@karwaidotnet: I've fed Addiction's canned food with good results for my adult mutt. Bf's sheltie sheds when on it though (hardly sheds when on Innova canned food). For the kibble I've fed the Kangaroo & Apple variety, adult mutt didn't seem to like the taste (he would eat grudginglylah, compared to Orijen where he'll happily eat). Pooped more and shed more. Ingredients-wise I'd rate their canned food really well, the kibble above average. Only fed Addiction kibble once since my mutt didn't like the taste so not sure what the price range is now, but at the time I bought it it cost significantly less than Orijen, Acana and Innova.

Also fed Acana to same dog, can't remember which type I fed but it had grain in it. He pooped a lot more, smellier too. This dog's tolerance for food with grain is especially bad so I just eliminate grain from his diet altogether. Some people's dogs do really well on it though.

Haha likewise, it's always great meeting someone who's really passionate about the wellbeing of their pets! Good to know you find Science Plan's prescription diet for dogs with kidney issues is an exception to their generally crappy food, the elderly dog I'm fostering w kidney issues might have to give that a try if her 2nd blood test results don't improve after a month on medication + reduced protein diet. Really really hope it doesn't come to that as she's quite a picky eater, laaaawd help me if I have to regress to force-feeding her like in the beginning =_=;;

As far as I understand from vet friends and reading up on commercial pet food, the main reason Science Plan/Hill's is so ubiquitous in vet practices is because they've got a lot of sponsorships/dealerships with vet schools (here's a lengthy article which mentions this for those of you interested in reading). The relationship continues when vets open their own practices and hook up with Hill's for lucrative dealerships. Same deal for breeders. I can only guess a lot of local pet shops push Hill's because the profit margin is really good (considering there are other crappy foods they can push but walk into a pet shop, act clueless and ask what's a good quality pet food and chances are the salesperson will direct you to the aisle with those oh so familiar shiny white bags of Science Plan kibble). I've had to shut my mouth often and stop myself from giving shoppers unsolicited advice when I overhear a salesperson tell innocently clueless shopper #214 how great Science Plan is. >_>

And yeah, thankfully there are good vets out there who are honest about what food to get or stock better quality selections. Can really empathise with you on encountering vets who prescribe Science Plan for everything under the sun (ringworm? srsly? lol). Parvo, picky eater, skin problems, mild infection - oh hey here's this really good prescription diet, I'm not going to justify or explain why it's good, trust me I'm a vet! (I'm a bit of a prat when interacting with not-so-great vets and clueless pet shop salespeople, I feign ignorance to see what kind of BS they feed me )


Wow, that really sucks. Orijen isn't made by Natura though. Hill's is owned by Colgate-Palmolive AFAIK.

Anyway P & G's acquisition's still a blow to me, I really like Natura's Innova/EVO/California Natural lines. What happens really depends on how much operational independence Natura retains after the acquisition. AP reported "Procter & Gamble said the acquisition gives it access to the holistic and naturals pet food segment, which will complement its existing Iams and Eukanuba brands." So it looks as if P & G is basically looking to own a line of "good" pet food alongside its crappy IAMS/Eukanuba lines so they've got both segments of the market covered - wouldn't make sense for them to mess with the good thing Natura's already got going.

Currently they claim to perform humane, non-invasive animal testing (@ What type of testing does Natura do?. If P & G's involvement is going to change that or if I see ingredient changes for the worse, adios.

Hi all Sifus here, since this thread is discussing bout kibble, i have a.question here, is Addiction Dalmon Bleau Puppy good for a 4 month min.schnauzer? Following are some basic info about this kibble...

Ingredients:
Salmon Meal, Potatoes, Chicken Fat (Free from Chicken Protein and naturally preserved with Mixed Tocopherols - a source of Vitamin E), Whole Smoked Salmon, Dried Blueberries, Dried Cranberries, Dried Raspberries, Calcium Carbonate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Kelp Meal, Flaxseed Meal, Calcium Propionate, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin E, Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Niacin(Vitamin B3), D-Pantothenic Acid (Vitamin B5), Thiamine (Vitamin B1), Vitamin A, Pyridoxine(Vitamin B6), Biotin (Vitamin B7), Folic Acid(Vitamin B9), Vitamin B12, Vitamin D3, Glucosamine.

Guaranteed analysis:
Crude Protein - (min) 28%
Crude Fat - (min) 14%
Crude Fibre - (max) 3%
Moisture - (max) 10%
Enterococcus faecium - 70 million CFU / lb
Lacotabacillus acidophilus - 100 million CFU / lb

I personnaly think that the overall ingredients are good and it is grain free, and salmon is good for the scnauzer as this breed can easily have skin problem.

I need to get other opinion or comment on this kibble, anyone can help?

Chicken oil is a so so ingredient right? I tot a real good dog food shouldnt use any animal oil?

Btw, i used to feed Inova Evo to my dog, although the protein is kinda high but he is ok with it, but it's kinda heaty... Stools are dry cracked, fur are rough.. And then i found out now! and go!...tried both and now i'm using go! Duck formula.. works really well on both of my dog... fur smoothier..less smelly stools..and nice stool color and texture..

These are the link for ingredients and info of the dog food:
http://www.petcurean.com/index.php?page_id=204
http://www.petcurean.com/index.php?page_id=179

Is oat good for dog? Coz i see there is oat ingredient in Go! Duck formula..

Oatmeal is very good fiber source for dog, it helps a lot in digestion and good for those who have sensitive stomach.

@karwaidotnet
Acana doesn't have any bad ingredients in it. I am a little wary about using food with very high meat content for dogs that don't have heavy exercise schedules (by heavy i mean working dogs and sled dogs that do a lot of strenuous activity every day) as they don't need so much protein. On the analyisis you provided they only gave the dry wight analysis (remove the moisture and that is what you have left) which is why the protein is at 36%. I only really deal with kibbles so don't remember off hand what dry weight numbers are good and bad. Checked on the Acana website and the Grasslands protein content is listed at 32% which compared to the 25ish% percent that i would advise for normally active dogs is very high. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as excess protein isn't converted to fat but it can put a strain on the kidneys if they are already damaged. For this one i would say it is a pretty great food ingredients wise, but maybe not necessarily the best choice for a normal house pet with a normal level of activity due to the high protein content (although you can be sure all the protein in there comes from great sources) . If your dog does well using Acana then by all means stick with it, but just keep an eye out (especially later in life) for signs of kidney issues and switch to a lower protein food if any do develop. The only major side effect i have heard to feeding (a healthy dog) high protein foods is softer stool so *shrugs*

Orijen is pretty much the same as Acana but with an even higher protein content (40% for the regular adult variety). So again i would say not a bad food ingredients wise but probably not the best choice for a dog with a normal pet lifestyle. I did find this about

So for your question about high protein levels, it isn't necessarily good or bad. It depends on the activity level of your dog. There was a study that i read about quite a while ago that stated that high protein levels causes kidney damage which is where the high protein = bad theory came from, however the research was apparently done on rats not dogs and since then there has been further studies done that shows very high protein levels doesn't affect (normal healthy) dog kidneys in the same manner it did the rats. However i still prefer to stay away from high protein foods for dogs with normal activity levels as there are great foods out there that have a more acceptable protein content.

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Added on May 7, 2010, 4:32 pm@^4ever_Fan+a5y^
The Addiction formula you posted looks fine to me. I have already stated my personal (although still totally unjustified) opinion about Addiction so will put that aside. The protein level is what you would expect to see in a Puppy formula and the ingredients used all appear to be good quality, healthy ingredients. One small worry for me is that the Chicken Fat is the third ingredient where i would usually expect to see a second meat but i don't think it would really cause any problems.
It is also interesting to note that Enterococcus faecium and Lacotabacillus acidophilus are listed in the guarantee (they are both good bacteria cultures that help keep the stomach flora healthy) which means they are found in one of the listed ingredients (this is a good thing rather than the Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product listed as an ingredient in some not so great foods which suggest the left over bits from extracting these bacteria).

Oats are (as eric138 stated) a good source of fiber so is a good ingredient (as long as it is balanced out with good meats and other ingredients). Usually if you see oats listed as an ingredient you can be sure that the food is at least half decent as they are quite an expensive 'filler' and not so good foods would opt for something cheaper .

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Added on May 7, 2010, 4:33 pm
@eric138
I'm assuming you mean Chicken fat which is seen in a lot of dog foods (generally found around the 5th ingredient). It is a great source of linoleic acid and Omega-6 fatty acid. As of yet i haven't seen any indication that it has any negative points about it so i generally class it as a decent ingredient, you can't take the presence of Chicken fat to mean that a dog food is fantastic but i wouldn't take it as an indication of a bad food either.

You already know that i prefer go! to now! but here is my explanation . Although now! has a lot more veggies in it (which in today's market is often a sign of a well made food) it only has one meat in the top 5 ingredients whereas go! has 2. However the protein content of now! is quite a lot higher (now! is 26%, go! is 22%) so based on that i would prefer now!.

At the end of the day, they are both good foods in their own right so it is more personal preference that sways me more towards go!.
To pick out a few ingredients, they both contain kelp which is a great ingredient and now! has broccoli which is a known anti-carcinogen. Canola oil and Flax-seed are considered decent ingredients and a lot of dog foods are starting to use a lot of berries which seem to do well with most dogs.

From what i can tell go! follows a more traditional dog food formula with much of the ingredients list consisting of (i'm assuming) manufactured or extracted vitamins and minerals whereas now! is following the more recent (and i suppose currently more popular?) formula which uses a lot of fruits, vegetable and berries to make up the majority of the nutritional content. I would say both styles have their benefits and drawbacks so as long as the nutritional analysis is sound, they are both acceptable as good foods.


This post has been edited by Divas: May 7 2010, 04:33 PM

Hello there... I'm neither an expert nor have done much reserch on dog kibbles. but i'm working on it now.

I have three brands in mind which i wud love to get more insights and dearly valued response from the pioneers in lyn. So here they are.

1) Nature's plan
2) Pro performance
3) Best choice

Thanks in advance. Appreciate all the time and effort spent on this thread. Way to go!

This post has been edited by moe81: May 7 2010, 05:11 PM

@byaku-chan

Thanks for the Science Plan article, will be reading it shortly. Good luck with your kidney problem foster, sending healing thoughts.

My favorite thing to do when i am in a bad mood is to pop into a pet shop and act clueless!! My business partner does the same thing . She once got offered Calcium supplements because they didn't have Glucosamine.
I have also been told that Science Plan is very nutritious and that the only thing you can't feed dogs is chocolate (when i specifically asked about Onions and Raisins they said that they are both safe for dogs)... I quietly correct them and also have to try very hard to keep my mouth shut when i hear bad advice being given.

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Added on May 7, 2010, 6:06 pm@moe81
Nature's Plan is a decent food, the top 5 (Natural Chicken, Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, Oat Groats, Rice Flour) are all fine. If i was to nit pick i would prefer that the Chicken Meal was 1st and Natural Chicken was second (as 'natural chicken' will have a much much higher water content (therefore less chicken which = less protein and minerals etc) and would prefer whole oats to oat groats, however that is by no means to say it is a bad food. The protein is within normal levels for a good food, although the fat is a little higher than i am used to seeing i think, it isn't high enough to cause obesity in a normally active dog.
All in all i don't have any issues with Nature's Plan, it is nothing fancy, nothing special but an all round decent food.

Pro Plan on the other hand (I'm assuming this is what you mean by Pro Performance as it is all that came up on Google, if not please give me an ingredients list and nutritional analysis) is not so great. I have pulled up the ingredients for their Performance Formula (in case you were looking at this one specifically).

Top 5 ingredients for Pro Plan Performance are... Chicken, Corn Gluten Meal, Brewers Rice, Animal fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), poultry by product meal.

Within those top 5 there is 1 ingredient that is considered ok which is the Chicken but even that is nothing spectacular.
So here is what is wrong with the rest:
Corn Gluten Meal is a byproduct of corn which is also used as a natural herbicide. It is edible but as it comes from corn also has the allergenic properties that normal corn has.
Brewers Rice is milled fragments of rice which is a by product of milled rice. It is lacking a lot of the nutritional content that normal rice contains.
Animal Fat can contain the fat of any animal (that produces meat for consumption so usually pig, cow, sheep). So this is an unstable ingredient that will mean the makeup of each batch produced is different.
Poultry by product meal... is one of the worst ingredients you can possible ask for. Not only is it a mixed source (the same idea as animal fat, coming from a number of different animals) but it is also byproducts which is the left over bits after the usable meat has been removed. We are talking feet, beaks, internal organs and such. This is a double bad if the animals they have been taken from were given chemical (steroids, antibiotics etc) as they will be all stored up in the kidneys which then go into your dog food... tasty.

Other notable ingredients in the mix are 2 more corn based ingredients (whole grain corn, corn bran), and Animal Digest which is (as defined by the AAFCO) "material which results from chemical and/or enzymatic hydrolysis of clean and undecomposed animal tissue." Basically pre-digested meat from multiple sources.

Also too much protein and too much fat (30% and 20%).

In summary really really crappy food. I also took a quick look at their "Shredded Blend Natural" range. I'm afraid it is pretty much the same thing: brewers rice, animal fat, animal digest and corn products everywhere.

I couldn't find the ingredients list for Best choice anywhere on the web (except a German site that might have been an ingredients list but i don't read German so couldn't tell :S ) so if you have it post it up and i'll have a look .

(p.s- oh gosh i am no expert either!! when i am looking at a food and see an ingredient that i am not sure what it is, i wack it in google and there is usually a wikipedia explanation of what it is, from there i can make an informed decision about its value in dog food or do more research to see what has been said and what it is used for. I also found a great site a while ago that had the full list of AAFCO definitions for dog food ingredients that helped me a lot, but i haven't been able to find it since, if i do will post it up.)

This post has been edited by Divas: May 7 2010, 06:21 PM

i bought orijen...so let's see how it goes wif my pup...

Divas,

Just out of curiousity, for a dog that gets say about a 45-60 minutes walk each day and is happy to laze around the house for the rest of the day with the occasional play and mental training. How much percentage of protein would be good and how much would be too much?

For myself, I keep an eye on their weight, if it goes up, I cut the food down, if it goes down or the dog is hungrier than usual, then I feed a bit more.

I think theres no fixed 'formula' to do this, you gotta observe since diff dogs might need a different food/amounts, just like people.

I would consider that to be the normal amount of exercise that a house dog should get. So for a puppy or adult i would feed something with a protein level of around 25% (anything in the range of 22% to 28% would be fine but i would personally stick as close to 25% as possible).

For older dogs that starting to wear down, perhaps not walking as fast or playing as vigorously i would use a food with a lower protein level (closer to 22%) to give their kidneys a lower workload.

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Added on May 8, 2010, 7:02 pmDefinitely, if you are talking about the amount of food, you will always need to adjust the amount depending on how much your individual dog needs and what brand you are feeding.
But when looking at protein levels it is slightly harder and most protein doesn't get stored as fat but simply gets filtered out in the kidneys and then flushed out in the waste. Dogs who have average exercise levels therefore need a food with average protein levels (as long as they are healthy normal dogs) whereas dogs with very heavy exercise loads need a lot of protein (just like human body builders who need a higher level of protein in their diet to do what they do).

You are right that there is no fixed formula, but there are good general guidelines that will usually point to the right range of protein percentage for different activity levels.

This post has been edited by Divas: May 8 2010, 07:03 PM

@Divas

Here i've got the ingredients list for the brand "Best Choice"

ingredients:
poultry meal, corn, corn flour, rice flour, poultry fat, beef fibres, linseed, fish, yeast, dried whole egg, vitamins, mineral components, FOS, L-carnitine, hydrolysed cartilage(source of chondroitin, hydrolysed crustaceans(source of glucosamine)

contents:
raw protien- 26%, raw fat- 16%, raw fibres- 2.5%, raw ash- 6.0%, moisture- 8.0%, calcium- 1.2%, phosphor- 0.9%, omega6- 3%, omega3- 0.7%


lookin at the ingredient i can already speculate what u gon say bout this brand. but let's just hear it. i love how you put it in ur own way.

hi, I just switched to Natural Balance Sweet Potato & Fish 2 weeks ago. My pup has healthy poo (not smelly) and healthy coat.

What I'm concerned with is the protein level 21% too low for my 3 month old toy poodle pup? She gets daily walk of 30 minutes and 90 minutes during weekend with several plays and mental exercise throughout the day.

Natural Balance Sweet Potato & Fish
Crude Protein 21.0% minimum
Crude Fat 10.0% minimum
Crude Fiber 3.0% maximum
Moisture 10.0% maximum
Calcium 1.0% minimum
Phosphorus 0.9% minimum
Omega-3 Fatty Acids 0.5% minimum
Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) 0.01% minimum
Omega-6 Fatty Acids 2.0% minimum

I feed her this brand coz it's hypo-allergenic. My dog tend to scratch and bite her paws and I suspested she has food allergy and I ceased feeding her chicken. I'm wondering if Addiction or Orijen would be better for her because they have more meat as ingredient compare to Natural Balance that uses more potatoes than meat. But I'm worrying too much protein would be bad for her as toy poodle has weak stomach generally and I just switched food 2 weeks ago, don't know if I should slowly switch her to another brand again.

I hate the fact that she is not getting the best food available. NB rated with 4 stars at dog food analysis.
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_re.../cat/all/page/5

This post has been edited by sherly: May 11 2010, 02:54 PM

yup you guessed it, not a good food:
The major reason poultry is used by a lot of dog food companies is because it is much cheaper than individual meat products like chicken, or turkey. As the well known saying goes; Good things don't come cheap, Cheap things don't come good.
Secondly we have corn and corn flour. Because the second 2 ingredients are corn based ingredients means there is probably more corn in the food than there is Poultry (crappy meat is better than not meat).
Add in the rice flour (a ok ingredient on its own) and you start to get the impression that this dog food is shaping up to be more a bag of flavored flour pressed into kibble shapes... yummy.

Interestingly there are also a couple of ingredients that i don't remember seeing in kibble before: Beef fibers (i'm not sure i even know what this is) and Yeast.
After some research i didn't manage to find any info on Beef fibers in dog food. I am assuming that it is something to do with muscle tissue from cows (as muscle is made up of fibers).
As for yeast. I couldn't find anything definite about yeast specifically but i did find this really great site that lists a lot of things you don't want to see in dog food as well as a description of what it is and why it is bad. I would assume raw yeast or its products in dog food would unbalance the bacterial culture in the stomach and intestines.

Finally the fact that the vitamins and minerals are not listed separately but simply lumped into one general ingredient is never a good sign.

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Added on May 11, 2010, 6:20 pm
I would definitely say 21% protein is way to low for a 3month old.

What brand were you feeding her when she started to chew her paws? This is a symptom of food allergies but for a puppy so young to have severe food allergies and in fact food allergies in dogs of any age are in fact very rare. I'm guessing she came from a pet shop?

I wouldn't switch up to a food with a very high protein level right away as the sudden increase in protein could be a shock to the system in any breed. Try using a food with a moderate protein level (around 25%) as well as one with a good ingredients list.

I also wouldn't say that poodles have weak stomachs, they are generally pretty hardy little dogs.

Remember that you need to keep feeding one brand of food for at least 6 months to get a accurate read on whether it is good or bad for your dog. If your dog seems to have a bad reaction to a food that should be good for them, keep them on it to see if they are just reacting to toxins from previous foods working their way out of your dogs systems.
(Of course if your dog has severe vomiting, skin rashes/lesions or any other condition that is threatening their well being and health switch food immediately (after checking with a vet that something else isn't causing the symptoms) rather than continue with the trial).

One last unrelated thing: Has your puppy completed all of her puppy vaccinations? if not you shouldn't be taking her to places where other dogs go. (Wait until 2 weeks after the final puppy vaccination to be safe). Also with toy breeds i would say 90 minutes is quite a lot of walking for a pup, i would cut back a bit at least until she is older and spend more time on mental stimulation and play type exercise.

This post has been edited by Divas: May 11 2010, 06:36 PM

Hi, was feeding her sportman's pride given by pet shop previously. Yup, she came from a pet shop and I was told she was on this brand of food after her weaning.

I will continue feeding NB for a few months to check on her reaction then.

She hasn't completed all her vaccinations. But I only walk her in secluded area and didn't let her sniff on anything. Yeah, I'm aware of the risk involved.
90 minutes is the longest we walk her on weekend, we split it into 2-3 short sessions.

I was actually encouraged by a US trained dog trainer last weekend to socialize my puppy by bringing her to friend's and family homes to expose to new people and healthy vaccinated dogs. She said it would be too late if u wait until all vaccines are done as the first 4 months of puppy's life is critical stage for its social development.

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Added on May 11, 2010, 6:20 pm
I would definitely say 21% protein is way to low for a 3month old.

What brand were you feeding her when she started to chew her paws? This is a symptom of food allergies but for a puppy so young to have severe food allergies and in fact food allergies in dogs of any age are in fact very rare. I'm guessing she came from a pet shop?

I wouldn't switch up to a food with a very high protein level right away as the sudden increase in protein could be a shock to the system in any breed. Try using a food with a moderate protein level (around 25%) as well as one with a good ingredients list.

I also wouldn't say that poodles have weak stomachs, they are generally pretty hardy little dogs.

Remember that you need to keep feeding one brand of food for at least 6 months to get a accurate read on whether it is good or bad for your dog. If your dog seems to have a bad reaction to a food that should be good for them, keep them on it to see if they are just reacting to toxins from previous foods working their way out of your dogs systems.
(Of course if your dog has severe vomiting, skin rashes/lesions or any other condition that is threatening their well being and health switch food immediately (after checking with a vet that something else isn't causing the symptoms) rather than continue with the trial).

One last unrelated thing: Has your puppy completed all of her puppy vaccinations? if not you shouldn't be taking her to places where other dogs go. (Wait until 2 weeks after the final puppy vaccination to be safe). Also with toy breeds i would say 90 minutes is quite a lot of walking for a pup, i would cut back a bit at least until she is older and spend more time on mental stimulation and play type exercise.

[/quote]

This post has been edited by sherly: May 11 2010, 10:58 PM

Yes i agree with this, if you know a dog is fully vaccinated and healthy thena social visit is fine. But this is very different to walking in a public space where you don't know the condition of the dogs who have traveled through.

As long as you are careful it is up to you to decide. I'm just uber paranoid at the moment with all the threads people have been posting about their puppy getting Parvo/Distemper.

Haha me too, want my dog to get exercised else she will get restless but also scared she will will pick up disease. Good thing is I work from home, I can keep an eye on her all day, will rush her to vet on any sign of illness.

Yeah, gotta be very cautious.

This post has been edited by sherly: May 12 2010, 12:35 PM

Which pet stores do you guys recommend for giving a good price for dried dog food in PJ area? Need to restock and want to switch out of Ishkan for a lower protein food for the old dog

i noticed her urine has become more yellowish and smell more ammonia.

she poops considerable more and it's soft. and SMELLY.
luckily in the morning - my nose kinda stuck but still the smell is like sh1t. LOL


at first she kinda poop like machinegun - she'll poop the first large one, then some minor2 one around the area. as most of it is soft, so it's kinda messy and smelly to clean up.

this morning - i think it's improving oredi in the sense 1 large poop and just 1 small poop nearby. still smelly.

good thing is - i dont notice her vomitting anymore. i can only now hope her poop will improve.

This post has been edited by karwaidotnet: May 17 2010, 11:08 AM