Hello fellow WoW-ers.

With the Blizzard implementation of shared lockout and equivalent loot for 10 and 25 man raid in Catacalysm, I noticed a lot of big ICC 25man guilds are having issues with Catacalysm. In WotLK, guild tends to push for 25man for better loot, but with Catacalysm, it seems pointless to actually do 25man. With a good 10man, you do not have to worry about 25 player awareness, connection, etc.. Easier to manage 10 instead of 25. Does 1-2 additional loot worth the effort?

From my observation of my current guild, and been playing since day 1, plus have been in a lot of strong Asian/Aussie guild, I like to share some insights on what I am currently seeing in this 25man WotLK pre-Cata guild in post Catacalysm.

Shared lock out killer.
Just imagine you were in a guild with 30 guildies. Let say 23 are core and the rest are casual in and out. In WotLK, you can actually push for 25man raid + 10man raid. Even if you miss a 25man raid, you are still good for 10man. As guild leader, you maybe try 25man on Wednesday with a complete 25man competent raiders. However, on Thursday, the casuals can't make it. So, basically, you are short on 25man raid. You could split it up, but then, 3 of your core raiders got screwed. Other factors that may contribute to not able to form 25man raid are network issues, extremely undergeared, etc.. So, by splitting up, if the GMs are competent enough, having a good rotation system may keep everyone happy, which brings me to my next point...

Groupie.
Oh god, where to begin. I've been in tons of awesome guild that in the end crumbled to this. All raid leaders gotta watch this especially in Catacalysm. Relating back to WotLK, with a 25man team, almost everyone feels like a team (assuming proper rotation is in place etc). However, again, as my point previously, in Cata, you tend to do more 10man. If you do not have a good rotation system between the 10man group, you going head on into trouble. Imagine again, a 30+ man guild. 23 core and the rest are casual. So, the ideal maybe 2 groups, what about a third? If you do not have a proper rotation system, 2 things will happen.

1) Those in the 3rd+ group will not get enough raid time due to on and off from the casuals or left with undergeared guildies and probably ended up quiting WoW or gquit.
2) 2 groups in 1 guild scenario. You do not mix the rotation, everyone has their own 10man group, so, what's the purpose of not having your own guild?

This is what I am currently seeing in my guild, groupies are forming, good raiders with not enough raid time. A few have quit, I probably be next in line.

Well those are my insights/views on the matter. I've seen some good guild still manage to keep up the good 25man raid like Lithany of Fury of Thaurissan.

So, what are your views on this? and maybe as a GM, how do you handle your guild?

Adios.

Under normal circumstances, I'd avoid large and overly popular end-game raiding guilds.
Why? Too much competition for raid slots (too much benching), too much drama (most of them are underlying, you won't see them until they rear their ugly head), and the environment just isn't as conducive as those you would find in smaller casual guilds.

Word of advice for a GM: Keep your guild small and your members happy.

agreed. i too come from a huge reputable guild in jubei... once... too much drama... now i just play with my own 10 men, all real life friends and family members

well, there's still drama in small guilds

like the time i attempted to ninja a heal trinket, or the time i tried ninja a 1 hand dps sword, or the time i tried ninja some heal mail...

in the end i had them returned...

If your guild is 25man oriented than stick with 25man. No big deal actually.

10 and 25 has its pros and cons. Certain encounters would favor 10man due to more space for spreading out. But usually based on my own opinion the benefit of class stacking in 25man would be beneficial for end game encounters compared to 10man.

Nevertheless if your a casual guild, stick with 10man. This is where we are heading... from 40man to 25 to 10. Blizzards strategy to cater for the huge casual crowd is a huge cashcow that they cant deny themselves from.

This post has been edited by geno: Jan 7 2011, 04:22 PM

Were you in Vanilla when cutting edge content had to be 40mans?

Ray123 was in a guild which managed two 40man raids in Vanilla.

I was actually. But the good old days i like to refer to give no options but to go 40 thus why guilds are big. Nowadays, the options given do not force the need of a 25 and as I explained earlier, same loot for 10vs25, the line to have 25s just getting less and less... thus the need of big guild.

25m give 90VP instead of 70VP and more loot...
for guilds which are acustommed to 25m raiding, there's no difference...
drama would occur in both 10m or 25m depending on the members and how the leaders/ officers handle it...
no different...
btw u can do both 25m and 10m as long as u dun overprogress (except BH)...

I got to agree with you. But, I think it's really up to guild leader mentallity. Having a 25 pre Cata and suddenly gone to 10man in Cata probably ain't a good idea in a guild that have 25man to do runs.

Gonna share you something happened in my guild recently. We had a group running 25man, with undergeared and network issue people... and while this is going on, there's a 10man group that's considered geared and having good connection running as well. Basically, if those 10 people are not in the 25man group, they won't do 25... a.k.a. groupie symptom. In our pre-Cata raids, usually, when people disconnect or having issues in 25man, they get replaced with those not having issues. Fair I belive since it won't stop the guild progress.

However, post Cata, here where it is funny, guild leader, imo, should ask those 10 to break group and join/replace those undergeared and having connection issue but he himself is already in another 10man group, decided to call it quits until "further" connection issue is resolve and focus on 10man. So, instead of absorbing those 10 in or breaking the groupie mentallity, the leader choose to ignore that.

Now, thinking about it, the groupie mentallity is already a core factor in the guild and already rooted in, both in the mind of the officers, and in turn, the guildies themselves.

I don't think people are in the guild because of the teamwork anymore right now but probably due to the high level/perks achieved by all working together. It's a bit ironic.

That means you want the 10 man core to carry the balance 15 ppl? A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Dont forget that.

Go on a merit system, if u fail/dc bench them or make them pay gold for each mistake. The gold earned can be for guild repairs or crafting/buying boe's for Tanks and Healers.

If u pressure the 10man to split up especially if they are good friends, u wont see them remaining there for long.

This post has been edited by geno: Jan 8 2011, 10:45 AM

now days people make guilds with 999 members only to gain gold benefits, they have about 200-300g deposited in gbank every hour or 2, so most guilds are big as hell but only run a 10m raid because the gmaster wants to eat free gold form members.

Hahahaha. Was about to say that.

wow people always compared vanilla i have no idea. oh yeah reminds me of the garr fight. 30 mins assigning targets and sapphiron too you know where cc'ers have to stare at their target in order not to cc others targets and turn into a wipefest.

Hahaha, good one soitsuagain. Remembered those good old days. Anyways, I was hoping to give my guild a chance but today i gquit coz they selling "BoE" items to guildies hahaha. Funny, their repair bills come from guildies and they pull that kinda crap... i was going, you stupid officer rofl. Also talks of few people gonna leave also ongoing too. Well, don't say that I didn't warn them. Bye bye 25man <Lanun>, may ur greed be your downfall hehehe

Good Lord.. More qq ing.

I'm the GM of <Lanun>, It's embarrassing to actually need to come forward in public forum to defend guild integrity. /sigh


At 50% of Market Price & these are on BoE that drops in ANOTHER raid grp. U can even get them for FREE if u're a major contributor (guild farmers/crafters/exceptional player), which he was actually, until he removed himself from the post with the excuse of 'don't want that responsibility anymore'. Good luck finding guild that gives free BoE Epics to everyone (BoE Blues, enchants, gems are FREE though). Maybe you should just form one.


The 5% extra money perks really not that much. The gold we have in our gbank atm comes from fund raising activities & planning that has been put up since the guild was formed. Since it took a lot of administrative work to even put that together, it's only fair that the GM has the privilege to choose which Guild Ranks are entitled to guild repair (he was privileged until he removed himself from the position). We didn't even practice Guild Repair before this, it's just that now with the Guild Repair achievement in place, this option were being introduce. Making guild repair available to everyone would bankrupt the guild in 1 week.


Good luck with your next guild Mousecat, letme know if u need me to write a recommendation letter to your new GM.

Regards

This post has been edited by ArmRule: Jan 11 2011, 06:58 PM

Ok. I guess it has become personal for you hehehe.

Seriously, guild integrity? I have no real time to argue with you, it's your guild. If anyone reading this forum doesn't believe me, just create a character on Thaurissan and ask any guildies pre/post Cata on my contribution to the guild, my ethics, my focus for guild betterment, etc.. If they say I am what the Guild Leader claim, so be it but i'm pretty sure you get a different view, don't let my rant here or the Guild Leader qq judge me. Let them speak for themselve.

Your recommendation? Who do you think you are that other guilds need YOUR RECOMMENDATION? hehehehehe. I don't work FOR you. I work WITH you for the guild.

Look, I've been in and out a few awesome guild in my experience in WoW. None have I left with bad ties since honestly, these awesome guild are awesome coz of great leadership, like most good guild have. Your guild is the first.

Again, if you guys want a recommendation, seriously, ask any players that been running instance with me, or again, even Lanun guildies themselve. Heck, weird isn't it when your guildies speak highly of me and you're the only one saying otherwise... hmm.. weird.

Anyways, I think this is already off topic. Seriously, good luck with the guild. Since this thread not a topic for "How Lanun Guild Leader is a tard", I probably start a new one later for personal attack session. Btw, good move banning me from Lanun Facebook for commenting on reason I left guild... hehehe.

This post has been edited by manoque: Jan 10 2011, 01:57 PM

Try http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/1182658/

Bigger audience

Have a nice day.

Sorry, I'll check when I am at home. My company blocks retarded troll post.

I think the Cata raiding system is good for small guilds like mine. My guild used to have 10-15 good players, and the rest were so-so. We could do regular 25man, but no way we could carry the rest and pull of hard modes. Since ICC, I've only been doing 10man. 25 man is too much of a hassle with loot distribution, attendence, class composition, etc etc etc. Then again, I'm not a top-tier hardcore raider.

yup this is good for smaller guilds who always have short manpower...
while the bigger guilds would have the bigger rosters for consistent 25m raids...

OT: about the whole guild drama fiesta...
i think that guild selling BoE at 50% to raiders is fine...
after all u would loot it either by some looting system which would cost u a longer wait for loots...
money in the game can be farmed with ease, there is no welfare epics imho...
i always believe that it is the raider's responsibility to farm the materials for consumables in raid (personal food, flasks, potions and repairs) as well as the needed optimizer (prof etc)...
the guild is just a mean for u to get to the loots and whatever the guild earned could be used to fund the raid food, raid flask (new) and the vent (it aint cheap)...

p.s: i would rather pay gold for loot rather than spend my EP just for loot (if the guild is using EPGP)...

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Jan 10 2011, 02:52 PM