Quite a logical definition, but perhaps a bit narrow. For physically small or resource limited systems, this rings true. However, once certain criteria of performance (CPU/RAM) and user interface are met, an embedded system is entirely capable of self-hosting its development environment. For instance, one needs a decent method of character input, a screen that displays a reasonable amount of text, and storage for the source files and compilation tools.  My example of the "embedded PC" above could be one such system.

I guess there isn't one all encompassing definition for an embedded system. But the concensus seems to be that the next gen. consoles would still be firmly rooted as embedded systems, until they start sprouting spreadsheets and word processors (i.e. be capable of general purpose computing).

Oooi...why no debate here last few days one?? Must be running out of rumours and news and steams liao...

btw, to all those techie gurus, i just wanna ask this:

Why do you think the PS3 CELL has 1 "redundant SPE" and runs 25GFlops(theorotically) less?? IMO, redundant means FAULTY. SONY must be having headache trying to get enough good yield to get all 8 SPE working and thus probably getting a high % of literally.."half baked"..sillicons with one SPE still "uncooked"(or toasted...whichever u prefer...hee-hee).

I remember previously that SONY mentioned that the CELL will not be ready in time for the PS3, but obviously they squeeze the chip development schedule ahead to make the CELL ready for the PS3, but in turn have to sacrifice some time to further fine tune and improve the design and also the time needed for the manufacturing process to get mature to have high % of good yield.

So their best bet would be going for 7 SPE, which in their opinion is achievable without throwing away too many CELL chips (those < 7 SPE working).

Maybe a year or two later, they'll have a good enough manufacturing process to get enough good yield for 8 working SPE, then we have an 8 SPE PS3?

As for XBOX360, I think ATI unified shader is very interesting and certainly sounds a lot more flexible than Nvidia "Dual SLI GT6xxxx on a chip". But there's a rumour that the shaders can only do EITHER pixel or vertex shader PER CYCLE, meaning it's not as flexible as it seems, anyone have any more info about this?

Okay...finally the PS4!! Okay, i'm a bit far ahead, but if the CELL proves successful,  in another 6 years time, the manufacturing process will be good, the design has improve and they can make lots of CELL chip at rock bottom prices. And since the CELL is all multi CPU ready. The # of SPE can also increase per CELL CPU by then. By just packing in a couple of cheap CELL chips, they'll have the next PS a real powerhouse at a cheap price...which i think that's when their CELL hardware investment really pays off.(but of course, the PS3 would have guarantee them some ROI in terms of software royalty and other potential electronic products(TOSHIBA washing machine!!! Oh yeah, the next TOSHIBA washing machine will have a GIGABIT network port and linkable to your PS3!! Maybe you can control the swirling motion of the water from your PS3 BATARANG!! J/K) might give some cash back also)..after all, the according to IBM/SONY/Toshiba, the CELL was designed to cater for the next 10 years or so.

Still, currently, the CELL as it is, sounds good ( the multi SPE) but at the same time, it's a IN-ORDER CPU (like the XBOX360 PPC CPU also), which is much less complicated than Intel/AMD CPU's for PCs which is OUT OF ORDER CPU. I think OOO CPU is more powerful as it can predict instructions and acts accordingly while, IO CPU is simplistic and just acts on whatever it's fed.

Of course the benefit of the IO CPU is reduced size, meaning less HEAT and faster requency...so you can't exactly compare a PPC or Intel chip running at 3.2Ghz to a 3.2Ghz CELL.

Thus in order to fully utilize the CELL CPU, the PS3 archictecture have to have a huge bandwidth and streamline the instructions to the SPE via the Power PC core(what do they call that? PPE?), I've no idea how are they intending to overcome the shortcoming of the in-order instruction sets, but most likely, like it's predecessor, the EE and GS chip, by some the force of raw brute bandwidth, which hopefully is enough to feed it optimally.(the CELL is sorta evolution and further improvement from the EE/GS combo me thinks).

Finally a stab at the SPECS. All those bally-hoo about 2 TERAFLOPS ...but no mention on whether it is single precision or double precision..no mention of how the benchmark was done...same for MS. Basically, both are crappio marketing scheme.

I believe the CELL will be adequately powerful, but i don't buy it to be THAT powerful...just like the EE/GS back in it's time. But i think the real payoff of the CELL is not now, but the next 5 years, when the manufacturing process has improved and design has been further finetune and when multiple cheap CELLS are easily available and linkable in a single motherboard to power the washing machine, TV, fridge,steam iron and whatelse...PS4..

Okay guys...shoot away.

Still, currently, the CELL as it is, sounds good ( the multi SPE) but at the same time, it's a IN-ORDER CPU (like the XBOX360 PPC CPU also), which is much less complicated than Intel/AMD CPU's for PCs which is OUT OF ORDER CPU. I think OOO CPU is more powerful as it can predict instructions and acts accordingly while, IO CPU is simplistic and just acts on whatever it's fed.

Could you direct us to the source of that information, it''ll interesting to know that Sony is packing up 9 SPEs to provide improved yield, something unheard of (by me at least) so far

Thanks to Silkworm and Ray for some explanation....i don't pretend to understand everything Silkworm put up there...maybe 30% , but good enough for me.

So that means the PPC and CELL has "branch prediction" which achieves similar results to OOO execution, rite?
9 SPE? No, i was saying 7 SPE. It is in the official PS3 SPECS all over the web. It's mentioned "1 SPE reserved for redundancy" or something like that.

Added:

Here's a nice link for reading the CELL...haven't finish reading it myself...hurts my head...LOL.

http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techl...icle-021405.pdf

Thanks to Silkworm and Ray for some explanation....i don't pretend to understand everything Silkworm put up there...maybe 30% , but good enough for me.

So that means the PPC and CELL has "branch prediction" which achieves similar results to OOO execution, rite?
9 SPE? No, i was saying 7 SPE. It is in the official PS3 SPECS all over the web. It's mentioned "1 SPE reserved for redundancy" or something like that.

Added:

Here's a nice link for reading the CELL...haven't finish reading it myself...hurts my head...LOL.

http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techl...icle-021405.pdf

I think if what you've said in regards to redundancy is true, I would presume that the redundant SPE is there to be swapped in when all 7 SPEs are swarmed to maintain throughput. Or, a non-maskable error such as alignment faults is causing one of the SPE to be decommissioned until it's reset.

I would anticipate a new programming paradigm for Cell. Well, at least for the developer of the Cell's RTOS. God forbid that the memory management of the SPE  would ever be passed into the hands of the application developer.

Actually, I would anticipate a few scenarios that could be implemented into the memory management portion of the SPE in the RTOS:
1) Each SPE's task footprint would be made small enough to fit into the 256K LS. Task would be queued in a shared virtual task pipe and fed into the SPE based on either first-come-first-served basis, round-robin or priority scheduling. Any any rate, there would be frequent memory swap accomodated by the PPE MMU.
2) Each SPE would be assigned its own dedicated virtual task pipe and fed into the SPE based on either first-come-first-served basis, round-robin or priority scheduling. Memory swap is accomodated by the PPE MMU.
3) There aren't enough task to load all 7 SPEs and the redundant SPE(s) could be programmed to power the PS3 grill as required. (*yum...)

Actually, I would anticipate a few scenarios that could be implemented into the memory management portion of the SPE in the RTOS:
1) Each SPE's task footprint would be made small enough to fit into the 256K LS. Task would be queued in a shared virtual task pipe and fed into the SPE based on either first-come-first-served basis, round-robin or priority scheduling. Any any rate, there would be frequent memory swap accomodated by the PPE MMU.
2) Each SPE would be assigned its own dedicated virtual task pipe and fed into the SPE based on either first-come-first-served basis, round-robin or priority scheduling. Memory swap is accomodated by the PPE MMU.
3) There aren't enough task to load all 7 SPEs and the redundant SPE(s) could be programmed to power the PS3 grill as required. (*yum...)

IIRC... the only reason the "redundant" SPE is there is to increase yields. The Cell is a pretty big chip, so it's very likely that there will be some imperfections in many of the chips. Since the SPEs take up most of the space, it's likely that a fault is on one of the SPEs. In that case, they can just disable the SPE and still get a useable chip out of it. All chips that have fully functional SPEs will also have one disabled to maintain consistency. It's the same thing with the XB360 GPU. There are more than 48 ALUs but the faulty ones are disabled to increase yields. I think a lot of modern chips have some sort of redundancy for this purpose.

Yuji Naka, Sonic the Hedgehog series creator at Sega

PlayStation 3 - "I am very interested in its high-quality graphics capabilities. It's equipped with a graphics chip that's twice as powerful as the high-end [graphics card] for the PC, which allows it to make realistic expressions that haven't been possible before."

Revolution - "I look forward to the 'new kind of fun' that's unique to Nintendo, and I expect that there will be a lot of surprises, such as the unannounced controller. It's also great that we'll be able to play Famicom and other games via download. I hope Sega games will be playable as well." [Note: A number of Sega titles have been released for Nintendo consoles by Sunsoft.]

Xbox 360 - "[Microsoft has] used its knowledge from Xbox Live to evolve their network, making its services and controls even more convenient for the user, which I think is a very attractive point."

Keisuke Kikuchi, Kagero II and Fatal Frame series producer at Tecmo

PlayStation 3 - "It has a very attractive high machine spec. It may be difficult to design a system that can balance out the use of its power, but it should be worth the effort. It should be fun to make games that tend to require high-quality graphics, such as horse-racing games and horror games."

Revolution - "It's difficult to comment on it since there's been very little information, but I'm looking forward to the controller that's yet to be announced."

Xbox 360 - "It's a well-balanced machine. Its CPU, graphics, memory, network capability, and convenience of hardware control are at a high level. I would like to make a game that takes advantage of its online connection."

Masanori Takeuchi, Otogi series producer at From Software

PlayStation 3 - "To be honest, it's still full of unknown factors, and it's difficult to comment on. In my own opinion, it doesn't seem like hardware that will make games more fun. It's being called a 'supercomputer', so I guess it's like a set top box which functions like a PC. My impression [of the console] is like, 'It can also play games, which is good.'"

Revolution - "It's like a console that old-time gamers can drool over. It still has some mysteries, but it's not too difficult to imagine what the machine can do, so there should be people that are clearly looking forward to purchasing it. Its capabilities such as the function to play with the DS via Wi-Fi connection might change the way of gaming, and it's interesting."

Xbox 360 - "It seems like a standard evolvement from the current generation [of consoles]. Whether that's good or bad would depend on the opinion of different people. But it's obvious that the console is meant for heavy users. I believe it's also a console that publishers can use their accumulated knowledge the most [out of the next-generation machines]. It's the best hardware if you have a good fund and you don't want to take risks in development."

Noritaka Funamizu, former Capcom producer and current executive director of Craft & Meister

PlayStation 3 - "It's hardware with the utmost power. I believe it can realize new expressions in both graphics and music, in ways that haven't been possible until now."

Revolution - "There hasn't been much information released about it yet. But I'm looking forward to it as a machine that will feature a distinct kind of fun, different from the direction that the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 are headed."

Xbox 360 - "It has a high [hardware] capability, but it's also strong in terms of network and it's also a major console in the American market. So I am planning on title[s] with those aspects kept in consideration."

Yoshiki Okamoto, former Capcom executive and current representative of Game Republic

Xbox 360 - "When considering the titles by Q entertainment's Mizuguchi-san, Mistwalker's Sakaguchi-san, and other games that will be announced in the future, the Xbox 360 should have enough firepower to fight in the next-generation console war. The independent creators such as myself are like the front line that's meant to cut through [the enemies] and start off a good pace, with an army [of publishers] following right behind us."

Kou Shibusawa, producer at Koei

PlayStation 3 - "We showed a trailer of Ni-oh at E3 in May. This game will take full advantage of the extreme hardware spec of the PlayStation 3. Being able to show movie-quality CG in real-time raises our creativeness, and it stimulates our heart as creators. We hope our challenge on new product[s] that will stun our users."

Revolution - "It seems to be going in a different direction from the other two consoles, and it's trying to develop its own unique market. Being able to play old games from the Famicom era should be enticing to the gaming generation, and as a creator, I look forward to playing my games that I have a special fondness for. Aside from having good graphics, the Revolution's uniqueness and concentration towards gameplay should make it a product that's good towards all ages."

Xbox 360 - "Aside from the machine specs, I see great potential in its network capabilities and connectivity with PCs, which is Microsoft's territory. When thinking about the future of online games, I feel the urge to create a new product that takes advantage of [Xbox Live]. Since the Xbox 360 is coming out first, I am very interested in looking at how it will affect the market."

We can have a peek at the Linux "model" of programming the SPEs in these kernel patches released a couple of months ago. SPEs exist as "files" in the filesystem and that's how program code and data are transferred onto it. The SPEs are idle until a DMA "kick" command is sent to it, after which it looks like it's controlled by the standard POSIX threading API. At least, that's what I've managed to glean from the raw patch data. I'd need to actually patch the full kernel source to see the context of some parts, like the interrupt controller and the memory management unit.

One might also gain insight on the programming model of Cell from the archived presentation/webcast linked from Power.org, from the Barcelona Power conference held last week. I haven't had a chance to view it yet and the webcast isn't downloadable for offline viewing.

Take it easy, the host thread is stalled, not the entire PPE. The SPU/SPE is going to be encapsulated into a Pthread, as you will see in the "bpathread.c" module.

An SPE may be deactivated by firmware, by putting it in a power saving state, or by modifying the metal layers thereby cutting off the power to it on the IC level. If the first option is used, we might see something like what PC overclockers have been doing for a while now; tweaking firmware to unlock deactivated hardware. But that might be pointless because all PS3 software would be targetted for only 7 SPEs and the reactivated one wouldn't be used anyway.

lol,i want a steak grill not barbeque grill