when i was in the midst of equipment shuffling (seller FFK me!!!). no choice wat. if there's a need to fulfill and if you can deliver with your set of gears, I don't see the issue. I'm not ashamed to admit that as well.

upgrade will happen when people can afford. I would have nicer gears if I can afford them as well. I upgrade whenever possible but my upgrades are around 95% for my work purpose. I focus on skill upgrade first. It's not like I purposely stay back with low-end gears to show-off or anything. I just don't believe in eating maggi noodle / grass every day just to get gears.

I've been through enough with entry-level bodies and non-L lenses. - stock photos, qualification, award and prints on various magazines and locations in Malaysia. what else can I say?

lastly I end with my gallery http://www.shutterstock.com/g/briancyc . other pages http://www.dreamstime.com/Goldfries_info and http://depositphotos.com/portfolio.php?id=1030253

All taken with non-L lens. All taken with non-semi pro / non-pro bodies. ALL taken with the head and heart.

Anyway the above is just to share my experience.

Good night, have a nice day. Can PM me if you are interested to know what setup was used for which image in the gallery.

No dude...i'm no body just somebody who admire your work + knowing ur using entry level camera is just another boost for me

I dunno about you guys. But I define gear head as people who upgrade body.

Lens is not gear upgrade. It is the necessary to have good lens.
Also, flash is not gear upgrade. It is very very important.

To really enjoy dSLR photography:
a) if you're poor like me, get the cheapest body like 1000d.
b) get lens like 11-16mm f/2.8 Tokina + 85mm f/1.8 + 70-200mm (poor man setup)
c) get a flash at least got swivel and rotate (at least Di622). Recommended 580EX2..

Maybe I'm asking the wrong question.... how about name 1 of the top 10 professional photographer that uses entry level body and a kit lens

People will say upgrade yourself and don't just simply upgrade a mere tool. I'd say upgrade the tool to get a good result. Yes I know that people are gonna say "Then if you are snapping rubbish you will get a rubbish result either way". True but why limit the usage of the new technology?

Either way, getting a good gear is always a good thing. Don't limit yourself by saying to yourself "I have to upgrade myself and etc etc". If you want it then go for it. Then again, put your financial into account, if you have the money then by all means go for it but if you don't have money and telling others to not upgrade, wouldn't that be misguided advice?


There is so much you can do with new things. You don't know how to take a good picture? those things can be learn but if you want to overcome the limitation of your entry level gear? that 1 can't be change unless the upgrade occurs.




This post has been edited by ComradeZ: Jan 10 2011, 10:26 PM

have you guys seen this - http://www.engadget.com/2010/12/24/nokia-n...lr-on-magazine/
a quote from the short newspiece -> "we wanted to show that it is not the hardware that makes a good photographer but rather the technical execution of an idea""

Well I "smell" nokia's fish in the project. For me the photo is just so-so...

who in the right mind would do that?



do you happen to know of anyone doing that?

anyway there are plenty of experienced photographers with reputation and $$$ that encourage upgrade of self / skills as priority.

perhaps you haven't met them or experienced enough to see how important is the skill upgrade.

of course if you enjoy taking whatever you like with expensive gears, that's your call. no one's stopping you or saying it's wrong.

Similar?

They can talk all they want about camera phones being able to take "stunning" pictures or "just as good as a DSLR" or "camera phones can produce good quality pics, so it's the skill that's lacking" type of rubbish.

Look at all the nice nice expensive Lighting treatment they gave it. And to top it off, a really good and intensive Post Processing to alter the colours so much which they later claim as "good colours"

And how is this going to convince us that "camera phones" can take good quality pictures, without all those fancy lightings and PP softwares to "cover" all the ugly stuff? Kinda reminds me of the time when a professional wedding photographer who took an entire pre-wedding session with a PnS Canon S90. They claimed, that it was 'highly capable" or even taking "really pro wedding pics" but did you actually see how much PP was put into it? Kinda defeats the claim which they made..

What type of question is that?

This post has been edited by -kytz-: Jan 10 2011, 10:49 PM

if iphone can do such nice things i straight back out from this industry liao. dowan to do since so many iphone users. i is sked.

who in the right mind would do that?

exactly

perhaps you haven't met them or experienced enough to see how important is the skill upgrade.

nope, I met them and privately [though if I'm telling who I met, you or other people would just say "he must be lying" so I will just say that I met this Ma'am B. ] . Anyway they will all say upgrade your skill first but then again at last, they will say "upgrade your gear".

What I'm trying to say is if anyone have the money, why stop them? just because they havent develop the skill? it is just as the same having high end gear and still learning the basic, it is just a tool, so any tool would be fine, no?

Even for me, I don't have money but if I do, I would upgrade. I'm not saying as if you don't have money, you must still upgrade... no.. I say "Then again, put your financial into account, if you have the money then by all means go for it"

maybe my choice of words is a bit of harsh but it is what I think is logic



P.S:If it is me, I would "upgrade" myself to d40x since I love that body but if I want to be more serious in this harsh and spreading world of photography. I would also require some new hardware

This post has been edited by ComradeZ: Jan 10 2011, 11:00 PM

advices are advices. there's many ways to see things in life. so you share your piece, others share theirs. then up to the fella with the $$$ to decide mah.

for me my path is always about starting with something simple to test the water. if suddenly work makes you have no time, or photography not your thing. abandoning also not so painful. you can even keep it without feeling that much wound in your $$$ account. of course that's my POV la, some people agree. some don't. so there are 2 sides on this matter. why you sound like to anti-people giving such advice?

then there's the other one that goes buy the best you can afford so you no need to upgrade in future. they have valid points but there are also counter points. no need to get all fired up over differences in opinion, right?

If u ask me, if I don't bloody care about you and your photography, by all means I'll just ask you to upgrade, even knowing that your problem truly is about your skills.

However, as a concerned forumer LOL I'd rather recommend a "skill upgrade" instead, as it is a free advice, no cost incurred and it doesn't hurt your wallet either.

Isnt' it so easy to ask you to BUY BUY BUY everytime you complain of a problem? That guy complains of lousy event shoot... I just say Get a super fast prime 30 f/1.4. Period? I can always do that you know, it's just so damn easy..

But, not many would really ask you about what's your real problem, how to tackle it, maybe it's a composition problem? Lighting? Let's give you steps on how to counter it , do this that bla bla

This post has been edited by -kytz-: Jan 10 2011, 11:04 PM

I'm sorry if my choice of words sounded like that by all means, skill is important but getting the right gear is also as important as it is. Thus getting a good result is a combo of both of that

once again, I'm sorry for my harsh words

This post has been edited by ComradeZ: Jan 10 2011, 11:05 PM

a lot of people under-estimate their gear. I'm sure many out there 1st thing come to their mind "my gear not good enough."

then go browse around - "eh how come this fella use same thing snap so nice?"

in some cases like if you shoot product or portraits, a 550D works like a 60D and 7D. Remember the Coffee vs Tea vs Coffee + Tea mix video from DigitalRev?

When you reach certain limitation. You will also be force to upgrade... like what you bought after buying 550d+50mm 1.8 ii at first and care to tell me what do you get after that? after you know the actual limitation? what did you bought from after you purchased your first dslr?

"Upgrading" is an easy way out *inviting flame*

Limitation?

Let's say, I have a 50 f/1.8 lens. I want a wider and faster prime. Has the nifty fifty reached it's limitation?

I guess it's kinda subjective laa, focal length for example.

Added: I got limited when I couldn't wide shots so I got a 2nd hand 1855. Also, it's very versatile..

Got myself a flashgun for event shooting as it's almost a necessity to remove those ugly shadows and all.

So yeah.. limitations

This post has been edited by -kytz-: Jan 10 2011, 11:24 PM

Comradez - chill la. kytz is just saying that some issues could be well solved by educating the person on techniques to improve the shots rather than just BUY, which doesn't exactly solve the matter but techniques learned can be applied for future photos taken.

imagine telling the fella to BUY already then the happy buyer go snap already still turn out similar, he / she will be disappointed.

that's all what kytz was saying. he didn't say don't upgrade.

you bought 18-55 for wider shot and you bought flash to light up your subjects, thats what I'm trying to tell... you reach certain limitation and the way to solve it is by "upgrading" or buying more gear.

It is simple actually, buy what you can base on what you need. Don't limit yourself just because skill aren't developed. Skill can be learn trough any tool and I mean it "any tool at all". The only thing that to avoid is overspending.

can't say it's easy way out also.

upgrading is sometimes the only way out, yet sometimes it's not even a way out.

for example, going from 50mm f1.8 to 1.4 or 1.2 - if it was composition / technique problem then it is not a way out.

but for some cases, if you need macro and your existing lenses can't - there's no way out. your only option is to buy / upgrade.

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Added on January 10, 2011, 11:26 pm

don't buy how to improve skill? eg you want to learn macro, no macro lens how to learn macro? but that doesn't mean you buy the most expensive out there la. can settle with cheap ones also no issue.

more important is to buy with understanding.

L.O.L, wah it sounded like I'm the bad guy relax, I didn't tell people to buy the most expensive stuff....what I'm trying to tell is buy the gear to overcome the limitation meaning of course, you already know what limiting you and what you should buy. Meaning that you must done your own research or ask somebody about what needed to be upgrade.

What I'm originally trying to say is "buy what you can to either get a good result or overcome limitation" not overspending the money to manifest your heart and desire... you guys are getting me wrong here....

This post has been edited by ComradeZ: Jan 10 2011, 11:36 PM

no la. i was just saying sometimes you really have to buy to try out stuff. what can 18-55 do la? it's when you know the limitation, you'll get more stuff.

that's why i always recommend go 18-55 (regardless of brand) first. from there you know better what you would like to have, to cater to your preference.

that's why we have TT sessions. sure we say "poison" la but it's actually a chance for people to try out stuff they don't have.

thats what I'm trying to tell.



and also this

Actually i was poison quite alot cos i liek the feel good factor even-though u know that u dun need such a good lens. E.g Sports car when the road in malaysia max is 110kph. Technique is very important however decent lens and flash are basic to go further.

Im wondering when unker fishermen will come in and say
BUY BUY BUY'

I think better gear will certainly help, why limit yourself when you can benefit from advanced imaging technology? Or you are trying to be the ninja in photography

Anyway, cheers and have a relaxed discussion

Some ppl just want to follow the flow and buy even tho they actually dont need to, but just from hearsay from others that dslr produce "better" pictures than compact, they will get "poisoned". But they fail to realize how they define that "better than compact" photo in the first place.

Same like car oso, u want to move from point a to b, a kancil is enuff, or even a motorbike. oh yea, u can also walk if u want to.. but some ppl will choose a honda city/toyo vios or ferrari to get from point a to b.. but in the end, everybody will eventually get to point b no matter how/what way they took.. its not how u get there, but will u ever get there at all. same as dslr (aka ferrari) and compact (motorbike).. tho the motobike way will sometimes went thru some obstacles (raining etc), or in compact case (lens is not wide enuff, focal range is not far enuff, focusing speed is not fast enuff, very noisy af motor etc).. u got the idea..

Some ppl are lucky enuff (or even work their @rs3 off) and got lots of money to spend on those luxury gears.. they wud think, "hey, if i have some xtra cash, why not trying out the best".. some other dude (like myself), just stuck with sub RM2k 3rd party lens (at most i can afford).. but then again, the price of dslr is getting way too low currently.. why not get a "ferrari" if the price if abt the same as "honda accord".. but me, i'm just stuck with my "kancil"..huhu.. :'(

i am artist (as in painting) i have a set of about 7-8 year old brush, cheapo ones, i still paint with them, and each time i paint, i improve... i dont have to buy those brush made from panda or grizzly bear from the mountain of noname... its not my art.

in end of the day, there are millions of children of all age (and adults) uses the SAME brush as i do. i dont see they paint better then me.

This post has been edited by ieR: Jan 11 2011, 09:30 AM

then suddenly you feel like doing oil painting. Wait, you don't have oil painting set. So what you do? You buy buy buy

cute.

well, u dont get the point. even u have all the "best" brush that u think can make u stand out from the crowd of common brush users... doesnt mean ur picture will be the award winning or masterpiece...

to answer ur question, not everyone will wan a macro lens. or a IR converted camera. if 'i feeling like' shooting IR, do i get a IR camera? not until i ABSOLUTELY need and wanted to get IR pic, yea, but i can always find/borrow from a friend. so if i felt like painting a oil painting, i can always get the brush from my artist friends.

This post has been edited by ieR: Jan 11 2011, 09:39 AM

hehe...

well, u dont get the point. sometimes if you find certain things limiting, you have to buy it. Example is flash. Without
powerful rotating/swivel lens, you definitely will not able to achieve great lighting indoor. Sometimes, things you need
to buy. Not everything you can borrow. I might not have friend with 580EX2. Even they have, I also don't want to borrow
because not everyone will willing to part with their precious item especially lens.

Speaking of oil painting, do you mean you get oil painting whole range of item from ur friend and use it for free? good
friend you have there...

adui....why these days this forum so many heated discussion one?

BTW, yes, i am using a L lens, and yes my skill still sux, but i enjoy using it because my other lens is prime lens, and i don't like the color outcome of it, and yes, i am quite stupid to skip kit lens

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Added on January 11, 2011, 9:54 amand btw, i find that my best upgrade is still the flash lol.

btw, i do believe in few things

1) sux skill person using sux tools = sux outcome
2) sux skill person using great tools = might or might not get better outcome
3) awesome skill person using sux tools = good outcome
4) awesome skill person using great tools = awesome outcome

no matter it's painting, music, photography, driving.

another example is like

you ask Michael Schumacher drive kancil at sepang, and ask alex yoong drive a F1 car at sepang. who will win leh?

PS:

I gona change my example a bit:

if Michael Schumacher (awesome skill) drive kancil (sux tools) VS alex yoong (normal skill ) drive F1 car (great tools). Alex Yoong will win

BUT

if I (sux skill) drive F1 car (great tools) vs Michael Schumacher (awesome skill) drive kancil (sux tools). Who will win? I don't know. Maybe I can't even control the car, so I still lose. Maybe I can control the car but using 10% of it's performance, then maybe I can win.

Hence the outcome of sux person using great tools is = might or might not get better outcome

This post has been edited by samlee860407: Jan 11 2011, 10:11 AM

of course... flash is everything... if u lighted up properly, kitlens become awesome too ... lol

Spot on..I like your example..so Schumacher is the winner is it?

can I answer the easy question!!!!

Alex Yoong...

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Added on January 11, 2011, 10:04 amini..ini.. trolling answer..

This post has been edited by gogo2: Jan 11 2011, 10:04 AM

There are certain phases which one who dabbles in DSLR photography goes through.

The first phase is 'buy the camera' phase:

This is when one first buys a dslr cam. Usually it will be an entry level body plus kit lens. If you have not ventured before in dslr you will logically not want to spend too much on it, right?


The second is the 'initial learning and poisoning by others' phase:

One starts to get familiar with dslr and the system's many gear options. One gets sucked in by pics others posted in forums or wherever. One feels inadequate when one compares gears with others. Thus one begins to lust for premium gears.


The third is the 'spend, spend and spend to get better picture quality' phase:

This is when one starts to purchase gears in an attempt to improve on one's picture quality. Notice I mention picture quality as opposed to image quality. Here one is likely to subscribe to the motto that better gears = better picture. This is not true unfortunately.


The fourth phase is the 'realization and understanding' phase:

This is when one starts to realize that better gears do not always equal better picture. This is when one realize that skills is ultimately more important than gears and one has to learn more than depend on gears. Some people take a very long time to get to this phase. Some people never get to this phase at all.



Also there are people who buys and DSLR just to take pictures like a PnS so they just snap away without ever wanting to learn. When they perceive that their camera is outdated or obsolete, they go out and buy a new one.

I think new example is better.....

if Michael Schumacher (awesome skill) drive kancil (sux tools) VS alex yoong (normal skill tongue.gif) drive F1 car (great tools). Alex Yoong will win

BUT

if I (sux skill) drive F1 car (great tools) vs Michael Schumacher (awesome skill) drive kancil (sux tools). Who will win? I don't know. Maybe I can't even control the car, so I still lose. Maybe I can control the car but using 10% of it's performance, then maybe I can win.

Hence the outcome of sux person using great tools is = might or might not get better outcome

you have to specify what is better gear.

You guys just keep on blabbering skill more important but you got skill but no light from flash indoor, you take what photo?

People who are already in dSLR for too long forgot that they need the gear. They think they have experience and thus
no need gear. But in the end, they still have gear.

I see you have many gear. Can you sell all those and left with kit lens and without flash?

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Added on January 11, 2011, 10:14 amsux skill can learn. You bought lens and flash and u dun learn is bad example.

I believe people who bought gear will learn.

This post has been edited by gogo2: Jan 11 2011, 10:14 AM

what nasty comments. always have to go against some folks who have different opinions, dont you gogo2?

before you start hurling at me, i have to say i agree with your views. but some posts/dumb questions from you are really not necessary.

This post has been edited by ahtiven: Jan 11 2011, 10:33 AM

See? This is prime example of people who is in 3rd phase and haven't reached the 4th phase. Yes you can have all the gears you can lay your hands on but if you go to a place where they die, die also not allow you to use flash then how? You have flash also no use what. So have to fall back on what you know on how to take a decent pic without relying on the flash isn't it? If you have zero skills and always have to rely on flash then die lor, isn't it?

Gears are essential but gears is not the be all and end all. When people come to realize this fact, then they will tell you that gears is not everything and skills matters. They start to see gears as a tool they utilize to get the picture they want. They will move away from the notion that good gears will guarantee you good pics minus the skills. Gears will not compensate for lack of skills in most situations.


And not all people who buy gears will learn. This will explain those people who buy top end bodies but shoot in AUTO mode.

huh? I tot it was a discussion.. i'm not sure which part is nasty comment.. lol

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Added on January 11, 2011, 10:35 amwell, if flash cannot use, have to buy big aperture lens lor.. what to do... what skill can replace big aperture and flash?

and also, u have to buy tripod also...

in the end, we have to buy buy buy....

This post has been edited by gogo2: Jan 11 2011, 10:35 AM

Anyone can use a big aperture lens and flash to shoot a decent pic. It takes skills to get a decent pic without having to resort to using big aperture lens and flash isn't it?

When all you have is super duper gears and someone take away your super duper gears, you're done! Finished! And time to say sayonara. If you have skills then you simply pick up another cam (does not matter whether it's top range or entry level) and continue shooting and still deliver decent results. That's what matters.

yeah, actually i'll be finish.... i have to resort to put my camera on the bench...

anyway, i no posting here liao... got people butthurt if we start to have debate... lolol

Merajuk pulak... come on... no need to butthurt wan.

*watching from the sidelines*

Pls dont warn me...but I can't stop laughing on this ROFL

Well. my limitation is currently my skill.
and I doubt upgrading my gear by change body into an awesome D3x or even 1Ds Mark III will actually increase my photography performance.

that's the reason I ask you to define your good picture bro

Yeahh.! the is the best I'd say

i like ieR and Sam's post. my photos come out well most often because of flash, so far 3 flash units and gonna be increasing.

btw Sam, how have you been? long time no see oh.

Do you need D3x to learn?
I think I need D3x, 70200, 85mm, 50mm, 200mm, 24mm,11-24 tokina. To start learning.
What do you think??

wouldn't my dad chop my head off?

This post has been edited by aldosoesilo: Jan 11 2011, 11:12 AM

butthurt liao... got warning frm other member... so i need to shuddup liao

i think you're rich

skills and money aside, i need a strong and a very fit right hand too to carry all those big gears.

even rich people have a brain don't they?

would throwing RM 50k++ to start learning. what a brainless human

This post has been edited by aldosoesilo: Jan 11 2011, 11:13 AM

Depends on what you guys wanna shoot. I don't see Nex-3 as a limitation to me and it serves me well in getting pictures I want.

As for gear upgrades, I personally believe it's all about satisfaction. You feel boring and wanna upgrade, go for it. Not really related to skill, I have seen some rich people bought good gears but the pic.............. *ehem*

I have skill and Nex-3 just enough for me. My 2 cents.

Well, if he got the money, he got an edge on the vast amount of choices he can have.

The main question is, does a lot of choices make you feel happier or otherwise, more stressful, because there are so many choices, that you are so confused, which lens for what kind of
photography. Sometimes, the more gears you have, the more temptation and the harder you want to make a decision.

Let's say a guy who only carry a 50mm all day long, and another guy who shoot with 3 lenses - UWA, Prime and Tele. Probably both have an equal satisfaction, because guy A would have tried to think "out of the box" to explore some creative side of photography that he has never tried before, and simplicity made him a happier person. Or otherwise guy B would have feeling so stressful with his shooting because there are so many lenses to choose from, and because lacking of understanding on his shooting style, being indecisive of the lens to choose, or he would feel happy, because he has the freedom to choose whatever style he feels best at that point of time.

This post has been edited by geekster129: Jan 11 2011, 11:20 AM

having those many lens will it affect the quality of 'good picture'?
well. define it 1st I guess.

how about creating a poll "Define good picture"

yeah, I agree is brainless. To have great photography, we just need dSLR body but necessity
lens and flash. Then you're good to good....

necessity stuff is something people call gear here... I believe people will label it as upgrade or
gear if its not body + kitlens..

but to me, body+kitlens itself is not enough...

we need range of lens and flashes...

This one is an age old question... tried asking this before but no conclusive answer.

Which is right.. since it means different things to different people.

beauty is in the eyes of the beholders...

that's why we're still debating here...lol

Or rather... lets ask this question... if you're going on a trip and limited to only a single body+len.

What would you bring?

Edit:
I post about this countless time di... unlike most folks.. I don't have the luxury of bringing a whole arsenal of lens on my trips. What I've learned is to make do with what's mounted on the camera.


This post has been edited by sniper on the roof: Jan 11 2011, 11:28 AM

If you were to ask me what a good picture, all I can say is, you just can't please everyone. 6 out of 10 might agree that is a good picture. The other 4 may say the picture is rubbish!

Everyone has different taste.

Just like when you think that the girl looked pretty, but your friend may think that you have a bad taste. Something like that.

This post has been edited by geekster129: Jan 11 2011, 11:29 AM

trip is different. Trip is memory. Just take only. Creativity can stay behind. I don't think i'll take bokeh pics when I stand
in front of Taipei 101... lol..

to answer ur question, i'll probably just bring my m43 with pancake.

that's the reason this thread leads us to a a very subjective opinion
Brutal-ism of subjective opinion I'd say.

Example.
For those who understand art.
The picture bellow is a very meaningful picture

Archival Replicas - Highest quality reproductions possible, available in a variety of sizes.
taken by Ansel Adams.

where I'd say entry level dslr + kitty lens will be able to do that.
a lot of people using GPS to track the leaf and exactly capture it as what ansel adam did in 40s
but none of them match him.

I'd say.
Upgrading gear (change body + change lens + having flashes) will make you a good photographer.
w/o doubt.

but adding a little spice of emotion in every of your photo captured. is totally another thing.

Will you be able to capture the leaf as good as Ansel Adams?
it's another question to answer

This post has been edited by aldosoesilo: Jan 11 2011, 11:43 AM

wah how you guys can debate until like this. in some ways not healthy la this kind of debate. it will never end.

I am still on my not-so-discrete way on taking pictures (with big annoying flash) at restaurants lol.

rarely go down KL these days though

PS: still pixel peep and hate noise although when resize most of the time they are negligible but well...

brutal-ism of personal opinion