This article was circulated among the big 4s. Some of you might have read it. I am just sharing. Maybe something we can ponder about

A professional mistake

Your alarm rings, signalling another brand new day. You get up, looking
forward for another new day of challenge, another new day to learn.
After washing up, you put on your office outfit, giving you that
professional look, one that you believe many out there envy. Breakfast
follows (perhaps), and you head off to your office. You're one of the
earliest to arrive, ahead of all your superior and when they come in
later, they greet you and you feel all charged up for another productive
day. Plenty to do and learn and hence, you are prepared to stay back
late to do all that is necessary.

If you're currently doing a degree in finance, accounting or law, the
above is probably what you've been waiting for all these years. You work
your ass off (well... most of you) in university because it's your dream
to join one of those big glamorous firms out there in the market.
Lawyers and accountants are the usual suspects for this curse. Once
graduated, all of them will run like headless chicken towards those big
firms. If you're an accounting student... you want to be an auditor in
one of the Big-4 right?

Well, if you do make it, it's like a dream come true. In such firms, you
get a personal computer, maybe a notebook (wow!). All your stationeries
are free, and it's also the first time you step into a 'pantry', where
you can make your own coffee, just like those nice offices in TVB
series. Next, you get an exclusive e-mail, the domain after your name is
not the ordinary @ gmail.com <http://gmail.com/> or @hotmail.com
<http://hotmail.com/> or @ yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com/> ... No, it's
not, it's your-name@a-big-and-glamorous-firm.com
<mailto:your-name@a-big-and-glamorous-firm.com> . You can't wait to tell
that to your friend.

Then comes the feeling of giving a business card with your name on it,
and it's not any other business card, it's one with your name on it,
it's one that signifies you're an employee with
a-big-and-glamorous-firm. And... the word below your name is not a lowly
"accounts executive"... the word below your name is exclusive... the
word below your name is... "Associate". And when your friend gives you
the "Wow, you're an associate with this firm?"... you get into instant
orgasm.

3 or 6 months into your job, you will then be experiencing the euphoria
of saying... I-am-very-busy... I-have-a-lot-work...
I-worked-till-very-late-last-night...
I-can't-make-it-for-the-gathering-cos-I-have-to-work-this-weekend. Yeah,
it's an euphoria because to you, it's a privilege to be busy, it's very
cool to work late, you're very proud to work in during weekends. When
you utter such words, a sense of arrogance and pride radiates from you.
You feel great because working so hard means you learnt a lot of things,
those not in the professional industry somehow looks lowly to you. You
feel big, you feel you're a level smarter than them .Reality will tend
to sink in within 2 years or so, though the duration seems to be getting
shorter and shorter now with the younger generation.

First, you will probably ask yourself, how come a graduate like you must
do all sorts of donkey jobs such as photocopying, checking invoices,
going through pile and pile of documents and filing. You will also be
wondering how come your superior whom you once looked up to have to suck
up to clients. Oh yeah... most all clients are unreasonable.

If you're an accountant, you will probably realise that there is no such
thing called a 'balance' sheet. It's balanced because you did the
balancing act so that your big boss can sign on it and certify it as
'true and fair'.
Yeah... signing on accounts, the job that you once dreamed of... isn't
exactly all a bed of roses. You then realise that you will probably
never reach that "just-need-to-sign-only stage" but hey... it's ok, you
probably hate that job by now. When you tell your client something,
chances are you are just as blur and confuse as them. But you have to
act as though you're an expert because you're the con-sul-tant. This is
just a glimpse of it.

Now, all the late nights and irregular meals will probably caused you to
age 8 years in 2 years. Those I-am-very-busy... I-have-a-lot-work...
I-worked-till-very-late-last-night...
I-can't-make-it-for-the-gathering-cos-I-have-to-work-this-weekend will
take its toll on your body and it will show. You will probably look very
skinny... or very far... you will certainly look old and worn out.
Working late and spending weekends in the office is no longer a cool
thing but absolute stupidity. But hey... you will still have to do it,
because there's still much work to be done.

By now, all your friends who ended up as salesmen or doing other thing
except being a professional, those whom you felt superior to are driving
anything but a proton. But for you, it's time to think whether you
should buy a proton cause your perodua is beginning to give you problem.
Of course, if your father is well-connected fella, things can be
different.
But if you're not, tough luck. You'll be wondering how come you're
generally under-paid. Those exposure and learning curve that you once
craved are no longer relevant. You want to make more money. But unless
you're a partner of the glamorous firm, money can be a lil tough to come
by.

At this point of time, probably after 3, 4 or 5 years, you finally
realised that document you signed when you first joined the glamorous
firm was nothing but lies. Then, you decide to ply your trade in the
commercial world, you leave those glamorous firm. You think joining a
commercial firm will bring about a good change, not knowing that such
move means you switched from being a 'profit centre' to a 'cost centre'.
One of the main effect of the switch is that you will be working doubly
hard compared to the profit centre, which probably includes a lot of
late nights too... but your salary and bonus is much lower compared to
profit centre. What does this mean... a story for another time.

One thing for sure... your morning will now be something like...

Your alarm rings, signalling another day... another weekday. You get up,
after snoozing the alarm a million and one times. You hope today is
Friday, but it's not, and you feel like shit. You think of a million and
one reasons to take MC, but you realised you have to go to office
because you failed to finish the report due today though you stayed till
10pm last night. You tell yourself you need to change job, just like how
you have been telling yourself in the last 1 year. Once in office,
you're in a dilemma cause you want time to go slower so that you can
finish your work but yet, you want time to go faster so that you can
leave the office and go for lunch.

During lunch, you will b**** with your colleagues about work and
probably the bosses. You will all talk about so many people who seem to
be doing so well except for you. You realised you should have done
something else while in university. You realised you may have made a
mistake in life... a mistake in being a professional... you have made...
a professional mistake.

This is life eh, thanks for sharing it

And I thought the accountants and lawyers are making a killing out there. Applies to engineers as well.

This post has been edited by milkshooter: Nov 15 2009, 10:19 PM

omg. next year I will join account firm.

What's the big deal of Big 4? Almost every Accounting grad I know got into Big 4.

Damn. So true. Applies to most bankers as well

nice story!

Whether it is a big deal or not depends on the person's perception. Some prefer it, some don't. The main attraction of joining a Big Four firm is obviously the brand/name itself. It's like if you are a footballer, obviously you want to play for the biggest clubs ie: Barcelona, Man United, AC Milan etc.

The same applies to any profession.
Even scientists spend a lot of time wondering if they could come up with new discovery.

There are price to pay in order to be successful; there's also price of glory.

This post has been edited by TSOM: Nov 15 2009, 11:23 PM

you mean there are people who think otherwise? How naive....

I was once in that kind of environment. I don't see myself in a very privilege positioned professional. Although I'm not in the Accountancy or Finance background but mine would still applicable nonetheless.

I see myself with a career whereby at the end of the day I just need to complete my work and go back home soon after that. I don't simply give away my business card. I only give it when I am "forced" to give as a courtesy matter. I still have a boxful of business card!

Anyway, for those who dreamt of getting comfortable without getting your shirt all sleeved up, that's where and where your perception gone astray. This happens very much often for the freshlings a.k.a fresh graduates.

Regards, Joey

oh man, that reminds me so much bout myself! I felt so lucky to have lifted my foot frm the puddle of mud.

a good one, nonetheless. It's a good reflection to most of us out there (if not the whole thing, snippets of it). This is where you remind yourself - what do 'I' want in life?

one thing for sure,
you cant make money working for people.

so true ... i got a bunch of frens n relatives , grads n joined big4 ... i'd heard them complain n frustrated for the past 1 year but now they r stil thr ...

for me , im unable to grad , my once dream job in big4 is crushed , im sad .... im depressed when i failed to grad , everyone around me seems like so successful , they work around the clock , their rejection on yum cha sessions make me feel im inferior , make me feel im useless coz i had so much time compare to them .... even some of the frens tot hanging out with me is a waste of time .....

but now , im glad its a blessing in disguise , they may haf a glamorous work , in every gathering they'll get the praises ( if they do attend ) , but wat i got is time , something which enable me to hang out with my frens , family n most importantly my love one , i haf the time to go for a annual vacation , i got the time to sit down n relax whenever i had enuf of work , .... but my earning nowadays doesnt seems to less than them .... i stil work hard as they do in different perspective , but i can slow down , can they?

what's the DEFINITION of being PROFESSIONAL here?

i don't know, I think the writer has his points but the way the word PROFESSIONAL was used, I just felt it was inappropriate (refer to the definitions of the word PROFESSIONAL)

IMO the experiences stated, while true, but not always the case, and doesn't apply to all professionals.

agree. might be true to some but not to other. i met some successful ones at big4

I read with interest to what have been said and I recall having said this in another topic about the Big 4.

Why is it that everuone who does Finance and accountig do a beeline for Accounting profession?..The reason for this is that 90% of the time they don't really know what to do or where to go and the NATURAL progression is be an Accountant and do audit.

Stepping back aagin,then the poblem lies in the young people not having enough seruous career talks with someone who is experienced and care enough for the students .

Really look in to the whole specrtum of the Malaysia mentality..you have to study hard and be a Doctor,Accountant or lawyer.With taht sort of professional career you are "RESPECTED" and supposedly make lots of money.

The real world out there is vicious and lots of pitfals.It does not normally give you a SECOND chance if you fail and this probability increases with AGE.So if you have decided on a certain career and you want to change..you will have difficulty and if you do change ,,BITE the bullet and do it and do it when you are still young orelse you will be trapped in a job that you hate and the only reason you stay there is to have the money to pay for your economic status.

From my own experience..talk to someone about what you like in life and seek advise from that person who has your interest at heart..remember not all parents have your interest at heart..I am not saying that they do not care but becasue of their lack of knowledge they may advise you in your best interest and the OTHER important factor is that they like to tell ppl that their children are either Doc,Accountants or Lawyers..It sounds good and a respectable career.

For thosw who are in the audit line and find them selves questioning what they really want..it is not too late to revisit your postion.You have to have the courage to follow your dreams and what you want...NOT what other ppl expect of you..and go for it.It takes courage to CHANGE..If parents are prepared to migrate to other countries for the welfare of their childrem than I don't see why young ppl are not prepared to make a change in their career.

Apart fronm audit ther are many fields in finance that are open for a person who has the feel for it//Like Financial analysis,Fund manager,Research Manager,Stock broker,..

Remember Change is inevitable in this world it is not static and it is very dynamic..and you need passion or else you will not have the motivation to run the full race.

the article is true at some point. but at least the main character in the story knows where to be in the beginning and only got lost in the end (some ppl dun even know where to start and linger for yrs b4 they start working). the story not necessarily ending like that u know. i dunno abt accountants but there are ppl out there in big co, dun really have to work much but salary kau kau, still got extra time do online part-time job. so envious i supposed professional job still being yearned for due to their STABLE and HIGH salary wor...i dunno lar, i no professional. i wonder what kinda person would write the story though.

btw, junbecks, some ppl work for ppl cnt earn money, some ppl earn more money working for ppl than doing own biz...hard to say lar. i always envy ppl not having to worry abt their income (i'm easily stressed), working in big company with high salary that goes to ur bank directly before end of the month, good benefits then most of the time nothing to do one but must act busy, msn, facebook, eat snacks, drink coffee.

wake up! though so tempting but maybe only when i about to retire. now...dunno wat i want too kekeke! am i those already lost in the beginning of the story

and just to add, the writer paints all things bad.

from what I observe, usually when you're junior is when you work your bum off to get peanuts.

as you progress, you will be paid more but whether the amount of work scales according to the amount paid is subjective to the organization.

start as junior, RM 2k and do everything instructed but as you progress, say reaching managerial level, then you get RM 5k but you get to instruct others, while being instructed only by those higher than you. lesser work but more responsibility, so to speak.

perhaps the writer himself is just a freshie who's complaining about his / her working condition as it is evident that he / she doesn't seem to be (based on the article) someone who has progressed in that particular line of job.

what do you guys think?

it depend on individual perspectives, some people enjoy what they are doing even though other people think the job hell like shit, i envyed people who have passion on their job and become someone respected in their field. I do admit that some profession got no future at all and this is a fact that cannot be changed. Young generation who are about to get into university should think carefully what they want to become after their graduated otherwise they will end up like what TS posted.

A working professional is someone WITHOUT any delusions of grandeur. Another piece of advice for those freshlings out there with gung-ho attitude, if you do not know shit from Shinola, it's good to learn from seniors. Don't go complaining every now and then.

It makes you less of a nincompoop than you already was.

Regards, Joey

p.s: Roll your sleeves and start digging in the dirt. Nothing is easy in this world.

TS u sound so pathethic lol sorry

life dun always turns out they way we want but work hard la. no girls like guy who b**** abt works and superior lolz.

u'll end up wif a perodua wif the rest of ur life with this kind of attitude

A cow is hardworking. Does it gives the cow some other viable options?

Driving a Malaysian car does not mean a person is not well to do. I've known a few of rich tycoons wearing "pagoda" brand singlet at home. How does this sounded to you? They should be cladding in Giorgio Armani, D&G, Elie Saab, Atelier Versace, Adeline André, so on and so forth. Go figure yourself.

Regards, Joey

p.s: Sorry for using the word "cow" as an example. It was used for reinstate my point of query. I will remove it if someone feels offended. It is not meant to insult the Malaysian Hindus community.

This post has been edited by Joey Christensen: Nov 16 2009, 04:40 PM

i am thinking the writer of the story is the "main character" in the story himself...probably writing just to release grunts kua...otherwise he is somebody who is the opposite of the main character and thinks the main character is a loser...

no ppl ask u to work hard only la

work hard n smart

btw we was talking abt cars, cars and lousy s hirt r 2 different categories.

i think u belong to the same category wif ts la. work till dulan come here b keyboard warrior saja

agree agree!

If you go and ask form five or college kids what they want to be, most of them will say engineers, doctors, lawyers, accountants. Any other profession is not considered as successful. I think its the lack of knowledge on careers that most malaysian have. I remember all my matriculation mates wants to be in medical (eyes, teeth, Pharm, etc) or engineering. Whether they know what engineers do is different matter. When i told one of my teacher im taking Geology, he even asked me how bad my final examination are.

yup ... totally agree ... but mostly its influence from parents / relatives ....

most parents n relatives aka older generation ( including mine ) will always tot that having a popular job is a guaranteed success ... when i failed to get my degree i worked as sales b4 .... n during CNY everyone juz ask me wats my job , i told them sales they'll either say "oh,sell wat?" or "thts y la , lazy so din get degree" .... while other cousins , their parents will gather up n start boasting "wah,my son now auditor" , "my daughter goin to b dentist" , " my son engineer in a very big company"

so is it being a sales a humiliation? well at least to these ppl perspective , a job without a popular title n big company attach together means u r either low paid or u haf no bright prospect ... even once i got an offer to b officer in a mnc , pay is like 2-3k , but all ppl say no future n condemn me kaw-kaw ...

im not the one writting this. im just sharing. please read carefully. cheers

apparently those people never realize that a diploma holder who knows how to speak decently can do sales.

and the 4 years (at least) for them to get their degree along the course fees - we're talking about 4 years studying + 40k (at least) for those courses. compare that with the person who has 3 years head start + earnings.

so by the time both are at 22, one just finished 4 years and spent 40k for studies. the other already had 3 years working experience and assuming 1.5k for 1st year, 2k 2nd year and 2.5k for 3rd year when it comes to salary, the fella averages at 2k per month for 3 years, coming to RM 72k worth of incoming $$$ already.

Being in Big4 for around 2 months, i can confirm that what TS said almost 99% is real but he or she forgot to mention one thing.
Why everybody whom already knew about the horror of Big4 (from anyone who cares to share) still WANTS to join.
Most that goes in armed with the objective of getting as much as they can before they got their professional title (3-4 years) then leave for for good.
The firm ALSO acknowledge this and unleash a full barrage of dung to juniors. The problem is can you absorb and handle it. So the manager thinks how mush s(he) can PUSH you and how much you can PULL from them. Its a situation where "You used me and I use you back". Win-win scenario or scratching your back is gross understatement.

In Big4 if you are dealing with Top40 MYS companies, then it will be true hell & nightmare for auditors (loads & loads of subsidiary to handle + lack of staff ). Some may think that if you finished your job than you can go home, yeah as soon as you finished it, another will kicks in and then another one. Not to mentioned the journey to client (if its far). My client is around 20km from my house (40km back & forth + traffic jam + toll).

Very true indeed.

lol... u should try working at oversea... it's different....

I totally agree. As the more senior they are, despite heavier responsibilities, they can delegate all the work to the staff and senior. For myself, if I have sufficient staff, I'd just review files and deal with managers/partner. If no staff, need to rolled up my sleeves and DIY.

not fair to calculate like dat lar man...so many other possible figures leh...wat if continue calculating to 10 years, 20 years...who knows the limit or progress of a dip. salesperson and a professional. other than working attitude and knowledge, other unforeseen and beyond control aspects are there, such as opportunities right?

i for one is discomfort with a person who is or does complain about his job.
The usual rants
A complain comes only if the person does not know how to deliver the job,

A complain comes only if a person does want to investigate what happen to prior to complaining about the issue.

A complain comes when he is given a task, even worse if he doesnt know how to deliver the task!

Let me share with you this,

1. you are a employee, your boss gives u a task, why does he give you?
because you are paid to do so. right? why complain?

2. why he doesnt gives it to another person? because he knows you are good with your work or u have time to spare (positive/negative its your choice)

Now if you are indeed very tight down with work, talk to your boss about it, let him know that you are tight down with your load, ask him for more time, if he insists that you to take it. Negotiate with him. give him a solution instead ask for an answer, tell him you need X amount of time to finish your work nicely n live to it. Now if he does not gives u ample time to finish your load, Spend more time working, because at the end of the day your CV will be much nicer. and its time for an employer who pays you more because of your more beautiful CV. Therefore it pays to work hard .

the best is when a person complains about the job being boring n unsuitable...then blames the boss, the company n the whole wide world...

but when asked "what do you want to do then?", the answer is a "i dunno"....

Agree. And why this situation is happening? because he/she dont really like their job in the first place.
Why he/she didnt like their job? because its the only appropriate job for all those degree and certificates that their accumulate through out their study year.
Why studying something that you dont enjoy? Well, you know why.

haiyoh simplified already to get the point through la.

if you want to include all the variables (meaning, all the IFs in life) then no need to post already. the in this world no need to argue / debate already because we'll have a never-ending loop of "what ifs"

true oso lar...

it's exactly like my gf's diary

Don't waste any time or breath to be bothered by relatives like that. All of them had too much time to spare ard gossiping abt others. In time they'll understand the situation.

Sales isn't a humiliation. They are very much appreciated by companies coz they bring in revenues. You chose your job and path, so be proud of where you're walking. If you seem to think it's humiliating, then it is.

Why bother what others say? They told u there's no future coz they don't know. I'm sure you know better. If you make a choice based on what other ppl think/ say then that's really too bad.

Ok, if it really true.. Wut do u expect when u going out from Big4??? Just asking...

Funny, but not exactly applicable to all though. Haha. Thanks for sharing

as a young person myself, i'll say, we tend to have this stubborn trait in us to want to try things out. tho we've heard of horror stories abt the amt of work / stress from working in a big firm, we'll still go head on with it... kind of like a point to prove that we can take it... or a challenge to ourselves that we'll survive. perhaps you could call it innocence or naive

not necessarily... as mentioned by others, nothing is easy in this world... we've to fight to survive or be successful. no doubt life overseas may be more laid back... where there's more work-life balance but it still doesn't mean that they don't work like shit or are assigned less-glamorous jobs such as photocopying etc... we've to pay our dues 1st before we can reach a comfy level


truly just feel like smacking them in the head or shaking them to wake up huh!!!

thanks for sharing

this article sounds true in most of the working life.. I think people just get too comfort and get bored over doing the similar things for too long

But, the company won't 'die' even the CEO left the company

after complaining still need to work

this is working life

a very nice article

I was from the Big 4 ,, in the IT dept my pay was just average but the workload is alot. Therefore , I left and joined by previous line, Service Desk Analyst for 30 % pay rise and less workload

My parents were furious at me for leaving the Big 4 . For me at the end of the day, the pay cheque that matters most cos that's the one that gonna support my live hood .

Don't get me wrong, i have nothing against the Big 4 .

totally agree... but i think most of the fresh grads will experience this.. this is life.. almost everyone will ned to experince it this way.. anyway.. 24 hours aday.. its fixed.. it is depend on us to plan and fully utilise it!

petroleum engineer,pilot, IT engineer earns more

---

Added on March 22, 2011, 8:26 amhaha...I'm not in big 4 but I'm provided to live at 4-stars hotel since their place is too far,so I work in hotel and the meals are free.
I have worked for 5 months (freshie) A1, and I have handled Advance, advance to sales payable account receivable, account payable, other receivable, other payable,accrued expenses, summarize the tax, payroll,summary the annual general meeting, fixed assets, vouching, print, photocopying, lead schedule, reporting ( TB to working paper), discuss and follow up with clients, some consolidation, disclosures, analytical review,planning, do materiality, understanding clients' business,review.. this month I clock up to 2 a.m to absorb all learnings just within 6 months. I wanna quit audit line, I just suck up for learning, which one I have not learned??? so buddies, is my experience lots? 70% already? I have experience with client with revenues more than USD$4 billions or just $500K-10 million.

the first 2 months, I didn't learn anything.

This post has been edited by Materazzi: Mar 22 2011, 08:29 AM

Cool story but that's just typical imo. The person who wrote the article had failed to see the plus point which he gained through out the course.

For my case when i came out, i never thought of Big4 or top IT Services recruiter. I just need a job which is challenging enough for me. True enough working on weekends and late night occasionally but as a freshie i tend to take all this opportunity as a learning curve.

Well, i got the recognition, more responsibility and stress level just increases day by day but yet the pay i am receiving is not adequate to the job i am receiving. This had became the major factor for me to move on. I insisted to continue on what i am doing as it seems i really like what i am doing. I am doing different things daily, other people's problem had became mine. Basically my job scope is to solve and provide customers with solution to their issue (Business not personal).

The sales rep are being paid so well (2-4 times my salary) but i can see their stress level is so much more higher. Chasing for figures daily, working till late night most of the time and more importantly doing things which i don't like. Being screwed by their boss and clients day and night had became a norm to them. The company offered me a sales specialist job with higher benefit and salary with commission but unfortunately i can't imagine myself working without pride.

I left the company eventually and thanks to the persistent which i had, i landed with a job which is so much more easier and paid so much better compared to my previous job. In 3 years time, i've double the gain from my 1st job.

*What is most important to me is having pride doing what you are doing, love what you are doing and know what you are best in.

*Many would see the other field has greener grass and tempted to jump over to the other field without any experience playing on it. What causes them to lose out is actually they have failed to see what's better in their own field and they've actually failed to excel on it.

This post has been edited by kidmad: Mar 22 2011, 10:40 AM

Wow! So much experience eh? Very great wor, power.
So what's your point??????

his point is that he wants to quit audit.....

First boast about 4 star hotel, free meals and extensively Long list of jargons, saying that he learnt 70% of audit, then say he learnt nth in first 2 months, meanin he learnt 70% of audit within 3 months?? Isn't it great ? How much can an auditor learn by taking the dates description number and amount of invoices??

Nice post TS. Should print and hand out to those collecting their SPM results the other day..

In terms of impact to the success of an audit assignment, that's probably 5%. In terms of being a full A1 that a senior can depend on to work independently during field work, maybe 40-50%.

Oh god..reading this just scares the hell outta me . I just finished my pre-u with good results and here i am thinking where to do my accountancy degree. But after reading this, it really forces me to reconsider cos i don't even know what i want to do in the future. I chose accountancy for the same reasons, good prospects,stable job etc.

Since most of you have working experience, would you still advice me to join the accounting profession?I'm supposed to make my decision by July.

me only do dirty hands on job... me dun like paper job... pple wan look down at me let them be la... most important i so enjoice my job...

A nice article about the weekend of a banker.
http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/week...-sunday-monday/
Read also other days of the week of a banker. It is a very interesting article.

share with u guys a song specially dedicated to all AUDITORS~~~

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrO_iIXNm2U

Enjoy

The thing is every f%#king asian have this herd mentality(myself included). Once they say accountant is a good prefession like my son/friend/relative is oing very well, then every parents brainwash their sons/daughters to study accountancy. Same with doctors, engineers and most other profession. The when they graduate, they find that 1) they are competing with so many other people 2) they don't even like the job in the first place 3) Becasue of the oversupply, companies pay lesser to employ freshies. Had I know the things I know now, I would have never studied accounting & finance. I will probably be a geologist or a vessel/oil tanker captain or something like dat coz there is a acute shortage of these people and the pay is generous. again supply & demand

Hindsight is always 20/20.

I studied accounting as it was (i) a degree - most MNCs require recruits to be graduates of any discipline, (ii) it was broad enough to be acceptable for many other fields without penalty, if I didn't like accounting, and (iii) if you expect to be somewhat successful (as an employee or entrepreneur)... making money, making decisions and managing profitability will become the primary focus of your work at some point in your career. Accounting or actually finance, to be more accurate, will be 100% applicable then.

This post has been edited by seantang: Mar 26 2011, 12:27 AM

Folks,

It is VERY SIMPLE...

A) You WORK FOR YOURSELF. You exchange YOUR TIME for MONEY. So, why would you give it away for FREE?? If you want to do this, why don't you come to my house and wash my car for FREE??

B) So, if you work LONGER than normal office hour, what do you get in return?? Is it worth it??

C) If you LEARN something NEW and INCREASED your CAPABILITY and MARKET VALUE, this is an investment. If not, why bother??

I worked 40 hours per week. I spent 20 hours after work self-study to increase my capability. I do not NEED to count on my current employer to reward me. The JOB MARKET will reward me because of my capability.

D) Ditto, some bosses are USELESS. They are not willing or capable to REWARD you for your extra effort. So, why bother?? Why work for FREE??

THINK!!! Take care of yourself. If you don't, no one else will....

Dreamer

---

Added on March 26, 2011, 8:26 ammercury8400,

Average people are not rich. Rich people are not average..

If YOU are not smarter or luckier than average people, you have to work HARDER and SMARTER than average people to get somewhere.

<< Had I know the things I know now, I would have never studied accounting & finance. I will probably be a geologist or a vessel/oil tanker captain or something like dat coz there is a acute shortage of these people and the pay is generous. again supply & demand>>

B.S. You could be ABOVE AVERAGE on accounting and finance if you CHOOSE to. Then, you will earn a lot more money than average geologist and oil tanker captain.


Ditto on above average wanton noddle seller, chicken rice seller and so on....

YOU choose to be AVERAGE or NOT. No one else...

Dreamer



This post has been edited by dreamer101: Mar 26 2011, 08:26 AM

The reason why anyone/you can't be average and rich or comfortable (Being rich is subjective) is because of COMPETITION, which is excatly what i pointed out in the first place. Let me give you a simple e.g. so you understand my simple philosophy

e.g.1) You are a Accountant from the big4 with 2-3 years experience. You wanna make more money/career progression hence you try to move out to join a MNC with better pay/working conditions etc. But lo and behold, there are 1000 other people who are also applying for the same position. So how? You will have to prove that you are more hardworking, be above average (in yr words) compared to the 1000 other applicants

e.g.2) You are a geologist with 2-3 years exp. I am just average. Nothing to shout about. Like you i wanted more pay, so i move out. Lucky for me, geologist isn't something everbody has studied or has worked as. There are numerous oil and gas co who needs these people for oil exploration and studies. Hence there are more positions open than people willing/having the right skills to work in them. So I tell my employees RMXXX amount is what i want. Take it or leave it even though i'm just average. Guess what? I got the job. Why? Coz THERE JUST ARE NOT THAT MANY PEOPLE DOING IT!

In summary i reiterate what i just said. You HAVE TO BE ABOVE AVERAGE BACAUSE OF COMPETITION! So why study something everbody is studying such as accounting & finance? Although i agree hindsight is 20/20 but if just someone could have told me earlier..... sigh

my friend wants to be unpaid for OT. this is a joke for me.
Due to her stupidity or passion? lol

i should be working in france, england, the eu...their labour law and working environment balances working life with ur personal life

This post has been edited by Noyoudontcare: Mar 26 2011, 01:47 PM

The reason why captains of oil tankers and upstream exploration geologists are paid relatively more and the reason why there are relatively few people doing it - is NOT simply because of the field (ie. sailing and geology). The reason is because of the personal risk involved, for which they are compensated handsomely. Same reason why simple welders and technicians on an oil rig earn a lot more than their counterparts in a residential construction project, for instance.

If you're willing to take risks, you can earn extraordinary salaries as an accountant too. My company pays a very 'healthy' foreign service premium and hardship allowance on top of the expat package for accountants (basically anyone from any function) who's willing to work in Algeria, Iran, Libya, Israel, Pakistan etc. Slightly less is offered for those in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Eastern Europe, former Soviet Union, Africa (other than South Africa) etc. Even less for those in Dubai, Doha. A pretty good mix of compensation and hardship is Mumbai and other parts of India, where the allowances are still quite good but safety is still reasonable. One of my relatives earns US$5000-7000 a month as registered nurse in Jeddah, whereas her colleagues of the same batch are earning at most RM3000 in KL.

So, no. There is no field that average people can earn above-average salaries without taking above-average risks.

That's another way of looking at it. but the principal still stands. The reason why they pay more like you mentioned is that not a lot of people are willing to take the risk. Hence "less" competition for the jobs. again demand and supply.

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Added on March 26, 2011, 5:27 pmRight. But then you pay exhorbitant tax rates

This post has been edited by mercury8400: Mar 26 2011, 05:27 PM

Your principle is based on the assumption that it's the field or industry that makes the difference. That principle does not hold water.

Mine is that it is the risk you take that makes the difference and risk is available for the taking in any field or industry. That principle is sound.

My principle is that the more competition the more one needs to raise above the challenger/s irregardless of the industry or risk involved.

mercury8400,

Any profession and / or career with good pay will face a lot of competition!!! In this case, there will be a lot of people like YOU aka "average people" that will change their career or degree into oil tanker captain or geologist because it pays more and aka "SHORTAGE".

You have the HERD mentality...

YOU cannot run away from competition if you want to be ABOVE AVERAGE. It is more worthwhile to INVEST TIME and ENERGY to beat your competition as opposed to WHINING that you MADE a wrong decision.

Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Mar 26 2011, 08:04 PM

This is a clear example of someone who cannot accept an alternative view or could not understand other's point of view and has to resort to personal attacks. And strangely there are alot of these irrational people around in lowyatnet. Let me clearify the facts for you

1) I never said i made a wrong decision and I admited taht i was also part of the herd mentality earlier in my post. I merely said it was better if some one had pointed out my options earlier before i decided what course to take

2) Not all profession and/or career with good pay will face a lot of competition. It depends on the supply vs demand. Unfortunately most people in asia at least adopt the herd mentality hence traditional "professional" jobs like accountant will continue to have a dearth of supply while other "professionals" such as geologist will continue to suffer a lack of supply. With the lack of supply you can be average and still command a better pay tahn say the thousands of other accountants. This is a clear example of what they call the blue and red ocean strategy. You move from a highly competitive environment (where i presume co (in this case) will be embroiled in price wars and move to something which you have a competitve edge(i.e. less competition). The competitive edge in my e.g. case above would be from the fact that not many people are working as a geologist hence the blue ocean.

So yr arguments are clearly invalid

mercury8400,

<<2) Not all profession and/or career with good pay will face a lot of competition. It depends on the supply vs demand. >>

Basic law of economy...

Supply will increase to meet the demand unless there is some kind of obstacle to stop the supply.

So, either

A) Average people cannot become geologist. Hence, there is NO AVERAGE people in geology to begin with.

or

B) Average people become geologist. Supply increase to drive the price down.

<< The competitive edge in my e.g. case above would be from the fact that not many people are working as a geologist hence the blue ocean.>>

The POINT is WRONG and INVALID anyhow. This assumes that a person can stay in one career path for their whole lives and survive... How TRUE that is?? Most people of new generation will change job at least 10 times in their life time.

Dreamer

P.S: MY POINT is

1) Instead of WHINING about which area is more or less competitive, a person SHOULD expect competition as a fact of life if they want above average pay.

2) It is MORE IMPORTANT to find out which area that a person HAS inherent advantage aka talent to be ABOVE AVERAGE in than finding out which area has SHORTAGE. As per my observation, almost all SHORTAGE that I observed over 20+ years are temporary.

3) By the way, I still remember Houston Oil Bust where large number of geologists were unemployed...


This post has been edited by dreamer101: Mar 27 2011, 08:45 AM

I don't think there's a shortage of the "average" geologist. Geologists in the govt's geology dept, or based in comfy offices in KL or Sg don't earn more than accountants based in the same organisations.

There are professions where the average pay is higher than accountants eg. medical doctors, actuaries etc. But then again, anyone in these professions are clearly not average.

As for accountants, the profession is big. A lot of the people in the profession are below average. But since the demand for accountants is actually so high, a lot of below average people get in, get hired and begin to think of themselves as average, or worse, above average.

^

I agree with mercury8400,

you see rory hie, a professional golf player from Indonesia, just now he is in number 2 and got around USD 100K for one time playing. he is an average in the world and above average in Asia.

you can be above average accountant in malaysia but got peanuts money.. or average accountant in australia got huge money?

Seriously... You're equating professional golfing to accounting? Is professional golfing something that's an alternative available to the average accountant? What could you have done differently with your life so that you could be a pro golfer instead of an unsuccessful accountant?

Lol, trust me buddy. If there is a top 200 world ranking for accountants and you are an AVERAGE in the WORLD RANKING and ABOVE AVERAGE in the ASIAN RANKING, you would be rolling in money as well.

I think you gotta understand what mercury IS REALLY TRYING TO SAY dreamer (u really gotta stop your judgementalism sometimes to force your own pov onto others), if you take the profession of accountancy v.s engineering or other less-governed body of profession, that statement is not really fair at all. Engineers, overall, aren't governed by any body as RIGID as accountancy or finance ppl do if you get what I mean, literraly, an enginner can be paid really handsomely even he doesn't have many paper qualification like an accountant does, accountant and finance ppl, on the other hand, they rely really a lot on paper qualification stage by stage to climb the so-called echelon of coporate ladder, degree--->ACCA--->Charted so on and so forth.

You can ague that an accountant CAN quit his current rat race to other field like sales to continue his career path but that I can guarantee you that it is gonna be so much HARDER than an engineer or doctor trying to venture into other less conventional area. The amount of risk that he requires to do this is higher and he's got too much to sacrifice. Or maybe I could put it this way, some professional jobs are somehow DESTINED to be a corporate slaves unless they have the guts to quit what average people do.

I have no idea about the big 4 working environment
But, I can only say that the first part of what TS say is quite true.
Starting from the middle part of his rant is what I called symptoms from a spoon-fed graduate. Luckily my experience is vastly different.

To put it simply,
starting in the field is the hardest, in the first few months you need to put at least +12 hours per day for your work.
After that, it is smooth sailing as you understand the logics and workflow behind your job scope.

Remember, just because nobody want to teach you anymore doesn't mean you should stop learning and improving yourself.
Remember that the company DO NOT OWN you a living.
THEY RATHER you just kuai kuai do your job forever until they don't need you anymore
So its up to YOU to make yourself NEEDED and USEFUL to a lot of companies to give yourself more options and advantages in life. This is probably the hardest thing anyone ever do
And boredom can always be cured by climbing the corporate ladder and taking stress-relieving hobbies.

meebo,

<< Or maybe I could put it this way, some professional jobs are somehow DESTINED to be a corporate slaves unless they have the guts to quit what average people do.>>

You are making one big ASSUMPTION. You are ASSUMING that they had a choice...

<<stage by stage to climb the so-called echelon of coporate ladder, degree--->ACCA--->Charted so on and so forth.>>

You are assuming that a person can stay on this track and survive. And, a person had the CHOICE of staying on this track and not being a road kill...

How many accountants had fallen off this track??

As per my observation again across 20+ years, not many accountants stay as accountant and survive... How many people with accounting degree ended up to be chartered accountant??

My POV is formed by my many years of observation. It may not be totally valid.

Now, what is the basis for your POV??

My wife and most of my in-laws are accounting degree holders. None of them are working as accountant now....

Dreamer

What if we enter Big 4 for the scholarship for ICAEW remain in it till the bonding period is over and leave? will that change the whole senario? Newbie here.

I would like to make friends who work in big 4...

Facts and statistics matter to my POV. Here read my fact

Fact 1:

After university graduation, the NUMBER of engineers end up working in totally unrelated or least related engineering work scope is HIGHER than accountants working in accounting-unrelated jobs.

Fact 2:

MOST medical doctors, pharmacists and lawyers are always quicker to break themselves from the employees' path by forming their own business/firm partnership compared to MOST accountants.

Fact 3:

In the initial 5 years of working experience, traditional non-oil related engineers and accountants are the least paid profession ALWAYS. Statiscally and averagely speaking.

Conclusion:My collection of fact shows that accountant has the most resistance of all professions to stop whinning about their work.

You want to start work at 19 ?

meebo,

We are looking from a different POV. You are looking at first 5 years. I am looking at 10 to 20 years of career.

My point is still stand.

A) You could earn a lot of money by being ABOVE AVERAGE in a profession by AVERAGE people.

Or,

B) You could earn a lot of money by being AVERAGE in a profession by ABOVE AVERAGE people.

It could work out either way. Just because a person is in a profession by average people as per your example (accountant and engineer), a person could still earn a lot of money by being ABOVE AVERAGE.

The poster, Mercury, claimed that only (B) is possible. I counter by saying both (A) and (B) are possible.

It is VERY SIMPLE.

Average people are not rich. Rich people are not average. You have to choose one: Average or Rich.

Dreamer

Anyway just something a bit out of topic, in malaysia anything is possible if you have the right cvonnections. U practically don't have to work and money keeps falling from the sky (like some of our dato who have connection.) Remember the klang MP who is clearly below average but living like a king?

mercury8400,

He has ABOVE AVERAGE connection...

Dreamer