Protoss Discussion Thread Ver. 1, [SEASON 2] Tips & Strategies.
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 Feb 28 2011, 01:27 PM
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#321
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2,690 posts Joined: Aug 2005 From: Penang/ Kuala Lumpur 
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QUOTE(Azurues @ Feb 28 2011, 01:20 PM) They should buff carrier instead if they drop HT. stim marines, kill the interceptors then proceed to kill carriers...I only used carrier in 1 game and it died horribly to Marines.   |
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Apr 11 2011, 03:10 AM
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#322
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2,690 posts Joined: Aug 2005 From: Penang/ Kuala Lumpur
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zeal are quite useless in high lvl games lol...
cause sentry+stalker with FF is so much better while u sink minerals into expo for 'sharking'... its ok to dump minerals to zeal for FF funneling but tat's all... the new ZvP is the quick upgrades for speedling+bling (with drops)... no1 really go roach hydra now... this compo is so much harder as the deathball is so much harder to get and sharking gets more difficult if u missed a good FF... ---------- avoid 15nexus now plz... its been discovered and discussed to death... not possible on most maps and good zergs would jz do as they please (see GSTL)... This post has been edited by evofantasy: Apr 11 2011, 03:13 AM |
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Apr 11 2011, 04:35 AM
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#323
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2,690 posts Joined: Aug 2005 From: Penang/ Kuala Lumpur
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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Apr 11 2011, 04:06 AM) lets face it, we arent playing in the GSL, and we arent in master leagues or grand master leagues playing serious as cancer games. if i am in any of the aforementioned situations (gsl, master leagues etc) then yea, i probably wouldn't have said anything i've said on the few posts before. but the fact is, i'm not, and neither does the majority of the posters in this thread, or this forum. they are used but quite rare (mostly on allin type of builds or crashing into spines)...hell, even in GSL zealots are still being used (well, mainly PvP). the last time i've seen tester playing, (GSL late feb/early march) he still zealots. and lol his dancing zealot micros. i dont know about SEA 1v1's, however in NA 1v1 at plat/diamond above levels zerg still go roach hydra. (more accurately, just roach spam, or roach mix with lings to surround stalkers) while that TL thread is outdated, some zerg still play roach hydras and its a help nonetheless to protoss players who encounter them. then again, i can never comprehend people using hydras without grooved spines. hydras are useless as it is when anything touches them. having grooved spines helps them keep their distance and they can actually dish out dps in peace instead of dying to random aoe/ranged or even chargelots as i said, they dun work tat well with FF unless u need mineral dump/ lings... i dun see much point to FF at times if i have more zeal (mc donut LOL) especially during sharking as you would prefer range units... even so now zerg are doing ling/blings a lot on SEA nowadays which negate the usefulness of zeal... if u noticed the 3gate FE, it is basically 1zeal, 8sentry while dumping minerals into nexus, forge, cannons, pylons, tonnes of probes and 1-2 more gates... from there its the dethball while u shark around the map... when ur WG is off CD and u have extra minerals then only u warp zeals in... to me tat is the optimum build in PvZ now (this and the forge expand)... again 15nexus is pretty much a bad build as zergs can kill u in so many way/ get map control and kill u later (GSTL)... ps: nt a fan of chargelot in PvZ... look good on paper until u realize how fast they melt to hydras as roaches tank em lol (haven met any1 tat go pure hydras which is /lol imho)... they are good if u can flank them on the open hydras... tat 200gas better off spent somewhere else like blink/ colossus/ VR (aka deathballs) This post has been edited by evofantasy: Apr 11 2011, 04:36 AM |
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Apr 11 2011, 05:56 AM
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#324
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2,690 posts Joined: Aug 2005 From: Penang/ Kuala Lumpur
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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Apr 11 2011, 05:03 AM) well exactly, they let me crash into spines and can defend my stalkers in case of flanking speedlings. granted, i could've used sentries more/better, but like i said, im no fan of casters. and naw, ff still have its purpose even with zeals, or vice versa. simply ff'ing behind roach to prevent escape trapping the chargelots with them can be very devastating even to meaty roaches. dont forget, they cost gas, zeals dont. and with stalkers backing em zeals, chances are your zealot casualty would be damn minimum. all that while the ff cuts the hydra off in half. roaches cost 75/25, 2 food, 1 armor with a burst damage of 20 to zeal (zeal deal 2 strikes thus bigger armor difference)...of course assuming thats a roach hydra comp ur facing. even with lings, since you ff behind the roach, your zeals can always fall back to defend ur stalkers as needed. and honestly im not sure why you're talking about 15 nexus on and off when im going on about how early constant pressure can be effective (and fun!) without the need to go into mid/late game. not sure about you, but you can always run by roaches and go straight for the hydras. if the roach goes for ur zeal, ur stalker free reign, if they go for your stalkers, your zealots most likely can take the hydras while in more likely hood that those stalkers can take out the roaches with proper kiting. and i dont know about you, but why "deathball" when my aim is early game anyways? if mid/late game will occur, i transition THEN also wont be a problem so long the pressuring and/or economical dmg is done to the zerg. even more so if you destroyed his expo and camp his ramp while you expand yourself. 2 base toss vs 1 base zerg... the outcome is pretty damn obvious lol i nt sure about u but any toss who had played PvZ of at least diamond would know how bad zeal is vs roach... usually u can rarely find zerg escaping with roaches btw, they'll move in front and go for sentries (or focus down stalkers)... zergs dun retreat in ZvP as FF negate tat possibility (unless burrow + claw) vs 5gate allin... and cutting hydras into half while having roaches in front are not really possible as half of ur army will take damage from the hdyra's 6 range still... instead FF is used to keep ur colossus alive while providing a nice line for the splash (u rarely see tat many sentry late game as the toss get into the deathball)... FF is also used to push back army in mid game (obsolete in late game as their supply make way for deathball units)... ^ but since u said early game, there wont be any colossus for u well unless ur opponent have bad creep spread or micro, roaches will always be there to block... any good zerg wont engage ur army without creep if he is going hydras... and gateway army will never be able to standup to a hdyra based army without colossus/ storm... likewise most zerg will not risk their roach off creep without speed upgrade lol... with tat in mind, stalkers cant kite roaches... thus its hard to flank zergs usually, toss need to ball up usually... i talked about 15nexus as there is 3 most common PvZ opening at the moment... 15nexus while popularized by sangho, is dead (as zerg do go gas->pool->hatch nowadays)... 3gate expand as standard. being the safest build of all with solid transitions and timing openings.. forge expand for certain maps for a deadly 2 base timing... --------------------- u dun end game early vs good zergs... what you said its not possible in most games i had been playing/ observing... unless the zerg dunno hw to scout/ too kiasu to sac OL/ overdrone... anytime a zerg sees a toss on 1 base, it would be 2-3 spine with a roach warren up (stopping drones at around 20-30)... burrow + claw is standard now most of the time if the zerg is going roach (non all-in) thanks to MC's games lol... and 4gate (PvZ 4 gate is around 7 min mark with a pretty good signal on their gas and army compo)? pretty high fail rate as long as the zerg knows what is he doing (unless u are MC with sick ass micro)... why are protoss focusing on deathballs nowadays? cause they are the best way to win a zerg, not early game... that is why you have the 'sharking' concept, pressure not kill until the deathball (u can ask scrubbie etc about this)... u dun kill a good zerg early game usually... these are the SEA zerg players at gold level when i had played with/ observed in custom games... not even plat/ diamond players and yet they knows the basic mechanics of a zerg... these are all basic things, no need imba micro or anything... zergs are in fact the true 1a race in PvZ and there is nothing much for them to micro (FF imba) lol... the main theme of ZvP now (which i think any pros would agree on): delay the 2nd base, stop the toss from getting the 3rd base and the deathball... its no longer idra macro style zerg... we are seeing hydra drops, bling drops, nydus, 24ling 3-5roach rush, 2 base roach allin etc... ----------- and how is there a toss tat dun use sentry? its like the bread and butter of the protoss except PvP (though MC jz changed it again lol)... the skill ceiling of a toss is based on their FF usage... |
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Apr 11 2011, 02:06 PM
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#325
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2,690 posts Joined: Aug 2005 From: Penang/ Kuala Lumpur
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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Apr 11 2011, 11:39 AM) » Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... « if its non chargelot vs roach, then yeah, i do agree its absolutely horrible. chargelot just makes it a lot more bearable with decent micro (activate ur charge for runby/surrounds lol) and yes, hydras without creep are also asking for free kills. though, if you've seen my reply anyways i was attacking the zerg's expo full time, and needless to say it was on creep. i still think regardless of creep, roach speed is essential. as i said many times in this thread, had that zerg i fought have speed upgrade, i could've possibly lost. though i will always disagree on the "x must do y, y must do z" ( like "toss must deathball" for example) etc etc for any race regardless. im not a GSL player, nor am i a master league player and i personally dont think i deserve my 1v1 diamond (i dont see why my last season plat would enable me to go into diamond after 1 game that i LOST in season 2 either) i definitely can play the game the way i like and most importantly, still see success from it. which was the whole point of the replay sharing anyways. Hell, even nony does his phoenix play that hes famous for, and nony is not your average player. though admittedly phoenix plays are quite hard to execute for most people. point being, that aint no death ball. yes, the zerg i fought was pretty bad. thats not changing and thats a fact. however you pointed out: that was how it went exactly. 4 gate you could start to poke a bit between 6-7min mark, though nowdays i rarely poke alone with stalkers cuz as you said, early gas, speedlings would just chew low stalker count with ease. with 1-2 zealot to soak/kill lings, thats much safer (though as pointed out on TL, lack mobility) again, what you said isnt incorrect, however you are missing the main point of my posts, which is sc2, being a damn diverse game, have no 100% absolute way to play it. death balls may or may not be the best way to win zergs, however as you know it also, its not the only way. so long you score a victory at the end of the day, anything goes, even a good ole photon cannon cheese. (even in the highest level korean plays where money is involved, you can also see people cheesing. why not on the lower level players?) i still use sentries to be exact, just very minimal, and from the replay, very late. (after im done on chargelot/weapon upgrade) this is obviously a problem in majority of my PvZ matchups, and even to an extend PvT where guardian shield, MM splitting is essential. its no surprise no doubt. i still manage to get wins off, stay in plat which im rather happy with. though stupid bnet think its fun to troll me and dump me in diamond so too bad so sad. team games however, my ally can get them, while i focus on the main physical firepower. it works, and im definitely happy with it lol. and hell, i play most of my ladder in team games, and i think that is no surprise by now either. phoenix build are pretty much vulnerable to hydra drops nowadays... as u said the game is diverse but the meta etc is pushing towards the deathball... deathball is by far the best build to go against zerg off a expansion while sharking of course... early aggression is quite allin-ish if u get too far into their creep and loose ur army... that's just me but i prefer a much safer opening with the highest winning rate... of course if i scouted him to be lacking unit/ overdorne i'll jz go kill him LOL... the game plan is always the deathball, how u get there or kill him is up to ur scouting =p This post has been edited by evofantasy: Apr 11 2011, 02:09 PM |
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Apr 11 2011, 06:42 PM
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#326
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2,690 posts Joined: Aug 2005 From: Penang/ Kuala Lumpur
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QUOTE(quest_5692 @ Apr 11 2011, 04:36 PM) threads in starcraft forum are always the same. arguement over different level of play...4 gates still work perfectly fine in low level game and has the highest winning rate while in higher levels, your opponent is already good enuf to fend off your 4 gate without loss. any strat would work on gold level...theres no point to argue over different level of meta game -.- even some will work up to diamond (my clanmate jz proxy hatched in the toss's base when he saw a forge expand and won lol) |
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Apr 11 2011, 07:05 PM
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#327
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2,690 posts Joined: Aug 2005 From: Penang/ Kuala Lumpur
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QUOTE(quest_5692 @ Apr 11 2011, 06:48 PM) but clearly the strat you guys are discussing right now doesnt work from your level of understanding and apparently it works fabulously at quaz's level. well u should knw i do watch a lot GSL etc...and i do observe tonnes of games (used to be in koth etc) from time to time... i have theory, i dun have the practical haha... mechanics nt good enuff to pull those off... |
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Apr 11 2011, 07:18 PM
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#328
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2,690 posts Joined: Aug 2005 From: Penang/ Kuala Lumpur
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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Apr 11 2011, 07:10 PM) you should probably try to play less by the book then. at least it'll be a lot more fun that way. its not like you're in masters/GSL etc. and since you're not, why not play games the way they are meant to be - fun? reason y i dun ladder now haha...i mean, i could probably play toss death ball strats all day erry day, use sentries/HT liek a bawse, win games, etc. but if im not happy about at the end of the day, whats the point? i do go troll ladder games at times on NA though =p i think i can handle diamond lvl players still (base traded some 3.3k zerg and won b4 season 2)... i only play team game with frens/ clanmate (all random trolling team FTW) usually on ladder... just tat i dun really have much mood to ladder (personal reason + work stress) up to the point of watching less tournaments/ day9 nowadays... its nt really play by the book but its what i learnt from gsl + the games i played and observe... and i do agree they are the best/ optimum... even when i could only pull off 70-80% of what they did, i can really see the difference... i still have my own build (just pulled one off yesterday haha)... i only use roughly their idea, i dun follow any BO (my clanmates should know this by now) or timing... its all reaction with gameplan.. and watching GSL/ obs games give u the general idea on how should u regret... having theory helps =p for every new toss, starting with 3gate FE in PvZ is always the best build i would suggest... 1 base play would require micro and nt much macro which will stop u from improving mid/ late game... ps: kai troll by raging but he have solid FF and mechanics... he have a unique timing based style play... This post has been edited by evofantasy: Apr 11 2011, 07:23 PM |
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Apr 11 2011, 07:48 PM
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#329
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2,690 posts Joined: Aug 2005 From: Penang/ Kuala Lumpur
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QUOTE(quest_5692 @ Apr 11 2011, 07:41 PM) siewkaiz won me twice using heavy immo zealot based timing attack. i was shocked that time cuz all i recall was him trolling here only lol and was expecting an easy win lol lol his timing atks are really good and well timed...he had lots of ladder experience after all... he might rage a lot but tat's jz trolling lol... |
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Apr 24 2011, 06:32 PM
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#330
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2,690 posts Joined: Aug 2005 From: Penang/ Kuala Lumpur
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when a player win/loose its always the race not the player <insert facepalm here>
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Apr 25 2011, 07:33 PM
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#331
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2,690 posts Joined: Aug 2005 From: Penang/ Kuala Lumpur
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QUOTE(quest_5692 @ Apr 25 2011, 05:22 PM) siew kai, if you see terran stay in one base for quite long, definitely its a banshee raven tank alike all in coming. wont be able to afford cloak if he go for tat build...you need only 2-3 pheonix (i think you should have same pheonix count as his banshee count), then mainly zealot immortal based army from my experience (since you need an obs to spot potential cloak banshee). and shark your main group of army in the middle of map, not turtle in your base. cuz you want to lure a battle in the middle ground, force PDD then retreat back to your base. the terran wont attack until he has another PDD. he wont have marauders so you should be able to win. aye? haha the longer you drag the game, the better you are. and only stay in 1 base until you feel safe... |
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Apr 26 2011, 04:39 PM
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#332
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2,690 posts Joined: Aug 2005 From: Penang/ Kuala Lumpur
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happy wit the chances...
time to proxy 2 gate over and over again =p archons harder to get kite and can break FFs? this till help PvT and PvP |
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Apr 27 2011, 01:24 PM
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#333
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2,690 posts Joined: Aug 2005 From: Penang/ Kuala Lumpur
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honestly i like 4gate in PvP...
its the most micro intensive decision making mirror match imho... 1 mismicro for ur stalkers or warping in the wrong units will cost u the game... |
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Apr 28 2011, 11:01 PM
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#334
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2,690 posts Joined: Aug 2005 From: Penang/ Kuala Lumpur
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QUOTE(Calvin Seak @ Apr 28 2011, 10:49 PM) Wow awesome! Something new! Could you show us how you execute it so we could follow? Are the two gates to make a fast stalker to pick up overlords before speedlings are out?? yup quite...Maybe one day I'll start back my streams and explain while I play and try to answer all the spectators questions if there are any hehe  It's sad that alicia lost to losira today on gsl.. A few roaches and mass zergling could really take down a 3gate expo toss  Even at cross spawning rate on metalopolis and terminus re if I am not mistaken i think stalker based expo is possible but u are at risk to the spanishiwa build... so it depends on ur scouting to identify and get the best unit comp... |
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May 2 2011, 11:16 PM
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#335
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2,690 posts Joined: Aug 2005 From: Penang/ Kuala Lumpur
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protoss are the weakest race in korea officially now:
http://twitpic.com/4sdkpv/full Added on May 2, 2011, 11:17 pmany terran/ zerg QQ bout toss OP need to get shot lol This post has been edited by evofantasy: May 2 2011, 11:17 PM |
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May 3 2011, 11:29 AM
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#336
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2,690 posts Joined: Aug 2005 From: Penang/ Kuala Lumpur
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QUOTE(quest_5692 @ May 3 2011, 08:34 AM) whats the source of data of that graph? and is it post patch 1.3.3? its on team liquid...its the data from the past 6 months for KR server (NA server much more balanced but we knw KR is where the fun is) |
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May 9 2011, 01:14 PM
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#337
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2,690 posts Joined: Aug 2005 From: Penang/ Kuala Lumpur
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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ May 8 2011, 08:13 PM) lol hard counters. well technically immortals do 'hard' counter tanks...zeal are more to soft counters... in the end it depends on hw u wanna micro ur army... immortal going in to tank the first shot and then chargelot go in to splash among the marines? to me i prefer the soft counter approch against tanks... chargleots + colossus... its a better unit compo especially when the tank/ marine count get too high... u can see whitera etc doing such compo instead of immortals... |
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May 9 2011, 05:36 PM
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#338
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2,690 posts Joined: Aug 2005 From: Penang/ Kuala Lumpur
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QUOTE(SiewKaiz @ May 9 2011, 04:50 PM) but with good placement tanks > immortal more like maps like scrap station, crossfire which make tanks very good...thus u need units with big range like colossus though there are hgih chances u will loose all ur colossus (especially wit vikings and EMP) but its the only way to break through tank lines (no dun tell me mothership/ carriers off 2 base) |
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May 9 2011, 07:06 PM
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#339
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2,690 posts Joined: Aug 2005 From: Penang/ Kuala Lumpur
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QUOTE(Timber2k7 @ May 9 2011, 06:28 PM) zealot drop! drop into marine and viking meh  " |
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May 9 2011, 11:53 PM
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#340
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QUOTE(quest_5692 @ May 9 2011, 07:22 PM) you already have robo as default in a PvT and warp prisms doesnt need gas so its a nice mineral dump. just like zealot. but the micros required is > 9000. we even rarely see progamers does so. only in............i think nexgenius pulled it off once and we discussed in lowyat forum b4...its very hard. and the warp prisms you can use it to drop immortals and pick up injured immortals. its only good when the tank/ marine count are low...check broodwar zealot bomb. in BW they do it alot cuz they have x2 our APM. after tat its hard as warp prism is sooo fragile... the rest hahli9 covered it... about using colossus over immortals etc |
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