Hi,

I'll answer 1) and 2) together:

As a vendor, you have three options:
1) Appoint a solicitor to act on your behalf, whereby the solicitor will charge FULL SCALED FEES and will peruse the draft S&P for you and advise you accordingly. Your solicitor will assisting you in discharging the charge, and obtain the unencumbered original title from the bank for onward transmission to the purchaser's financier's solicitor (let's assume the purchaser will be taking a loan). They will also assist you by filling up the CKHT1A (and CKHT3) and proceed to file same at LHDN. Your solicitor will also keep check as to the completion date and would exert some pressure on the purchaser's solicitors to complete the S&P within the stipulated time and pay up the late penalty interest, if applicable.

2) Act totally in person. This means that you would have to run around to your financier, apply for a redemption statement, collect it, prepare a discharge of charge, get the cheque for the redemption sum from the purchaser's financier, get your financier to execute the discharge of charge, serve it to the purchaser's financier, fill up the CKHT1A and CKHT3 and file it yourself at LHDN.

3) Authorise the purchaser's solicitor to act on you behalf ONLY in respect of assisting you in discharging the charge, and obtain the unencumbered original title from the bank for onward transmission to the purchaser's financier's solicitor (let's assume the purchaser will be taking a loan). They will also assist you by filling up the CKHT1A (and CKHT3) and proceed to file same at LHDN. You will not be charged full scaled fees, but the fees for Discharge of Charge : RM300 and CKHT 1A: RM300 are fixed and is normally charged in this kind of situations.
NOTE: There is no conflict of interest here as the solicitor is merely ASSISTING you to redeem the property and discharge the charge. All this has nothing to do with the purchaser


Your current position would be no (3).

Benefits: You save on solicitor's full scaled fees. You only pay a minimal amount for discharge of charge, CKHT 1A and disbursements.

Cons: You must read and understand the S&P yourself, do not expect any preferential treatment from the solicitors as they are acting for the purchaser and thus, you would have no avenue should there be any delays, etc. In fact, you may not even be updated very often as to the progress as the solicitor is not obliged to CC any correspondence to you. In the event of any late penalty interest, you would have to do the calculation and claim for it yourself from the purchaser's solicitors.

The clause "the seller chose not to be represented by a lawyer" means that you are deemed to be unrepresented.

With regard to the draft note of charges, there are a few 'unnecessary charges' in my opinion:
Statutory Declaration: RM100
* What SD is this? That you're not a bankrupt? Tell them that you will bring it to a Commissioner for Oaths yourself to be affirmed - RM8 only.

Change of Ownership (DBKL): RM100
Change of Ownership (mgmt office) : RM100
* This is ridiculous. All this can be done on your own accord and will not take more than a few hours of your time, especially M'Ment Office, which is located on the same premises (am assuming this is a condo/apartment). Better still, insist on this clause in the agreement:

NOTIFICATION OF CHANGE OF OWNERSHIP
The parties hereto hereby agree that the Purchaser shall immediately upon completion of this Sale and Purchase notify and file with the local council and such other relevant authorities or utility service providers regarding the change of ownership of the said Property. The parties hereby agree that it is neither the duty of the Purchaser’s Solicitors nor the Vendor to attend to any of the foregoing matters.

Stamping Fee for Discharge of Charge: RM10
*justified
Discharge of Charge & Noting of PA: RM100
*justified
Affiming & Stamping Fee for Statutory Declaration: RM30
*justified, although it should be roughly RM18.00, if you do it yourself

Land Search: RM60
This should be borne by the purchaser, not you! Why on earth do you need to do a land search? This is obviously a case of passing the buck to you to save the purchaser some money.
OA Search: RM50
This should only cost RM12

Transport charges: RM100
* justified
Miscellaneous: RM50
* justified

FINAL ADVICE: The fees for discharge of charge [RM300] and Filing CKHT1A [RM300] is fixed and is proper. However, there are several unnecessary charges which ought not be borne by you. Think twice and weigh the pros and cons before making a final choice. You may want to get a second quote from another lawyer.

This post has been edited by dariofoo: Nov 9 2010, 04:06 PM

Hi Dariofoo,

many many thanks! really appreciate it!! If i understand correctly, the reasonable cost would be around RM1000 instead of RM1345 rite?

Correct me if im wrong, by FULL SCALED FEES, it means that on top of the costs quoted i would have to pay 1K plus bcoz i sold me house for 150K, then the total cost would be more than 2K, rite?

Thanks for the advise, i would get the clause on Notification of Change of Ownership that you suggested to be inserted into the S&P, but wud you explain to me the clause in layman term and its implications, pls? many thanks!

This post has been edited by dreamadream: Nov 9 2010, 11:02 PM

It is a bit expensive for your cases. Check with your lawyer is there any "change of name".

RM800 to RM900 should be reasonable bill. Make it RM1K so that the law firm feel nicer to do your cases.

If would be better use the same lawyer with the purchaser since a small case.

Correct if I am wrong.

Your full scaled fees would be RM1,300 [1% of RM130K] as prescribed by the Solicitors' Remuneration Order 2005

The clause is very simple - the purchaser has the duty to apply on his own effort and cost any change of ownership with TNB, Syabas, Indah Water, DBKL, M'ment Office, etc etc etc. Neither you nor his lawyer has the duty to do it. If his lawyer wants to amend it, let him have the duty imposed on the firm, but NOT YOU. As the vendor, you are not responsible for all of this. Don't even pay a single cent for it.

All the best

---

Added on November 9, 2010, 11:07 pmThere is no such thing as a small case or a big case. Every S&P is important irregardless of the cost of the property.

Can you promise that a "small case" will not have any problems? Some people would not mind spending money on legal fees just to have that peace of mind and security, while some just think of it very lightly and just use a common solicitor, to save money.

If all goes well, then it is money well saved. But when cracks appear? When there is a delay? Then the unrepresented vendor would have to do all the running around himself to solve the problem. He will be like this ->

At the end of the day, it is up to the individual to decide for themselves, what is the best for them. We can only give them the pros and cons of each choice, in order for them to make an informed decision.

This post has been edited by dariofoo: Nov 9 2010, 11:09 PM

Hi many thanks!

Sorry the prop value is RM150K instead of 130K, so that means if i opt to appoint my own lawyer, my total cost will be RM1500+RM1345 = RM2845? or i only pay RM1500？

Pls correct me if i'm wrong, does it mean that if the purchaser fails to fulfill his obligations, i would hv to perform all necessary for e.g to remove caveats (if any) lodged on my own???? Can i then appoint a lawyer to do it??

There's legal fees:
Scaled fees for perusing S&P - RM1,500
Discharge of Charge - RM300
CKHT 1A - RM300
5% service tax

Then you get the total..

...and there's disbursements:
* as discussed above. It would come to about RM900-1000, I think. Different firms have different billings.

If the PURCHASER fails to perform any of his obligations, and agreement is subsequently aborted, then PURCHASER'S SOLICITORS has to do all the work - your job is just to count ways to spend the 10% which you have just forfeited

You're the vendor so you don't need to lodge any caveats. What has to be done by you as the vendor has already been explained in detail in situation (1) above in my first reply to you. Please look at it again.

Honestly, to act on your own is 'pennywise, poundfoolish' - either authorise purchaser's solicitor as common solicitor or appoint your own solicitor.

This post has been edited by dariofoo: Nov 10 2010, 12:06 AM

Hi Dariofoo,

many many many thanks!!!!! really appreciate your help!!!
The lawyer has sent me the 1st draft of SNP today (so efficient) and i managed to get some charges off the bill.
will try to look at the SNP and see how it goes
thanks again !!!!!!!

No problem. Can you share with all of us here what are the charges which you manage to get off the bill as you said?

Good luck perusing the S&P on your own. I must let you know in advance to not request for us to read the draft and check if it is ok for you to sign it. It is your own choice not to engage a solicitor to act on your behalf, so you must take the responsibility to peruse and understand it on your own.

Hope you understand the situation.

If we start checking and perusing S&Ps here for you, lawyers will be out of business in no time!

Good luck

Dear Sifu,

just recently pay a booking fee of my very 1st own house.

i went to the dev solicitors office and have the SPA back to my own view.
in the end got some doubts on it, hope sifu here can help help t clarify it. many thanks in advance 1st.

heres some basic details:

- is a 1.5 storey townhouse, which is completed 3 years ago, still under master title with the dev.

- according to the agent from the dev, they already submitted to apply from master to strata and approx issuance will be 2 years after.

- the solicitor are also act upon the bank loan which i currently apply.

my question as follow: (many thanks to sifu in advance for answering it)

1. is it normal that dev to charge us for the transfering of the strata title to my individual title after 2 years when they have the strata,
and if its normal, approximately how much they will charge on the SPA price of rm168500?

as the agreement stated like this.

- Upon the issuance of strata title to the said parcel and subject to the payment of the purchase price by the purchaser to the vendor in accordance with clasue 4 (which is manner of payment) and the observer of all the terms and condition herein provided, the vendor shall, within 21 days , execute a valid registrable MOT of the said parcel to the purchaser.



many many thanks.
if the question are anser, i deeply appologies, coz im still viewing back right now.

This post has been edited by maxwongsauwei: Nov 11 2010, 02:07 PM

Dario, great advice you are providing to the people in this thread.

Pertaining to the above matter again, would just like to know about the standard cost factors. How much would it cost :-

a) to file an Originating Summons - OS (Saman Pemula) in the High Court - payment to the Court ?

b) if the Senior Assistant Registrar (SAR) is later required to do the Dev's work, how much do we need to pay the SAR ?

c) on the lawyer fees involved : filing the OS, obtaining the order, disbursements, any others ?

d) on other things that I may have missed, eg exchanging of affidavits ?


Secondly, based on this earlier statement : Who can say for sure whether the developer's panel solicitors will actually (as you say) "less likely to entertain or act on your behalf if there is any dispute in the future"?

I am aware that there is actually a legal and proper way to discharge the current lawyer and find another one if the client feels the current lawyer is not good enough - ie not able to discharge his duties well, or being caught in a situation of conflict-of-interest, perhaps because rpresenting the opoenent too.

How do we go about discharging the current lawyer ? Is there a possibility that the current lawyer may not want to be discharged and will just hold-on to a case that he does not want to perform well for ?

What are the costs involved in discharging a lawyer ?

And finally, do we need to inform the Bar Council of this discharge too ?


Thanks again, Dario.

Hi Max,

Thanks for dropping by.

You really don't need to worry about anything. The dev has the duty to apply and bear the cost of subdividing the master title into individual strata titles. The term "subject to the payment of the purchase price by the purchaser to the vendor" only refers to progressive payment of the purchase price and nothing more. Your bank will do the needful to release the money as and when work is done and the claim is made.

Your current solicitor will bill you some disbfor registering the MOT and remember that you would also need to pay stamp duty on the MOT. That's about all.

I think you should be happy that you'll be getting your individual title. Go do a dance like this ->

Hope the above helps. Cheers.

---

Added on November 12, 2010, 11:43 amPertaining to the above matter again, would just like to know about the standard cost factors. How much would it cost :-

a) to file an Originating Summons - OS (Saman Pemula) in the High Court - payment to the Court ?
RM80 for OS, RM8 for affidavit-in-support

b) if the Senior Assistant Registrar (SAR) is later required to do the Dev's work, how much do we need to pay the SAR ?
No fees involved. The Court order will direct the SAR to execute it if the Dev fail to do so within a certain number of days.

c) on the lawyer fees involved : filing the OS, obtaining the order, disbursements, any others ?
Lawyers fees for litigation matters is not fixed and not scaled. There would be legal fees as well as disbursements. Breakdown as to disbursements differ from law firm to law firm.

d) on other things that I may have missed, eg exchanging of affidavits ?
Yes in an OS application there would be exchange of affidavits. There would be no calling of witnesses, unless one of the parties puts in an application to cross-examine the deponent of an affidavit, but that is a rare situation.

Secondly, based on this earlier statement : Who can say for sure whether the developer's panel solicitors will actually (as you say) "less likely to entertain or act on your behalf if there is any dispute in the future"?

I am aware that there is actually a legal and proper way to discharge the current lawyer and find another one if the client feels the current lawyer is not good enough - ie not able to discharge his duties well, or being caught in a situation of conflict-of-interest, perhaps because rpresenting the opoenent too.
If you want to appoint a solicitor to sue the developer for penalty due to late delivery of vac possession, you need not discharge your S&P lawyer. Suing is a diff matter altogether from the procedure in the S&P, and you can appoint a new solicitor without any hassle.

How do we go about discharging the current lawyer ? Is there a possibility that the current lawyer may not want to be discharged and will just hold-on to a case that he does not want to perform well for ?
Your new solicitor has to write to the current lawyer asking if the latter has any objections to the former taking over conduct of the matter. It is a rule of courtesy. No solicitor can refuse to be discharged. A client has the ultimate choice as to the solicitor of his choice. Even in the event where there are outstanding fees, the solicitor cannot hold on to the file when there is another solicitor waiting to take over the matter, and that solicitor has given notice in writing to the previous solicitor of his intent to do so.

The previous solicitor has to release the file, subject to an undertaking by the new solicitor that the latter will hold a sum as a lien, and thereafter remit that sum to the previous solicitor as outstanding fees.

Example: Outstanding fees: RM10,000.00. New solicitor takes over conduct, wins the case and obtains judgment for RM50,000.00. The new solicitor must set aside RM10,000 a lien and remit that sum to the previous solicitor as outstanding fees.

What are the costs involved in discharging a lawyer ?
There are no fees. It's just settlement of outstanding fees to the previous lawyer, or having an undertaking by the new solicitor to hold a lien.

And finally, do we need to inform the Bar Council of this discharge too ?
No need to inform the Bar Council, but for civil litigation cases, you would have to file what is called a Notice of Change of Solicitors - filing fees RM10

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Added on November 12, 2010, 11:48 amGood to see you back, Hansel. Cheers.

This post has been edited by dariofoo: Nov 12 2010, 11:48 AM

Dear Sifu,

i own one rubber land inherit from parent less then a year

have a buyer want to buy at cost rm400k, my question are

1, who should keep the 10% deposit, me or the lawyer?

2, how much legal fee should i pay?

3, since less then a year of owning the land, how much the RPGT charge
?

4, i'm first time selling a land, any others matter i need to look into it?

appreciate Sifu can answer my question.

Dario,... as per your usual great and detailed reply,... thank you and brilliant words there,... and am glad to be back too,....

Hmm,.. you mentioned lawyer fees for litigation is not fixed and not scaled. Can you kindly,... perhaps provide a ballpark from a similar case whereby it only involves specific performance matters,.... how much would the lawyer charge ?

Disbursements - I think that would be a standard of RM350.00, right ?

1, who should keep the 10% deposit, me or the lawyer?
The 10% deposit is for you to keep and must be paid to you upon signing the S&P.
2, how much legal fee should i pay?
If i'm not mistaken, you would have the original title free from any encumbrances. In that case, you don't need to discharge any charge over the land. So you can act in person.

The only thing you need to prepare is a letter of undertaking by you to refund the balance purchase price to the purchaser in the event the MOT cannot be registered for any reason whatsoever. You can get a sample copy from the purchaser's solicitor, or if they are nice enough (well, they should be) they can just prepare it for you.

The other thing is to pass the original title to the purchaser's solicitor once the purchaser's financier's solicitor gives you an undertaking that they will release the loan sum to make up the balance purchase price to you OR, if the loan sum is not 90%, a confirmation that the differential sum has been deposited with the purchaser's solicitors as stakeholder.

You would also have to file a CKHT1A and CKHT3 form. This, you can do on your own, or you can ask the purchaser's solicitor to assist you. The legal fees for this will cost RM300, plus a bit of disbursements, maybe RM50.

Other than that, there's nothing much to do on your side.

3, since less then a year of owning the land, how much the RPGT charge ?
It's 5% of your nett gain. For a detailed explanation and example, go here:http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/1612349/+20


4, i'm first time selling a land, any others matter i need to look into it?
Make sure that you pay your quit rent as you would need to forward the receipt to the purchaser's solicitors. Nothing much other than that. Remember that you are still the owner of the property, so if it is an active rubber estate, you can still tap rubber until the completion date of the property.

---

Added on November 12, 2010, 3:06 pm[quote=Hansel,Nov 12 2010, 02:48 PM]
Dario,... as per your usual great and detailed reply,... thank you and brilliant words there,... and am glad to be back too,....

Hmm,.. you mentioned lawyer fees for litigation is not fixed and not scaled. Can you kindly,... perhaps provide a ballpark from a similar case whereby it only involves specific performance matters,.... how much would the lawyer charge ?

Even ballparks differs in shape and size, my friend.

I like to tell people that choosing a litigation lawyer is like going to a car showroom - if you have a budget for a Proton, you don't step into a Honda showroom. If you have a budget for a Toyota, don't even dream of stepping into an Audi showroom. So your selection of lawyer would greatly depend on your budget, and not the legal fees that the lawyer will charge.

Don't make the common mistake - big firms may not necessarily be good, and small firms may not necessarily be bad.

Most lawyers would charge according to the complexity of the case, total sum of the claim involved, and also, according to the expertise of the lawyer involved.

It's really a touchy question which is difficult to answer, simply because, paying more doesn't mean you're getting better service! But paying very low also is dangerous, as the lawyer may just be taking up the file to 'cari makan'

But remember, if it's too low, then it's too good to be true. And TOO good to be NOT good in the end! Haha

Ask for recommendations from family and friends. Surely someone can recommend a good litigation lawyer!

Good luckDisbursements - I think that would be a standard of RM350.00, right ?

There's Court filing fees, service of documents, postage, papers, stationery, courier, telephone, facsimile, travelling to Court and other expenses incurred. I don't think RM350 cuts it. Surely more.

Some lawyers charge appearance fees for each time they appear in Court. Some don't. Depends la.

This post has been edited by dariofoo: Nov 12 2010, 03:06 PM

Thank you very much! Dariofoo.

---

Added on November 12, 2010, 4:57 pmBy the way, you can calculate your legal fees here:
http://www.elawyer.com.my/legal_calculator_info.php

This post has been edited by dariofoo: Nov 12 2010, 04:57 PM

Hi Sifu,

Question on Strata title.

This is a freehold property.
Developer inform that the strata title is ready. Lawyer has prepared the documentation and submitted it to land office.
How long will the land office take to issue the strata title?

Thanks

Referring to this questions, I have some questions to further understand this process as I am in the midst of planning to purchase a new unit from the developer whom will be bearing the cost of the legal fee. I'm also trying to understand the whole process in order to minimise my risk and also for planning of budgetting.

1) Could someone let me know the process of legallity involved when purchasing the unit? (ie : step 1 - pay deposit to developer, step 2 - sign S&P, getting of bank loan and etc).

2) Developer will be bear the cost of SpA fees? In this case, does it mean the legal fees between me and the developer or the entire complete transaction(me/developer and bank)?

3) Would there be any legal cost involved in the loan agreement? Do I have to engage my own lawyer (or it's covered by the developer since they

Please kindly advice on the whole process and do really appreciate it.



ps: pls don't be angry if it has duplicated questions.

Reply to icecoolman:1) Could someone let me know the process of legallity involved when purchasing the unit? (ie : step 1 - pay deposit to developer, step 2 - sign S&P, getting of bank loan and etc).
Can you be more specific? Freehold or leasehold? Landed or high-rise?

2) Developer will be bear the cost of SpA fees? In this case, does it mean the legal fees between me and the developer or the entire complete transaction(me/developer and bank)?
You would need to check with the developer on this,but MOST, if not all of the latest developments launched, the developer would market it as free legal fees. In truth, of course, the legal costs would've been incorporated in the purchase price itself. If the legal fees are absorbed by the developer, then they would insist that you use of their panel firm of solicitors.
With regard to the legal fees for your loan documentation, you would also need to check this with the developer. They may offer to absorb the legal fees upon the condition that you obtain your loan from one of their panel banks AND appoint their panel firm of solicitors.

3) Would there be any legal cost involved in the loan agreement? Do I have to engage my own lawyer (or it's covered by the developer since they

Yes there are legal fees involved, unless it is absorbed by the developer, as explained in the answer to question (2) above. If you insist on taking your own solicitor, the developer would most likely decline to pay for the legal fees involved. Same rule would apply when you elect to appoint your own solicitor for the S&P.

With regard to the pros and cons of using a developer's panel firm of solicitors - please go through the earlier posts and replies in this thread. If you have any enquiries, do ask.

Please kindly advice on the whole process and do really appreciate it.
ps: pls don't be angry if it has duplicated questions.
No problem. Cheers.

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Added on November 14, 2010, 2:27 amHey there,

This is a really tough question. I wish I had a crystal ball to help you out on this one, but I don't.

Some land offices are efficient, some are not. Some have hardworking staff, and some don't. There's a lot of factors involved, to be honest.

But as long as the documents have been presentation for registration, it should be alright. It is already on record that the documents have been presented, but not registered. So, to be honest, I wouldn't be so worried.

If you're still curious, perhaps you can ask you lawyer to give you a timeframe. Perhaps he has dealt with that particular land office for other transactions. He would perhaps be in a better position to answer your query for the time being.

Come back here with his answer and share it with us.

Cheers.

This post has been edited by dariofoo: Nov 14 2010, 02:27 AM

can someone advise for me this legal fee?
is it reasonable? the sub-sale house is rm140k

Thanks in advance

S&P agreement = 1400
letter of declaration = 100
5% Gov tax = 75
=================
sub total = 1575


disbursements
stamp duty on S&P agreement = 40
letter waiver = 10
stamp duty on transfer = 900
MOT registration fee on transfer (2 titles) = 100
title and caveat search = 60
printing of documents = 70
postage/courier/telephone/other expenses = 50
incidentals = 100
================================
sub total = 1330

TOTAL = 1575 + 1330 = 2905

This post has been edited by fazlittc: Nov 14 2010, 03:00 AM