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 Inbreeding and Accelerated Evolution, prev: Incest, Inbreeding & Evolution

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TSMesosmagnet
post Dec 20 2009, 06:34 PM, updated 16y ago

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I've read many articles over the years regarding incest. And how people are very against such practices.

First allow me to define Incest and Inbreeding : (taken directly from wikipedia)

- Incest is any sexual activity between close relatives (often within the immediate family) irrespective of the ages of the participants and irrespective of their consent, that is illegal, socially taboo or contrary to a religious norm.
- Inbreeding is a genetic term that refers to reproduction as a result of the mating of two animals which are genetically related to each other.


Now though I would actually like to discuss about inbreeding, I would mainly like to discuss inbreeding in humans thus my reason for including incest. Incest usually leads to inbreeding.

To most people today inbreeding is a bad practice. Known results of inbreeding include genetic disorders, lower birth-rate, higher infant mortality, slower growth rate, and immune system problems. And just based on that fact we regard inbreeding as a bad practice.

Here is what most people miss. No matter what you believe in, whether it be in evolution or in God creating man and women. Humans started as few, and in that few, inbreeding must have taken place for the population to grow. And at one point inbreeding stopped and that is what caused the human population to become larger than it should be. Allowing genes of weak members of the species to thrive, is probably human species worst mistake.

Inbreeding helps in the natural selection process, removing the weak genes (which cause members of the species to lose out), so that the strong genes ( from the more fit of the species ) may thrive. What that essentially means is that evolution relies heavily on inbreeding. And when humans stopped inbreeding, we stopped evolving.

As we know evolution happens when the next generation inherits the previous generations traits, and the process is repeated, producing a refined being. Most of the time, these traits passed down to the next generation, which have been developed/cultivated by the previous generation, ends up as recessive genes. Why? Because only genes that are present in both sets of chromosomes will become dominant. And usually the only genes that are present in both sets of chromosomes are the genes of our ancient ancestors. Thus stalling the evolution process.

Unlike animals, humans are in control of their environment, and they are able to choose who they reproduce with. And based on that humans should be evolving much faster than most other beings on the planet. Proof of that is found when livestock breeders perform selective breeding and culling. This process produces the "best" livestock based on the criteria that the breeder has chosen.


My short point of view on the topic. Please share what you think.

This post has been edited by Mesosmagnet: Jan 9 2010, 02:07 PM
ZeratoS
post Dec 20 2009, 09:00 PM

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I stand on the fence on this matter, though you do have quite the point there. The question then actually lies on the issue of morality, a rather subjective thing. What may be considered the best course of action may not necassarily be the most morally correct one in the eyes of society.
lin00b
post Dec 20 2009, 09:43 PM

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while selective human breeding may produce offspring of superior quality;

1. our genetic knowledge is not good enough to ensure this "smaller, leaner gene pool" have a good enough defence against future desease.

2. humans are not mindless machine that act purely on logic. if your you dont like your partner despite s/he having the most compatible genetic material, you dont proceed.. and vice versa.

3. and no; while religious text may suggest inbreeding (starting population=few). this does not happen with evolution. as evolution is not discrete. during speciation, neighbouring branches are still fertile with each other and with the source branch, providing ample variation until the new species have a big enough population size.
SUSb3ta
post Dec 21 2009, 03:38 AM

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if everything goes according to TS' ideals then all it takes to wipe us out is a single disease. with inbreeding, the chances of genetic variation is lower, hence probably makes it harder for us to have people to be able to develop an immunity or resistance towards diseases. diversity is the way to go.

there is always this thing called natural selection where the weak is defeated. this works no matter what your genotype is.

besides, the rate at which technology has developed for us has been the greatest in this century. it is also in this century that we see many more people of mixed heritage. on the contrary, mixed breeding has been showing tremendous results as it allows humanity to find its best combination.
SUSslimey
post Dec 21 2009, 04:21 AM


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i disagree that evolution has stopped. my observation is that the human's physical size has been reducing throughout the years and the mental side has grown.

and there is no proof that when human first appear there is inbreeding.

as for the weak genes or strong genes selection through selective breeding.....how do you define which gene's are strong or weak ? strong gene's might be considered weak in certain environmental or sociological conditions and vice versa.

as for the rate of evolution, it depends largely on the stability of the genes on the chromosome and the rate of reproduction.

we as humans do have the choice to select or steer the direction of evolution. for now there's genetic screening for pathology at the level of sperm and ovum before they fuse.

we just scratched the surface of what is possible in genetics, maybe in the future we might have the choice to select the traits we want.
100n
post Dec 21 2009, 05:09 PM

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"And at one point inbreeding stopped and that is what caused the human population to become larger than it should be. Allowing genes of weak members of the species to thrive, is probably human species worst mistake."

I think this statement is wrong. When inbreeding stop. Only human population thrive. Any species that practise inbreeding are heading to extinction(proven). Example: Tasmania tiger, Black Rhino.

"Proof of that is found when livestock breeders perform selective breeding and culling. This process produces the "best" livestock based on the criteria that the breeder has chosen."

Selection Breeding is different from Inbreeding. Selection breeding is to chose the best stock to breed with another different stock. Which means, selection breeding is to avoid inbreeding.

Inbreeding only works on stock/ornamental pet. Which also proven to create more undesire offspring that usually deform. Which end up more culling.

Inbreeding also reduce the gene pool which will wipe out the whole species if disease strike.

For example: HIV kill Human. But due to the large gene pool in Human. Scientist already found a minority of human actually immune to HIV. Therefore, If whole world infected with HIV. Most probably african will survive.

This post has been edited by 100n: Dec 21 2009, 05:10 PM
TSMesosmagnet
post Dec 21 2009, 06:02 PM

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Hmm..

What most of you are saying, concerns the current human population. Which to me has already been "defiled". So currently even if we humans were to practice inbreeding it wouldn't really turn out very well. But..

One day, an unknown disease wipes out a very large portion of the human population with only those who are immune to the disease survive. Though this few that survive might be the effects of diversity in the gene pool (as some of you have said), what I want to express is what happens after the mass die out.

If those few humans left were to reproduce, their offspring would never have to fear of being infected by the unknown disease. Only after that will inbreeding work to produce "better" human beings.

Thus less genetic diversity is not entirely a bad thing. Though there is a possibility of our race being wiped out by a single epidemic, we are less likely to be infected in the first place. By assuring that only the toughest of individuals survive and reproduce, the probability of getting infected easily is also reduced.

Now while doing some "research" on the matter I found this article. It is dated 1992 which is clearly a very long time ago but the article is still worth the read.


» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


SOURCE


I'd really like more feedback on the matter. It doesn't have to be proven fact, just theories are welcome too.
deeplyheartbroken
post Dec 21 2009, 11:24 PM

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If practiced repeatedly, it leads to an increase in homozygosity of a population.
jswong
post Dec 22 2009, 02:05 PM

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It's not true that inbreeding leads to evolution! Where did you read that??

Inbreeding leads to a pedigree collapse. Human genes improve when the so-called "genetic distance" is greater. The greater the dissimilarities, the stronger the resultant combination. Don't forget that men have XY chromosomes that do not support error-correction unlike women's XX. The Y portion will change over time, whether losing or gaining information. That's how scientists could track changes in a bloodline from one generation to the next.

When you inbreed, the resultant male offspring's XY chromosome will have more errors compared to a non-inbred one. Inbreed another generation, and the errors multiply. Pretty soon you'll have a generation of basket cases who are unable to survive and they die off.
IcyDarling
post Dec 22 2009, 06:01 PM

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QUOTE(Mesosmagnet @ Dec 20 2009, 07:34 PM)
I've read many articles over the years regarding incest. And how people are very against such practices.

First allow me to define Incest and Inbreeding : (taken directly from wikipedia)

- Incest is any sexual activity between close relatives  (often within the immediate family) irrespective of the ages of the participants and irrespective of their consent, that is illegal, socially taboo  or contrary to a religious norm.
- Inbreeding is a genetic term that refers to reproduction  as a result of the mating of two animals which are genetically related to each other.
Now though I would actually like to discuss about inbreeding, I would mainly like to discuss inbreeding in humans thus my reason for including incest. Incest usually leads to inbreeding.

To most people today inbreeding is a bad practice. Known results of inbreeding include genetic disorders, lower birth-rate, higher infant mortality, slower growth rate, and immune system problems. And just based on that fact we regard inbreeding as a bad practice.

Here is what most people miss. No matter what you believe in, whether it be in evolution or in God creating man and women. Humans started as few, and in that few, inbreeding must have taken place for the population to grow. And at one point inbreeding stopped and that is what caused the human population to become larger than it should be. Allowing genes of weak members of the species to thrive, is probably human species worst mistake.

Inbreeding helps in the natural selection process, removing the weak genes (which cause members of the species to lose out), so that the strong genes ( from the more fit of the species ) may thrive. What that essentially means is that evolution relies heavily on inbreeding. And when humans stopped inbreeding, we stopped evolving.

As we know evolution happens when the next generation inherits the previous generations traits, and the process is repeated, producing a refined being. Most of the time, these traits passed down to the next generation, which have been developed/cultivated by the previous generation, ends up as recessive genes. Why? Because only genes that are present in both sets of chromosomes will become dominant. And usually the only genes that are present in both sets of chromosomes are the genes of our ancient ancestors. Thus stalling the evolution process.

Unlike animals, humans are in control of their environment, and they are able to choose who they reproduce with. And based on that humans should be evolving much faster than most other beings on the planet. Proof of that is found when livestock breeders perform selective breeding and culling. This process produces the "best" livestock based on the criteria that the breeder has chosen.
My short point of view on the topic. Please share what you think.
*
my knowledge to this topic is really limited. So im just voicing opinion, dont flame me if i got it all wrong icon_question.gif


Well as u said,

Here is what most people miss. No matter what you believe in, whether it be in evolution or in God creating man and women. Humans started as few, and in that few, inbreeding must have taken place for the population to grow. And at one point inbreeding stopped and that is what caused the human population to become larger than it should be. Allowing genes of weak members of the species to thrive, is probably human species worst mistake.
from this quote, u are making ur assumption in the point of view where u believe God created man and women. I myself believe in god too, but scientist has succesfully linked us to chimps(or is it ape) and they concluded that our species evolved from them. Scientificly, the apes "incested" and evolved when the popularity was enough

once again, CORRECT ME IF IM WRONG
vivienne85
post Dec 22 2009, 09:54 PM

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somehow this topic will touch on God and creation and evolution,TS.

anyways,inbreeding within the family increases the chances of getting the recessive/bad traits.

inbreeding has got nothing to do with evolution AT ALL,period.


SUSb3ta
post Dec 22 2009, 11:47 PM

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QUOTE(IcyDarling @ Dec 22 2009, 09:01 PM)
my knowledge to this topic is really limited. So im just voicing opinion, dont flame me if i got it all wrong  icon_question.gif
Well as u said,

Here is what most people miss. No matter what you believe in, whether it be in evolution or in God creating man and women. Humans started as few, and in that few, inbreeding must have taken place for the population to grow. And at one point inbreeding stopped and that is what caused the human population to become larger than it should be. Allowing genes of weak members of the species to thrive, is probably human species worst mistake.
from this quote, u are making ur assumption in the point of view where u believe God created man and women. I myself believe in god too, but scientist has succesfully linked us to chimps(or is it ape) and they concluded that our species evolved from them. Scientificly, the apes "incested" and evolved when the popularity was enough

once again, CORRECT ME IF IM WRONG
*
there are missing links. this is not fact yet. it's still a theory, although a seemingly strong one.

theory of evolution. not fact of evolution
IcyDarling
post Dec 23 2009, 06:33 AM

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QUOTE(vivienne85 @ Dec 22 2009, 10:54 PM)
somehow this topic will touch on God and creation and evolution,TS.

anyways,inbreeding within the family increases the chances of getting the recessive/bad traits.

inbreeding has got nothing to do with evolution AT ALL,period.
*
well, the reason i linked them is because the TS stated that human started few when god created man and woman. So incest was a must. Evolution explains why incest did not happen,scientificly . anyway, its just my opinion.
vivienne85
post Dec 23 2009, 08:46 AM

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QUOTE(IcyDarling @ Dec 23 2009, 06:33 AM)
well, the reason i linked them is because the TS stated that human started few when god created man and woman. So incest was a must.Evolution explains why incest did not happen,scientificly . anyway, its just my opinion.
*
ok..got yr point..smile.gif
~lynn~
post Jan 5 2010, 12:07 AM

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Erm, anyone of you care to discuss this in another perspective, say in terms of human rights and freedom of choice.

If to look at it, some of the country's constitution did not disallow it. It is deem as legal, but was socially rejected.

Well one of the example (pardon me, I have no link nor proof, but remembered reading an article) was Germany, where the siblings married each other.
lin00b
post Jan 5 2010, 12:33 AM

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does freedom of choice/human right include the freedom/right to marry your own sibling if both party consent?
TSMesosmagnet
post Jan 5 2010, 12:52 AM

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this is a link that relates to that particular german sibling couple.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6424337.stm

According to the article only in Sweden is marriage between siblings not illegal. I wonder what the law in Malaysia states.

I would like to read up more about the topic. So if anyone knows any links to research done on this particular topic please leave a link here. Most of the studies I've read only focus on the negative side of inbreeding. And based on the fact that the chances of defectiveness in the offspring increases, it should be highly possible that the chances of getting an extra refined offspring also increases. Right?

And regarding human rights, I feel that our private lives are our own concern and the "state" should not get involved.

One more thing, does anyone know of any case where 2 people with AIDS have children? I am well aware that the child born has an almost 100% possibility of being born with AIDS but I also think that there might be a chance that a child born might be immune to the disease. Any research on that?
~lynn~
post Jan 5 2010, 01:20 AM

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QUOTE(lin00b @ Jan 5 2010, 12:33 AM)
does freedom of choice/human right include the freedom/right to marry your own sibling if both party consent?
*
Well if argued in a liberal democractic country where human rights and freedom of choice are of higher priority, the case could be won :/

QUOTE(Mesosmagnet @ Jan 5 2010, 12:52 AM)
this is a link that relates to that particular german sibling couple.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6424337.stm

According to the article only in Sweden is marriage between siblings not illegal. I wonder what the law in Malaysia states.

I would like to read up more about the topic. So if anyone knows any links to research done on this particular topic please leave a link here. Most of the studies I've read only focus on the negative side of inbreeding. And based on the fact that the chances of defectiveness in the offspring increases, it should be highly possible that the chances of getting an extra refined offspring also increases. Right?

And regarding human rights, I feel that our private lives are our own concern and the "state" should not get involved.

One more thing, does anyone know of any case where 2 people with AIDS have children? I am well aware that the child born has an almost 100% possibility of being born with AIDS but I also think that there might be a chance that a child born might be immune to the disease. Any research on that?
*
Correct, I agree on how the states shouldn't intrude into the privacy of a personal choice, more so if both parties consent.
However, one may argue the state has the responsibility to protect its citizen. Thus this comes into play in a premise where the society deems incest and sibling marriage as a taboo. Dire repercussions may follow suit if it is allowed.
thesupertramp
post Jan 5 2010, 10:01 PM

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QUOTE(Mesosmagnet @ Jan 5 2010, 12:52 AM)
One more thing, does anyone know of any case where 2 people with AIDS have children? I am well aware that the child born has an almost 100% possibility of being born with AIDS but I also think that there might be a chance that a child born might be immune to the disease. Any research on that?
*
I don't think the HIV status of the father matters. The child contracts the virus mostly through the mother's blood as the virus passes through the placenta. The only way the father can pass on the virus to the baby is if he infects the mother, and the mother infects the baby. In other words, sperm does not carry the virus. I'm talking sperm cells here, not semen. Semen does. Be safe.

As for statistics, it is not 100%. According to this study:
Vertical transmission rates for HIV in the British Isles: estimates based on surveillance data. British Medical Journal Nov 6, 1999, v319 i7219, p1227

The rate is 20% with normal birth for pregnant ladies not on Anti-Retrovirals. Cesarean is higher at 32%. With Anti-Retrovirals, the rate drops to 2% and 4% respectively. Of course, there are also some who contract the virus within 6 months of birth from breast-feeding.

Be mindful these statistics are from one particular population, so might not be representative of all humans.


As far as I'm concerned, anti-HIV antibodies are ineffective against the virus. So even if it was passed on from the mother, I doubt the baby will have immunity.

Hope that helped.

EDIT: sucky grammar.

This post has been edited by thesupertramp: Jan 5 2010, 10:04 PM
~lynn~
post Jan 7 2010, 04:12 PM

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QUOTE(thesupertramp @ Jan 5 2010, 10:01 PM)
I don't think the HIV status of the father matters. The child contracts the virus mostly through the mother's blood as the virus passes through the placenta. The only way the father can pass on the virus to the baby is if he infects the mother, and the mother infects the baby. In other words, sperm does not carry the virus. I'm talking sperm cells here, not semen. Semen does. Be safe.

As for statistics, it is not 100%. According to this study:
Vertical transmission rates for HIV in the British Isles: estimates based on surveillance data. British Medical Journal Nov 6, 1999, v319 i7219, p1227

The rate is 20% with normal birth for pregnant ladies not on Anti-Retrovirals. Cesarean is higher at 32%. With Anti-Retrovirals, the rate drops to 2% and 4% respectively. Of course, there are also some who contract the virus within 6 months of birth from breast-feeding.

Be mindful these statistics are from one particular population, so might not be representative of all humans.
As far as I'm concerned, anti-HIV antibodies are ineffective against the virus. So even if it was passed on from the mother, I doubt the baby will have immunity.

Hope that helped.

EDIT: sucky grammar.
*
Helpful statistics, but I don't see how relevant it becomes to the discussion of incest. smile.gif

QUOTE(hurrr @ Jan 6 2010, 07:43 AM)
was not the whole population of the world started from inbreeding?

how did adam and eve was able to copulate and eventually populate the world with 6 billion people?
*
So, if I'm a non-believer i.e. aetheist, your argument falls?

More importantly, looking at the essense of your argument, just because (assuming that it does happen) they practice such act in the past, it should be allowed now?
I find it illogical because then by your logic, shouldn't canabalism be allowed since, well, it was practiced last time no?
Vice versa, long ago women has no rights. Perhaps then by your logic women should be chained to the home (or how some would say, specifically kitchen).
100n
post Jan 7 2010, 04:59 PM

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"was not the whole population of the world started from inbreeding?

how did adam and eve was able to copulate and eventually populate the world with 6 billion people? "

Yes. Human start from inbreeding... but adam and eve(if you believe adam n eve) did not populate the world with 6 billion people thru inbreeding.
...............................................................................................
Consider this:
a pair of monkey produce 12 sibling (assuming 6male/6 female). This sibling with eventually mate among the sibling... and the cycle goes on. Because they have the same genetic pool. If a disease strike, 99% of these population will die out (or survive) depends on situation. That's the advantage/disadvantage of inbreeding in long run.

In short-run, if the sibling above inbreed and produce another 12 babies, its possible 10-30% of it die-out due to inbreed because recessive gene are usually carries disease.


Added on January 7, 2010, 5:10 pmBtw, check out this webpage:

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/inbreeding.html

This post has been edited by 100n: Jan 7 2010, 05:10 PM
TSMesosmagnet
post Jan 7 2010, 05:33 PM

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Funny how everyone keeps insisting that our recessive genes are more likely to bring harm rather than good.

I'm not saying that they don't bring about harmful traits, but that's the way nature works. Go through a huge bunch of combination until it comes up with a good one to proceed on. Or am I wrong?

Another point to ponder on.. if inbreeding is bad.. then why are we not mating with apes? Humans all in some way related to each other, so we should not be mating among ourselves. And if you go back to a time when there were only a few humans, it is very very obvious that inbreeding did take place, and that is what probably allowed each ethnicity to develop unique likenesses to suit the way of life and environment. eg. Those in sunny countries developed skin to survive in such an environment, people in cold developed sharper noses to be able to breathe in colder air without damaging their inner nasal cavities. If we really look at each ethnicity unique feature we can clearly see evolution. Which very likely would not be present if we continually resisted inbreeding.

I look forward to a rebuttal statement. ^^

EDIT: thanks for the reading material. After reading that I would like to point out that the inbreeding that is being discussed here is not selective inbreeding, as in we do not get to choose which to keep which to be rid of, but rather let nature be the judge of what to keep and what to be rid of. And obviously I am not suggesting that we should ONLY practice inbreeding, as other humans also posses traits that makes a super elite human. And by incorporating them by cross breeding and removing unwanted genes through inbreeding the human race is likely to progress through evolution much faster. =P

This post has been edited by Mesosmagnet: Jan 7 2010, 05:42 PM
thesupertramp
post Jan 7 2010, 06:49 PM

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QUOTE(~lynn~ @ Jan 7 2010, 04:12 PM)
Helpful statistics, but I don't see how relevant it becomes to the discussion of incest. smile.gif
Did you read the question that was asked? I was answering a question, not discussing incest. If you have a problem with that, you should have asked why was that question asked in this thread.

QUOTE(Mesosmagnet @ Jan 7 2010, 05:33 PM)
Funny how everyone keeps insisting that our recessive genes are more likely to bring harm rather than good.

I'm not saying that they don't bring about harmful traits, but that's the way nature works. Go through a huge bunch of combination until it comes up with a good one to proceed on. Or am I wrong?

Another point to ponder on.. if inbreeding is bad.. then why are we not mating with apes? Humans all in some way related to each other, so we should not be mating among ourselves. And if you go back to a time when there were only a few humans, it is very very obvious that inbreeding did take place, and that is what probably allowed each ethnicity to develop unique likenesses to suit the way of life and environment. eg. Those in sunny countries developed skin to survive in such an environment, people in cold developed sharper noses to be able to breathe in colder air without damaging their inner nasal cavities. If we really look at each ethnicity unique feature we can clearly see evolution. Which very likely would not be present if we continually resisted inbreeding.

I look forward to a rebuttal statement. ^^

EDIT: thanks for the reading material. After reading that I would like to point out that the inbreeding that is being discussed here is not selective inbreeding, as in we do not get to choose which to keep which to be rid of, but rather let nature be the judge of what to keep and what to be rid of. And obviously I am not suggesting that we should ONLY practice inbreeding, as other humans also posses traits that makes a super elite human. And by incorporating them by cross breeding and removing unwanted genes through inbreeding the human race is likely to progress through evolution much faster. =P
*
I suppose the article has explained it?

Anyway, essentially, there is no such thing as a "perfect race". (Contrary to those who believe God created humans). A species's survival is based on variability, ie, mutations. Inbreeding would create one and the same. If conditions on earth were to remain the same forever and ever, this would not be a problem. But as we know, "the only thing that never changes is everything changes." Hence, the variation is important in creating individuals that can survive in this "new" condition. Of course, this also creates individuals that are less suitable than before to this new condition. That is where natural selection comes in. The weak will parish even before they pass on their genes, and the fit survive, and reproduce.

A hypothetical example would be, if one day Oxygen level were to drop too low that our current lungs cannot absorb this gas, then without variability, ie, if everyone's lungs are identical, it would be Goodbye Homo sapiens. However, if mutations occurred and there are individuals with lungs capable of absorbing low levels oxygen, they will survive, and reproduce. Homo sapiens survive.


As for inbreeding at the initial stages of humanity, no, that is a misunderstanding of evolution. Evolution is gradual. There is never a clear jump from one species to another in the evolutionary process. Only in retrospect would we have seen the difference, as we can compare the two fossils that date millions of years apart. Hence, the "first few humans" on earth were most likely not very different from their parents. So, unless their population was wiped out until a few of them remained, I don't see how inbreeding was necessary. I hope you get what I mean.

Why we don't mate with apes? It is because the variability of that would be too high, resulting in too low a survival rate for the newborns. To me, high variability may be good, but it is not necessary since the Earth's condition does not change rapidly, but gradually. (except for a few times in the last 3 billion years, which as we know, resulted in many species disappearing). Therefore, no reason for that compromise.

This post has been edited by thesupertramp: Jan 7 2010, 06:50 PM
lin00b
post Jan 7 2010, 09:01 PM

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QUOTE(Mesosmagnet @ Jan 7 2010, 05:33 PM)
Funny how everyone keeps insisting that our recessive genes are more likely to bring harm rather than good.

I'm not saying that they don't bring about harmful traits, but that's the way nature works. Go through a huge bunch of combination until it comes up with a good one to proceed on. Or am I wrong?

Another point to ponder on.. if inbreeding is bad.. then why are we not mating with apes? Humans all in some way related to each other, so we should not be mating among ourselves. And if you go back to a time when there were only a few humans, it is very very obvious that inbreeding did take place, and that is what probably allowed each ethnicity to develop unique likenesses to suit the way of life and environment. eg. Those in sunny countries developed skin to survive in such an environment, people in cold developed sharper noses to be able to breathe in colder air without damaging their inner nasal cavities. If we really look at each ethnicity unique feature we can clearly see evolution. Which very likely would not be present if we continually resisted inbreeding.

I look forward to a rebuttal statement. ^^

EDIT: thanks for the reading material. After reading that I would like to point out that the inbreeding that is being discussed here is not selective inbreeding, as in we do not get to choose which to keep which to be rid of, but rather let nature be the judge of what to keep and what to be rid of. And obviously I am not suggesting that we should ONLY practice inbreeding, as other humans also posses traits that makes a super elite human. And by incorporating them by cross breeding and removing unwanted genes through inbreeding the human race is likely to progress through evolution much faster. =P
*
by saying "there are only few humans last time, therefore they inbreed" it shows you do not understand evolution.

understand this.

EVOLUTION IS NOT DISCRETE.

and at present, since human and ape are separate species, they will not produce any fertile offspring (if they produce any at all)
~lynn~
post Jan 7 2010, 09:30 PM

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QUOTE(Mesosmagnet @ Jan 7 2010, 05:33 PM)
Funny how everyone keeps insisting that our recessive genes are more likely to bring harm rather than good.

I'm not saying that they don't bring about harmful traits, but that's the way nature works. Go through a huge bunch of combination until it comes up with a good one to proceed on. Or am I wrong?

Another point to ponder on.. if inbreeding is bad.. then why are we not mating with apes? Humans all in some way related to each other, so we should not be mating among ourselves. And if you go back to a time when there were only a few humans, it is very very obvious that inbreeding did take place, and that is what probably allowed each ethnicity to develop unique likenesses to suit the way of life and environment. eg. Those in sunny countries developed skin to survive in such an environment, people in cold developed sharper noses to be able to breathe in colder air without damaging their inner nasal cavities. If we really look at each ethnicity unique feature we can clearly see evolution. Which very likely would not be present if we continually resisted inbreeding.

I look forward to a rebuttal statement. ^^

EDIT: thanks for the reading material. After reading that I would like to point out that the inbreeding that is being discussed here is not selective inbreeding, as in we do not get to choose which to keep which to be rid of, but rather let nature be the judge of what to keep and what to be rid of. And obviously I am not suggesting that we should ONLY practice inbreeding, as other humans also posses traits that makes a super elite human. And by incorporating them by cross breeding and removing unwanted genes through inbreeding the human race is likely to progress through evolution much faster. =P
*
Well if there's anyone who's willing and choose to mate with an ape, I don't see why not. It is that person's personal choice and freedom to do so.
However, the thought that anyone who find an ape attractive and is turned on by it is rather disturbing.
But then again, there's nothing new I suppose. After all, there are people marrying their pillow/videogame character.

Are there any law that forbids one from mating with animal? Maybe there is. Unnatural sex perhaps?

QUOTE(thesupertramp @ Jan 7 2010, 06:49 PM)
Did you read the question that was asked? I was answering a question, not discussing incest. If you have a problem with that, you should have asked why was that question asked in this thread.
*
Okay.
thesupertramp
post Jan 7 2010, 11:28 PM

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QUOTE(~lynn~ @ Jan 7 2010, 09:30 PM)
Are there any law that forbids one from mating with animal? Maybe there is. Unnatural sex perhaps?
*
Bestiality aka zoophilia is illegal in most countries. I don't know the exact reasoning but I would hazard a guess that it is because of health and safety reasons. Infectious diseases could be spread that way. Like AIDS (possibly, not saying it is). It is also mistreatment of animals, because I doubt they want to "get it on" with you. Most anyway. biggrin.gif
kingster113
post Jan 8 2010, 12:06 AM

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QUOTE(Mesosmagnet @ Jan 7 2010, 05:33 PM)
Funny how everyone keeps insisting that our recessive genes are more likely to bring harm rather than good.

I'm not saying that they don't bring about harmful traits, but that's the way nature works. Go through a huge bunch of combination until it comes up with a good one to proceed on. Or am I wrong?

Another point to ponder on.. if inbreeding is bad.. then why are we not mating with apes? Humans all in some way related to each other, so we should not be mating among ourselves. And if you go back to a time when there were only a few humans, it is very very obvious that inbreeding did take place, and that is what probably allowed each ethnicity to develop unique likenesses to suit the way of life and environment. eg. Those in sunny countries developed skin to survive in such an environment, people in cold developed sharper noses to be able to breathe in colder air without damaging their inner nasal cavities. If we really look at each ethnicity unique feature we can clearly see evolution. Which very likely would not be present if we continually resisted inbreeding.

I look forward to a rebuttal statement. ^^

EDIT: thanks for the reading material. After reading that I would like to point out that the inbreeding that is being discussed here is not selective inbreeding, as in we do not get to choose which to keep which to be rid of, but rather let nature be the judge of what to keep and what to be rid of. And obviously I am not suggesting that we should ONLY practice inbreeding, as other humans also posses traits that makes a super elite human. And by incorporating them by cross breeding and removing unwanted genes through inbreeding the human race is likely to progress through evolution much faster. =P
*
Why are you not mating with apes? ohmy.gif
100n
post Jan 8 2010, 04:35 PM

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"Why are you not mating with apes?"

Because they will chew ur cock...tongue.gif
SUSDickson Poon
post Jan 10 2010, 06:40 AM

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This thread must be the biggest rickroll on Ph.D corner ever. A whole bunch of people discussing genetics and evolution WITHOUT understanding genetics and evolution.

Too many mental masturbators here who can't be arsed to get real knowledge.

WTF! Ph.D section populated by UNEDUCATED people??? You come here to learn but instead you get rickrolled!

This post has been edited by Dickson Poon: Jan 10 2010, 06:45 AM
TSMesosmagnet
post Jan 11 2010, 01:46 AM

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@Dickson Poon
I don't have a degree in biology or genetics, all I have is a SPM cert with below average grades.That is why this thread was created. So that I could understand a little more about the topic in question. But you who claim to be better educated than us, has not contributed with a single piece of your knowledge.

The world as we know it has been defined by human beings. And being defined by human beings, means there are many flaws in the definition. That is why we ask questions, no matter how dumb you think they might be, only by asking questions are we able to further increase our understanding about this world we live in.

That aside, I read another article on inbreeding, the articles stresses the downside of inbreeding. But it has a few minor points that support the idea that inbreeding will result in accelerated evolution.

http://canaries.org.uk/download/inbreeding.html
SUSDickson Poon
post Jan 11 2010, 05:12 PM

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QUOTE(Mesosmagnet @ Jan 11 2010, 01:46 AM)
@Dickson Poon
I don't have a degree in biology or genetics, all I have is a SPM cert with below average grades.That is why this thread was created. So that I could understand a little more about the topic in question. But you who claim to be better educated than us, has not contributed with a single piece of your knowledge.

The world as we know it has been defined by human beings. And being defined by human beings, means there are many flaws in the definition. That is why we ask questions, no matter how dumb you think they might be, only by asking questions are we able to further increase our understanding about this world we live in.

That aside, I read another article on inbreeding, the articles stresses the downside of inbreeding. But it has a few minor points that support the idea that inbreeding will result in accelerated evolution.

http://canaries.org.uk/download/inbreeding.html
*
Even if the world were "defined" by human beings, that does not excuse your selective perception.

You are so fixated with the idea of in-breeding as the origin of evolution that you purposely ignore the proven facts that in-breeding in actual fact renders an entire population of animals genetically UNVIABLE. Not only do birth defects and genetic handicaps occur more often, there are more spontaneous abortions, stillbirths, and increased chances of disease.

The overall effect of inbreeding is to increase the mortality rate of a species and reduce its viable reproductives. This leads to a decrease in numbers, leading to extinction.


Since you have below average grades in SPM, I highly recommend that you start studying again, read more books, and get in touch with mentors who can correct your flights of fancy by teaching you more rational, critical thinking.

At present your act of trawling through texts with selective perception just to support your nuggets of horseshit are truly disgusting.


Added on January 11, 2010, 5:13 pm
QUOTE(~lynn~ @ Jan 7 2010, 09:30 PM)
Well if there's anyone who's willing and choose to mate with an ape, I don't see why not. It is that person's personal choice and freedom to do so.
However, the thought that anyone who find an ape attractive and is turned on by it is rather disturbing.
But then again, there's nothing new I suppose. After all, there are people marrying their pillow/videogame character.

Are there any law that forbids one from mating with animal? Maybe there is. Unnatural sex perhaps?
Okay.
*
There is only one law that forbids sex with animals.

And that is the Human Law.

This post has been edited by Dickson Poon: Jan 11 2010, 05:16 PM
ThanatosSwiftfire
post Jan 11 2010, 05:29 PM

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If you want to accelerate evolution, science & society needs to stop creating processes/services that gives room and allow for the average/weak to live and thrive.

Evolution happens, when nature is allowed to function, Our society today is overriding natures role, in every way possible. Even the trait that everyone wants to think as the main trait for success today isn't really actively promoted. Society want smart/intelligence/knowledgeable people, yet it creates systems for the underperforming, for the useless, and refuses to eliminate the weak.

So, it's not inbreeding or whatsover. It's just science f***ing with what nature was supposed to do.

If nature really was about survival of the fittest, get rid of medicine. That would help get rid of alot of weaklings in the human race.
SUSDickson Poon
post Jan 11 2010, 06:12 PM

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QUOTE(ThanatosSwiftfire @ Jan 11 2010, 05:29 PM)
If you want to accelerate evolution, science & society needs to stop creating processes/services that gives room and allow for the average/weak to live and thrive.

Evolution happens, when nature is allowed to function, Our society today is overriding natures role, in every way possible. Even the trait that everyone wants to think as the main trait for success today isn't really actively promoted. Society want smart/intelligence/knowledgeable people, yet it creates systems for the underperforming, for the useless, and refuses to eliminate the weak.

So, it's not inbreeding or whatsover. It's just science f***ing with what nature was supposed to do.

If nature really was about survival of the fittest, get rid of medicine. That would help get rid of alot of weaklings in the human race.
*
Edited, need to put some proper thought into response.

This post has been edited by Dickson Poon: Jan 11 2010, 06:20 PM
ThanatosSwiftfire
post Jan 11 2010, 06:55 PM

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QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Jan 11 2010, 06:12 PM)
Edited, need to put some proper thought into response.
*
I feel honored. biggrin.gif take your time.
wKkaY
post Jan 11 2010, 09:42 PM

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QUOTE(ThanatosSwiftfire @ Jan 11 2010, 08:29 PM)
Evolution happens, when nature is allowed to function, Our society today is overriding natures role, in every way possible. Even the trait that everyone wants to think as the main trait for success today isn't really actively promoted. Society want smart/intelligence/knowledgeable people, yet it creates systems for the underperforming, for the useless, and refuses to eliminate the weak.
*

Not just intelligent folks, but beautiful ones too. Make-up and fashion interferes with natural sexual selection smile.gif
SUSDickson Poon
post Jan 11 2010, 11:39 PM

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QUOTE(wKkaY @ Jan 11 2010, 09:42 PM)
Not just intelligent folks, but beautiful ones too. Make-up and fashion interferes with natural sexual selection smile.gif
*
But that's sexual selection - for intelligence and mental acuity - and that furthers evolution also.
kingster113
post Jan 12 2010, 01:53 AM

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And he still hasn't answer my question why is he not having sex with apes? Cuz he asked "why are we not having sex with apes?".

Meso, answers pleaseee....
thesupertramp
post Jan 12 2010, 02:18 AM

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QUOTE(ThanatosSwiftfire @ Jan 11 2010, 05:29 PM)
If you want to accelerate evolution, science & society needs to stop creating processes/services that gives room and allow for the average/weak to live and thrive.

Evolution happens, when nature is allowed to function, Our society today is overriding natures role, in every way possible. Even the trait that everyone wants to think as the main trait for success today isn't really actively promoted. Society want smart/intelligence/knowledgeable people, yet it creates systems for the underperforming, for the useless, and refuses to eliminate the weak.

So, it's not inbreeding or whatsover. It's just science f***ing with what nature was supposed to do.

If nature really was about survival of the fittest, get rid of medicine. That would help get rid of alot of weaklings in the human race.
*
I disagree.

Modern medicine has increased human life expectancy by leaps and bounds. That, surely, must mean an increase in survivability? Living longer will allow a longer period for reproduction as well as nurturing the young. How can that not increase survivability?

Furthermore, many diseases can affect almost every human given the chance, regardless of how strong the individual is. And a car can hit anyone, even Arnold Schwarzenegger will need a orthopod when a bus hits him (or a funeral parlour).
ThanatosSwiftfire
post Jan 12 2010, 08:00 AM

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QUOTE(thesupertramp @ Jan 12 2010, 02:18 AM)
I disagree.

Modern medicine has increased human life expectancy by leaps and bounds. That, surely, must mean an increase in survivability? Living longer will allow a longer period for reproduction as well as nurturing the young. How can that not increase survivability?

Furthermore, many diseases can affect almost every human given the chance, regardless of how strong the individual is. And a car can hit anyone, even Arnold Schwarzenegger will need a orthopod when a bus hits him (or a funeral parlour).
*
Point 1. Modern medicine increase life expectancy is an ARTIFICIAL augmentation of our lifespan. It doesn't IMPROVE our basic genetic pool, our our fundamental health. We've grown so reliant on it, I would go as far to say it has HINDERED natural selection of those who have better genes.

Point 2. Yes. But the stronger immune system has a higher chance to survive (if under no medical intervention), and on a macro level when a higher percent of those with stronger immune system survives, the overall quality of immune systems in human improve (FYI, this is before any medical intervention)

I'm not saying medicine is bad per se, but when discussed in the context of evolution, medicine&science is meddling with what evolution should be doing.

This post has been edited by ThanatosSwiftfire: Jan 12 2010, 08:01 AM
lin00b
post Jan 12 2010, 08:56 AM

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QUOTE(thesupertramp @ Jan 12 2010, 02:18 AM)
I disagree.

Modern medicine has increased human life expectancy by leaps and bounds. That, surely, must mean an increase in survivability? Living longer will allow a longer period for reproduction as well as nurturing the young. How can that not increase survivability?

Furthermore, many diseases can affect almost every human given the chance, regardless of how strong the individual is. And a car can hit anyone, even Arnold Schwarzenegger will need a orthopod when a bus hits him (or a funeral parlour).
*
look at it this way, science and technology are the something like the "NEP of evolution" they artificially protect us. now, for any reason if these technology is removed from our daily lives, imagine how vulnerable we will be to the elements and disease.

some individual are more resistant to disease than others. some people seemed to catch whatever sickness thats the flavor of the month. others rarely even get a sore throat. and some community in africa is highly resistant to malaria. etc etc.


Added on January 12, 2010, 8:58 am
QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Jan 11 2010, 11:39 PM)
But that's sexual selection - for intelligence and mental acuity - and that furthers evolution also.
*
not really, if you look at male preference, it has gone from plump female circa 1500 to slim female circa 2000. so if there are evolution, where would the selection pressure be? towards plump or slim individuals? and you cannot tell what the preference will be at 2500. the period is also too short to produce any meaningful results

This post has been edited by lin00b: Jan 12 2010, 08:58 AM
TSMesosmagnet
post Jan 12 2010, 04:13 PM

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user posted image

I came across this picture many times while doing some reading. This picture states the facts that a recessive deleterious allele will become dominant in offspring born of 2 carriers of the deleterious allele. But it seems to have removed the other possible outcomes.
Aa + AA = { AA, Aa, Aa } the assumption is that the deleterious allele is more likely to be passed on rather than the dominant beneficial allele? According to probability shouldn't the chances of offspring with AA and Aa be equal?
Aa + Aa = { aa } and where have the other possible outcomes gone? Aa + Aa = { AA, Aa }. Yet again in terms of probability the chances of producing offspring with Aa should be higher than aa and AA.

Now lets define a new diagram: (only inbreeding, no crossbreeding)

First Stage :
AA + Aa = { AA, AA, Aa, Aa }

Second stage :
AA + AA = { AA, AA, AA,AA }
Aa + Aa = { AA, Aa, Aa, aa }

Third stage :
AA + aa = { AA, Aa, Aa, aa } but if natural selection were to be present aa wouldn't get a chance to reproduce no? **
Aa + aa = { Aa, aa, aa, Aa }


**Over time, natural selection weeds deleterious alleles out of a population — when the dominant deleterious alleles are expressed, they lower the carrier's fitness, and fewer copies wind up in the next generation

Already by the 3rd generation we see that the AA individuals are more abundant than individuals with Aa and aa.
I am assuming that we can compute the outcome of genetic drift using probability.

Another point to ponder : what if there were a recessive beneficial allele? What outcome would we get then?
SUSDickson Poon
post Jan 12 2010, 05:46 PM

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QUOTE(lin00b @ Jan 12 2010, 08:56 AM)
not really, if you look at male preference, it has gone from plump female circa 1500 to slim female circa 2000. so if there are evolution, where would the selection pressure be? towards plump or slim individuals? and you cannot tell what the preference will be at 2500. the period is also too short to produce any meaningful results
*
What is the basis of your assertion that male preferences have shifted from plump women to slim women?

Also if the time period of human history up to the present and five hundred years in the future is too short to produce any meaningful results in human evolution, then what's all the fuss about humans not evolving anyway? The time scale we are talking about would still be too short despite the technological advances and changes in human lifestyle.


Added on January 12, 2010, 6:08 pmI'll make this simple, Mesos.

I can point out the flaws and mistakes in your reasoning.

But what are you going to pay me for it? What do I get out of it?

QUOTE(Mesosmagnet @ Jan 12 2010, 04:13 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

Added on January 12, 2010, 6:09 pmOn the other hand I could perform a psychoanalysis of your writing for absolutely free!

laugh.gif

This post has been edited by Dickson Poon: Jan 12 2010, 06:09 PM
thesupertramp
post Jan 12 2010, 11:00 PM

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QUOTE(ThanatosSwiftfire @ Jan 12 2010, 08:00 AM)
Point 1. Modern medicine increase life expectancy is an ARTIFICIAL augmentation of our lifespan. It doesn't IMPROVE our basic genetic pool, our our fundamental health. We've grown so reliant on it, I would go as far to say it has HINDERED natural selection of those who have better genes.

Point 2. Yes. But the stronger immune system has a higher chance to survive (if under no medical intervention), and on a macro level when a higher percent of those with stronger immune system survives, the overall quality of immune systems in human improve (FYI, this is before any medical intervention)

I'm not saying medicine is bad per se, but when discussed in the context of evolution, medicine&science is meddling with what evolution should be doing.
*
QUOTE(lin00b @ Jan 12 2010, 08:56 AM)
look at it this way, science and technology are the something like the "NEP of evolution" they artificially protect us. now, for any reason if these technology is removed from our daily lives, imagine how vulnerable we will be to the elements and disease.

some individual are more resistant to disease than others. some people seemed to catch whatever sickness thats the flavor of the month. others rarely even get a sore throat. and some community in africa is highly resistant to malaria. etc etc.
I still disagree. Humans have used medicine to treat themselves for thousands of years, possibly millions. Other animals have shown similar traits as well (dogs eating grass). Now, although Lamarckism is distinct from Natural Selection, it does play a significant role in a species's survival.

It is true that genetically our genes might not be "better" due to medicine, but the use of modern medicine can be equated to similar traits demonstrated by other primates, such as calling out when they see danger so that their entire group can flee. Thus, both forms can be said to provide evolutionary advantage to a species, but Darwin's evidence seem to suggest team work is more important. In The Descent of Man, he noted that tribes that demonstrated better team work usually triumph over those that do not.
lin00b
post Jan 13 2010, 12:43 AM

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QUOTE(Mesosmagnet @ Jan 12 2010, 04:13 PM)
user posted image

I came across this picture many times while doing some reading. This picture states the facts that a recessive deleterious allele will become dominant in offspring born of 2 carriers of the deleterious allele. But it seems to have removed the other possible outcomes.
Aa + AA = { AA, Aa, Aa } the assumption is that the deleterious allele is more likely to be passed on rather than the dominant beneficial allele? According to probability shouldn't the chances of offspring with AA and Aa be equal?
Aa + Aa = { aa } and where have the other possible outcomes gone? Aa + Aa = { AA, Aa }. Yet again in terms of probability the chances of producing offspring with Aa should be higher than aa and AA.

Now lets define a new diagram: (only inbreeding, no crossbreeding)

First Stage :
AA + Aa = { AA, AA, Aa, Aa }

Second stage :
AA + AA = { AA, AA, AA,AA }
Aa + Aa = { AA, Aa, Aa, aa }

Third stage :
AA + aa = { AA, Aa, Aa, aa } but if natural selection were to be present aa wouldn't get a chance to reproduce no? **
Aa + aa = { Aa, aa, aa, Aa }
**Over time, natural selection weeds deleterious alleles out of a population — when the dominant deleterious alleles are expressed, they lower the carrier's fitness, and fewer copies wind up in the next generation

Already by the 3rd generation we see that the AA individuals are more abundant than individuals with Aa and aa.
I am assuming that we can compute the outcome of genetic drift using probability.

Another point to ponder : what if there were a recessive beneficial allele? What outcome would we get then?
*
A being the dominant allele will suppress the recessive a. so Aa while carrying bad genes, the bad quality is not express and the individual live a healthy life.

so as far as quality of life is concern, Aa and AA has no difference. while aa is catastrophic. in case of a large population, the chance of aa being expressed is significantly lower than AA or Aa as opposed to a small sample size of inbreeding.

as shown in the your example, by the third generation, 3/8 has aa. (1/8 at 2nd)

comparatively in crossbreeding, the chance of aa being expressed is significantly lowered.

not not neccessary all a is bad, there is a possibility that ou have some recessive genes that are good. but life prefer to err on the side of safety. its basic instinct. you prefer to take a risk if its to protect something you already have rather than to take a risk to get something that may benefit you.


Added on January 13, 2010, 12:51 am
QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Jan 12 2010, 05:46 PM)
What is the basis of your assertion that male preferences have shifted from plump women to slim women?

Also if the time period of human history up to the present and five hundred years in the future is too short to produce any meaningful results in human evolution, then what's all the fuss about humans not evolving anyway? The time scale we are talking about would still be too short despite the technological advances and changes in human lifestyle.]
see difference from renaissance to present day

also

some article

now, i am not saying plump women are unattractive or vice versa, but society in general views slimness (hour glass) as the ideal female figure now, versus the plumpier version as the ideal 500 years ago.

there are numerous psychological and economical reasoning into why this happened, if you are interested in learning more.

yes, current age with medicine and technology is too short to produce any significance in evolution pressure, but if the current trend continues, we will see human as a species rely more and more on technology and medicine, and less on any evolution that occur (ie, the one that is more susceptible to illness get more or less the same chance to reproduce as the healthy one)


Added on January 13, 2010, 1:04 am
QUOTE(thesupertramp @ Jan 12 2010, 11:00 PM)
I still disagree. Humans have used medicine to treat themselves for thousands of years, possibly millions. Other animals have shown similar traits as well (dogs eating grass). Now, although Lamarckism is distinct from Natural Selection, it does play a significant role in a species's survival.

It is true that genetically our genes might not be "better" due to medicine, but the use of modern medicine can be equated to similar traits demonstrated by other primates, such as calling out when they see danger so that their entire group can flee. Thus, both forms can be said to provide evolutionary advantage to a species, but Darwin's evidence seem to suggest team work is more important. In The Descent of Man, he noted that tribes that demonstrated better team work usually triumph over those that do not.
*
naturally occuring medicine dont usually have as wide and deep effect as artificial medicine. and knowledge of medicine is not genetically passed on (at least not for human)

lamarckism does not play any role in species survival, because it does not happen. it is not an "alternative" path of evolution, it is a mistaken path of evolution.

you have thick pads on your fingers and feet because your body has the ability to develop harder skins at places where more stress is applied. your fingers are more flexible because you practise it more and your muscle and tendons did not harden. these are naturally occuring adaptation that you as an individual can perform. at no time is this information passed on to your offsprings. a baby is always born is soft smooth soles even though their parents are hard laborers with calloused feet and hands.

AND, grass is not "medicine" to dogs, at least not in the sense you are implying.
dog eat grass


This post has been edited by lin00b: Jan 13 2010, 01:11 AM
TSMesosmagnet
post Jan 13 2010, 03:25 PM

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@lin00b
QUOTE
A being the dominant allele will suppress the recessive a. so Aa while carrying bad genes, the bad quality is not express and the individual live a healthy life.

so as far as quality of life is concern, Aa and AA has no difference. while aa is catastrophic. in case of a large population, the chance of aa being expressed is significantly lower than AA or Aa as opposed to a small sample size of inbreeding.

as shown in the your example, by the third generation, 3/8 has aa. (1/8 at 2nd)

comparatively in crossbreeding, the chance of aa being expressed is significantly lowered.

not not neccessary all a is bad, there is a possibility that ou have some recessive genes that are good. but life prefer to err on the side of safety. its basic instinct. you prefer to take a risk if its to protect something you already have rather than to take a risk to get something that may benefit you.
Just pointing out something regarding my example that I did not mention previously. My diagram was intentionally flawed because I left out similar outcomes. But if the frequency of allele is calculated :
Assumptions
- each pair of parents produces 4 offspring
- offspring consist of equal number of male and female (for reproduction purposes)
- and that the cumulative number of each type of allele in the offspring is double the number of each type of allele in the parent
- each offspring mates with both of the offspring of opposite sex

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


The frequency of recessive allele doesn't change. But applying this theory:
Over time, natural selection weeds deleterious alleles out of a population — when the dominant deleterious alleles are expressed, they lower the carrier's fitness, and fewer copies wind up in the next generation
Offspring with aa will not be able to reproduce, thus the frequency of the recessive deleterious allele will be reduced by 5%.

It's true that through crossbreeding the chances of aa being expressed is significantly lowered, but only if we assume that the current population is comprised of more AA than Aa. If the opposite was true and there is more Aa than AA the chances of producing aa is increased rather than decreased. (Does this make sense? I'm a little bit confused)

Regarding your final statement. I totally agree that our current human population poses this instinct of protecting what we have. This is probably why natural selection doesnt work very well when human beings are concerned. While in the animal population, a weak lion cub which cannot cope with the harshness of the environment is regrettably left behind. Even though I want to accept the fact that it is natures way of functioning I cant help but to pity the ones left behind. And I think this is where we distinguish ourselves from the animal kind, even at the cost of evolution.



lin00b
post Jan 13 2010, 07:45 PM

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QUOTE(Mesosmagnet @ Jan 13 2010, 03:25 PM)
.
It's true that through crossbreeding the chances of aa being expressed is significantly lowered, but only if we assume that the current population is comprised of more AA than Aa. If the opposite was true and there is more Aa than AA the chances of producing aa is increased rather than decreased. (Does this make sense? I'm a little bit confused)

Regarding your final statement. I totally agree that our current human population poses this instinct of protecting what we have. This is probably why natural selection doesnt work very well when human beings are concerned. While in the animal population, a weak lion cub which cannot cope with the harshness of the environment is regrettably left behind. Even though I want to accept the fact that it is natures way of functioning I cant help but to pity the ones left behind. And I think this is where we distinguish ourselves from the animal kind, even at the cost of evolution.
result of evolution is not to reduce bad genes, it is to reduce the expression of bad genes.

if bad genes are dominant - hence frequently expressed, that particular community will eventually be dead. if the bad genes are recessive, hence seldom expressed, the community will survive. if this surviving community resort to interbreeding, the odds of these bad genes being expressed is increased, and that is bad.

an interesting point is that majority of our genes are actually not expressed in any way. they may be junk, or extremely recessive

while you are referring to protecting the individual, i'm referring to protecting the species and community. the whole community suffer if the quality of the offspring produced is of frequently low quality. it is arguably better to allow only the better/fitter individual to reproduce and increasing the quality of the output. at least that's nature's way.
thesupertramp
post Jan 13 2010, 09:28 PM

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QUOTE(lin00b @ Jan 13 2010, 12:43 AM)
naturally occuring medicine dont usually have as wide and deep effect as artificial medicine. and knowledge of medicine is not genetically passed on (at least not for human)

lamarckism does not play any role in species survival, because it does not happen. it is not an "alternative" path of evolution, it is a mistaken path of evolution.

you have thick pads on your fingers and feet because your body has the ability to develop harder skins at places where more stress is applied. your fingers are more flexible because you practise it more and your muscle and tendons did not harden. these are naturally occuring adaptation that you as an individual can perform. at no time is this information passed on to your offsprings. a baby is always born is soft smooth soles even though their parents are hard laborers with calloused feet and hands.

AND, grass is not "medicine" to dogs, at least not in the sense you are implying.
dog eat grass
*
My point isn't about the differences between the effects of natural and modern medicine. The point is that humans have the unique ability to use tools. Modern medicine can be seen as one of humankind's greatest tools. Arguing medicine is counter productive to evolution would be similar (perhaps the same) as arguing the invention of guns have made the weak able to hunt for food, when in fact they should be left to die. Or the use of clothes have ensured the survival of those with less adipose tissues.

The use of tools is part of our evolutionary history and since we still exist, it can be said that it has served us well so far.

I was not referring to Lamarckism in its traditional sense. Genes cannot be altered, I know that. I was referring to the passing on of knowledge. We do not pass on knowledge of medicine genetically, but we do so in the form of books, lectures and teachings. In a sense, this is not Lamarckism, but it is close. We acquire that knowledge throughout life and pass it on. This ability to pass on knowledge is immensely significant in many species's survival.

Perhaps this is more akin to the Meme theory. If it is, then that further supports my point as modern medicine has grown and flourished.
lin00b
post Jan 13 2010, 10:05 PM

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QUOTE(thesupertramp @ Jan 13 2010, 09:28 PM)
My point isn't about the differences between the effects of natural and modern medicine. The point is that humans have the unique ability to use tools. Modern medicine can be seen as one of humankind's greatest tools. Arguing medicine is counter productive to evolution would be similar (perhaps the same) as arguing the invention of guns have made the weak able to hunt for food, when in fact they should be left to die. Or the use of clothes have ensured the survival of those with less adipose tissues.

The use of tools is part of our evolutionary history and since we still exist, it can be said that it has served us well so far.

I was not referring to Lamarckism in its traditional sense. Genes cannot be altered, I know that. I was referring to the passing on of knowledge. We do not pass on knowledge of medicine genetically, but we do so in the form of books, lectures and teachings. In a sense, this is not Lamarckism, but it is close. We acquire that knowledge throughout life and pass it on. This ability to pass on knowledge is immensely significant in many species's survival.

Perhaps this is more akin to the Meme theory. If it is, then that further supports my point as modern medicine has grown and flourished.
*
all those other "counter point" you use are actually true. although the exact line can be blurred. whatever artificial tools we make is not a result of our evolution. and by continuing to use them, we are in a sense limiting whatever natural selective pressure on use to be better biologically.

not to say tools are bad, but looking at a strictly evolution point of view, it is creating a weaker species biologically.

passing of knowledge is not lamarckism in any sense. say engineering parents, son may grow up to a profession that does not use engineering skills at all. whatever skill that the parents frequently use and depend upon is not transferred on to offspring

the passing of community-wide knowledge is good, but is fragile. knowledge is easily lost during catastrophes. after which the community has to start from a lower knowledge level, this is because those information is not guaranteed to pass on to future generation, unlike evolutionary genetic information.
TSMesosmagnet
post Jan 13 2010, 10:49 PM

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Even if humans were to cross-breed, wouldn't we one day all posses the same recessive genes? And when that happens, won't the same effect of inbreeding be shown in those who cross-breed? So are we just trying to avoid the inevitable?

QUOTE(thesupertramp @ Jan 13 2010, 09:28 PM)
My point isn't about the differences between the effects of natural and modern medicine. The point is that humans have the unique ability to use tools. Modern medicine can be seen as one of humankind's greatest tools. Arguing medicine is counter productive to evolution would be similar (perhaps the same) as arguing the invention of guns have made the weak able to hunt for food, when in fact they should be left to die. Or the use of clothes have ensured the survival of those with less adipose tissues.

The use of tools is part of our evolutionary history and since we still exist, it can be said that it has served us well so far.

I was not referring to Lamarckism in its traditional sense. Genes cannot be altered, I know that. I was referring to the passing on of knowledge. We do not pass on knowledge of medicine genetically, but we do so in the form of books, lectures and teachings. In a sense, this is not Lamarckism, but it is close. We acquire that knowledge throughout life and pass it on. This ability to pass on knowledge is immensely significant in many species's survival.

Perhaps this is more akin to the Meme theory. If it is, then that further supports my point as modern medicine has grown and flourished.
*
Medicine, weapons, and even clothes hinders evolution, in some way. Because these tools allowed unfit individuals(in the physical sense) to survive and reproduce. Which would not happen if nature had her way. But looking at it from a different point of view, it is probably because those unfit individuals(who were not strong physically but posses mental strength) were able to survive, that we are able to enjoy the luxuries of technology in this age and time. In which case Steven Hawking would make a perfect example.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I feel obliged to include this here. I read an article here. The article states :
QUOTE
..rats and mice had plenty of mates to choose from and harmful DNA mutations were rapidly eliminated from the gene pool.

That statement there confuses me greatly. So far in my reading, I've noted that the only way harmful DNA mutations / deleterious allele were able to be eliminated or suppressed is by removing the particular individual that carries the deleterious allele.

What my whole thread was based on was the fact that inbreeding lead to deleterious traits to be expressed thus individuals with those traits were left unable to reproduce. Thus removing the particular deleterious trait from the gene pool. And allowing only those with seemingly perfect genes to continue populating the earth. Or the other way around where previously recessive beneficial traits are expressed allowing them to aid the evolution of mankind. But if cross-breeding removes deleterious traits from the gene pool, then the whole point of this thread has been nullified.

This post has been edited by Mesosmagnet: Jan 13 2010, 10:51 PM
tgrrr
post Jan 14 2010, 06:17 PM

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There are no "perfect" genes. That simply defies the logic of having a genetic algorithm in the first place. If it's all towards reaching perfection, then all we need is an optimizing algorithm.

My point is, genetic algorithm interacts with a constantly changing environment to maximize the species survivability. And when the environment changes, so must the set of "good" genes as they are no longer as "good".

From the algorithm point of view, it's always better to keep as rich a gene pool as it can manage, and to create as many offspring variations as possible in order to maximize the species survivability.
thesupertramp
post Jan 14 2010, 10:53 PM

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QUOTE(lin00b @ Jan 13 2010, 10:05 PM)
all those other "counter point" you use are actually true. although the exact line can be blurred. whatever artificial tools we make is not a result of our evolution. and by continuing to use them, we are in a sense limiting whatever natural selective pressure on use to be better biologically.

not to say tools are bad, but looking at a strictly evolution point of view, it is creating a weaker species biologically.

passing of knowledge is not lamarckism in any sense. say engineering parents, son may grow up to a profession that does not use engineering skills at all. whatever skill that the parents frequently use and depend upon is not transferred on to offspring

the passing of community-wide knowledge is good, but is fragile. knowledge is easily lost during catastrophes. after which the community has to start from a lower knowledge level, this is because those information is not guaranteed to pass on to future generation, unlike evolutionary genetic information.
*
Not necessarily. Evolution did not end when humans started using tools. Because of our use of tools, more importance have been placed on intelligence. And as such, our brain size have increased. The tools only hinder our evolution if you do not consider all the "tools" we invented as part of our lives. Artificial or not, it is now part of humanity. Taking away houses from humans is similar to taking away trees from monkeys. We have evolved such that the essential tools we have created are part of humanity, part of our species. Of course, not all tools are essential, like iPhones. Natural or not, we have thrived with it, just like monkeys have thrived on trees.

A catastrophe can wipe out human knowledge which would set back humanity. True. But the same can happen if a catastrophe wiped out all the trees. Monkeys would then have to evolve to adapt to life on land (non-tree land. What's the word? Terrestrial?), or face extinction. That is what humans would have to do should that happen, regardless of whether we live in houses or in caves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism#La...societal_change
Knowledge can be considered part of our culture. Your example presupposes that all knowledge is passively transferred. Knowledge is more often actively transferred than passively transferred (that is until they invent that Dexter-learning-French-in-his-sleep device). Cultures are very often passed down from one generation to another.

Catastrophe, refer above. Also, with the increase in intelligence, I would presuppose that humans will return to where they were before in a shorter time than it took them the first time. Though I admit, that does not mean it will not take millions of years, just shorter. Hopefully some books survive.

EDIT: Grammar.

This post has been edited by thesupertramp: Jan 14 2010, 10:55 PM

 

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