hold off that FE till ~20 drones or so, you need to have a sizeble army to contain him to buy time for your hydras and overwhelp him with hydras and at that time, even if he got immortals out, its already too late.

the key is to get either hydras or mutas out asap, BOTH are viable and BOTH have its pros and cons.

mutas main pro: mobility, the option to pin the toss in his base trying to defend your worker harrassment etc. cons: stalkers are gonna rape you, but then again, with good micro, and a sizeble ground force to cover the mutas, they can still hold their ground.

hydras main pro: cheap, and good range/dmg/speed. all rounder good ground unit, and definitely can rape stalkers/zealots EASY. cons: immortals can take them unlike mutas, but again, due to the higher range of hydras, so long you play your cards right, they will still do well

imho yes because if you skip roach to straight hydra/muta you may have a gap and early aggression from toss may just done you in. not to mention, hydras alone cant tank shit lol, you need roaches to tank (EVEN IF this means suiciding against immortals)

hydras speed themselves unless on creep, are just too slow to outrun (even possibly non teched) charging zealots, much less blinking stalkers :/

btw, theres always the dillema when it comes to fast games
one thing about FEs: you have to invest 300 upfront, which can equate to ~4 roaches, a LOT more zerglings, or 3+ hydras/3 mutas excluding their gas count. thats not even including workers required to ULTILIZE the FE, an under ultilized FE is as good as wasting your cast that are better off spent on army.

because of the reasons above, some games i ENTIRELY ignore expanding and just 1 base it through. VERY workable with terran/toss, *SLIGHTLY* harder on zerg mainly due to the larvae productions an expo could provide
provided, you get a 2nd queen, and thats yet another 150, well, you could have ur queen working her way through creep tumor/overlord creep spewing to link the expo/main and have her traveling for larvae, but the problem is that its 1) slower 2) shes susceptible to ganks lol 3) link creeps would take time for either lair > overlord spewing or queen energy for tumor (remember that ur spamming larvae almost every 25 energy you get)

i think you may want 9 overlord and skip the extractor trick, do it once you get pool. why? 80mineral = *SLIGHT* delay in pool. you'll want that pool out ASAP for zergling preasure + early queen to get her energy started

and really, i think the main problem with your build is the HUGE vulnerability period where a 10pool or even a 13pool speedlinger would either utterly destroy you, or simply leave you crippled to the point where you may as well just surrender the game.

and i noticed (based on ur posted build) how you're very focused on ur macro/econ. thats good if the game drags to mid/late, however, there is NO mid/late game if ur pinned/preasured from the start or worse, steamrolled :/

a recommended BO without FE would be 13 ling and if ur opponents arent doing too well against your preasure, you get the option to speed upgrade to kill them off, or save that 100 gas for quick lair into muta/hydra if you wanna play it a lil more safer. get 1 spine on 14-15 ish if you dont feel like commiting too much on zerglings and wanna go straight into roaches/muta/hydra. the basic idea is that you need to have at least a couple of zergling to 1) take up watch towers 2) scout, better than workers barnone lol. 25 minerals and moves WAAAY faster 3) harrass/preasure opponents

alternatively, 10 ling into a steady speedling upgrade if all you want is focusing on zerglings especially when you are SURE (be it scout/opponents playstyle etc) that he is aiming for a mid/late game and is turtling out his balls. while it may slow ur econ a little (honestly, not by much, and most importantly, you get queen earlier ) the main benefit of this is that really early preasure you can pull and it catches opponents off guard (admittedly, myself too, which ive learned to spine up myself if i wanna play a mid/late game zerg vs zerg) when they are having a mid/late game mindset (namely, you)

know this: when you're commiting into zerglings, you are NOT spending ANY gas at all, in which transition into mutas are MUCH smoother due to their HIGH requirement of gas and would still be damn viable despite the lack of an early expansion (which again, you saved from commiting yourself to said expansion)

the best/safest way to determine a good time for a FE, would be a mirror with your opponent. if he does it, you follow suite. or, if he does it, you dont follow, and you roll HIS FE. since he need to commit 350/400/400+worker time (races) and you dont, which means a logically larger army than his considering the money you could've spent compared to him.

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Added on May 18, 2010, 3:18 pmei 3 spine vs 3 zealot spine wins dei lol.
before they even hit you 1 zealot is half hp ady from 3x spine FF

somemore ur spine got almost twice the hp compared to zealots >.>
and when you have 3 spines, most likely you have a queen for assist

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: May 18 2010, 03:18 PM

100 min per zealot vs 150 per spine, considering zealot hp/dmg vs spines, its almost equal with spines having range advantage. so quite honestly, it shouldnt even be compared and if he got 10 zealots, you *SHOULD* have equalvalent spine + army give/take and it'll come down to micro/macro + BO (this is only assuming you arent lagging behind too much on econ, and even this, the difference shouldnt be huge considering its an early game with no expansions involved. unless of course ur terribad then nothing to say.

4 zealot equalvalent mineral cost is 16 lings, and 16lings should own the 4 zealots. in fact, if open space when the zerglings can surround, they do stand a decent chance on a 10ling vs 4 zealot fight

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Spine_crawler bro, 150 is total. 100 + 50

and look at hp and dmg and range comparison. the zealot's advantage = mobility, spine is a defensive structure, and we all know units > structure in general for sc2 (lol mass cannons in sc1)

also, swing timer reset? srsly, zealots full stop to hit, 1 single full stop is enough time for a non upgraded zergling to box the zealot considering its size. the only time where a (group of) zergling couldnt surround is a good entry choke point (why else even toss build pylons/gateways in a way to form a narrower choke point? lol)

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Added on May 18, 2010, 4:31 pm

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: May 18 2010, 04:31 PM

roach > zealots lol. charge upgrade just makes it 'much less painful for the zealots'
but yeah, if zerg is skippin lings for roach, you'd have a couple zealots before he can even get his first ling. safer way for the zerg is to get a 1-2 spines assisted by couple lings before roaches can come out

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Added on May 18, 2010, 5:20 pm1) did zerg player attempted to box instead of just atk move/atk specific? (refer war3 hero killings wwwwww)
because zergling speed > zealot by a notch with or without upgrades from both sides (and hell if lings got speed upgrade, uncontested lol) so long that basic criteria is achieved (ling speed > zealot) a box is ALWAYS possible with or without the zealots stopping to attack. dont believe? try it yourself.
2) who is the zerg or rather, how much of a skill difference between whitera and that zerg?
3) if whitera is obviously just kiting, why didnt zerg pulled back, or skip pass the zealots to proceed on a worker harass?
4) do you know, that when ur doing all those fancy micro, you do take out a bit of your base building/micro/econ? while unit queues are no problems by hotkeying them, other aspects like placing a god damn pylon/depot/spirewarrenden etc would be hindered a bit
5) *drum rolls*
what is your latency in comparison to theirs?



This post has been edited by Quazacolt: May 18 2010, 05:20 PM

- zpux vs ace stream you linked, by all means, zpux aint bad, but see how bad he lost that match, get what i mean?
- as mentioned: pull back, gather more and take out the zealots
- as mentioned again: hotkey/keybinding works, however you cannot base build with it and you'd take a couple of seconds (which is crucial on complicated micros) off at least to make a depot for example and those few seconds is more than enough to cause a blunder
- then obviously not good enough as assumingly, you're in malaysia and in malaysia no matter what vpn/battleping/fibreoptic/corporate line/uni line you're using, you're on AT LEAST ~200ish ms latency which is not enough in a lot of situations as opposed to the top players you idolizes so much that typically plays at sub 100ms. case in point: a nice psi-storm on your zerg forces

exactly, hence you "not lagging" is really far fetched when it comes to higher level micro management. as a matter of fact for me, ive tend to adopt a play style that doesnt rely on micromanagement as much (thank god it aint war3 lol) like avoiding units such as templars/infestors (f*** the hive upgrade, stupid pre-req lol)/ravens and so forth. and to an extent, avoid using melees and favor ranged such as stalkers/roaches

dont get me wrong though, i am by no means saying such play styles is good and in fact it isnt as i am not utilizing everything a race can offer. just that im better off playing something less frustrating, and in a way, more effective to cope with the lag. in a slight off topic WoW speak: mutilate over shadowdance spec thanks to latency

=edit=
lol noticed im missing 2 words in the sentence

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: May 19 2010, 10:52 AM

dreaded patch 11 you mean? wwww

like i said, if ur uni is in msia, no matter how awesome superbly good the line is, it will still be on a bare minimum ~200 latency due to distance

hell, i dont even use vpn/tunnel on my WoW and the latency's 300-400. thats good, however just not enough for some higher level micros in sc2 (or war3, for that matter)

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Added on May 19, 2010, 2:51 pmas for kiting, i use move > s

move > atk + a = 1 more keypress of a + click = unneeded 'lag'

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: May 19 2010, 02:51 PM

spamming psi storm, gravitron beams, individual blinks etc. just examples

also units are auto aggressive, if you stop, things run, they will chase so long they have initial proximity. example: put an idle zealot, and have a hostile worker run by it wwwwww

stalkers are not able to atk while moving, btw. they need to stop for a brief moment, then they will fire. you may experiment this by spamming move on ur stalker non stop. phoenixes on the other hand are buffed to be able to do just that.

and they say SMM is expensive. guess someone beat them in being evil

well, ive been playing war3 a lot back then and achieved pretty high rankings too with like 60+% winrate of over 700-800 games IINM
and no matter what you'll be at a disadvantage like it or not. the whole psi storm over a MMM/zerg army knowing that you got ur ass handed due to that mere 200 ms latency, is just lol.

my profile is still up btw, on US East bnet with the same name. win % dropped a ton cuz ive been playing now and then in between WoW/other games and with me totally out of shape for war3, the result isnt pleasant at all

200-400 is the lowest id ever get, and thats without vpn, with vpn also id doubt itd help that much as distance latency is distance latency. and some times, its cuz of these really minor issues that could cause you your game. DEATH COILING CORPSES YOOOOOO yes im mainly an undead player and plays best with UD though i play random lol

lol, me and vls have a 17-6 record. we started out as bronze (how the hell we ended up there is still quite a mystery lol) and climbed alllllll the way to gold league. promote x2 in a night ROFL

all in all: good game.

speaking of rank, while me and vls are in the silvers, we got -1 rank LOL overshot the threshold ady

whatisthisidonteven.jpg

TONIGHT 3V3/4V4 WHO WANTS IN? LOL

UDP is enabled to help improve game performance. <-- LOWER LATENCY WHOOO (remember OLD sc1/bnet? using udp? yeah)

- sentries
HAHAHAHAHA

- voidrays
LOL

- marines
YEAH I ALWAYS GET COMBAT/STIM THIS IS WIN

- zerg
wtf spell changes, overseer being useful, infestor frenzy wtf? ultralisk lol

well, less op against small fries, and not so sucky against bigger pew pew units XD (cough immortals cough)

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Added on May 21, 2010, 2:26 pmi was hoping that it already has, or by tonight, lol

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: May 21 2010, 02:26 PM