6000 years ago most of us were destined to be slave to death...Some were destined to be KING...Determinism or Free will is better off to explain this phenomena???

this sounds like a text book question

pardon??? So what is ur opinion??? U believed in free will or determinism which religion usually claim to be true???
Is sound kinda absurb for me to believe determinism...And do u understand the meaning of determinism or free will??

please elaborate for the sake of discussion, your definition of determinism and free will

Determinism : Determinism is the view that every event, including human cognition, behavior, decision, and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences.[1] With numerous historical debates, many varieties and philosophical positions on the subject of determinism exist from traditions throughout the world.
Simple explanation: U are destined to do something, nothing will change..IF u could somehow know u going to die at age 100, nothing will change the fact



Free will:The question of free will is whether, and in what sense, rational agents exercise control over their actions and decisions. Addressing this question requires understanding the relationship between freedom and cause, and determining whether the laws of nature are causally deterministic. The various philosophical positions taken differ on whether all events are determined or not — determinism versus indeterminism — and also on whether freedom can coexist with determinism or not — compatibilism versus incompatibilism. So, for instance, 'hard determinists' argue that the universe is deterministic, and that this makes free will impossible.
The principle of free will has religious, ethical, and scientific implications. For example, in the religious realm, free will may imply that an omnipotent divinity does not assert its power over individual will and choices. In ethics, it may imply that individuals can be held morally accountable for their actions. In the scientific realm, it may imply that the actions of the body, including the brain and the mind, are not wholly determined by physical causality. The question of free will has been a central issue since the beginning of philosophical thought.
Simple explanation: ur destiny is on ur hand, ur fate cannot be determined by something

i believe in free will...
no one can control yr future and neither should one let others or things(e.g. horoscopes,fate etc) to control it.

This post has been edited by vivienne85: Aug 3 2009, 12:47 PM

Agree, therefore we are not more a slave because we fight back...therefore democracy existed...no one believe a person is destined to be leader will be leader forever...every decision we make count

yup..
cos one may be a king today and tomorrow he will be slave or a pauper when his country is conquered by invading forces..

No. its not a destiny for kings to be kings. 6000 years ago... majority of humans might be simple minded and dumb, but there should be some are born with exceptional EQ/IQ. Those are the people who move up the ranks.. and conjuring up schemes that make the majority of the easily-influenced humans feel awed with them and treat them like God and kings. BUt of course , there are still exceptional people who are kind and belenovent that becomes good kings and rulers.


In modern times, the same pattern emerges... but luckily MOST of the humans are born, and encouraged to get proper education, which makes us good in deciding our destiny and future, and who should lead us . modernity brought a system where no single person can easily "enslave" the rest, unless of course, they are willingly/forcefully to be enslaved and have their mind completely shut off. That is what those dictators are doing, is to keep the people under them to be as simple minded as possible, and closing all possible channels for knowledge outside their own country/domain, just like 6000 years ago. Anyway, the same happens on a small scale everywhere, from a simple as a bogus medium/monk trying to control the believers by putting curse on them if their dunt part with their $$/daughter, to Ayah Pin wannabee.

The rest of the high EQ/IQ people are having enough self conscience to channel their talent somewhere else.. like working and perform researches benefinal to mankind. ONly those with bad/selfish motive resort to evil schemes to control the masses.

This post has been edited by alanyuppie: Aug 3 2009, 01:13 PM

Free will or determinism in which aspect of my life?

Whether or not I can speak? Whether or not I can drink water? Whether or not I can think in a certain manner? Whether or not I can believe in a certain philosophical or religious teaching? Or all of them?

i believe in free will.
i believe that whenever u do something, something else will happen as a result of the thing that has been done. a butterfly effect .

some people wants to rule other people

some people just wants to be ruled

regardless, everyone prefers orderness and hopefully fairness



once in a while ... there some people are born like a key that moves the world

determinism/freewill is an an illusion caused by time. as you cannot go back to change an action, you never know if that action is pre-ordained or as a result of your choice.

ie, there is an objective question that i randomly guessed A after a coin toss. i will never know if i am meant to choose A (determinism) or i am voluntarily choosing A or randomly choosing A (free will)

Hmm.

From the definition here, 'determinism' seems to have the same concept as 'destiny'.

In Islam, we must believe in 'destiny'. That means what has happened, is already being destined by God.
We donno our destiny, we just do by 'free will' and the end results is actually our 'destiny'.

All i can believe is that God know where we're heading, but doesnt mean a word of prophet or fortune teller is reliable....Well, i prefer both of them

If you're talking about the religious aspect of free-will versus determinism...

Some say what we do has already been destined by God. Therefore, if what we do has been destined by God, then God cannot blame us for our sins because He is the one who has decided our actions, including sinning.

Some other people say that God gave us a free will, whereby we will have to follow what God wants us to do through the words of a prophet and/or a holy book and that we will be judged according to how we live our lives in the end times. Some say that a problem with that idea is that if it is true, then we should not be judged by people because God will judge us and since nobody is perfect, people should not judge us.

The debate for this is still on-going.

I'm thinking.... about the Matrix,
You can see it, hear it, feel it, eat and taste it, so is it real?

Now, let's say everything is predetermined. So you get up in the morning because it's already predetermined, then you get hungry because of it's predetermined you'll feel hungry at exactly 7:15AM this morning, and you choose to eat roti canai cause you happen to fancy so today, but little did you know it's actually predetermined you'll choose it... so...

Well I believe in knowledge above all else, so I believe there's an explanation for everything. Thus unless there's a matrix like entity, free will is simply what I'll side with.

agree

Well, u maybe right to question:

Therefore, if what we do has been destined by God, then God cannot blame us for our sins because He is the one who has decided our actions, including sinning.

I believe that God is just. The check and balance of our life will remain the same even if we end up in Hell.

If we are destined to be in hell because of our wrong doings in our lives, it's gonna be a fair game because God already gives us the pleasure when we commit all the wrong doings.

If we study how the prophets before this such as Moses, Jesus and Mohammad, though they will end up in paradise, but look at their lifetime. They suffered so much from the oppositions.

given your logic on the last paragraph.

Christians thinks Jesus is god, Muslims thinks Jesus is not.

There goes your suffering due to opposition.

Who's going to hell?

Why not try to think outside the box, non of them is right or wrong...GOd is just, and then what for he allowed so many religions existed in this world??? Why not strike the lighting destroyed the temple or chambers???

My theory is because it has something to do with truth...absolute truth...The absolute truth is that there isnt any absolute truth...If it does existed, no man on earth is near to the absolute truth...So u think christ is the best and the rigtheous??? The world doubt would doubt it

IF we certain of something, will truth still existed?? For me truth can neither be secure or proven like fact did, like science did...Truth tell how it should be , while fact tell what it is...Sometimes i think truth had similarities with health...If truth had a name for it and ppl could name it, non of us would drift away from it...i guess exercise require to maintain a good health....Or we could call it truth...What would u maintain if u know u just going to die at age 100??? Would u still maintain ur health or believe??

Uncertainty is the beginning of truth i believed, Uncertainty provide us the capacity to lie about something, as well for us to seek truth of something....Truth is the beauty in the world of uncertainty, Lies Too....Truth might as well hurt the most, Lies too....That my opinion

Yes none of them is right nor wrong for they have their own rights to their own believes. There are many conclusions as to why God allowed so many religions to exist in this world and the most common one IMHO is the fact that He has decided that humans should have their own free will to do anything they want with no intervention from Himself. There is a long story to that but that's not the question here.

Free will is a right on this earth of ours and whether what we do in life is considered right or wrong will be judged by the law that we humans created to maintain order in society. The truth ur speaking about...no one knows except the Almighty one...if u so choose to believe there is a bigger force out there than us humans.

So...for the believers...u will only know the truth after u have crossed the line between life and death and for the non-believers...well I guess life just ends there n then for u.

So what about your girlfriend, sister, daughter, mother or any lady who is destined to be a victim of sexual assault and killed, worse still, they are comatose and you have to take care of them, so you are being assigned with a task by god. Would you say the same or wonder what sin they have committed to deserve such a brutal end? If life is prearranged, then what is the point of living, i rather kill myself than to pleasure god, or maybe I am destined to defy god and it is my mission to strip religion, but then I will be labeled communist.

This post has been edited by 3dassets: Aug 11 2009, 10:26 AM

its quite interesting to note on this god theory, while im not here to dismiss god theres one issue about sins and where you should go that bugs me.

i see that you are islamic but im sure islam has such similar roots, in the catholic church we are thought that there are the 7 sins these sins are

"Lust", "Gluttony", "Greed", "Sloth", "Wrath", "Envy", and "Pride"

i pick these cause they are easy and basic, the explanations of it are direct and simplistic.

however when one looks at these sins and the world, id say most of us are going to hell. all of them are attributes of human nature, the basic construct of what makes us. take note that when we go to uni hold a laptop in our hand its called greed, when we see our pretty friend and hope we are similar its envy, when we parade our results its pride.

all these things happen in a span of a human life, in fact id think all lyners are subjects to greed at least.

the argument most people use against this is that they go defensive and take a higher relevance as a benchmark, he has more thus he is more of a sinner. then again when one looks at pure stats one knows that we are already the top % of the world.

so if we are to base that as a sin, me you and everyone in this thread will meet luci.

rather interesting no?

Free Will or Determinism

The word Determinism makes me wonder whether is there solid evidence for the theory that human choice is not free, but is decided by past events.

First of all, i am not a religious nor anti religious person. Call me a free thinker. If heaven is build to accommodate God's believer/followers and Hell is for those that commit sin which are judge by thier respective God, then i wonder where would people like me would end up be?

Next, is the word Fate carrries the same effect in Determinism?
Personally I think yea, whoever that came across in our life regarless parents friends lovers or enemies are predetermine. These sort of relationship happend spontaneously and is seriously immature to bring it as a matter of free will.

In contary however, i believed consequences are the result of human free will and not determinism. The golden rule is never blame other for ur mistakes. Also, dont u think human are selfish when they only want to take the credits but if there occured to be wrongs they would just point at others.

haha...your second paragraph sounds very much like Malaysia....we are born and its compulsory for us to get proper education, but still we are enslaved by the BN....with proper education, properly enlightened, proper exposure (of mass media), freedom of democracy...we are not simple minded like 6000 years ago...but yet we are still being shut off under the realm of the Barisan....

i believe in karma. how else can u explain our very presence ? why are we born rich? why are they born poor? why was he murdered by that particular dude? how did i end up being the child of my parents?

If you preclude the existence of a deity of any kind, isn't this an issue of Physics, i.e. whether you stick to the Copenhagen interpretation or not?

cheers

TS, you'll be surprised on how little control you have on the choices you make, whether it is because of free will or determinism.

Causality seems to be a more proper answer.

This argument is an on-off topic in the Believers vs Non-Believers thread in RWI. The discussion is lengthy but to sum it up, I believe that... We practices the free will that God gave us, but to God we are already predestined.

Some things are bound to happen, as denoted by what we call fate, and some things we have for the most, control over them. Personally I can't really believe fully in fate, because that would mean everything is predetermined and orchestrated from the start.

For the most, C-Note is right. Karma does exist to a certain extent, whether we realise it or not, but then when and where the seeds one sows ripen is hard to tell, as evident in the many doings and things that occur now. If we are to speak with a deity in the picture, wouldn't it be cruel to have our entire lives predestined and set? That, in its sense is a wrongdoing already because it robs people of free will, or our freedom to choose what we may and may not do.

So in a nutshell, certain aspects are yes, fated, and others not at all. But I could be wrong.

I believe that all the events that happen in the world are just like domino effect. Event C happens because of Event B, and Event B happens because of Event A. Everything is predetermined. Determinism that is. This is because there is nothing in the world that happens without a reason. You can always find a reason, or cause, for all events happen in the world. When everything happens based on cause and effect, it is basically just a chain of causes and effects.

Does it matter?

Whether you have free will or not is irrelevant because you will always feel like your choices were ones you made. You will always feel like you have the choice, so effectively, there is free will, even though it may be an illusion.

This is tricky...
Say we have someone young dying from cancer and everyone around will say, 'have faith in God. he has better plan for the child blah blah blah' In other words, it is the child's destiny to die young because God said so.

Then we have this crazy guy who rape and killed countless young girls. He said, 'God tell me to do it.' But everyone else would say, 'cut the crap...you choose to kill. you choose to rape.' Then, a crime becomes freewill.

Ok..i know some will go on and say its not God, its Satan..but juz think about it.

I believe that the 2, fate/destiny and freewill go hand in hand, and are at equal measure.

It is believed by some that fate/destiny is only predetermined to a few variables. If I remember the words of a preacher, only your Rezeki or basically your blessings, Death and Partner have been pre-determined. I believe it to a certain level, but then we have the capacity to question it further, example, Death - What if we decide to commit suicide, and this is one of the greatest unforgivable sin, and that we chose to make this decision, yet we are punished for it, and for argument sake, that it was FATED that we made that decision. Is this where the 2 converge? Do we get punished because Fate decided it, or do we get punished because we made the decision from Freewill?

A forumer mentioned it no? Is it that God had already known that we are to sin, and that before we come out to this world, that we've already been predestined to walk through the fires off hell? Pretty depressing, no?

I believe that theres 2 end of the spectrums, Fate and Freewill, and I hardly believe that we have to choose one or the other. The beauty in life is that we have choices, and we make those choices. Its finding the grey area between the 2 ends of the spectrum that is the key. Its just human tendency to point finger at Fate when we have nothing else to blame.

Karma too may have a role, but we have seen time again, ruthless forces and individuals who may have coloured our history books, or walk in the path of our lives today, or even politicians who set unfair policies and govern our lives in an injustice manner, who are doing what they do and still reap the riches of their deeds, and we still feel hard done by. But i guess thats another topic altogether.

Ive always told my friends, The Only Power That Can Match That Of Destiny Is Freewill. Cos Freewill has no limitations, and is infinite. The boundaries are only created by you.

I would like to add that we must remember that there is no such thing as coincidence in this universe.

Everything, right form the beginning is based on a series of cause and effect.
Some might say," ok since everything is cause and effect then how do you explain the creation of the universe if it wasn't the cause of god?"

I would then ask, 'How would you explain the creation of god?'

Why can't we accept that the universe is natural, and that we are in fact part of it. Energy is the source of everything(as far as we know today). It is what this universe is built upon and continues to operate by. The soul is energy, in transforms into form and out of form. As we know, energy cannot be created or destroy, only transformed.

This is how I view life, as an everlasting cycle.

Back in days when religion was formed, its purpose was to promote harmony and a peaceful living. These are what the prophets and gurus of the olden times preached. Religion itself is just a bunch of moral stories put together. However much like any other story told time and time again, the context changes each time. The stories often adapt to local culture in order for the people to better affiliate themselves with it.

Worst, stories get manipulated for personal gains such as control and influence. This is when religion started becoming a political tool, much of what it is today.
(sorry to be out of topic but i just had to state my point of view)

To believe in free will or determinism is a rather personal choice. I strongly believe in Free Will and that no one can have control of who or what you become, other than YOU yourself.

We are the architects of our lives.
Bob Proctor (The Secret)

Speaking of the film 'The Secret', I strongly urge you to watch it or read the book. It best describes how every event that occurs around us is in fact triggered by an action, in this case thought. It elaborates on the law of attraction, the power of the mind and thought manifestation. Again, this relates to the fundamental laws of the universe, action-reaction.

I think, for the sake of argument, that Free Will should be define as choices made by one conscious being (Mr. A) without any other conscious beings (Mr. B et al.) consciously and willingly taking actions to affect Mr. A's choice.

For example, the solution of Dutchmen pissing out of aim in urinals and wetting the general area being solved by authorities painting a black dot on the urinal, prompting the Dutch pissers to unconsciously aim at it. This, in a sense, abrogates their Free Will since there are other beings consciously guiding them to a choice.

However, there is the issue of inevitability. A whole slew of events can lead to near inevitable choices (that is, a high probability of being taken). E.g. a host of actions taken by other individuals giving you little choice but to take a certain action. This may not be triggered by any single individual's conscious actions to influence your choice, but nonetheless the confluence of many other choices leads you into near-inevitability.

One may rightly question whether this constitutes Free Will or not.

cheers

You know that we are all part of the universe right, we're all matter, we're made up particles, and all particles are bound by the laws of physics.

Now, our brain, is it us controlling it, or is it just particles that are set in motion, following the laws of physics? Do we even have control of our brain? If we don't, then do we have free will at all?

Simple: They co-exist. They affect each other equally.

Free Will.
S'where deep in the recess of my mind lurks the principle of Heisenberg Uncertainty.
Can some1 tells me why?

Matrix is a movie labeled Fiction

free will exists,
but you are "wrong" imho, that no one can control your future,
everybody is actually modifying, affecting, controlling another human destiny, choices, everyday,minute and second.

just as you reading what i am posting right now,i somehow already change your destiny.
if you are not spending the little few minutes to read, maybe you doing something else, and maybe you plan to meet with ur friend in oldtown, then somehow late by few minutes because of reading what i posted, then somehow this few minutes could change your friend entire life. and so on. this is all chain reaction and connected.

so, i could actually change this world and i am changing it daily. (from my point of view).

---

Added on October 16, 2009, 5:58 amto above red colored part.
the very dangerous part of this idea is, by believing God is just, it is actually a "perception" of human thoughts.
and subscribing that idea also mean, whatever God did, it would be just no matter what.

from my interview with God believer people, the ultimate idea that they usually hold is, "God is just".
and they need to hold this idea really tight otherwise, probably they wouldn't believe in God either.

but little did they knew, it is just a weak perception that they hold.

This post has been edited by sleepsleep: Oct 16 2009, 05:58 AM

Free Will or Determinism has been seriously debated for the last few centuries. Human being has been trying to understand it from the two most influential systems, i.e. sciences and religions

Sciences
In newtonian mechanics, every object moves along a trajectory that is uniquely "determined' by the forces which act on it. It permits, in principle, the "accurate prediction of everything that will ever happen" on the basis of what can be known at one instant.

An example to this is the snooker game. The rigid network of cause and effect is deterministic.

Religions
Philosopher's argument on onmiscient and onmipotent deity against free will is they are self-contradictory.

- If god has a plan for the universe, which is implemented as part of his will, why does he not simply create a deterministic universe in which the goal of the plan is inevitable?

Moving towards a planned goal for the universe means determinism.

- If the universe is indeterministic (free will running), however, does that not mean that god's power is limited because of his inability to predict or decide what the outcome will be?

In order for onmiscient and onmipotent to hold true, the universe must be deterministic.

When one person says "I have free will to decide if I want to have tea or coffee for breakfast", he forget the fact that the so called free will hold true only if the larger system, the supply of the tea or coffee is always there. When the waiter says "I am sorry, we are running out of coffee, what about a good Earl Grey tea to complement your breakfast?". That leave us little choice I am afraid.

However, one can argue that he can go down town to buy the coffee in a shop and run back to the restaurant. The point here is our free will is inevitable bound by the constraint of the larger system.

Imagine the following cases:
- A gunner is pointing a gun to one's head. "Your live or your money? You have free will to decide, I give you 30 seconds"
- Polices block one of the road and tell the car drivers. "You all shouldn't proceed in using this road, you have free will to decide, however whoever cross this road will get a bullet".

We seem forced to the paradoxical conclusion that freedom of choice is actually a restriction that we suffer, namely, our inability to know the future........

Our inability of knowing what next give us an illusion that this universe is full of free will......

My understanding so far;

Free Will within Determinism.

Good one. Even free will within determinism is still determinism.

In omniscient and omnipotent pespective, it could be argued that the god is free to relinquish some of his power if he wishes. However there is one logical problem, for omnipotent deity to relinquish some power and give us free will to act "against" his plan causing a new outcome that is not being predicted and decided earlier. After all, this could not be a surprise to the omnicscient and omnipotent deity as he already knew it before you do it.

If one have to choose which one, then yes I'd say determinism.

Having said that, I still like to say it like I said it earlier. This is because there are 'simpletons' out there who simply stop doing things with the excuse of "it doesn't matter! all have been determine".

As far as I know, everything was determine at one point. Closest parallel that I can think of atm is game programming. Everything in a game is coded even the sand-box concept one. You can do anything within the game rules. The different between determinism in games and determinism in life and the universe as we know it now is the determinism of life and the universe is immense it gives us the feeling of FULL free will.

no they stop doing things because they are meant be be lazy bums. those that keep on striving are meant to be the opposite

i`ll give you different angle....


1) taoism.. call it bazi.. destiny....
2) buddhism.. call it karma from pass life
3) christian/islam call it god`s will or intention for human...
4) simply put, just chances...all things in this life happen to be chances... and we all constantly affecting each other... we are all ONE... there are no absolute you or me

I believe that free will is not opposed to determinism. I believe that free will is determinism in a sense that we are free to choose whatever we will but that choice is predetermined not by a God, but by the very first few particles that created our Universe. I maybe thinking of this in a layman's mentality, but i believe that when the Big Bang occurred, the trajectory of expansion of each individual particle of the universe was determined mathematically. Theory of conservation of energy, resolution of forces. Given the trajectory of the 2 particles that collided, this is the exact way the universe is meant to be.
Dinosaurs, humans and animals don't play out of this either. Because of the butterfly effect, it may be hard to agree with determinism, but it's all like a perfectly tuned mechanical clockwork. A petal was meant to fall on the lake. A man was meant to see it when he was 3 years old. That affects his mentality like a pivot, as all things do when one is young. Based on previous experiences, he draws conclusions and perceptions. This affects how he reacts to something else in a specific manner which in turn affects something else in a specific manner. It goes on and on, all predetermined even before he was born. I am meant to type this word here, just as you are meant to read (or not read) it. Grim as it seems, i believe everything is mathematically bound and is therefore precise. Our free will is actually determined by our minds, which are shaped by experiences and memories, are they not?

I have done no research on this, but based on that guy talking on one of those channels, i believe it correlates with the theory of everything? The one formula that summarizes our entire universe, physical and even social