hired a maid just to shake your chair

My imagination is going WILD

I think u r confusing audio industry with AV industry. Audio industry is to recreate the sounds that u hear in the studio environment. That said, musical instruments that go below 30Hz is only the pipe organ.

The AV industry is to recreate the ambiance of being in the movie. Thus the effects that come with 25Hz and below is tactile and shd be included.

A good sub will be able to reproduce the original recording that was made to recreate the ambiance of the scene that it depicts. So if the director made the movie with content lower than 25Hz why shd they when reproducing for home theater deprive us of the content?

i knew from the moment i posted there will be flaming, so lets keep the discussion channels open...

true, audio industry is quite different from 'AV' industry, and therefore I speak from personal point of view.

But, the equipment may not differ so much and putting into consideration, even mid range equipment cannot properly output sub 25Hz signals (personally it tickles me fancy when people consider it as 'da room shakers' or 'window movers', flame flame)

You could end up 70% of the end-users producing harmonics rather than fundamentals, and get complaints instead in the community forums...so its like a lose-lose situation,in which then I will choose the lesser of the evils.

When users complain like this we usually count how many who don't complaint and assume them satisfied...but hey I don't work for 20th cent. fox

I guess when involved the purists, they treat 'lossless' as include the noise, but it has to stop at some point because audio engineers still need to treat, design, work on the recordings they get from the studios. At what point do we say lossless when we factor in the work that needs to be done there?

---

Added on May 4, 2010, 6:13 pmThe director (James cameron or Peter Jackson in this case) doesn't really make the call what kind of sounds or noises that is included, its up to the audio engineering and sound director. That guy / guys could well have decided the sub 25Hz sounds are unintended or isn't part of their design, and hence took it out.

Don't go crazy when you see a graph of before and after / with or without, just listen to the thing and judge

I'm really sorry if the subs of the elites have no work to do....lets inject 10-25Hz +10dB whenever you see something close and see if it improves your viewing experience.

This post has been edited by lee82gx: May 4 2010, 06:13 PM

My personal opinion is when I listen to music, I want to ensure that my system (and the room) within limitations do not provide me with "fake" sounds. However, as a sound engineer I think u would agree that humans tend to prefer a bass heavy mix (a house curve that has the lower ends slightly boosted, ie house curve)

When I watch movies, if the director intended to "shake" the room when viewed in theaters, the mix shd include that in the bd/dvd. Whether I have a system capable of recreating the experience is a different matter.

Most won't complain, however sometimes minority voices do make a difference.

I agree that a sound/mixing engineer needs to do extra work to ensure that the mix that he is creating for home use is as the theatrical edition, however, they should not deprive us by making the decision for us.

In my opinion, its nothing to do with purists or audiophile, the question is why was the home edition mixed differently from the theatrical editions.

On tactile portion of HT, some people do dig it and go out of their way to ensure that they have the tactile portion covered with things like butt-shaker and recently, Earthquake came up with a dedicated tactile sub to be placed behind the listener. I guess, its their opinion.

But he approved of the edition, correct? I believe he was personally involved in this case for the home edition release.

BTW : My sub does not go below 25Hz, but I still do not agree with them cutting off at 25Hz!

Also, there are some scenes from some movies that the low ends actually are pretty loud and I have to say when viewed in rooms where there are better subs than mine, the tactile feel is real. Its not shaking and stuff, but the bass buildup on some of the scenes actually enhances the viewing. One such scene is the tunner scene in Die Hard 4.

some like it LOUD, some like it SMOOTH, some just want to WATCH!

be it what ever the someone choose, let the same original soundtrack without filter go with the disc...not that the storage is not enough (but I think Avatar just ngam ngam nia ), just let the end-suer choose how he wanted his setup to sound....and not decided by some sound engineers

given the choice, i too would go for unfiltered sound track, but knowing that most people who don't actually the equipment to do so may end up spoiling their experience by unintended intent (if there is such a phrase) I'd still willingly do it for the user...its like people complaining about power limiter in sports cars etc...many makers still implement them in their models (for the good of the uneducated)

maybe they can add some bonus tracks with super LFE lol..

For a normal end viewer like me, I do find the AQ a bit flat and less punchy when watching Avatar, really feel something is missing with its sound. Now I know why

My humble opinion is. Freq < than 25hz is really low and usually made the content larger without providing enough benefits. The 25hz-50hz can give you tsunami in your home already. Usually this freq range only can be felt rather than heard. Further more, in a movie.. how many < 25hz can be reproduced or needed. By putting a filter there, you can actually cut down some unwanted noise that could impact the overall size of the movie. Well, I'm speaking on music reproduction only. Usually I put high pass filter at 40hz in the song I made. Also, a 20kHz filter also help to removed those unwanted high freq- at least in music reproduction. my 2 cents.

like this then something wrong with your setup already..
i dont feel it is flat even got filter

Imagine Terminator Salvation with 25Hz filter . The huge robot at 7-Eleven scene would probably sound puny when it stomp the ground w/o enough bass weight and feel .

IMHO, Sherlock Holmes' AQ is better than Avatar. What they produce for the theater should have been left 'unmolested' for the BD release, just like what anfieldude pointed out. We want to watch and listen to the exact same thing in the comfort of our home. BD is aint cheap. So, I do feel 'shortchanged'.

I also do not own an elite HT system but yet I want to feel what an explosion should be felt like and not firecrackers. TDK, Hulk, TS, Kung Fu Panda, DH 4.0, Hellboy II and a quite a number of it have impressive LFE. The Avatar reminds me of Indy Jones 4.0 crappy AQ . So much so for lossless audio .

Anfieldude, James Cameron is involved in the audio mixing.

u can download those 25hz sample pink noise or file from the web or even 30hz, 40hz and 50hz.... I thinks if those freq play at -6db.. wow, that can be an explotion... already.. dont need less than 25hz. I remeber downloaded a sample of pink noise player, played it trhu my PC and input via L/R niah to my Yamaha AVR. but play it as low as 20hz to 50hz.. crank the volume.. feel like my house got BIG HUGE Vibrator on it.. whuaa ha ha ha. u guys try lah. from this, you can experiment the freq lower than 25hz and see if you can feel anything he he he he its going to be a very large wave to be created... whuaa ha ha ha

maybe one of the reason they put the filter is to make sure everyone still goes to movie theater to enjoy the best audio and pay for the blockbuster tickets. then buy another copy of DVD or BD for home use.
But unfortunately, in Malaysia, we do not have a cinema that can produce good PQ/AQ like those in HongKong, USA, Europe, or maybe our next door country "Singapore".

In East Msia, I've given up hope for cinema and cineplex here. Even our newest cinema "MBO" gives us crappy PQ and AQ 80% of the time. I've been there 4 times so far, everytime i went, there will always be problem with projected images like vertical black lines, broken surround speakers that kicks in whenever if feels like kicking in, bass that sounds like the ah beng cheapo home made sub from cow skin or some sort.

I'm buying BD like most of you here in lyn n expect to get good PQ/AQ but now a "filter" to cut us off?

What is the benefit of putting in a filter? just to protect those LG, Samsung or Sony brands HTiB from blowing the sub??

...really disappointed.

I have the necessary disc to generate such tones from realtraps.com

Sorry if this sounds offensive to you

Have you ever watch the Die Hard 4.0 tunnel scene? It was reported that it dives to a low 8Hz when the car flipped . I used to own well-known and highly popular American 12" sub which I got it for abt RM2.5K. The sub can create the rumble but it has limitation and roll-off around 30Hz.

Enter my new sub that can go as low as 10Hz. Never bother to set it at that level since the distortion is relatively high. Set it at 15Hz. It brings a whole lot of difference when it could hit that low .

Just like Kung Fu Panda's wushu finger hold scene. You can feel the power of it. I just want my BD investment to have this kind of LFE and not those 25Hz filter (that's just me). Say when an explosion goes off in real life, I wonder whether it only hits 25Hz and that's it . My apology as I am not good in explaining a scenario

I could be wrong about all this sound engineering thingy as I am not a sound engineer neither that I am well verse in sound tech .

Your view and comment would be particularly good here as well as in avsforum.com esp in BD thread . There are a bunch of film mixers and sound engineers there debating about the 25Hz filter with end users. Somehow, it looks like a losing debate for the engineers as to why it was being filtered for HT and not a direct transfer from theater version. The main point of the whole debate is about lossless audio, which bring 'realism' to our home. IMHO, 25Hz filter is not and I would say it a gazillion times that these studios shortchanged us. Simple as that. IIRC, most of the DVDs (if not all) pre-BD era aint have a 25Hz filter

IMO, the 25Hz filter in a movie can only affects a fraction of ppl particularly those own a good quality sub that can dig low below 20Hz or even to single digit LFE. You should know what certain sub brands are we talking about. To another group of ppl, this may be irrelevant or not bother to care a thing as 25Hz is considered quite low enuf to hear the slam.

As far as lossless audio is concerned, alternating or filtering out at any frequency is against its objective, or you may call it compression of audio. Again, this phrase will be supported hotly by those capable sub owners like certain brands... . But why not, since we have invested in a good sub so basically will want it to perform to the peak.



On another note, we did not notice our long-lived sifu, htkaki in LYN has obtained 10k club status, did we??. Counting the star is total of 8....wow Some taikos here can onli reach 7 stars. I am only half-baked compare to these elites.

---

Added on May 4, 2010, 11:26 pmOh yea, the Die Hard 4.0 when the car flips over. You can just simply 'feel' not hear the LFE hits against your chest or even your heart, and follow up by a kind of wind feel in your hall. Never thought it is mixed at 8Hz....scary enuf.






This post has been edited by mikapoh: May 4 2010, 11:26 PM

I think TS is a music lover. I have a music setup which dont involve a sub as it sounds funny.LOL. My HT, well a good sub is a must.

Its a whole different scene.

Watch a single colour movie...........with your maid.......

Would that colour be blue?

It is not totally flat but compared to AQ from Transformer 2, it is a bit flat to my taste.