God is the human imagination in search of comfort..

god for me = image that some con artist use to gain profit/power from others let it be in the past or present.

but if god really exist i think it would be the same god for all religion..
so i think those conflict in "some" countries are immature and are totally those artist i mentioned previously..

I belive in every God =D

How sure are you that those are indeed "miracles"? Can it not be something that can not be explained at that time but will be explained some day in the future? Many ancient tribes thought rain was controlled by God too, but we now know better.

Most of the studies done to test the efficacy of prayers, the prayers were not done for personal gain. Most were double blind studies where the person who prayed did not even know the person being prayed for prior to the experiment.

I can certainly understand those who pray for spiritual purposes or maybe as a method of self reflection. Nothing wrong with that. But would you not agree that the "many reasons" people pray for somehow or other MOSTLY involve personal gain, or the gain of someone they know/like? Things like "May God grant me the strength...", may subconsciously be beneficial for the person's confidence but isn't the reference to God in this case still unjustified? It still is a delusion. Not to mention it still is for personal gain. Why not say "May my tasty spaghetti grant me the strength...?"

To me the premise of prayer lies in that God is omnipotent and hence can help see them through certain periods or events of a person's life. But so far it seems pretty clear that God is either non-omnipotent or he does not like exercising his power on Earth. Or heaven is keeping him very busy. For whatever reason you pray, to me, it is blind faith unless you would continue to pray even if you believe God is non-omnipotent. Or if you are praying to go to heaven when you die (we don't have evidence on whether God can or can't do this).

how sure are u that every single unexplainable occurence that happened so far can be explained by science? this is as vague a topic as the existence of God. and there have been many stories about people receiving what they asked for in prayer without any supernatural occurence. take for an example a person praying for 50 bucks to get through a bad month, the next day he receives 50 bucks from his neighbour or a friend who was suddenly compelled to give him 50 bucks for unknown reasons. things like that have happened, it does not take a supernatural occurence.

people have various motivators, a guy may draw strength from his desire to provide his loved ones with something, or to protect his loved ones from harm. how is it delusional when a guy who is spiritually inclined goes to his God for strength? Is it also delusional to be inspired by people's lives and their devotion? take Jesus, for his sufferings are great, how is it delusional to take an example from his deeds and draw strength from what he went through? this is called inspiration.

if you have closed your book on the matter i guess nothing can make you change your mind on it. but it seems to me that even if you believe in a Creator you dont believe in a Creator that cares for his creations.

there are also days when the man dont get that 50 bucks.

Maybe its luck???
I pray to get money but i dont get any T_______T

God for man: a cage to restrict their actions, even though human has the mind to think...but human is worse than animal since most of the humans use
use their brain to think of ways to achieve their "animal" instinct and so the rights and wrongs are self-defined by individual, so the
so-called god which is created by human is/are actually a set of rules of rights and wrongs for ancient(maybe currently also) human to
follow...to make the world in a "controllable" manner.

God for me: "God" is for those who cannot differentiate between right and wrong and to make them fear if they commit the wrongs. For me, i have mine
own set of rules to follows as long as my action does not cause anyone to suffer, there will be no "God" rules for me as i can determine my
way and moral of living my life.

extra question from me:
what if one day, an alien species comes to earth and tell us that they created us, the human-kind. Would you accept them as god? or u insist that your "god" create u? or just admit that "god" is a imaginary figure to control human behavior?

PEACE

you can wait...

Why not, I can choose to believe or not, people can kill or another and everything independently is the evidence of conflicts not to mention different religions.

The evolution I know does not change the race but the type such as gorilla into human not like a type of dog into the another.

No, it is not as vague as the existence of God. Many claims such as yours have been debunked over the years by new scientific discovery, and the trend does not seem to be reducing. Personally, I think the only mysteries that will not be one day explained will be the ones that do not garner enough attention by the world-at-large to study it.

Furthermore, you seem confused about the difference between probability and possibility. Something that is improbable does not mean it is impossible. It is impossible for a ball to be thrown upwards from Earth without any technological aid to continue upward forever and ever. But it is not impossible to throw a basketball into a hoop blindfolded without prior knowledge of where the hoop is. It is just improbable. If indeed the person sinks the shot, it does not prove God had a hand in it. So the guy who received the 50bucks after praying for it may just be a coincidence, it does not mean that God had intervened. Such an event is improbable but not impossible.

The only way for such an event to be of significance is if it defies statistics derived from research. I'll try to explain with an example. Let's say the 5 year survival rate for pancreatic cancer is 10%. That does not mean that if a patient survived beyond 5 years it would be a miracle, or that God intervened. However, if 10 out of 10 patients in a randomised study, with no extra factors that could have influenced the survival rate, survived beyond 5 years, except they all used prayers, then you can claim prayers worked. No evidence for that thus far. Plenty of the opposite.

The story if Jesus is a great story. Nobody today knows if it is a real story, but nonetheless, his story is inspirational. Nowhere did I say drawing inspiration from his story is delusional. Is it delusional to draw inspiration from the brave fight of Harry Potter against the dementors? I think not.
But the problem here is, these people are drawing inspiration from a story, a deed, not an imaginary ENTITY. There are no general consensus as to the story of God. Even if there is, it is that he is not human, he is above humans. So how does one draw inspiration from God? I may be ignorant on this, so if I am please enlighten me. But is there a story about God himself, not Jesus, that is possible for humans to draw human parallels from?

From what I understand, people (not all) pray to God only because they think he is omnipotent. That is delusional. This is entirely different from drawing inspiration from the story of Jesus, something I am not against.

To the contrary, I have not closed my book. Believers such as yourself seem to think that just because non-believers do not agree with you then we must be close-minded. In fact, I am searching for a reason to believe. But no one seems to be able to provide me with that reason. Of course, I have to argue against every reason provided, until I am unable to, just to make sure that the reason can hold up to it. So far, every attempt has failed. If you are interested, I think those who based their reasoning on science are actually the ones who are open-minded. Since those people are the ones who reason based on the latest available evidence, rather than 2000 year old dogmas.

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Added on January 21, 2010, 7:06 pmThen you convert to Scientology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu


This post has been edited by thesupertramp: Jan 21 2010, 07:06 PM

i think you totally lost... educated Pharaoh

This post has been edited by kubing: Jan 29 2010, 12:20 PM

then you are imagining a god that conform to you ideal of a god, you argument about if you know something there must be someone that know more than you, then there is no absolute greatest being since even the greatest being you can find or imagine must have another being that are superior.

This post has been edited by robertngo: Jan 29 2010, 03:15 PM

if u put things into a probability point of view then i guess everything can be dismissed to a matter of probability - even the start of this universe and the whole matter of existence. then why believe in a God? everything is improbable but not impossible, so to say. it is the same kind of choice of whether to believe in a God or in probability and whether to believe in miracles or just dismiss it as an improbable situation. more a matter of principle and personal experience rather than education or lack of thereof.

if you look at the matter from a christian pov, Jesus is God. or rather, God in human form. it is 'improbable' that his stories are folklore given the amount of contributors and witnesses to the books regarding his life and also the amount of people wanting to spot his faults. and this is the truth the whole of christianity is resting on. the term 'what would Jesus do' came from stories of his life and how he chose to handle things, which set an example to the life of modern christians and opened the possibility of having a personal relationship with a God that loves His creations.

the fact that alot of topics can neither be proven or disproven and is in somehow or other related to the existence of a God Himself makes this difficult to draw a firm conclusion. it's a matter of personal conclusion rather than a general conclusion. but what's the point in faith when it's logical to believe in God through scientific and human reasoning? and if ur looking for a reason to believe by proof and reasoning, i can provide none and i believe no one can unless God decides to show himself and organize a debate session.

The probability we speak of here is not random probability. It illustrates cause and event. it shows that an event follows a cause. That is what I meant by God having no power over what happens. There is no such thing as "believing" in probability.



Unfortunately, the amount of contributors do not make his existence likely. Ever heard of mass hysteria? Plus, up till today's knowledge in science, virgin birth is not improbable, it is impossible, for humans.

In fact, I am fairly certain the writers knew that too and capitalised on it to make his birth seem like a miracle so as to increase its appeal. People needed a reason to believe he is the son of God.

It depends on what you mean by "prove". Can one prove green is green?
By that context EVERYTHING is up for personal interpretation and conclusion. But not in science.

I was not searching for a scientific prove for the existence of God. I am looking for a reason. Reason is not the same as proves. You may have been confused there. I stated I have not found a reason not because I have not found proves. It just means that all the reasons I have came across so far seemed to be unnecessary. Why attribute my $30 to God? Why not my own hard work. Why attribute the collapse of the building to God when a review of the structure of the building would be more useful?

Your point on faith is valid. But why does it have to be a supernatural entity? Luck is not based on the supernatural. My faith in my badminton doubles partner is not either. Hope is a very powerful thing. But why does it have to be based on an all powerful supernatural entity? If the major religions of the world do not claim God to be omnipotent, I would likely have embraced its notion.

frankly ive had this conversation before somewhere on this forums. cause and effect (the butterfly effect) all boils down to physics and the creation of the universe and the laws of physics. and there are 2 schools of thoughts on this matter. the laws of physics are created, or it has always been there. forever.

now if you are of the opinion of the latter, you would probably not believe in the existence of a God. if you believe in the existence of a God who is a creator, who created these laws. there is no reason why he is not able to manipulate these laws. but if u believe in a God who didnt create these laws, then why is He called God? that will make God no better than us, just a being below the law.

the amount of contributors to the bible is of course limited to the disciples. it's not like wikipedia. but the founding of the new churches post-crucifixion which consisted of many who saw him in the flesh and experienced his teachings is undeniable.

of course it is impossible if he is to be called God. or son of God.

and it is not only due to the unnatural circumstances of his birth that led to him being recognised as God. afaik, he did not receive that title from people. do read up more on his life for a better understanding of what you are trying to debunk. it's too much to type here. i suggest the amplified bible for better understanding and linguistic relevance.

you cant prove green is green. it is only after it came to a general agreement between the majority that it is decided and agreed upon that the colour is to be called green.
which is precisely why i said that this is conclusion can only be drawn personally and not generally.

im sorry if ive misunderstood u. indeed, why attribute everything to God? no one said to do that. personally, i believe faith without works is useless. i do something, and if it goes well, i should credit everyone who helped along the way. that doesnt stop me from being pleased with myself. but i would also like to give thanks that things that are out of my control have been favourable towards me. i find that it keeps me from being too self-righteous. and being humans, i believe it's good to stoop down, smell the roses, and just express gratitude for this life. something bad happens, instead of blaming God, we should instead think about what there is in life to learn about this misfortune.

but hey, im just saying.

i hope u're not digressing to animism. but why put faith in something that isnt absolute? why submit your life and spirit to something that isnt all-powerful? if u want to believe in a God that isnt omnipotent and absolute, u might as well believe that kim jong-il is a God.

Having the ability to create something does not mean you will have absolute power over it. You can create a nuclear bomb and still be blasted away by it. I am no discounting the fact that God does not have power over it, but if he does, he either does not exercise that power or he does not do it on Earth. This conclusion is drawn from there being no evidence whatsoever of it ever occurring.



Can I please have your source on those "many who saw him in flesh and experienced his teachings?" I admit I do not have much knowledge on the subject so some readings on these who were lucky enough to have met Jesus would be nice. Thanks.
Of course, this still does not make them immune from the effects of mass hysteria.

And I wasn't debunking his existence. I was debunking the concept of Virgin Birth. Then again, if the Virgin Birth is fictional, who knows what else is made up? After all, there are no evidence for any of it. So it really does not matter if there is more to it or not.



The general consensus exist to aid in our communication. If we all start going against it for no good reason, the whole of human communications will break down.
And the general consensus is something does not exist until it is proven to exist. Not, it exists until its existence is disproved.

Where does animism come into this? I'm not quite sure I even believe there is such a thing as "soul".

Putting faith in something that is not absolute has a lot to do with positive thinking. I'm sure you have heard of the positive thinking cliche especially by motivational speakers. Hoping for a positive outcome gears one towards thinking about the positive outcome. And that can have an immense influence on one's self confidence. The probability of success and failure does not change no matter how much one hopes. But thinking about the good and not the bad, will improve one's performance which would indirectly skew the probabilities.

Using Kim Jong-Il as an example has clearly demonstrated your biased views. If Jesus was proven to exist and to his own admission he is no Son of God, will you still follow his teachings and draw inspiration from his story? And perhaps idolise him? Is there anything wrong with idolising a human and perhaps to your own terms, call him God? Is it wrong to have faith in the guidance of your idol (not literally, but through their teachings)?

I think the question should be, why believe in something you think is omnipotent, but know nothing of? How will that guide you? How will that make you a better person in this here and now?

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This post has been edited by marsalee: Nov 13 2010, 08:07 PM

As per experience, God (or whatever others choose to believe) seldom grants selfish prayers, if not never.

This post has been edited by ZeratoS: Feb 3 2010, 08:50 PM

Have you read the Time Traveler's Wife?

So I take it you don't believe in Free Will, then?

Studies suggest that God does not grant ANY prayers at all.

its just a huge big imaginary friend.