Which is a better food for dog?

This post has been edited by genjo: Dec 14 2010, 02:15 PM

neither.
Find a brand that contains no corn, by-products, sugar or artificial flavoring. Then you will probably have a good food.

any brand to suggest?

orijen, acana, natural balance etc etc....... there are so many good brands out there.
if budget constraints then go for blackwood. :-)

DON'T GO FOR BLACKWOOD... most of their ingredients lists start with Corn and Poultry By-products.. both very very bad ingedients. If you want something in that price range choose Health Foods.

The rest are ok. I would add Canidae and now! to that list. There are other good foods out there, just look at the ingredients.

tl; dr version: It's not worth scrimping on the quality of your dog's food, you risk chronic health problems and might end up paying more in vet bills in the long run.

Long version:
@TS: Do a search for the brands you're interested in at Dog Food Analysis to get a general idea. Even for premium brands usually rated among the best of the best like Orijen, Innova etc. don't necessarily suit all dogs for a variety of reasons (dog is allergic to certain kinds of meat/high levels of protein stress the kidneys esp older dogs and could cause shedding etc.). Generally try out brands from the mid to upper range and find out which food suits your dog best (anywhere from 2 weeks to 1 month to see effects).

If you're on a budget Avoderm is acceptable. Some dogs can't take avocado which is in its ingredients list tho, so be careful about that. I've also tried California Natural canned food with good results (cheaper than premium brands by RM2 per can) when I was looking for a good food with lower protein content to suit an elderly dog with kidney issues I'm fostering. Not sure about California Natural kibbles and pricing but they're available at Sea Park pet supplies in SS2.

As for Purina and Eukanuba, personally would never feed either brand to my dogs. Bad bad food with too much grain and additives, plus the company that makes Eukanuba/IAMS is well known for cruelty in animal testing (for the record I don't support PETA and never will, they're hypocritical jackasses but at least their immense publicity budget enables them to highlight animal cruelty cases).

You're probably going to get quite a few people telling you "but I fed my dog XYZ brand dog food (with crappy ingredients and harmful additives) for years and he/she was fine", but bear in mind that 1) Their dog could have been an exceptionally lucky genetic freak of nature (like my bf's first dog he had as a kid, he was fed whatever the family ate including harmful stuff that contained chocolate and lived up to 15 years lol), 2) Their dog was fine for the first few years of its life when it was still young and able to withstand a bad diet - then their digestive systems started failing when they got older/other diet-related problems came up but the owners blamed it on bad genes/other factors, 3) To paraphrase a quote from here: "My dog ate ______ lots of times and was fine, so ______ isn't bad food for dogs." That logic is no better than "My dog runs in the street all the time and has never been hit by a car, so dogs never get hit by cars."

omg... first brand i use is pro plan and now use half i buy eukanuba. I mix them together.... hahaha

i think wait till finish use first only change. hopefully nothing happened

keep this thread up!!!
how about pedigree and alpo??

i heard pedigree is a bad brand.... is it true?

One experience I have with Eukanuba is the poo is stinky! Not just my dog, but another friends dog also had really smelly poo on Eukanuba. On Science Plan the poo is very loose, and a lot, so it was hard to clean. Also quite smelly. Not very nice if your dog poos in the house, or you leave it in the garden for a whole day before you come home and clean it.

My dog was ok on Blackwood catfish and sweet potato, but I personally didn't like it because the food smelled weird and I was always worried it was going off (but its a dried food, shouldn't be off, but it just smelled weird).

I'm using a premium Korean brand called Ishkan now, its a bit pricy and not in the DogFoodAnalysis website, but the ingredients look ok (think it has rice or barley or something) with chicken. Theres no lamb version unfortunately.
Both dogs have really shiny coats on Ishkan, and both like it, even the picky eater will eat it. Dog poo is pretty good, firm, not too smelly and a small amount.
One thing is that it seems my sensitive and allergicky dog is doing better since I put her on Ishkan (now 2 months already), or the Ishkan+Blackwood Catfish diet(for 2-3 months before pure Ishkan). Shes not so itchy. But the petshop lady recommends this brand for long coat dogs since its high protein. Also to feed a bit less compared to the other brands

I tried Natural Balance, its ok too but my fussy dog has to mix it with canned food so its pretty expensive for me, and I can't find the 15 kilo packing here.

Pedigree and Alpo are the benchmark for bad dog foods. They are pretty much the worst of the worst as far as kibble is concerned. I don't think there is a single good ingredient in either of them. If i remember correctly the first ingredient for both of them is some kind of corn (Which means there is more corn in the food then anything else... basically its flour). They don't use single source whole meat proteins which makes the food unstable and (Pedigree definitly, not sure about Alpo) uses artificial coloring... do you really think your dog cares what color his food is?

@byaku-chan - Fantastically written, i agree with everything you said. Reading your post puts a big smile on my face knowing there are more people out there who actually take the time to look into what a dog really needs rather than just listen to what a pet shop/vet tells them.

@Sashan - Ishkan was introduced to me recently, i don't remember exactly what the ingredients are in the dog kibble but i know the cat version is excellent and produces similar results (shiny coat) as you have mentioned.
The Blackwood catfish thing is a relatively decent food, however i have major issues with the comapny itself. They started out making a food very similar in ingredients to Pedigree, put it in a shiny bag and sold it for the same price as super super premium foods. Then when they lost a bit of popularity because someone actually looked at the ingredients, they dropped the price but seemed to keep pretty much the same ingredients list. Then with the recent boom in sales of holistic and hypoallergenic food, woosh catfish and watever it is pops up, which conforms to the general public's knowledge of what is good and bad for dogs at the moment. I understand that dog food is big business, however i prefer to stick to companies that as a whole do their own research into what dogs need and produce foods with high quality ingredients from day 1.

I'm using Orijen but I find that My dog gets heaty with the food. She hardly poo after eating it so I buy another packet of 1st Choice pet food and mix with orijen lol. Yeah agreed with Sashan, my cousin feed her shih tzu with eukanuba and my god, the poo is very very very smelly. She switch to Blackwood and the food is not good too, according to her. I personally think that alpo and pedigree is rubbish? I once thought that Purina Pro Plan is a good brand but after listening to advice from LYN members last time, I found that the Pro Plan pet food is also rubbish lol.

But then, my cousin bought Canidae, she say it's a good brand which contains lower protein (Something like fattening ingredients, I think) for lap dog/small breed as they rarely exercise and Orijen would make them grow very fat lol. I planned to try Canidae ... What do you guys think? And also science plan, anyone tried it?

This post has been edited by JeanneHoe94: May 5 2010, 07:03 PM

halo, lamb and fish no corn............
Blackwood is not a bad brand at its price, average at it range.

Just did a check on Blackwood's website. Most of their products has either corn or rice as their 2nd main ingredient, which is not good. 1st 2 ingredients should preferably be not rice or corn.

For those who asked about Pedigree/Alpo, what Divas said, it's super mega bad food lol. Basically the human equivalent of eating nothing but Twisties/cheese rings everyday.

I suspect Natural Balance doesn't taste too good so it'll put off fussier dogs. Tried the canned food (Duck and Potato) and my adult mutt and elderly foster dog sniffed then refused to eat it. My neighbour's border collie (also quite picky) didn't want to eat his Natural Balance kibble either. It's supposed to be one of the better brands but my bf's sheltie, my lab pup and foster beagle pup all got really runny poo on it - I wonder what ingredient wreaks havoc with their digestive system! I've heard of other dogs that do well on NB but for some reason it's Kryptonite to all my dogs lol.


Cheers, I actually had to learn the hard way when I got my first dog who was a picky eater His pickiness turned out to be a good thing cos it made me do my own research about proper dog nutrition after he refused to eat rubbish food a vet recommended (Science Plan). Most vets will push Science Plan as they have dealerships with them, it's pretty ironic how a lot of vets here will push inferior food when their profession is dedicated to pet health! I have a vet friend who tells it like it is and frankly wouldn't feed his own dogs stuff that's on the shelves of most vet practices here, which is something to think about.


Science Plan is rubbish IMO. Quite pricey yet full of crap. Vets and pet shops love to recommend it for some reason, maybe the profit margin is high or something lol. It was one of the first brands I tried based on a vet's recommendation, I was ignorant about dog food then and figured if a vet says it's good it should be good right? My dog refused to eat it! My neighbour's border collie was recently recommended Science Plan - and my neighbour was stunned to find ants crawling all over his poop! Makes you wonder what stuff they put in it that a dog isn't able to digest, comes out in poop and attracts ants

Not tried Canidae but the ingredients list is quite good. It should be one of the better foods out there. Whether Canidae will work out better for your dog depends on her dietary needs - what's your main priority? If you're sure that high protein levels is causing "heatiness" in your dog then Canidae might be a better option as most of their food has lower protein compared to Orijen. In general, a high protein diet is great for most dogs and shouldn't cause stress on the organs. A notable exception is when a dog already has a preexisting liver/kidney problem, then you'd go for a diet with less protein which is the case with an elderly dog I'm fostering.

If your main concern is weight gain, then Canidae will actually be more likely to fatten up your dog compared to Orijen as most of their food contains grain. More grain = more carbohydrates. Protein doesn't fatten up dogs, carbs + fat content are what you should be looking at in the ingredients list if you want to figure out how fattening a dog food is. Canidae has two grain-free types of food which look very good (Salmon Meal; All Life Stages) but they're very high protein like Orijen so you might get a similar result. If you feed the Canidae varieties with grain - on one hand there's significantly less protein, on the other there are a lot more carbs.

Here's a nutritional comparison between Orijen and Canidae food (grabbed the ingredients list off Dog Food Analysis) which might help you understand better what I'm talking about:



See how much higher the carb content is in Canidae's Chicken & Rice/Lamb & Rice/Beef & Fish varieties compared to their grain-free types and Orijen's? One possible solution is if you want lower protein content yet don't want your dog to gain a lot of weight, you can try feeding your dog less if you switch to Canidae food with grain (perhaps the Lamb & Rice or Beef & Fish variety which is lower in fat).

would like to hear you guys opinion about addiction. thnx

I think i love you... This is the first time i have met someone on this forum who has such a deep understanding of canine nutrition and a firm grasp of what is good and what isn't (or at least the first time someone else has spoken up about it in such a concise and easy to understand manner).
I too am a strong believer that Science Plan/Science Diet/Hills is a totally poo food. The only exception i find is that the Formula for dogs with kidney failure does seem to improve the life of dogs with severe kidney problems. All the other varieties don't seem to produce any different results than a high quality normal food in sick dogs and doesn't keep a healthy dog as healthy as high quality normal foods.
Science Plan claims that it works by using a different production method to other foods that breaks down the ingredients into smaller chunks which eliminates the allergens in corn and such. However if you just didn't use ingredients that are known to be common causes of allergies (and other problems) in dogs, this wouldn't be an issue. Also there are some cases where dogs still exhibit the same symptoms they did previously showing that it doesn't in fact work in every case.
Also (the last time i checked) the nutritional values for Science Plan are lacking in almost every way. The easiest one to see is the Protein content which is much lower than you would want to see in a pet food for healthy active pets, or for pets who need as much energy as possible to fight off whatever they are suffering from.
I do know that only certified vets are allowed to order Science Plan and it does have quite a high profit margin compared to most other food brands which makes it an attractive sale. Also Science Plan has been known to be one of the main sponsors for a number of vet text books.
I'm not saying all vets are pushing Science Plan just for an attractive profit, but there are better foods out there (and i have heard of a few vets who prefer to suggest high quality brands over Science Plan) but some do, i have personally be "prescribed" Science Plan (suggested use for life in all cases) for Ringworm infection, Digestive Tract sensitivity, Picky eater and an Oversized Golden who is at high risk of developing Hip-Displasia in later life, all of which have been managed and (in the cases where possible) cured without the use of Science Plan.



Undecided from me, i don't personally like it but there is no major nutritional or ingredient issue that i can identify. The ingredients in their different varieties are very different so its quite hard to discuss them as a whole. Overall their ingredients are good and they do have some excellent ingredients, but the choose not to put them in all their foods. This is a great site 'Food Analyisis' with very easy to read analysis of a number of different foods (the link goes directly to the Addiction analysis).
Protein is a little on the high side for my liking (i generally find a protein content of 24% - 26% is just right for most dogs) at 29% but this isn't a major issue for a dog that gets plenty of exercise.

The only major issues i have with Addiction is firstly the price (the last time i did a price check was around 6 months ago so i don't know how accurate it is now). It seems a little on the high side for what it is, and i am always a little wary of foods that use fancy packaging (i understand it is to get your attention but if the food really is THAT good, they don't need to and would be better spending the money on researching to improve their food. The other issue i have is their new 'raw food diet'. I don't think, with current manufacturing processes, that a commercial raw food diet is the best way to go.
The whole benefit of BARF is that you know exactly what your dog is eating and where it comes from, also looking at the history of how commercial kibble developed (starting with brands like Pedigree and Alpo and them moving onwards and upwards to the better brands that are around today) i would be wary of using a 'new form' of commercial food so close to its introduction to the market.


Perhaps people can post the ingredients list and Nutritional analysis of dog foods they want to know about (choose one or 2 specific variety that you are interested in) and then we can discuss the specific ingredients that are good and bad and everyone can get an idea of what to look out for

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Added on May 6, 2010, 2:55 pmYes their catfish variety does conform to the preferred ingredients for a good dog food and yes lamb and rice doesn't contain corn, but it still has its negative points. So here goes, first up Lamb and Rice:

Ingredient list:

Lamb Meal, Rice Flour, Oatmeal, Poultry Meal, Ground Rice, Plain Dried Beet Pulp (Sugar Removed), Poultry Fat [Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols (Source of Vitamin E) and Citric Acid], Dried Tomato Pomace, Menhaden Fish Meal, Lecithin, Vegetable Oil, Dried Cheese, Monosodium Phosphate, Fish Oil, DL-Methionine, Choline Chloride, Dried Enterococcus Faccium Fermentation Products, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Yucca Schidigera Extract, Salt, L-Lysine, Ascorbic Acid (Source of Vitamin C), Dried Garlic, Vitamin A Acetate, D-Activated Animal Sterol (Source of Vitamin D3), Vitamin E Supplement, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (Source of Vitamin K Activity), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Niacin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Biotin, Manganese Sulfate, Maganous Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Iron Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Oxide, Zinc Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Potassium Chloride, Sodium Selenite.

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:

Crude Protein, not less than..........24.00%
Crude Fat, not less than................14.00%**
Crude Fiber, not more than.............4.00%
Moisture, not more than..................9.00%

So first of all we look at the first 5 ingredients purely as ingredients, there is Lamb meal (which is good) Rice flour (which is ok), Oatmeal (also ok), Poultry Meal (not a good ingredient), and Ground rice (fine). Now look at them as a whole, in a good food you need to have at least 2 single source meats, Blackwood Lamb and Rice has one. Next you will always find some kind of filler in the top 5, but it is best to have a maximum of 2, Blackwood has 3 which indicates that this food is probably more grain than anything else. Yes they have used higher quality grains (rice and oats) but still grains, and a lot of them.
I have saved Poultry Meal for last as this is the main ingredient i have a problem with. 'Poultry' in dog foods means a combination of Chicken, Duck and Turkey First off, this means that Blackwood Lamb and Rice contains some other meats than Lamb, also because it is not a single source meat this means that the amount of chicken, duck or turkey can vary in each bag... this is not a good thing! Dog kibble is supposed to be stable (dog's digestive system works best when it is given the same thing constantly, which is why if you change foods suddenly your dog usually gets diarrhea for a few days). If they were using the same amount of Chicken, Turkey and Duck in every batch, they would be listed as individual ingredients.
Poultry (and Poultry meal) usually consists of whatever meat surplus at the "supplier market" and so gets lumped into a 'bargain bin' of sorts and sold for a cheaper price because the exact content (percentage of chicken to duck to turkey) cannot be guaranteed.

We then look at the rest of the ingredients: Beet Pulp is a controversial ingredient and there is (as yet) no consensus on whether it is beneficial or not. We then have Poultry fat (same problem as Poultry Meal, not a stable ingredient). Tomato, Fish, Lecithin, Veg oil, all ok but nothing special. Dried Cheese is totally unneccesary and purely included for flavoring (which in a good dog food will be limited in most cases to 'natural flavorings' if anything), lower down the list there is also Salt and Dried Garlic which are again for flavoring purposes only (the amount of garlic contained would not be enough to cause toxicity which can be caused by garlic in dogs, it will also not be enough for any of the documented health benefits of garlic).
The last thing i want to discuss as far as the food is concerned are the "Dried Enterococcus Faccium Fermentation Products" and "Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product". I have as yet been unable to find an exact description of what these are, however from what i can tell from research i have done is that they are the left over products of the fermentation process to extract healthy bacteria (Lactobacillus Acidophilus is a form of bacteria and i'm assuming Enterococcus Faccium is as well). As i don't know specifically what these products are i can't comment definitively on their benefits or detremental effects, however usually in dog foods something that is a 'left over' product of some kind of process is a cheaper form of the ingredient that is readily available and safe for use (however higher priced) in dog foods.

As far as the Guaranteed Analysis goes (this one is from the internet), they don't guarantee much, but what they do guarantee is all within normal levels for a dog food. Good dog foods often have a full work up of vitamin and mineral content to look at.

Now i will briefly look at Blackwood 1000 ("for normally active adults")

Ingredients List:
Poultry Meal, Corn Meal, Chicken Fat [Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols (Source of Vitamin E) and Citric Acid], Dried Plain Beet Pulp (Sugar Removed), Ground Rice, Oatmeal, Dried Potato Product, Brewers Dried Yeast, Menhaden Fish Meal, Flax Meal, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Lecithin, L-Lysine, DL-Methionine, Dried Whey, Dried Cheese, Dried Garlic, Calcium Carbonate, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (Source of Vitamin C), Yucca Schidigera Extract, Dried Steptococcus Facium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Biotin, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamin Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Menadione Dimethylpyrimidinol Bisulfite (Source of Vitamin K Activity), Citric Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Potassium Chloride, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Iodate.

As most of the ingredients lower down are pretty much the same as the Lamb and Rice formula i will only discuss the first 5:
Poultry Meal (already discussed, bad bad bad), Corn Meal (corn is in the top 3 ingested allergens in dogs, bad bad bad), Chicken fat is a good ingredient (a million times better than the Poultry fat found in the lamb variety), Beet Pulp (already discussed), and Ground rice (one of the better fillers, although 'whole rice' is better as it contains the husks which are a good form of fiber (as long as they haven't been dusted with pesticides and other nasty chemicals).
So with the combination top 2 of Poultry meal and Corn meal, this is NOT a great or even a good food, and definitely not worth what you pay for it (you can find much better foods in the same price range).

Yes as you said, the Catfish variety is a decent food... however do you want to judge by the best they can offer or the worst. If Blackwood has no problems using sub par ingredients in the majority of its foods to get a favorable profit margin what makes you think they won't try to cut costs in every (non-visible) way possible in all their food varieties?

This post has been edited by Divas: May 6 2010, 03:00 PM

Arcana and orijen pls...

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Added on May 6, 2010, 11:18 pmseems to have some good review from this site

also i remember someone posted about high protein is good for your dog...but many others posted otherwise...im confused now...

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Added on May 6, 2010, 11:32 pma few google and it seems high protein is GOOD for your dog...a tldr site



This post has been edited by karwaidotnet: May 6 2010, 11:34 PM

Dog foods that I have tried & what I think after studying the ingredients. From the bad dog food list I only tried one brand. The one I can't remember the name but I believe it led my beloved 10 year old mongrel to his casket due to my dad trying to budget without me knowing.

My good dog food list:-

Orijen, Acana, Artemis, California Natural, Solid Gold, Organics.

My so-so dog food list:-

Eukanuba, Proplan, Blackwood, NutriEdge, Avoderm, Nutro.

My bad dog food list:-

Pedigree, Alpo, Science Diet, SmartHeart, Trusty, some american brand sold in TMC.

I read proctor n gamble bought over natura. Apparently after they bought over science plan n hills the quality went down the drain. So dunno how long Origen is gonna last as a good food?