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Discussion Big Clubs Raiding Starlet?, City join Chelsea and ManU in report

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nLz | Lanpakali
post Sep 9 2009, 09:27 PM

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come on , enough of man utd,

lets move on to a much bigger picture here...

The chelsea case.. Is gael kakuta really worth that 2 years ban? =/
Ichighost
post Sep 9 2009, 09:42 PM

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Positive Side : Yap, cuz he will force Chelsea to use the reserves team..bunch of them on loan right now..will be recall for january and some of them next season...to be able to lift the level of youngster under a pressure..yesh he might be the key to create a group of great footballer...without even spend any money for 2 transfer window...

Negative Side : He may flop and Chelsea left with insecure future..
TSsolstice818
post Sep 9 2009, 09:42 PM

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QUOTE(shgx700 @ Sep 9 2009, 08:59 PM)
is there anything to point that he's a UTD fan? i guess he's not even a football fan
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http://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...&#entry27362085

http://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...&#entry26254246

Notable:

QUOTE(MamulaMoon @ May 30 2009, 10:23 AM)
Why tottenham copied our glory glory song?

They changed it to "Glory glory tottenham hotspurs"??? LOL?
Oh well...I can quote a hell more post about that but these 2 should be enough to answer your question.

By the way, he is that funny little guy in the "Glory Hunter" thread that told us he had been forced to become manu fans because of the bandwagon...Funny guy. laugh.gif

QUOTE(nLz | Lanpakali @ Sep 9 2009, 09:27 PM)
come on , enough of man utd,

lets move on to a much bigger picture here...

The chelsea case.. Is gael kakuta really worth that 2 years ban? =/
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This whole little incident about banning wont make any difference to Chelsea because the 6+5 gonna be implemented soon..It's more like a blessing in disguise if you ask me since they have no choice but to play their youngsters now. smile.gif

This post has been edited by solstice818: Sep 9 2009, 09:43 PM
sickx
post Sep 9 2009, 10:19 PM

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QUOTE(Ichighost @ Sep 9 2009, 08:17 PM)
Hahhaha..okey....look like their lovers also know the habit of their player..

back to the topic..look like several english club reported to FIFA now...left Pool and Arsenal now from the top 4...
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we got away with merida's case before.but i don't know bout other youngsters.bout liverpool..did they sign youngsters from abroad? hmm.gif
madmoz
post Sep 10 2009, 01:43 PM

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All this hoohah, especially by French clubs reminds me of something kinda ironic...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7235765.stm

I like the 90 minute rule... make it compulsory EVERYWHERE and this ugly side of the supposedly beautiful game will die out.

Want to sign super talented Africans or South Americans... not until they are 18. Before that, you can only coach them via 'local partner' or 'local feeder' clubs.

But will FIFA ever have the political will, balls and clout to do this?
Kerplunk
post Sep 10 2009, 02:35 PM

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okay let's get something straight. there are people here who actually believe french/italian/spanish/german clubs have NEVER poached a youngster from other smaller teams before? u actually think they're all angels?and platini/blatter is the saviour of football? wow..u guys deserve an award. and its not the good kind. laugh.gif
nshady
post Sep 11 2009, 01:10 AM

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QUOTE(Kerplunk @ Sep 10 2009, 02:35 PM)
okay let's get something straight. there are people here who actually believe french/italian/spanish/german clubs have NEVER poached a youngster from other smaller teams before? u actually think they're all angels?and platini/blatter is the saviour of football? wow..u guys deserve an award. and its not the good kind.  laugh.gif
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Agreed here smile.gif
Ichighost
post Sep 11 2009, 01:21 AM

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QUOTE(Kerplunk @ Sep 10 2009, 03:35 PM)
okay let's get something straight. there are people here who actually believe french/italian/spanish/german clubs have NEVER poached a youngster from other smaller teams before? u actually think they're all angels?and platini/blatter is the saviour of football? wow..u guys deserve an award. and its not the good kind.  laugh.gif
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me too...
matyrze
post Sep 11 2009, 01:42 AM

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QUOTE(Kerplunk @ Sep 10 2009, 02:35 PM)
okay let's get something straight. there are people here who actually believe french/italian/spanish/german clubs have NEVER poached a youngster from other smaller teams before? u actually think they're all angels?and platini/blatter is the saviour of football? wow..u guys deserve an award. and its not the good kind.  laugh.gif
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Why don't you just accept that the youth transfer policy in other countries is different from that in England? The English football have been very different in nearly every aspect compared to others, be it the style of play, the marketing strategies, the ownership of the club, the fans, the stadium. Most probablt, so too the youth policy.

Up until now, there are several clubs that have already accused EPL teams of poaching their young stars. And mind you that those clubs are not only from France, there are also some from England. Recently Leeds United have also been vocal about this poaching activities.

Until there are some minor clubs report any french/italian/spanish/german club to FIFA of trying to poach their youngster, you have to accept that only the English have been really greedy.

If you are going to accuse FIFA of being anti-English, well, maybe you didn't read yet about Roma's similar 2 years ban.

In fact, I believe, FIFA have been really biased toward Chelsea recently, when they asked Mutu to pay 17 million euros to Chelsea. Huh, they are indeed 'anti-English'.
Ichighost
post Sep 11 2009, 02:21 AM

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Dude asking Mutu to pay 17mil to Chelsea...was not even a help..they complicated a lot of things...dont look everything direct..try to think the other side of it..


toshio14
post Sep 11 2009, 07:20 AM

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QUOTE(Ichighost @ Sep 11 2009, 02:21 AM)
Dude asking Mutu to pay 17mil to Chelsea...was not even a help..they complicated a lot of things...dont look everything direct..try to think the other side of it..
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i don't know about others but i'm really interested in knowing what is this "other side" of Mutu's case

Ichighost
post Sep 11 2009, 07:41 AM

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I mean the player himself..begging former club to reduce the 17mil...asking from club to split the bill...now look like Mutu career in trouble...

It is just the same of Kakuta case...Fifa should not limit his earning...he play and train harder so that he can earn a good money...did his former club can give him the salary Chelsea give it to him? No..so we pay for what we done....simple..Why Ronaldo cost nearly 80mil...cuz he play hard to impress the world....to make sure he earn a gud salary..

Sometimes is not just about Club...sometimes it is about players...
TSsolstice818
post Sep 11 2009, 08:23 AM

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QUOTE(Ichighost @ Sep 11 2009, 07:41 AM)
I mean the player himself..begging former club to reduce the 17mil...asking from club to split the bill...now look like Mutu career in trouble...

It is just the same of Kakuta case...Fifa should not limit his earning...he play and train harder so that he can earn a good money...did his former club can give him the salary Chelsea give it to him? No..so we pay for what we done....simple..Why Ronaldo cost nearly 80mil...cuz he play hard to impress the world....to make sure he earn a gud salary..

Sometimes is not just about Club...sometimes it is about players...
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I think you should get your fact right.

1st, I dont think FIFA limit Kakuta's salary whatsoever.It's the inducement given to him that he was reported to FIFA.

2nd, I don't know what's relevant to Mutu begging Chelsea to reduce the 17mil.matyrze was saying that Chelsea was not aimed by FIFA by including in the Mutu's case.How is this begging 17mil stuff relevant to "the other side"


Anyway, I have to agree with Kerplunk.It will be plain stupid if someone think only BPL clubs raid youth from other nation.They aint really that saint either...
skystrike
post Sep 11 2009, 08:24 AM

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QUOTE
Wenger against ban on signing Under-18s

Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger has become a rare voice against blocking the trade of Under-18 footballers, defending his club's policy of signing the best young players from around the world and claiming the rules should actually be relaxed.

The French coach criticised the current rules which make it difficult for English clubs to sign youths from Asia, South America and Africa.

Wenger claims that stopping a practice that Leeds chairman Ken Bates has described as "baby farming" would actually put the players at more risk and they would likely fall prey to unscruplious agents.

FIFA are determined to clean up the game after last week banning Chelsea from signing any players until 2011. Since the Gael Kakuta ruling a whole host of offended clubs have come out to demand action.

Most of Europe's top clubs have stated they would support a ban on any transfers for under-age players, but Wenger strongly disagrees claiming there are many advantages to joining big clubs with a professional infrastructure.

Arsenal have one of the most cosmopolitan academies in Europe with players from all over the globe.

"People think that we take 30 players every year and you get them into your academy," he said. "No, it's not like that. When we take one or two, we give them a top level education, we give them a top level scholarship, and we look after them socially.

"Look at the alternative. If you ban players from moving before the age of 18, you know what will happen? The player will be sold anyway,'' he said. "To whom? To agents. At what age? At 13, 14. Where will they go? Not to top-level clubs with top-level education.

"They will go to clubs who have been bought by business people, of a very low level, and will stay there until the age of 18 waiting to be sold. The money will go out of the game. You have always to look if you make one decision, what kind of alternative?

"If your players cannot move to the best clubs, I believe they will not improve. At the end of the day, to be a top-level player is to be with the best. You can speak bout the compensation level, is it right or not. I am open to that.

"I am against the process of stopping the players moving to the top level. If you have a child who is a good musician, what is your first reaction? It is to put it into a good music school, not in an average one, so why should that not happen in football?

"If a player goes to Chelsea, Arsenal, Manchester United, it is all clean and he gets a good education. That is why I am very sharp on cases like that. We have to respect the rules that are in place.

"England is, at the moment, in a weak position for taking young players because they inflict a big handicap on themselves by the fact that they have no access to Asian players, no access to South American players, no access to African players.

"On top of that, if it was impossible to take European players then you will have a big handicap in the future for English football. What is happening now is a case that I have fought for a long, long time against - people with regressive ideas.

"To expose your local players to top-world class players does not harm your players, it improves your players because it respects one basic rule - the best to become better have to play better. If you have a good national team today, it just proves it conforms to what I have preached for a long, long time - don't hide the best players in England from being exposed with the best ones, because that will make them weaker.

"Get them to be confronted with the best and make them stronger."
sos soccernet

what do u guyz think??? cool2.gif

This post has been edited by skystrike: Sep 11 2009, 08:25 AM
Ichighost
post Sep 11 2009, 08:30 AM

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@solstice818

I got what u mean..nice explanation...

I think UEFA should standardize the rule for under 18 transfer..maybe a fix amount if compensation...amount of age...


madmoz
post Sep 11 2009, 09:15 AM

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QUOTE(skystrike @ Sep 11 2009, 08:24 AM)
sos soccernet

what do u guyz think???  cool2.gif
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Honestly, I think Mr Wenger is being selfish and ignorant. Read the article, young kids are being sold like cattle even now. Is it really that hard to establish feeder clubs or have links with clubs all around the world and help them train those kids locally so they do not have to be uprooted and sent somewhere far from home.

Good for the club, good for the community and also good for the kids.
Kerplunk
post Sep 11 2009, 09:18 AM

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QUOTE(matyrze @ Sep 11 2009, 01:42 AM)

Until there are some minor clubs report any french/italian/spanish/german club to FIFA of trying to poach their youngster, you have to accept that only the English have been really greedy.

If you are going to accuse FIFA of being anti-English, well, maybe you didn't read yet about Roma's similar 2 years ban.

In fact, I believe, FIFA have been really biased toward Chelsea recently, when they asked Mutu to pay 17 million euros to Chelsea. Huh, they are indeed 'anti-English'.
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dude just because they go unreported, doesn't mean something illegal hasn't taken place. and if somehow they're better when it comes to covering up their tracks, doesn't make them free of guilt either.

regarding mexes, he was already tied to a professional contract with his former club, before roma 'signed' him up anyway. a huge difference there as roma clearly knew they were dealing with a player who's already legally tied down. mutu's case? he was on cocaine, which clearly breached his own contract so it got terminated.
its more like fifa taking a tough stand against drugs which is expected, and u can't compare the two.

if anything juve should take some responsibility as they snapped him up for free after that.
but u don't see fifa ordering juve to help mutu out do u? again this highlights fifa's 'ridiculousness' to put it lightly.
and imo mutu should be more upset with juventus for hanging him out to dry when they were the biggest winners
in the initial deal.

at the end of the day, bigger clubs will always try and swoop for stars from smaller clubs. and the players will always want to further their ambition, more often than not. rich dominating the poor, strong dominating the weak and all that jazz. that's just how the world works if u hadn't noticed. so don't tell me top spanish clubs have never made use of their wealth and pulling power to turn the head of a young player who developed at a 'smaller' team.

verx
post Sep 11 2009, 11:36 AM

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QUOTE(madmoz @ Sep 11 2009, 09:15 AM)
Honestly, I think Mr Wenger is being selfish and ignorant. Read the article, young kids are being sold like cattle even now. Is it really that hard to establish feeder clubs or have links with clubs all around the world and help them train those kids locally so they do not have to be uprooted and sent somewhere far from home.

Good for the club, good for the community and also good for the kids.
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I agree with Wenger actually. How is banning the transfers of U-18s going to solve the "cattle" problem in Africa? If the kids are talented they deserve the chance to improve their lives by capitalising on their talent. Not every kid will get that chance anyway. Why should they stay in their local academies when the facilities or the coaches are nowhere near as good as the ones in Europe? How are they going to maximise their potential then? Wait until they are 18; by that time it will already be too late. It's also unrealistic to expect a big European club to invest in top class facilities in Nigeria, Ghana, Togo, or different regions in Argentina or Brazil. It makes way more sense to sponsor the kid a ticket to your academy and train him there.

@matyrze: I think you're clutching at straws there, the European clubs aren't saints. There is alot of poaching going on whether you choose to believe it or not. But I guess it comes down to how you define poaching. And there's also the need to distinguish between what is legal and illegal and, ethical and unethical.

@Kerplunk: Innocent until proven guilty. European clubs in general tend to bring in youngsters at a far younger age (ard 8-13). And for players that are older normally a fee is involved. What the English clubs are criticised for now are for bringing in players just before they can sign professional contracts by offering them a lucrative pro contract (because it's allowed in England) and without compensating a fee. It may be legal but to me it's unethical. That is what I want to see being cracked down. Chelsea may have been unlucky because Kakuta had signed a pre-agreement with Lens but that doesn't mean that all the other European clubs practice the same way mainly because there is no loophole for them to exploit. The whole thing would have been a non-issue if the clubs that trained these players since they were 8 yrs old were being compensated in the first place.

This post has been edited by verx: Sep 11 2009, 11:50 AM
vreis
post Sep 11 2009, 11:46 AM

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QUOTE(verx @ Sep 11 2009, 11:36 AM)
@Kerplunk: Innocent until proven guilty. European clubs in general tend to bring in youngsters at a far younger age (ard 8-13). And for players that are older normally a fee is involved. What the English clubs are criticised for now are for bringing in players just before they can sign professional contracts by offering them a lucrative pro contract (because it's allowed in England) and without compensating a fee. It may be legal but to me it's unethical. That is what I want to see being cracked down. Chelsea may have been unlucky because Kakuta had signed a pre-agreement with Lens but that doesn't mean that all the other European clubs practice the same way mainly because there is no loophole for them to exploit. The whole thing would have been a non-issue if the clubs that trained these players since they were 8 yrs old were being compensated in the first place.
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How much do you compensate them when there's no contract involve. What is the amount that seems fair to both sides? Reluctant seller will quote sky high price while buyer will find ways to nick those youngster for free since there's practically no contract binding them. What if seller determine to hang into their prized asset & buyer determine to get their hands on the said asset while the asset himself determine to move on to better things? Do we need to consider the opinion of the youngster since there's no contract? If not, then buyer & seller is equally guilty for treating the youngster like a piece of meat.
Trouble is determining the amount of compensation. For pro, their transfer fee mostly based on their income/year. If this approach are used to compensate those small clubs, it's practically nil.
On the other hand, do the buyer just pay whatever the figure quoted by seller? It's a no brainer since, why would they pay the seller asking price when they know they can get it for far less if its decided by tribunal.

BTW bet all those big clubs across Europe would like to have a youth policy like the English. Its just that government policy prevented them from signing contracts with youngster like the English whistling.gif

This post has been edited by vreis: Sep 11 2009, 11:49 AM
verx
post Sep 11 2009, 12:00 PM

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QUOTE(vreis @ Sep 11 2009, 11:46 AM)
How much do you compensate them when there's no contract involve. What is the amount that seems fair to both sides? Reluctant seller will quote sky high price while buyer will find ways to nick those youngster for free since there's practically no contract binding them. What if seller determine to hang into their prized asset & buyer determine to get their hands on the said asset while the asset himself determine to move on to better things? Do we need to consider the opinion of the youngster since there's no contract? If not, then buyer & seller is equally guilty for treating the youngster like a piece of meat.

Trouble is determining the amount of compensation. For pro, their transfer fee mostly based on their income/year. If this approach are used to compensate those small clubs, it's practically nil.
On the other hand, do the buyer just pay whatever the figure quoted by seller? It's a no brainer since, why would they pay the seller asking price when they know they can get it for far less if its decided by tribunal.
In such cases once the youngster wants a move, the seller can't really hang onto them. But you're right, it's difficult to quantify what would be an adequate fee. Which is why there needs to be legal guidelines drawn up whether by FIFA or by some other body. Most of these cases are decided by a tribunal currently and in most cases the fee was accepted by the seller. Chelsea's case is unique because the player had signed a pre-agreement. Chelsea will argue that such an agreement shouldn't be legally binding. It's interesting FIFA has chosen to uphold it. Might open a new can of worms.

QUOTE
BTW bet all those big clubs across Europe would like to have a youth policy like the English. Its just that government policy prevented them from signing contracts with youngster like the English whistling.gif
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Well if they were able to sign players on pro contracts as early as the English there wouldn't be any problems would there whistling.gif
But if the cases were reversed I definitely can see the same outcry happening. Clubs at the end of the day will only look after their interests.

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