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 Protoss Discussion Thread Ver. 1, [SEASON 2] Tips & Strategies.

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Quazacolt
post Aug 19 2010, 10:16 AM

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QUOTE(incx @ Aug 18 2010, 10:36 PM)
It depends on what's your opponent is going for. I always have trouble going against zerg players though.

Recently I used a build order, which apparently was supposed to be the general BO that every protoss users use, but seems like I'm ending in losing streaks. Gah.

9 Pylon
12 Gateway
13 Gas / Gateway
15 Cybernetics
so on and so forth...

Somehow I felt like having to wait till 9 probes for Pylon, isn't a bit tad too slow?
*
9 pylon is ok. but if you know you're against zerg, or damn scared of dealing with zerg and ur opponent is random, SCOUT. see that 6 pool being laid? get a 8 py and start narrowing ur choke to fill it up with zealots. straight stalkers wont work against anything not over 13pool (12,11,10,9,8,7,6 kolam renang you name it basically lol)

and even when you got stalkers, do not even bother aggression against zerg whom you KNOW is still massing lings and potentially upgrading speed upgrade if you haven't gotten your blink researched. basically once core done, spam chrono on warp and blink and later on weapon upgrade only lol.

btw my 2nd gate comes out slower, in favor of faster cybernetics. in typically BO, i basically swap my gate with ur cybernetics. then eventually 1-2 more gate depending if i wanna 3 (sometimes even staying JUST 2) gate or 4 gate with robo/stargates
Quazacolt
post Aug 20 2010, 10:12 AM

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QUOTE(raylee914 @ Aug 20 2010, 10:06 AM)
hmmm..his units are almost same with me..which is about 70 to 68 for me (supply units count)
*
reviewed the replay already?
Quazacolt
post Aug 20 2010, 10:51 AM

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QUOTE(raylee914 @ Aug 20 2010, 10:32 AM)
yea..i watched every replay i lost..biggrin.gif

learn from mistakes..but i never stop mistakes lol
*
20 zealots? imho you need to get ur more stalker and less zealots at this point, have the stalkers to blink in (not directly over the thors, just in range if they arent, speed is everything) + snipe the thors, they must be taken out immediately. then after the thors done, deal with the medivacs. so at least stim packs will slowly kill his MM ball by itself even IF you're gonna lose that confrontation. the zealots will have to deal with the MM ball themselves and refrain them from attacking thors, let the stalkers deal with it.

last but not least, while its damn hard to blink focus fires from stim packed MM, do try at least. if he isnt focus firing and are scattering his dps around, then your chances of stalker survival goes up tremendously. ignore the zealots though, they are your meatshield and your primary dps against MM, the terran will have to choose between your zealots or your stalkers and either choice you have the advantage.


Added on August 20, 2010, 10:51 am
QUOTE(evofantasy @ Aug 20 2010, 10:38 AM)
most of ur units are T1 and cost 2 supply each...
when he's up to the thor tech backed by MMM ball...
does he have steam? cause that's such a high dps boost...

maybe u should have do a timing push when ur charge and +1 is done instead of waiting for +2 with T1 units?
*
STIM(ulant) packs. FFS.

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Aug 20 2010, 10:51 AM
Quazacolt
post Aug 20 2010, 03:20 PM

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QUOTE(noob4life @ Aug 20 2010, 03:10 PM)
Just lost 2 games to Terran players...  once again its the MM ball ... .haihz. MM Ball + Medivac and 2 siege tanks = gg for me.

For some reason i never won against terran players.  sad.gif

When u try to get close, u get pounded by marauders, when ure far away siege tanks eat you up. I had around 10 zealots and 8 stalkers, and 2 carriers, his MM ball comes and destroys everything lol. He stimpacked his marines to destroy my carriers ( which happened REALLY fast ), and chewed everything else with Marauders. DAMN i hate marauders SOOO much.    cry.gif  Think i should have gotten high templars instead of carriers. Bad investment there...

Instead of 2 carriers i couldve gotten 2 highs and 2 darks...  use the dark to flank them, and chargelots to tank... psi to finish them off or sumthing.
But then again, i have bad apm.  sweat.gif
*
you said it urself, carrier was ur prob
Quazacolt
post Aug 20 2010, 03:31 PM

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QUOTE(incx @ Aug 20 2010, 03:29 PM)
Is high templar good against  Marauders? If I'm not mistaken, the psi storm damaged is significantly reduced by the Marauders' armors.
*
armor doesnt help AFAIK, however, its not that its bad against rauder, its rauders having lotsa hp. but that does NOT mean psi storm is bad. if any thing, marines would get raped almost instantly, leaving just rauders to be dealt with and zealots eat them for breakfast with charge upgraded.

dont forget stalkers ALSO deal slight dmg bonus to armored too. which is also what makes them so god damn versatile
Quazacolt
post Aug 20 2010, 03:35 PM

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QUOTE(incx @ Aug 20 2010, 03:35 PM)
I should try practicing using HTs now. Out of the many games I played, I don't even remember using them more than twice.

But that's because most vids I watch doesn't utilize HTs that much. So it somewhat got neglected.
*
i hate casters, thats why i dont use em. but rest assured if im forced to, i will lol.
Quazacolt
post Aug 22 2010, 08:04 PM

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QUOTE(f4tE @ Aug 22 2010, 06:28 PM)
usually ppl will have air support with colossus la unless noob and if use zerg and din go for air unit sure die against colossus liao.. once protoss out that unit lose liao la.. dunno how to play
*
expensive, slow to tech. and by slow i meant thermal lance upgrade too. colo without lance upgrade is worthless as hell :/
Quazacolt
post Aug 23 2010, 12:15 PM

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QUOTE(RtP|DEV @ Aug 23 2010, 05:52 AM)
I think people should post their replay when they want to ask for advise. The thing is in RTS every situation are different. Sometimes you lose because your opponent outplayed you using game mechanics alone. Your build order can be wrong because you followed gosu's replay blindly without understanding the reasoning behind it. You might lose because you got supply blocked but you think  his army composition beat yours. There's a lot of tactical decision involved in Starcraft, its not as simple as building unit composition A to counter unit composition B.

People shouldn't be ashamed to post their losing replays. No matter where you're at, there's always people better than you. To me thats what makes this game fun. You'll always learn something new everyday, the journey never stops. The analogy i can give is when i play Civilizations i just cant stop. One more turn, one more turn. When i achieved my goals, my thought is "ok thats it, i've won". Then only i realized that achieving my goals is not the fun part but the process to achieve my goals is.
*
yeap. like TLO's radical build orders/play. not easy to follow at all.


Added on August 23, 2010, 12:20 pm
QUOTE(Mio4Ever @ Aug 23 2010, 11:23 AM)
Yeah, hate it when I scout badly and realized there's one bunker and rax with reactor inside my base, lol.
*
that one not so bad. whats bad is when terran reaper proxy with or even without bunker (with bunker you can early gg ady lol).

heres the dilemma:

early zealots to fend rushes/proxy yes? wrong. reapers rape zealot.

solution is to fast tech stalkers. but here, we're talking about a proxy, where you know, reapers would be at ur gate when ur gateway is just shortly done, so lets not even think about cybernetics. sure, you can scout, but do you realize, that probes do take time to take out tech labs? lol.

while im not saying this is impossible to beat as ive done my share of beating said proxies. but i've pulled a number of these myself and the winrate is fairly high lol

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Aug 23 2010, 12:20 PM
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post Aug 23 2010, 01:59 PM

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QUOTE(f4tE @ Aug 23 2010, 01:54 PM)
hi, i wanna ask is stalker or phoenix better against air? I compare and see stalker damage more than phoenix and shoot faster.  stalker oso cheaper. So shud i use stalker instead of pheonix? Cuz i only go for ground unit and uprgade ground stuff only. WIll be watse to upgrade just because i use phoenix.
*
stalker less micro needed. phoenix need to micro (run away and shoot, works wonders against mutas/corruptors but not vikings lol)

but consider this: ground unit less mobility (blink on cooldown) and air unit, in particular phoenixes, moves really fast and can cover a lot of ground
Quazacolt
post Aug 23 2010, 03:23 PM

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QUOTE(goldfries @ Aug 23 2010, 03:16 PM)
ok. assuming 1 vs 1, what do you guys build vs zergling rush and MMM rush?

i tried 4 gateway spam zealots and stalkers, seems to work pretty well 1 on 1.
*
for terran ill stalkers mix sentry for guardian. if resource permit, i will hallu, or 3 gate hallu/chargelots.
Quazacolt
post Aug 24 2010, 11:54 AM

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QUOTE(rlinux @ Aug 24 2010, 11:17 AM)
I am starting to lose confidence when I had a losing streak to Terran with MM. They do not have medics not medivacs. It was a pure marines and marauders, like 10 marines, 5 marauders and it got me down repeatedly by different players and they claimed to be from bronze league. Are there no better secure way to counter this? Build order isn't my issue I guess. All they do is block while they sped up for marauders with stimpack. Gather 10 marines, 5 marauders then they're off to kick my a**. I had 8 spiders 4 zealots or around there most of the time, but they pawned me real bad. Even if I was able to sweep them out while warping a few more out, they next attack will definitely put me down which is like a minute or two ahead from the first attack. This time, with medivacs and medics.
*
how sure are you on this? this could be a factor on how slow/fast your stalkers come out, and/or sentries. and those are your key to MM until you get chargelots (which does take some time)

and if they can recover faster than you despite you winning a skirmish, then its ur economy/macro/BO for sure.
Quazacolt
post Aug 24 2010, 09:40 PM

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» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


fuyoh very detail with graphical explanation thumbup.gif


Added on August 24, 2010, 9:42 pm
QUOTE(nexous @ Aug 24 2010, 08:42 PM)
BTW if you build your gateways like RtP|DEV's pic, you can block entrance using a single zealot.

If you can rush stalkers to defend behind your wall, you can make a single zealot + sentries to dps+FF when your zealot's shields are up. In fact, you'll have more since the zealot can be started when your core is warping in.

If you wall off completely, it just means you can't expand later without breaking your pylon or making a warp prism.
*
wrong, with the way he build, its perfectly sealed and no zealot is required. typically i dont do complete sealing ever unless im against zerg, and thats typically when im trying to fast tech cheese tongue.gif

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Aug 24 2010, 09:42 PM
Quazacolt
post Aug 24 2010, 10:55 PM

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QUOTE(nexous @ Aug 24 2010, 09:54 PM)
I don't know if you misread me or just don't know. If you build the gateways like in the pic without the in between pylon, a zealot and probe can cross between the gateways. A stalker can't. Try it.
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which part would the zealot/probe fit through then?
Quazacolt
post Aug 24 2010, 11:12 PM

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QUOTE(nexous @ Aug 24 2010, 11:08 PM)
Why don't you try it out? Make the gateways adjacent and diagonal to each other like in the pic posted earlier without the pylon in between. Then test move your units.

Or if you look at the pic, see the arrow pointing from the probe?
*
yeah, not going through. did you even read his msg btw? "completely seal off" part?
Quazacolt
post Aug 25 2010, 12:13 AM

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http://www.quazacolt.com/starcraft2/replay...block.SC2Replay

better yet, a full featured replay

and lol i f***ed my BO really BAD doing that 2 gate. since im a stalker player and all... and he f***ed my gas too D:


Added on August 25, 2010, 12:13 am
QUOTE(Calvin Seak @ Aug 24 2010, 11:55 PM)
lol why do you need to seal your base so tightly?

What do you go after sealing your base biggrin.gif
*
DT/void cheese. loolololo


Added on August 25, 2010, 12:15 am
CODE
[URL=http://www.quazacolt.com/starcraft2/replays/lolblock.SC2Replay]complete seal guide by rtp|dev played by Quazacolt[/URL]


unker incx! add to front page please. lol

can copy the above pictar + guide too by rtp

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Aug 25 2010, 12:18 AM
Quazacolt
post Aug 25 2010, 06:07 PM

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QUOTE(nexous @ Aug 25 2010, 05:37 PM)
Against Terran you should go 10 pylon 10 gateway. Core and gas asap after gateway is up and queue your stalker quickly. This will keep you safe against early reaper rush.

You can queue 1 zealot when your core is warping in. By the time the core is up, zealot should be done and stalker can be made asap.
*
9 py 12 gate.

why risk ur econ when the terran is gonna turtle his balls off till he got a sizeble MM/stim upgraded anyways? and you can always chrono ur stalkers if you KNOW theres reapers coming (scouting, hello?)

also, zealot is free food to reapers, id highly suggest you skipping it if you KNOW theres reapers.

ps: go for an lol block so you have 1 less entrance to worry about (watched the replay? OLLOOLOLOLOLOLOL)
Quazacolt
post Aug 25 2010, 09:17 PM

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QUOTE(nexous @ Aug 25 2010, 08:51 PM)
10gate can make a stalker 20t faster than 13 gate, and is only 35 minerals behind at the 2:30 mark. Gas is also faster with 10gate if assimilator is always timed with core. 10gate is also faster tech.

10gate's 1st stalker (chrono'ed) comes out at 3:50
11gate's 1st stalker (chrono'ed) is at 4:10

terran 10rax turbo reaper is at 3:23.
So yes, 20t is very important.

Also 1 zealot is very important vs early marauder. Having Stalker + Zealot allows your stalkers to hit Marus while your Zealot tanks. Remember: Marus win vs Stalkers straight up. Also, Zealots have a higher dps than Stalkers so if Marus just ignore your Zealot, they die even faster.
EDIT to add:
Maru ball will of course be creamed by VRs/immortals, but with gateway units, just make a balance of zealots and stalkers. The thing is, zealots do more dps than Stalkers but a Stalker light army will be kited to death. A Stalker heavy army will be eaten alive by Maru's higher dps.
*
econ wise 12 gate would always superior with just slight set back on the first stalker in favor for a 3-4 gate play, or even decent robo teching while your stalkers continue to pump.

also, that 1 zealot = free kill for marauder concussive.
and terrans typically do 11 rax(or 10 rax with thats very close to 11)/gas/SD in same 11 food timing. watch the IEM replays.

and zealot are 50 shield 100hp, stalkers 80/80... so uh... not quite lol
they do have higher dps thats for sure, provide they dont get kited/sniped to death loololol

and lol maru...
Quazacolt
post Aug 25 2010, 11:00 PM

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QUOTE(nexous @ Aug 25 2010, 09:30 PM)
12gate is superior, a tiny bit. Like I said, 35 minerals (lol) at the 2:30 mark. Whether this gap widens or closes depends on chronoboost strategy.

Zealot is almost always a must vs Marus. Reason again and again is Stalkers suck vs Marus. You say Stalkers have 10hp more than Zealots but do you know they take bonus damage from Marus? Marus will obliterate any pure Stalker army. Stalker's only use is to take pot shots at Marus when they're kiting Zealots. That's what I said in earlier, read it again.

The reaper strat used in the IEM especially by Morrow is NOT a turbo reaper strat typical in TvP. It's a delayed reaper build where you go for more reapers instead of faster reapers.
Delayed reapers suck vs protoss as Stalkers > Reapers.

Just to add numbers:

Marus do 10 dmg (+10 to armored)

9 hits to kill a Stalker
16 hits to kill a Zealot
*
thats where careful micro comes in. pure stalkers would still amass slightly quicker than rauders due to warp gate, and theres always the option to go 1) chargelot 2) immortals or even a 4 gate stalker spam mixing some zealots in to soak dmg while the stalkers just obliterate everything.

and lets not forget sentries for shield and or force block to split the MM up for the killing
and yes, i do know rauders do 20 dmg to stalkers, however stalker does 14 in return to rauders too, so it isnt too bad eitherway. if you add in shields, its 18 dmg vs 14. so the gap is even lesser.

of course theres stim pack in the equation, and thats where you play the terran is OP card.

and FFS, maru? really? wtf maru.
Quazacolt
post Aug 26 2010, 04:32 AM

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QUOTE(nexous @ Aug 25 2010, 11:21 PM)
VRs and Immortals are not answers to a Maru timing push. There's no reason a Terran pushes with only Marus well into stargate/robotics tech. They can also push in the timing window before your immortal/VR is up, when you've just invested a ton of mins/gas on tech and have a lesser army.

The numbers I gave above already accounted for armor and shields.
Sentry shield is rather useless vs large hits like those from Marus. They are great vs Marines and lings though.

I'm not sure if you've seen a 2/3 Maru push/harass. Essentially only 2/3 Marus knocking at your door. If you have 1 zealot/2 stalkers, you'll have an easy time against this as opposed to a pure 3 stalker composition. Marus eat Stalkers for breakfast.

Stalkers do crap dps btw. Zealots do more dps to armored units than even Stalkers with their +2 bonus. Don't believe me? Take the unit's damage multiplied by the inverse of their attack speed. Stalkers are about the most crap damagers in the game, with exception to sentries.
*
1) toss tech transition is a easier compared to other races due to chrono

2) sentry shield against zergling...? really? wow. (tooltip is ur friend btw)

3) without stim pack, i can out micro/macro rauders at my gates and i have the defensive position advantage. warp gates should be about done too thanks to chrono

4) stalkers may not be the highest dps'ers, but they certainly do not do crap dps. why else people f***ing 3-4 gate and spam stalkers all day long?

5) you play sc2 with the objective of taking out your enemy. not looking at a dps meter like some dpser in WoW raids. seriously.

6) and for god's sake, Marauder. rauder, mara are common shorts. maru? what the f***.


Added on August 26, 2010, 4:34 am
QUOTE(evofantasy @ Aug 25 2010, 11:37 PM)
build wise, i am in the same school ar nexous...
getting a zealot before a stalker (by the time ur zealot is done, ur core is just done)...
after all i experienced the marauder opening a few times on beta to be vary of it...
even if he go reaper and zealot is bad against it (with 2-3 probes off mining), it would buy me some time for my stalker to come out...

nt only PvT, on PvP having some zealots is still better (i tried a pure stalker compo and got owned by stalkers backed with some zealots)

how many zealots to stalkers?
based on my gut instinct and my resources LOL
*
PVP/PVZ i will typically get a zealot in 1v1, PVT however, i favor more stalkers so i dont get my zealot free kited and killed. once i get charge up then i will only bother zealots.

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Aug 26 2010, 04:34 AM
Quazacolt
post Aug 26 2010, 09:33 AM

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QUOTE(raylee914 @ Aug 26 2010, 09:14 AM)
same to me..no charge no zealots,
normally I used 1 sentry 2 stalker def in the base while I speed build obs to scout their base
*
if PVP or PVZ can zealot without charge. if PVT, f***ing concuss just makes em too god damn useless. and in 1v1, losing that 1-2 unit early on can very well mean a gg depending on the situation

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