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Group LYN Buddhism Retreat - SERIOUS TALK, No trolling please

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soul2soul
post Aug 15 2010, 09:16 AM

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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Aug 15 2010, 09:07 AM)
soul2soul,

Some people cannot stand the idea that Buddhists are not BUSYBODIES like everyone else.  We DO NOT CARE what religion that people believe.  They cannot stand religious tolerance.

WE represent another option.  Aka, everyone do not have to convert into religion X in order for the world to be at peace and fine.

The PROBLEM is if we are CORRECT, the WHOLE BS about you must be religion X in order to be MORAL falls apart.

Dreamer
*
Dreamer,

They are just not comfortable with their own belief/disbelief, that's all.
soul2soul
post Aug 15 2010, 09:51 AM

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QUOTE(gogo2 @ Aug 15 2010, 12:29 AM)
For me, All about Religion always like Believers (abrahamic religion vs the rest of the world).

While this thread is about Buddhism vs Atheist...

Since Buddhism always like to say they are philosophical but actually they are not if they delve
deeper. This probably the most misleading thing about Buddhism. Lured you in by promising the
most logical religion ever existed.But when you're in and delve deeper, the same supernatural
thing like Christian exist.

At least, Christian are totally honest about it. THey said we're supernatural. Need faith to understand.
But Buddhism instead tell us, hey, no supernatural. All philosophical. Yeah right.
*
maybe we should ask the moderators what direction they prefer this thread to be, a versus thread or buddhist thread.


Added on August 15, 2010, 9:54 am
QUOTE(randyhow @ Aug 14 2010, 09:31 PM)
there's nothing wrong with Buddhism being as a creation of human.. Newton's law too a creation of human, it's not totally accurate but still been using till today..
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I think they have a problem of buddhism being a creation of human but claiming to have the answer to the supernatural world. I still fail to see why they are upset with this.

This post has been edited by soul2soul: Aug 15 2010, 09:54 AM
soul2soul
post Aug 15 2010, 10:23 PM

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On the other hand, there are other schools of thought, for example Theravada which places a lot of emphasis on what the Buddha actually taught, or the type of buddhism that was practiced 2500 years ago when the Buddha himself walked the earth.

For example, Buddha's daily routine from dawn to night, his alms round in the morning where a group of monks would follow him to the town to get food/medicine, and the recorded discourses of him teaching to the people there.


soul2soul
post Aug 17 2010, 10:01 AM

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QUOTE(zstan @ Aug 17 2010, 09:29 AM)
i thought a staff oversees the whole forum? they are the global moderators to begin with.

i'm still curious who moved this thread here in the first place, and why.

no proper explanation was given and one fine day it just popped up in RWI.  hmm.gif
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Just ignore the trolls. It's really the best treatment for them you know.

Anyway, I would recommend a good book on the Buddha's great disciples, not very much known outside the conservative orthodox Theravada teachings.

Buddha has 2 chief disciples and 1 attendant, as it was recorded that all buddhas in the past had, and future buddhas will have too.


1. Venerable Sariputta - Marshal of the Dhamma. Foremost in wisdom (panna) and analytical knowledge. The Buddha had acknowledged that Ven Sariputta also turned the wheel of the Dhamma as the Buddha did. Also known as the Elder in the Sangha. He attained Parinibbana just 3 months before the Buddha did. His last convert was his own mother.

2. Venerable Mahamoganalla - Master of Psychic powers. 2nd chief disciple with mastery in all forms of psychic abilities. Also known as Iddhi-powers. His various feats were recorded in the Sutta, among them subduing the mighty Naga that attacked the Buddha, confronting the Arch-Demon Mara who tried to sicken him, visited the various gods in the heavens to preach the dhamma.

This ability of him proved to be also the cause of envy among many ascetics, who eventually hired some bandits to terminate his life. Ven Mahamoganalla, due to his past kamma of harming his both parents (in very distant past), lost control of his own powers towards the end and had his own bone being broken and bludgeoned to death by the bandits. This serves as a great reminder that psychic powers cannot overcome Kamma.

3. Venerable Ananda - Buddha's cousin, who attended to the Buddha, and had excellent memory. Most of the Suttas were recited by him , and approved by other Arahants at the first buddhist council as being authentic and were words of the buddha , held 100 days after the Buddha passed away.

4. Ven Mahakasappa
5. Ven Anuruddha
soul2soul
post Aug 17 2010, 11:08 AM

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QUOTE(zstan @ Aug 17 2010, 10:52 AM)
was Venerable Mahamoganalla the one who sent food to his mother in hell? didn't realised he died such a horrible death.

my question is, to those bandits who hurt him, will Kamma get back to them too?  hmm.gif
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Ven Mahamoganalla was known to visit many beings in Hells and heavens too. Not sure about the story of sending food to his mother. AFAIK , the beings in hell don't have time to even eat.....

He knew the bandits wanted to kill him but he used his powers to make himself become invisible to them , not to avoid his own death (as arahants don't have fear of death) but to try to help the bandits to avert a terrible kamma they were going to commit (by murdering an arahant).

But towards the end, he lost control of his body when his past kamma interrupted his concentration and was finally revealed to the bandits. So.. he was hacked to death, bones broken to pieces according to the records in the sutta.

The monks later asked the Buddha why Ven Mahamoganally suffered such a terrible death, and the Buddha told them that Ven Mahamoganalla had killed his parents in his past lives, and as a result of that he went to hell and suffered for a very long time, later he emerged as humans and in 7 lifetimes, he was bludgeoned to death. And that kamma also not finished .. until it caused Moganalla to die that way in his last life too.

Of course, for those bandits who killed him, already commit a serious kamma which will definitely land them in Hells after their own death. There are 5 types of heavy evil kamma listed
1. harm buddha
2. kill arahants
3. kill mother
4. kill father
5. cause division in sangha

These kamma will definitely appear at the mind-door of the dying person. That is to say, Hell existence is a 100% certainty for people who committed such crimes. People who commit such crimes also cannot become enlightened in that life, even if they have the ability to do so due to their past cultivation. Such individuals are said to be covered with the veil of evil kamma.

So.. be nice to our parents... got lot of blessings....can go heaven one u know...


Added on August 17, 2010, 11:10 am
QUOTE(Joey-kun @ Aug 17 2010, 10:59 AM)
yes the bandits will get karma back, but Moganalla killed his parents in his previous life by beating them  to death, and not only in that last life of his that he died that way but in many previous lives as well.

That is the nature of Karma.

1. Karma is definite in that virtuous actions lead to happiness and non-virtuous to suffering.
2. Karmic imprints increase; the result is greater than the cause.
3. One will never experience a karmic result one did not create the cause for.
4. Karmic causes created are never lost.

So thats why we be very careful of the actions due to the nature of its reprecussion. It does not exhaust itself when it ripens.
*
agreed 100%... don't play play with kamma.

This post has been edited by soul2soul: Aug 17 2010, 11:10 AM
soul2soul
post Aug 17 2010, 11:51 AM

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QUOTE(eXPeri3nc3 @ Aug 17 2010, 11:17 AM)
So if I get you correctly, good karmic seeds and bad ones (that one acquired throughout their lifetimes) will be in tact from since ages till now and will go on?
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Some kamma are heavier, like committing matricide or patricide (killing parents), so the effect of this kamma may last a few lifetime like in the case of Ven Mahamoganalla.

Even good kamma that propels beings to the heavenly states (gods) will once day finish and they have to drop down to the human state or the evil destinies sooner or later.

Doing lots of good in this life will help us to be happy here and now, have a calm mind at death, and to reappear in good places after this life terminates. It's like putting more good kamma in our pockets, so the probability of striking a good kamma is higher.

This post has been edited by soul2soul: Aug 17 2010, 11:54 AM
soul2soul
post Aug 17 2010, 12:08 PM

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QUOTE(eXPeri3nc3 @ Aug 17 2010, 12:01 PM)
Oh that's new to me. I never knew Gods that ran out of good karmic deeds / seeds will drop down from their state.

Hmm Karmic stuff so wide.
What you said is in conjunction to the definition of impermanence I guess.

But personally the thought that the BAD karmic seeds will not disappear until reborn into Buddhahood kind of scares me to be honest laugh.gif
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The gods have lifeterm one, the higher ones live longer. Once their lifeterm finish (providing they are not killed or die prematurely), their aura recedes, their bodies start to sweat, they garments become dirty, and most of them panic at that stage.

Yea, once their good kamma finish, the gods will re-birth again, and will most likely drop down to the lower worlds if they haven't cultivate any merits there (spend their time partying and enjoy that is).


soul2soul
post Aug 17 2010, 01:55 PM

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QUOTE(eXPeri3nc3 @ Aug 17 2010, 01:10 PM)
In which teaching was this mentioned if I may ask?

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Theravada suttas (tipitaka). In the Sutta Pitaka it was mentioned that Sakka (king of the gods) paid buddha a visit when he got depressed knowing he was going to die soon as a deva. There is also a story of a deva who panic after he saw his female playmates all disappear in front of him (apparently all took rebirth in Avici Hell after their kamma as gods finish).

The Abidhamma portion of the Tipitaka gave the lifespan of each gods, from a few million human years to a hundreds of thousands of Aeons (world cycles).

So the gods are not permanent, so warned by the Buddha.

This post has been edited by soul2soul: Aug 17 2010, 01:55 PM
soul2soul
post Aug 17 2010, 01:59 PM

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QUOTE(eXPeri3nc3 @ Aug 17 2010, 01:56 PM)
Oh I see. I'm more to Mahayana teachings. Thanks for the heads up.
*
I don't think the Mahayana buddhists believe the gods are permanent, do they?
soul2soul
post Aug 17 2010, 02:04 PM

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QUOTE(eXPeri3nc3 @ Aug 17 2010, 02:00 PM)
I haven't come across any that says that it is impermanent. Not implying anything btw.
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No la. I got quite a number of mahayana friends, they all tell me the gods are not permanent. Otherwise why would the Buddha teach the characteristic of existence is "Suffering, Non-self, Impermanent".

Just something to ponder, if existence of gods is permanent.. why strive for Nirvana? smile.gif
soul2soul
post Aug 17 2010, 02:12 PM

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QUOTE(zstan @ Aug 17 2010, 02:04 PM)
the way devas die are quite different.

as a human, the process of natural dying needs to go through a few process.

i.e., birth -> growth->adult->grow old/fall sick then die. and since human age is short, u roughly know when you are about to die. (accidents aside)

for devas, since they are higher beings, they emit a sweet scent. however, when they are about to die, the scent will be replaced with a foul smell. every other devas will start to isolate you and you will be all alone. and add the extremely long life span, you don't really know when your time is up, hence you won't pay much attention to gathering more good merits, thus dropping into the lower realms.

technically, you won't be prepared psychologically that you are about to die. and devas dun die like humans, can tahan until the last breath. when they die, they just disappear.

correct me if i am wrong. biggrin.gif
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Correct. You sound quite knowledgable!

For devas that undergo spontaneous rebirth, males appear instantly as 21 year old (all handsome) and females at 16 years old (all beautiful). It depends on Karma too. If you are born inside a castle or residence of their rulers , you get to become their 'sons' or 'daughters' , but if you are born outside of their castles, you become their 'servants'. But if your kamma really bad, you become demigod (asuras) or the enemy of the gods.

They appear with their beautiful garments, and their body radiate aura. Their place of dwelling also appear together with them. They don't stink, they don't sweat. They need to eat , but they don't produce any excrement (pangsai or urinate). They stay in that state for a very long time..... until one day , their body aura recedes, they start to sweat - at that time they knew they are going to die. When they die, they leave nothing behind. (unlike humans who leave behind their coarpse).

But if can get to the deva world is not so bad la.
soul2soul
post Aug 17 2010, 03:29 PM

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QUOTE(eXPeri3nc3 @ Aug 17 2010, 02:55 PM)
It does, to your family members at least. (those who chose not to burn the corpses that is)
One thing I like about Buddhism is that the preachers/teachers don't force you to join it unlike certain alternatives.
*
Have you all ever pondered about death? It seems more and more real as I get older. sad.gif
soul2soul
post Aug 17 2010, 04:12 PM

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The relics of Ven Sariputta and Ven Mahamoganally were found earlier part of 20th century. Parts of them are on display in India, Sri Lanka and Burma. Stupa of Ven Sariputta , the great Marshal of the Dhamma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sariputta



This actually served as a reminder to us that the Buddha and his great disciples were actually REAL people in the past. notworthy.gif

The Relics were excavated by the greedy British , but were later returned to India.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relics_of_Sar..._Mahamoggallana

This post has been edited by soul2soul: Aug 17 2010, 04:16 PM
soul2soul
post Aug 17 2010, 04:33 PM

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QUOTE(eXPeri3nc3 @ Aug 17 2010, 04:15 PM)
soul you read a lot regarding Buddhism or you learned about it from schools?
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Read and study from a teacher.

Accounts of Venerable Mahamoganalla;

Moggallana’s Last Days
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


So the ascetics and the bandits met their end....

This post has been edited by soul2soul: Aug 17 2010, 04:52 PM
soul2soul
post Aug 18 2010, 10:51 AM

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QUOTE(Cho_Hakkai @ Aug 17 2010, 11:12 PM)
Is it true that originally buddha's teaching must come from those written with Sanskrit?

Is it true that Siddhartha Gautama hate things to be written in Sanskrit?
*
Pali earlier, Sanskirt later part of buddhism.
soul2soul
post Aug 18 2010, 11:05 AM

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QUOTE(CyberSetan @ Aug 18 2010, 11:02 AM)
Eh? its back in Kopitiam? section I see~ what happened already
*
a lot of old troll debaters kat RWI
soul2soul
post Aug 18 2010, 11:35 AM

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QUOTE(PetomJL @ Aug 18 2010, 11:30 AM)
Actually its not impossible. According to Islamic teaching, there were 313 rasul and more than 100,000 nabi, but only 25 mentioned in the Quran. But it seemed that it is only an idea and never researched, so I leave it like that.

Anyway, there is a question i've been wondering, are the the chinese gods, demons etc (maybe I watched too much chinese drama  tongue.gif ) part of Buddha's teachings?
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gods / demons - yes in buddhism.

The lower gods have eternal conflict with the Asuras (demons/ jealous ones) after they drove out the Titans from Travatimsa.

Conflicts were recorded in the Buddhist Sutta, where Lord Sakka (king of the gods) admitted to the Buddha his victory over the Titans were done in violence, and the happiness that arose from that occasion were shortlived.

The higher gods are free from those conflicts.

This post has been edited by soul2soul: Aug 18 2010, 11:39 AM
soul2soul
post Aug 18 2010, 11:45 AM

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QUOTE(chezzball @ Aug 18 2010, 11:44 AM)
i tot buddha no god wan
*
Got.

you can become god also, but not easy la.
soul2soul
post Aug 18 2010, 11:51 AM

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QUOTE(HangPC2 @ Aug 18 2010, 11:47 AM)
What a Difference '' Hinayana '' and '' Mahayana '' Sutra
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Theravada - in Pali language, believed to be the language used by the Buddha and his contemparies (closest)

Mahayana - in Sanskrit, emerged about 500 years after the split in Buddhism, and the language was the lingua franca of India at that time, shared by the Hindus also. (sanskrit mantras, etc)


soul2soul
post Aug 18 2010, 11:52 AM

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QUOTE(Joey-kun @ Aug 18 2010, 11:51 AM)
oh yah not meant as an advertisement but there is a buddhist forum out there that allows troll-free discussions for those that are serious:
http://www.tsemtulku.com/forum

its kinda dead at the moment tho lol.
*
LOL. what tradition are you from if I may ask?

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